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[Sarah Foster] This is an oral history Shukuntla Bhaya conducted by Sarah Foster at the law offices of Dorshow, Pasquale, Krawitz & Bhaya in Bear Delaware on May tenth,

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2012 at approximately 10:13 AM. [Shukuntla Bhaya] Hello my name is Shukuntla Bhaya. I had burgers for dinner

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last night. (Laughs) [SF] I would like to get some background information. Where did you grow up? And what was it like growing up as a girl? [SB] Well, I grew up in several places.

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I was born in New York City, in 1960. My parents immigrated from India, So, they had the traditional immigration story.

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I was the firstborn. Then, then went to Central, I guess it's called central New Jersey in New Brunswick and grew up

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there really from ages, age 6 or 7 to 12. And I consider that a real building block of experience

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in that, in those years. I grew up in a predominantly Jewish neighborhood and we're Indian, East Indian,

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and we learned a lot of the culture is very similar between the Jewish traditions and in terms of family and celebration.

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So that, so we actually, my sister thought she was a Hindu Jew, (laughs) so, so and I also went to school, which was desegregated at the time.

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When we came to Delaware, with much resistance for my part. My dad got relocated. It was 1972, I was about 12 years old

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and started 8th grade in Delaware. And so, my latter part of my childhood was in Delaware, came to a very different culture.

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Not many Jewish people, and the schools were not desegregated yet. So it was predominantly white, So it was a, and the demographics

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were just neighborhood schools. So at that time, there really wasn't a mixed economic demographics

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in the neighborhood. Grew up in North Wilmington, so it was a very different experience. And found myself in 1977.

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I graduated in 1978, so in 1977 involved in Concord High School, being involved in the helping to implement de-segregation in Delaware,

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which went into effect in 1979. I share all this, because the initial Brown v. Board of Education case was Delaware,

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was part of the initial school, states. That was in 1964, or whatever. So it took until 1979.

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So it was a very... With that background growing up as a girl, was focused on Delaware.

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I think when you're that age, when you're 12 years old, is when all the hormones kick in and you realize what differences

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there may be because you're a girl. For me, the biggest difference growing up as a girl was that I grew up in

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a very traditional family. My father was very strict. I have two other sisters and one brother, and the boy got to do everything.

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Our freedom of movement was very restricted. Had been in when the sun set, very... limitations like no dating.

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So the whole, the freedom of movement was really, really limited. However, in our family, education was not a basis

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to discriminate. In education, no matter, a boy or a girl, you have the same education. So that was really good.

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However, in terms of your social activities, it was limited. Also, my mother had it tough. My father was very, very,

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very traditional in terms. And she was a stay-at-home mom, very active in our schools. And I ran for student council

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stuff and always helped with the artwork and stuff like that. Very active mom. But the... But the daughters had more freedom

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even than my mom. So I grew up in that, seeing that injustice. And I share that because I think that was my...

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that experience may... caused me to be really attracted to the Women's Studies. Language was given to me,

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about what I was experiencing and it was okay to channel the anger and a certain way, from that experience. So supportive parents in

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terms of "Do you whatever you want to do." when it comes to education and a job. But you have a role as a woman. So that's what it was like growing up as a girl.

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[SF] So you talked a little bit about your schooling. What interests did you have? And how do you think that led you to what you studied in college? [SB] Well, I was always interested in politics. Always. I don't know those out there

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who are looking, reading this, seeing this, who remember Watergate scandal with Nixon. I was reading everything about it. People... I just was taken to that.

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And I believe in... My model in life, even as a child, is "If you don't like what's happening, fix it! Get involved!"

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And so that was my... I guess I was born with that approach. So, and politics is a... I didn't get involved in local politics as a

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pre-college, but I liked studying it. It was more of a thinker than I doer back then. So, I guess that's what drew

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me to Political Science. I really wanted to be a Philosophy major, but my mom wouldn't let me. She said "No jobs." But I don't know why she' thought Political Science

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would be a job. And there was always Law School in the background too. To be able

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to speak for those who are invisible in our community and make sure that their dignity is preserved.

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So that's what I was drawn to. And that was, you know, I was like Women's Rights issues. There was I don't know

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if those of you watching this, remember the Billy Riggs and... Riggs and Billie Jean King tennis match.

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The first male-female big tennis match! It was the men against the women. I think it was Bobby Riggs. And that was a big thing.

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Can... women in sports. Because, Title IX was just being enforced in a lot of schools

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at that time, when I was in high school. So it was different. [SF] So when did you start attending the University? And why did you pick Delaware? [SB] Well, 1978 to 1982 is when I, my time at University of Delaware.

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Why did I pick University of Delaware? Well, I was going to go to Rutgers in New Jersey, because of the Political Science program.

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But I... because I grew up in that... grew up near that university... I grew up around there too in New Jersey.

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But I was like, I think as a first child, of four, to go to college, I was like, "Seems kind of far away from home."

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I think a little bit like "Where do I go to just relax?" because kind of city-ish. And then I really thought the cost to go out of state versus in-state

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was just ridiculous. Ridiculous, even back then. And I just couldn't do that to my family. And Delaware was, I mean, it's different now.

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You don't go to different schools and interview and that sort of stuff. None of that was going on. I said "So I can go to Delaware. What's wrong with Delaware?"

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So I went to Delaware by default, because I felt bad for my dad, because to support four of us to go to school, because there's

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only five years between myself and the youngest child in our family. So, you know, I didn't want to do that to my parents. I took a course.

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I can't remember if it was the first semester of freshman year, or the second semester freshman year. And I think the course was

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with Dr. Sandra Harding. And I loved it. I love the... I loved how she taught. It was interactive as opposed to being dictated to

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It was... The subject matter was began to give me a historical and psychological and political context

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of my childhood. Explaining, understanding misogyny, putting words, being able to channel the... that hidden anger in a constructive way.

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Also, I began to feel less different. I felt very different growing up as a child. Boys never liked me

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and I never understood why. Later found out why. But growing up then never connected that and it was,

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I was always too academic. So there I felt like, "Oh! there's more people like me." The academics were valued.

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And Professor, Dr. Harding just took me in. I mean, she saw... she must have seen this. I was willing to learn so much.

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So that was part of it. At the same time, I was meeting people on campus who were involved with Women's Rights issues,

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anti-apartheid issues. And I liked these people, and we had a lot more in common. And they threw great parties and so...

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we just kind of all fell on the same plate. It felt together. And that's how I got into it. And we can thank the

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women's field hockey coach for not picking me on their team. Because when I wasn't, I wanted to be.

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I was a field hockey player in high school. I tried out for the team and when I didn't get in the team, I got kicked out

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because I wasn't good enough. I turned to some other thing. So that's what I was drawn to. So I got more involved in the politics.

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So we can thank the coaches for directing me there. (Laughs) [SF] So what would you say your feminist "lightbulb" moment was? [SB] Feminist lightbulb moment. Hmmm.

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Well, I think it was... was I think it was the second semester of freshman year. Maybe I didn't

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even know the lightbulb was on yet. But as I think back, that's when there was a lot of activity, a lot of newness, and that's when all of it began.

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So sophomore year definitely. So I started taking more courses, started getting more, getting more involved in the, what I call the left groups.

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There was a women's group. I forget what was called before, but when I got involved into it and then after a year or so or two,

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which we changed it in its mission to Women Working for Change. So that was another group experience

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that the lightbulb got stronger. It was a great, great experience. You know, we're talking about, it's not the theory.

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It's the everyday stuff where we're talking about what our life experiences are. It is community, it's not only academic-based, but community-based.

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So there are people who, women who were single moms working in predominantly male-oriented fields, because

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that's where the best paying jobs were. Not being able to spend as much time with your kids, and having to deal with that, and dealing

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with the discrimination in the workplace and how they were tested. Dealing with women who were survivors of incest or domestic violence,

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dealing with just... and then students, just some of the issues that college young women deal with. Safety issues on campus.

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And at the same time, being able to get together and have a kind of sisterhood bond and laugh and, and have potluck food,

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and a safe place to BE and take risk in sharing ideas without being judged or graded. That was incredible and to... the change is

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not only to change in terms of institutional change, but change within oneself. And when you change within oneself,

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you change the people that you love, your family and who you're in contact with. And it was really good. It was really...

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Because that's what we said was really We're not here just to talk and read poems and talk about that and stuff like that.

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That's important, but we're here also to make a change. We want to make institutional change. So we had, we organized a,

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we had "take back the night" marches. We did some teaching, especially when Reagan got re-elected, about how women... We were really afraid about

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women's reproductive freedom being curtailed under his administration. We found that a lot of people, especially women,

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were taking for granted Roe v. Wade, the right to choose whether to, you know, for the, on the abortion issue. Also, there's always stuff going

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onto limit education on reproductive choices and stuff in schools and even on campus. So we tried to get

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the resident life to incorporate this stuff. So that was... That's what we did, and we had a whole big meeting

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with the administration about how they're not doing enough about safety on campus. And we challenged the notion

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that you have the way to solve the problem is to have male escorts. That seems to defeat the purpose. I mean, there was nothing wrong with it, however,

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to say that's exclusive and a women may not want a male escort especially, they were attacked. And what that means.

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It was an education process. So that was my... that was our first, my first experience of really Forcing

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the administration to be held accountable. And so that was kind of fun In doing that. [SF] What was the outcome of that situation? [SB] I think they became more aware

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and more sensitive. Was there real change? No. Because it's still the same problems today that exist.

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But it's a seed that plants in people's minds. You know, so it made... What it did was, is made more people aware

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on campus what the problems were, what the unsafe areas were, because you had those really, and I'm certain they still have those.

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The campus is beautiful. I love University of Delaware campus. Love South and North campus. I lived on South campus.

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And the, it's that light doesn't project much there. So it's not just about lighting, it's about other things too.

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So it's just... I think they did have some call... they put some call lines, and they never used to have that before.

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So I guess some change happened. You're not there long enough to see if the change really happens. [SF] Well, now we have those emergency lights. [SB] Oh you do! Okay. [SF] Now I'm curious if that connects to this.

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[SB] I've no idea. [SF] Possibly. [SB] Possibly, possibly. [SF] So could you talk a little bit about your education? Your area of focus? And how you see feminist advocacy in academics connecting? [SB] Well, that's a lot. You have to break that down for me.

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[SF] So, talk about your area of focus when you were studying. [SB] At Delaware? Well, I double-majored in Poli Sci and Philosophy, and minored in Women's Studies.

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But if you really looked at my transcript, It would be a Women's Studies major, if there was a major back then.

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A lot of political theory, and that was my focus. And the focus was to take that political theory, and then

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somehow transform it into... apply it for change. Didn't really do a lot of that. In, in... I feel like that... I feel like the real change I'm making is now

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as a lawyer. A lot of change. As a lawyer, I've had the privilege to to participate in some real like, REAL institutional changes

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in the State of Delaware. So, but I'd credit that to the education that I got and experience at University of Delaware.

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More so than law school. Law School was just a, just a next step, a tool. But that was not the paradigm. That was not the, to use

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the words of Dr. Harding, "epistemological framework" in how I approach things. So that, so that was,

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that was the focus. A lot of understanding is "How do you do research?" Focus a lot of energy in debunking the myth that

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there are objective... truly objective criteria out there to understand human behavior and to make change.

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It's an interactive process. And, and as you go about it, you as a person who's doing the research or trying to make the change,

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you're changing also. And I could tell you I was very left, very left when I was at University of Delaware. I'm sure people would've labeled me

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with labels as a separate, as a lesbian separatist. I came out in college. It was probably my second... it all happened

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second semester of freshman year and going to all that stuff happening there. And I really was very left that way. And as I grew older,

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I don't, I don't say I'm a lesbian separatist any more. I'm a feminist. I've never, I know other people don't like

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to call themselves feminists, but very proud of that. And I do think labels are important. I know people don't, but I

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do think labels are important. Some people don't. It's not dispositive, but it's important because

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when you're talking to someone, you get a sense of where they're coming from. It's like in Delaware. If you're from Delaware, first question they ask:

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Where did you go to high school? First question, and that tells you something. And it tells you, that I'm feminist,

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tells you something. And it will either... It's code for "You better treat me a certain way, or I'm going to hold you accountable." Because I don't

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want to be subjected to certain treatment. That's why I think that that's important. That's why think being called a Democrat, or Republican is important too.

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It doesn't mean that the issues cross, but it's kind of tells you what your framework is. It's a starting point.

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So some of my friends back there, they looked at what I was doing now and they may think, oh, I've kind of been co-opted.

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Because I work within the system much more than ever before. Being a lawyer, you're in the system. There's no way of getting around it.

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Being a lawyer makes you somewhat conservative too, and I say that to all those who think about law school. It does happen.

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But before you know it, it's happened. And I think also being older and having bills to pay and family to take care of. Those are things there.

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So, but as I tell other people when I was in college, I could be, it was okay to be, you know, left.

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It was okay to do major civil disobedience. It was okay to risk getting picked up and going to jail if you want to do a protest.

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It was okay to go to DC and do all the marches there. What did I have to lose? You're a kid, what do you lose? And I'll say to all the young people out there,

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and even the people who choose to continue that path. In order for change to be made, we must have civil disobedience.

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We must have Occupy, whatever it's called, Occupy Delaware, Occupy Wall Street. We must have that, because until there's

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a mass of that comes out of discontentment, of that anger, of forcing. Because that's only way people are going to get forced to come to the table.

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That's not the answer, but it's the door that opens to start the dialogue. And it's needed, I think it's a necessary condition for change to take place.

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Because if you look at every change on the civil rights issue, we always had civil disobedience. In every area. I'm not saying violence.

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Advocacy. You know, peaceful, follow Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King. Peaceful. Being willing to, you know, maybe get arrested,

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if that's what you're willing to do. That is not everybody's cup of tea, but there, but there are, there is... It's necessary, because

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that's only how change begins to take place. [SF] That was all really interesting. [SB] I don't know if it answered the question though. [SF] I was just curious about the student climate. You're talking about disobedience and the teachings and everything. [SF] So what was the campus like? [SB] It was very... It was active.

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I mean, there were all these other different groups. I mean, the... At that time, the University of Delaware,

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the Board of Trustees had investments in South Africa. So there was this group, I would just kind of tagging along,

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but there was a group of people who were protesting, saying "You've got to get out of there. Pull out your investments

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in South Africa because of apartheid." And so that actually was an education for me about the whole apartheid thing. Because I didn't know what was going on.

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Grew up in suburbia, Delaware. You don't learn that stuff in school. So that was really heavy, going in there.

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There was, you know, lots! The critical thinkers were Marxists in those years. So there were some groups

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out there and they're critical thought. I don't know all the stuff they were doing, but that was going on there.

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And then there was a gay and lesbian group. I wasn't really involved in that because, I was... it was the dealing with who I was

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still at the time. I felt safer in the women's group and not in necessarily in the focused gay, lesbian, bisexual at that time,

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gay, lesbian, bisexual group. So there was all that stuff going on there. And affirmative action was happening too.

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And the University was creating councils and then including students to help create affirmative action policies, to help make

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sure women-centered issues are addressed in residence life, health care. I mean, I was privileged to be asked to join

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these different groups to have a voice in the creation of policy. And that wasn't, that wasn't... That was more traditional

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liberal politics, which was good. So, it was there, but was it like the 1960s? And the 1970s with the Vietnam War? No.

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I don't think any of that was going on anywhere in the University of Delaware. It was not like... I don't know how they weren't even during

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then in the Vietnam War, and the protests there. So it was, and we were fighting for Women's Studies too. We were fighting

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for Women's Studies, for more courses. And all talk about make sure... There was inequity in pay. That type of thing. [SF] So as a student, that was visible that these things were going on

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with Women's Studies? The pay inequities? [SB] Only those who were involved. I mean, it wasn't to the... Only, just like anything, those who were involved. Most kids go to college, to get your education, have fun.

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You know, I mean, if there was some... if there were inappropriate behavior by a fraternity, we went out there saying, "You can't do this.

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Boycott this. Don't go to the parties there." That sort of thing. But the other stuff is, you know, that was just people who

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were involved in that. [SF] Could you talk a little bit about the Women's Studies minor? I know you came in 1978 and that's when it was started. What was your experience with the minor? [SB] Well I wished it was a major. I can tell you that when I first started...

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when I was doing... first started taking courses, Delaware, the Women's Studies program, if you will, was in this house somewhere,

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I forget where, on Delaware Avenue. Then it got moved to is it Purnell Hall? No, Smith Hall. Is that Smith? The big building.

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Yeah, it got moved in there, and we got a really nice, big office space. And that gave legitimacy to it, because it wasn't off on some far left,

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no pun intended, but far left corner. But it gave legitimacy to it. And and it was very open. Anyone could come in there

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and talk and just hang out. And that's where I used to hang out actually. And I was

00:29:36.680 - 00:29:45.740

a teaching assistant. So I had a key to the place. I would like study there a lot. It was a great place to study for me.

00:29:45.740 - 00:29:53.630

And I tell the story that when I would turn in... We didn't have computers back then, it was a fancy

00:29:53.630 - 00:30:03.290

typewriter, a Wang or whatever. I'd be typing all these papers by self typing. You know, you had to hand write it out, type it whatever. It had self-correcting tape.

00:30:03.290 - 00:30:11.210

That's why I used it. A little technology preservation here, a history of contexts. And, you know,

00:30:11.210 - 00:30:19.870

I remember Dr. Andersen say, "I recognize this type print." I go, "Yeah, it's the department's typewriter."

00:30:19.870 - 00:30:27.640

"Okay. That's fine." But I think that was good, because it felt... it gave someone like me, I didn't have money and all that stuff.

00:30:27.640 - 00:30:38.680

And you think about it, gave someone like me who loved education, loved the theory, was invested in the department and the benefits,

00:30:38.680 - 00:30:46.000

I got to use the thing and type a paper. And I got to study and do well in school. It's a win-win situation, and I think they liked it,

00:30:46.000 - 00:30:52.670

because it was inclusiveness. It was empowering. It was doing that. So that was part of the philosophy.

00:30:52.670 - 00:31:00.830

It's not separate. So some of the professors were very good. I think people were taking turns being the Chair,

00:31:00.830 - 00:31:07.850

or whatever they called it, of the Women's Studies program at a time. So it was great. It was great to have a minor in doing that.

00:31:07.850 - 00:31:14.570

Because I think it also gives value to the people who were teaching it. The men and the women

00:31:14.570 - 00:31:24.650

who were teaching those courses. And I was very happy to hear it turned to be a major, because that means that

00:31:24.650 - 00:31:35.170

money's coming for the research. And the good research that's being done is only done if someone is willing to fund it. So, and, you know,

00:31:35.170 - 00:31:45.860

the bottom line is a university is a for-profit institution. I know people don't like that, but it is! Let's face it, it is.

00:31:45.860 - 00:31:52.870

and you have to get the donors, you have to get the money to do it. I mean, people go to college so they

00:31:52.870 - 00:31:59.830

can get a job afterwards. So people say, you know, "You have to pick a major that's going to help you get a job afterwards."

00:31:59.830 - 00:32:07.660

Much more so now than I was in college. And I'm working with my partner's granddaughter and she's going to University of Delaware.

00:32:07.660 - 00:32:16.730

And she's going to... I'm saying... I'm trying to coach her. Like, "What do you know?" "What are you going to major in?"

00:32:16.730 - 00:32:22.940

You know, for a job. But what about just the love of learning? That tension's taking place there.

00:32:22.940 - 00:32:28.760

Right now, I'm watching it in her eyes. So, but if you value this program, because you can get

00:32:28.760 - 00:32:39.500

jobs with a Women's Studies major. Same kind of jobs you get with a Political Science major, or a Criminal Justice major. You know, it's there.

00:32:39.500 - 00:32:46.870

I think the value in the minor. What happened was that the minor was people from different disciplines were teaching.

00:32:46.870 - 00:32:55.400

Now with the major, you have an interdisciplinary approach to that major. And there was a debate,

00:32:55.400 - 00:33:05.580

an interesting debate still continues, always continues. Do you have a separate department

00:33:05.580 - 00:33:22.950

for Women's Studies? Or do you have you do say it goes into every department? And I was always for you have it as a major because it's, it needs a home.

00:33:22.950 - 00:33:32.990

And it doesn't mean that in the other courses that are taught in other departments, that some of the teachings

00:33:32.990 - 00:33:42.090

and research is not taught in those courses. But when you have it as a major, or a minor, it is, that is the focus. It's on an ancillary matter.

00:33:42.090 - 00:33:53.700

So that's important. You need a home. You need a home for the research, you need a home for, for the students.

00:33:55.420 - 00:34:06.000

I think we, I think Women's Studies program, unlike a lot of other liberal studies programs, not only provides an education,

00:34:06.000 - 00:34:13.580

provides a home for people who might just feel different. Because that was for me and not understand why.

00:34:13.580 - 00:34:23.480

And there's more like-minded people. And you can find like-minded people outside of the classroom. There must be all kinds

00:34:23.480 - 00:34:31.580

of people that go to University Delaware, but in education you may not. But in a program or department, you may not find as

00:34:31.580 - 00:34:39.620

many like-minded people unless you have a home. So that's why it's important. I think Queer Studies should be a program.

00:34:39.620 - 00:34:55.000

That's why we have Black Studies, Latin American studies, you need homes for groups who have been disenfranchised. [SF] Okay. You talked a little bit about

00:34:55.000 - 00:35:10.160

Women's Studies being a home and begin a teaching assistant. What sorts of activities in Women's Studies and opportunities did it afford? [SB] Well, the teaching assistant was, it was awesome. I mean, I my first

00:35:10.160 - 00:35:22.560

teaching assistant position was actually with Dr. Leslie Goldstein in Political Science, in one of their intro courses. And I loved it, I just loved it.

00:35:22.560 - 00:35:32.100

And then I was like, "Ooo, I really like this." So and then, when an opportunity came for Women's Studies as a senior,

00:35:32.100 - 00:35:41.880

I was able to do that, and I did it with another graduate student, her name was Pam Armstrong. And it was, it was great.

00:35:41.880 - 00:35:51.770

It was great to, and this was like... We're working on the syllabus, we're breaking up in small groups, we had more control of it.

00:35:51.770 - 00:36:04.550

It was just, it was just great experience. I learned... That's when I said, "I think I want to go and be a professor instead of law school."

00:36:04.550 - 00:36:21.200

And another opportunity was I got to do some, co-author an article with Dr. Harding that was... That was kind of neat. And I got to work on research projects.

00:36:21.200 - 00:36:31.970

I got to go to the Brookings Institute with Dr. Harding, and hear the think-tank talk about the... It was fascinating. Hear the think-tank

00:36:31.970 - 00:36:45.340

talk about the moral dilemma, if any, or the, you know, the thought process when a woman chooses, in choosing

00:36:45.340 - 00:36:53.300

whether to keep a child or not. And it was amazing to me. It's like this whole thought process like, you know what, you know,

00:36:53.300 - 00:37:05.330

the science of thinking and knowledge and stuff. And, it amazed me that, how far removed the analysis was.

00:37:05.330 - 00:37:16.930

And having witnessed a high school friend of mine, when she was in high school, she was pregnant and

00:37:16.930 - 00:37:25.750

she did not want to keep the child, did not want to tell her parents. The father knew about it.

00:37:25.750 - 00:37:32.440

And she was too young. And she knew it. It was after 19-- It was 1976, a couple years

00:37:32.440 - 00:37:39.550

after Roe v. Wade. So abortion is now legal. To watch her go through the agony of making

00:37:39.550 - 00:37:50.360

that decision and not have some of the academics, especially the men, understand that it is not,

00:37:50.360 - 00:38:03.560

so many people just don't think about it. And there is a loss. You can talk about when life begins, what-not. But whatever it is, it's still a loss.

00:38:03.560 - 00:38:13.870

It's a human experience that takes place. There was a kind of a disconnect in that, which was as a young, smart, smart-ass kid you're thinking like,

00:38:13.870 - 00:38:23.650

"C'mon people get in the real world." But it was fascinating to see that. Because when you live real-life experiences, you kind of know what people go through.

00:38:23.650 - 00:38:31.620

And, it was a very hard decision for her, and I couldn't... I was sworn to secrecy, never tell anybody and it was hard for me too.

00:38:31.620 - 00:38:43.740

So, but not as hard. But the guy stepped up to the plate and everything was done. And even to this day,

00:38:43.740 - 00:38:53.690

it never leaves you. People I've known, women who have had abortions. Right thing to do, right choice they made, would do it again.

00:38:53.690 - 00:39:04.930

But it was a very difficult decision. But have the experience to see that. I had the experience to work with some professors from different universities.

00:39:04.930 - 00:39:13.590

So it was just great. It was just a great experience and work with graduate students. I got to, I got into graduate courses.

00:39:13.590 - 00:39:21.810

It was very inclusive program that you won't believe this, but we would sit in a circle, in these theory classes,

00:39:21.810 - 00:39:32.880

smoking cigarettes, drinking coffee. I know! We look at it and I'm thinking, "Oh my god! We did all this." And some people complained

00:39:32.880 - 00:39:38.980

about a cigarettes so then, We would take turns, people would take turns doing it. So it wouldn't be so smoke-filled room.

00:39:38.980 - 00:39:49.530

But it was, that was the time then. It was amazing and doing that. So, and have, you know, we're talking theory, but also talking about a theory, okay?

00:39:49.530 - 00:39:59.490

And there were community people in the room. "What is it like in the real world?" And trying to bridge the two together. It was a great experience.

00:39:59.490 - 00:40:10.140

It was like... it was like going to a... going to a... because I thought about transferring to Smith College. and I was having all these positive experiences.

00:40:10.140 - 00:40:18.250

I was like, "Why should I transfer to Smith College when I'm having that kind of education right now?" So I did have a very privileged education.

00:40:18.250 - 00:40:28.930

I had mentors. I mentioned Dr. Harding, Dr. Goldstein, Dr. Andersen. Those are my three big mentors.

00:40:28.930 - 00:40:48.630

You can see, they're different disciplines. So I had the interdisciplinary approach there. So that was great. [SF] In fact, my next question is about mentors.

00:40:48.630 - 00:41:00.520

Is there anything else you want to say about that? [SB] Yeah, well, the only thing I want to say about mentors is that To the young professors,

00:41:00.520 - 00:41:10.780

people who are coming into the field, know that. And I think when you're younger, the connect, you know,

00:41:10.780 - 00:41:19.750

you're not as worried about what's that called? Getting your tenure right away or full professor and publish or perish.

00:41:19.750 - 00:41:33.170

There's all that stuff there. Connecting with the students makes a difference. I mean, if one of the reasons you became a professor is to teach, and have,

00:41:33.170 - 00:41:40.180

and you want to have an impact, you can do it. Don't think you can't. You can.

00:41:40.180 - 00:41:48.220

To those professors I mentioned, and other people who... I know other people's lives have been touched by other professors.

00:41:48.220 - 00:41:57.010

You've touched our lives. And if you're ever thinking, you know, what have I... We all think as we get older, "Have I really made

00:41:57.010 - 00:42:08.140

a difference? Has what I've done mattered? Has it counted?" I can tell you that for Sandra Harding, Maggie Andersen and Leslie Goldstein

00:42:08.140 - 00:42:15.230

and even Pam Armstrong, the graduate student, The, the... You've made a difference in my life.

00:42:15.230 - 00:42:28.890

I would not be who I am today, but for the experience I had. And you taking me into your care. Really into your care

00:42:28.890 - 00:42:37.100

and letting me blossom. And letting me argue with you. You know, letting me argue with you, that was great. That was great.

00:42:37.100 - 00:42:45.540

It was okay to disagree. It's okay to challenge authority. And because that gives you the self-esteem and

00:42:45.540 - 00:42:51.980

confidence to do it in the real world. And you know, and that has made a difference in what I can do today.

00:42:51.980 - 00:43:00.070

I thank you. I'm forever... that I'm indebted and you paid it forward and I pay it forward too. So I try to make a difference in

00:43:00.070 - 00:43:05.260

other people' lives. Whether they want it or not, I'm always trying to be there for people.

00:43:05.260 - 00:43:23.000

And then, those who want it. That's great. So it's... really thank you! [SF] So do you think that your Women's Studies experience was a lot different than your Poli Sci or Philosophy experience? [SB] Yes. Yes.

00:43:23.000 - 00:43:31.150

There were some... the thing was I took a lot of Philosophy courses since Sandra Harding was in Philosophy,

00:43:31.150 - 00:43:42.970

a lot of the Philosophy courses were there. And there was Political Science. Leslie Goldstein was there. I mean, as a department, it was different.

00:43:42.970 - 00:43:52.070

Yeah, it was different. I think when... I think at that time, Women's Studies was considered, "Oh, Women's Studies what's that?"

00:43:52.070 - 00:44:00.610

You know, it's like, "It's a bunch of women bashing men." You know, "Lacks intellectual rigor." and all that, you know.

00:44:00.610 - 00:44:13.300

And so at that moment in history, you had the professors and those who were trying to give value to the department. And we did have... There were students,

00:44:13.300 - 00:44:19.210

there was like Peg Thelen was there. She was about a year older than me. Other people, we were taking courses and

00:44:19.210 - 00:44:25.510

other graduate students working on it and trying to... We had the same common interests, and to prove to the world

00:44:25.510 - 00:44:36.550

that we're just as good as any other department and a PhD in that. Or, you know, getting research grants for

00:44:36.550 - 00:44:43.570

whatever sociological study is needed to be done is just, it's just as valuable and important. It's important if you're

00:44:43.570 - 00:44:50.000

going to make a difference. And it's important if you really believe in affirmative actions. Important if you believe in pay equity.

00:44:50.000 - 00:44:55.880

It's important if you believe in Title IX. All that stuff. I mean, that's the mandate. If you're going to do it, then you study it,

00:44:55.880 - 00:45:04.030

and make sure it's being done right. You know, more and more women are getting into the workforce, How do you balance work, life, and family?

00:45:04.030 - 00:45:13.060

More men are wanting to be active parents. How do you deal with that? So it was,

00:45:13.060 - 00:45:20.560

we weren't a big part of "the system" yet. So we were, it was common then. So there's a story... in that period of history

00:45:20.560 - 00:45:25.630

our interests were common. So there was more, I think camaraderieship than you would see in

00:45:25.630 - 00:45:33.620

already existing institution where the track is to get your full tenure and all that stuff and doing that.

00:45:33.620 - 00:45:41.410

So that was I think that's why that was different. I mean, I've had some, There was

00:45:41.410 - 00:45:49.750

a Political Science professor who was, you know, great to me. I mean, he's the one that kind of encouraged me

00:45:49.750 - 00:45:58.290

to go to law school too. So... because I, for some reason, I just loved Constitutional Law. So I took a course from him

00:45:58.290 - 00:46:09.070

and I did well because I loved it. And then he said, "You have to go to law school." So he and Goldstein... His name was Jim Magee.

00:46:09.070 - 00:46:17.950

He might still be there. He might be retired. But so that was there. Very different. That's why now it may not be the same.

00:46:17.950 - 00:46:25.000

I don't know because it's a department now. It has a major so it has other needs that it

00:46:25.000 - 00:46:42.290

needs to fulfill. [SF] What do you think about the name change From Women's Studies to Women & Gender Studies? [SB] I just heard about that last time. I think it's good.

00:46:44.640 - 00:46:59.020

I think it "sounds" like a department. And Women's Studies it's just not the study about women. It's not just studying women.

00:46:59.020 - 00:47:10.310

It's studying gender, and people need to understand that. So I think it's more reflective of probably what's happening in the courses.

00:47:10.310 - 00:47:23.810

And it is, I think it's also important that... I don't think people really understand gender.

00:47:23.850 - 00:47:31.010

When we, when I was taking Women's Studies courses, there really wasn't a Gender Studies. It was more about Women's Studies,

00:47:31.010 - 00:47:38.530

the study of women in different spheres. And I think now the evolution... It's evolved into Gender Studies, and so it's appropriate.

00:47:38.530 - 00:48:07.310

I don't... You know, it makes sense. [SF] So, how do you think that Women's Studies impacts your field and career now? [SB] Well, there... When I was in college, the biggest thing I learned

00:48:07.310 - 00:48:32.990

was how to think critically and how to be careful of assumptions. And the third thing is to take the ego out of

00:48:32.990 - 00:48:43.180

investigation or understanding because it's not about me, when I'm looking at something. It's about the problem,

00:48:43.180 - 00:48:54.220

how to come up with solutions, and how, if I'm involved in it, is that I'm part of the process.

00:48:54.220 - 00:49:01.910

I'm not separate from the process that I'm impacted. I impact people. There is no true objectivity.

00:49:01.910 - 00:49:14.120

There's just no true objectivity. There is an agenda. There's to be... When you're looking at something,

00:49:14.120 - 00:49:25.390

they're saying, "Oh, a research group has been formed to do this wonderful thing." First question, "Who's funding it?" That tells you how that research,

00:49:25.390 - 00:49:39.910

what the questions are going to be. So to be very critical. So that critical thinking is, it's something like

00:49:39.910 - 00:49:50.570

I take with me every day in everything I do. When I went to law school they didn't teach you to, there was no critical thinking, I in my mind.

00:49:50.570 - 00:49:59.350

Not the way, not the way I was taught. It was a whole different type of thinking. It's, you know,

00:49:59.350 - 00:50:08.190

"You study the rule of law. Does it apply or not?" That's your traditional law school. I kind of wish I went to. There are some law schools out

00:50:08.190 - 00:50:16.520

there that do more critical analysis law in, in like studying, in studying things. Not just what the law is and how to apply it,

00:50:16.520 - 00:50:24.150

but why was this law created? What was happening in the economy at that time? You know, certain laws came up with when

00:50:24.150 - 00:50:34.050

the Industrial Revolution was going on, things were going on there. You see more regulation than not. So you have a context of what's going on.

00:50:34.050 - 00:50:41.890

So it was very hard for me in law school, in the first year. I almost quit because I hated it. I thought it was disingenuous.

00:50:41.890 - 00:50:48.380

I thought "What is this? What? This is not thinking. This is just studying rules." And it was hard for me.

00:50:48.380 - 00:50:55.410

So I had to re-learn the thinking process. Towards the end of law school, I was able to bring back some of the critical thinking.

00:50:55.410 - 00:51:04.780

So but the law school is a necessary tool to become a lawyer. Because to pass the test to be a lawyer, you have to do that analysis.

00:51:04.780 - 00:51:17.410

"What's the rule?" "What's the problem?" "How does this rule solve the problem?" Or, how you distinguish it. So now having those set of tools,

00:51:17.410 - 00:51:28.060

but with the critical thinking that I learned from University of Delaware, from the Women's Studies program, and the Philosophy, and Political Science,

00:51:28.060 - 00:51:40.530

All that there. You solve it in practicing law. You know, you have a problem. How... You have to look at it.

00:51:40.530 - 00:51:49.300

"Where are the interests?" "What are the goals?" That type of thing. You know, sometimes going to court is just not

00:51:49.300 - 00:51:55.930

the right answer because most people... No one really wins in court. I used to do family law. That's what I first started doing.

00:51:55.930 - 00:52:07.390

And that's how I brought my Women's Studies stuff in. And because I wanted to help empower women, because generally women, at least in 1985,

00:52:07.390 - 00:52:18.910

when I started doing it. In the first 5 to 7 years, there women were impacted disproportionately in a negative way after divorce.

00:52:18.910 - 00:52:27.310

They were economically worse off than men were, in that time period. But life would have it that one of my first alimony cases

00:52:27.310 - 00:52:34.030

was where the woman had the higher earning power. And I represented the guy that was very interesting for me,

00:52:34.030 - 00:52:44.780

It had to have. "Whoa", you know, it's like, "Okay, now what do we do here?" But it's the same analysis, little different.

00:52:44.780 - 00:52:53.090

The reality is he still had a better shot at getting a job because he was a white male. But the way the marriage was set up,

00:52:53.090 - 00:53:04.780

he was not the higher earning power, so I was able to get alimony for him. So it was interesting. So that's what I

00:53:04.780 - 00:53:11.710

wanted to do and I did it. And I brought that in because because you want to be able to work out an agreement where you can help

00:53:11.710 - 00:53:21.040

When parties come to an agreement, especially people who feel like they're being done to and a part of the solution,

00:53:21.040 - 00:53:30.430

they become empowered. They say yes to it, they own it. So if you can get people, instead of a judge saying "This is the way it is."

00:53:30.430 - 00:53:39.660

Because now you feel done to once again. So I'm a great believer in alternative dispute resolution. Using that analysis.

00:53:39.660 - 00:53:44.940

But you have to understand though, you know, Where people are coming from? What are their interests? What are their rights?

00:53:44.940 - 00:53:55.520

And what does the law say? Most importantly, although I think where the experience of Women's Studies, of critical thinking,

00:53:55.520 - 00:54:07.930

and understanding a lot about disenfranchised people. And how to get voices heard was what I do my pro bono work in. I represent

00:54:07.930 - 00:54:15.890

children who are in the foster care system with the Office of Child Advocate have their voice heard. To think outside the box.

00:54:15.890 - 00:54:26.380

Also Women Studies, think outside the box. That was always thinking outside the box. My law partners will tell you, "Shakuntla's always saying think outside the box."

00:54:26.380 - 00:54:39.680

But most, probably most important, most rewarding for me is helping change the laws in Delaware for the inclusion of

00:54:40.230 - 00:54:50.560

Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, not yet transgender. We're working on that. In our laws in Delaware. It took 12 years to add

00:54:50.560 - 00:54:59.420

to say it was unlawful to discriminate based on one's sexual orientation. Was involved in that from day one.

00:54:59.420 - 00:55:09.890

And we hung in there. It took 12 years, 11 years. And we watched how people's minds changed, evolutionary process.

00:55:09.890 - 00:55:20.400

It takes time. It took too long. And at, while this was all happening, we were building relationships

00:55:20.400 - 00:55:29.470

with the governor, lieutenant governor, with the politics, representatives and senators. And there were some of us who just,

00:55:29.470 - 00:55:40.000

we kept coming back, we kept coming back, we kept coming back. And if you stick around long enough, things change.

00:55:40.000 - 00:55:46.300

Things will change. When I was in college, I would've said, "That's bull. You got to.

00:55:46.300 - 00:55:57.070

You can't work within a system. You can't. You're just going to get co-opted. You're not a purist." Yeah, I was in college

00:55:57.070 - 00:56:02.080

and if I was back in college, I would say I would not change. Knowing what I know, I'd still be the same way in college.

00:56:02.080 - 00:56:12.600

I know I would say that. But now where I'm at, I can see, and Delaware is a small state where building blocks,

00:56:12.600 - 00:56:22.030

building blocks hanging in there. And the key is to relationship buidling. And that's thinking outside the box. Relationship-building makes a difference.

00:56:22.030 - 00:56:29.990

And what happened was those of us who were coming back and back and back and back. They would get the senators and

00:56:29.990 - 00:56:36.900

the governor and of all those politicians who get recycled in different positions. They knew us, they knew

00:56:36.900 - 00:56:47.360

our partners, they knew our children. They came to our houses. We helped raise money for them. They became our friends.

00:56:47.360 - 00:56:55.720

I mean, when I, I'll come back to that in a moment, but so I'd be like, "How can you say no?" How can you say no to these people

00:56:55.720 - 00:57:03.140

now we're friends? And I did not appreciate that process until towards the end of that process.

00:57:03.140 - 00:57:16.610

So, and then last year we introduced a civil union bill. And within months it passed. 12 years, ten years or whatever, and then 3 or 4 months.

00:57:16.610 - 00:57:27.160

Well, it was the same people who were fighting for end discrimination in the workplace for civil union. We never thought would happen.

00:57:27.160 - 00:57:34.900

Never thought it would happen. At least I didn't. It's going to take some time, we have to educate because we have Defense Against

00:57:34.900 - 00:57:47.690

Marriage Act in Delaware. So it was inconsistent. But some of the powerful and influential politicians.

00:57:47.690 - 00:58:00.010

And we had Governor Markell was backed us 100% and believed it. And he had grassroots, It was grassroots at work.

00:58:00.010 - 00:58:07.800

Everybody was calling their representative. Everybody. So you take that model of working with the community.

00:58:07.800 - 00:58:14.410

You have the, you have the approach, the academic approach and the theory. How to get a bill through. And you have

00:58:14.410 - 00:58:28.350

the human element. And everything fell in place and it worked. There were fights, it worked. Some of the, there was in the,

00:58:28.350 - 00:58:36.730

it actually is some of the women in the Senate and the House were the key movers behind the civil union bill too.

00:58:36.730 - 00:58:47.560

Men too. But in the House, the sponsor of the House she did an awesome job, and she did it in a way that

00:58:47.560 - 00:58:56.240

only I'm going to say a woman could do it. That's my separatism coming out there. But only a woman can do it. She did it with such grace,

00:58:56.240 - 00:59:03.260

with such respect, no ego. There were like, I don't know, ten amendments. Every amendment up down,

00:59:03.260 - 00:59:10.330

up down. The bill was not, not one word was changed on the civil union bill. Never, this rarely ever happens when you

00:59:10.330 - 00:59:22.900

have a controversial bill. And she did it with such grace, which such, as I said, respect for the opposition but with firmness.

00:59:22.900 - 00:59:30.280

And it was just. It was just watching it was beautiful. And I don't, I just don't think

00:59:30.280 - 00:59:39.850

a guy could have pulled that off that way. It was very disarming. But all that said, it was Bill Oberle who started our,

00:59:39.850 - 00:59:51.560

a white male Republican, who started the... It was HB 99 to end discrimination in the public sphere based on sexual orientation.

00:59:51.560 - 00:59:58.480

I never thought I'd be working with a white male Republican. And he turned out to be my best, one of my best friends.

00:59:58.480 - 01:00:08.950

He taught me a lot about the system. He empowered me, and he learned from us too. And he changed. And he has this awesome wife

01:00:08.950 - 01:00:17.420

and he retired. I mean, it wasn't on his watch where it really all happened, but without him,

01:00:17.420 - 01:00:25.470

it would have never happened. So it takes, it takes time so you can make a difference. Look, look, we just heard yesterday

01:00:25.470 - 01:00:38.010

with President Obama on gay marriage. >> You know, it's, it's there, it's going to happen. I mean, I'm sure,

01:00:38.010 - 01:00:46.010

if we can get a bill to Governor Markell for marriage, he'd sign it. He wouldn't veto it. I'm sure

01:00:46.010 - 01:00:56.430

everything's lining up right now. Our senator Chris Coons 100% support of gay marriage. So and, and he

01:00:56.430 - 01:01:06.720

knows me and he knows some other people, and he knows the families. So how has all this culminated? I entered into a civil union and invited

01:01:06.720 - 01:01:18.720

people from my... people that I knew back in college. They went to school with... to still friends with

01:01:18.720 - 01:01:28.600

shout out to the Turkels, Gerry and Kathy, who are good friends of ours because my partner really studied under Dr. Turkel,

01:01:28.600 - 01:01:39.780

Gerry Turkel, and politicians. So it was a very inclusive celebration there, because it wasn't just the celebration

01:01:39.780 - 01:01:48.780

of Kathy and I being together for 30 years. It was also a political statement. For me, everything is political. Political is personal.

01:01:48.780 - 01:01:55.860

Personal is political. It is not different. That's how I see it. Learned that in Women's Studies courses

01:01:55.860 - 01:02:04.350

and it remains the same. And when we did our vows, that was when I did my statement. I was talking to how

01:02:04.350 - 01:02:09.910

the personal is political and this is a political statement, and there's a lot more work that needs to be done.

01:02:09.910 - 01:02:20.120

So am I co-opted a little bit? Yes, absolutely. Am I the one that's going go out there and do major civil disobedience?

01:02:20.120 - 01:02:33.950

Probably not at this point. I think about, "Is it raining? Oh, it's too hot." You know, old age stuff that. Will I be there trying to talk?

01:02:33.950 - 01:02:40.670

Do I have now access to the people who have the power to maybe make actual change in the laws? I do.

01:02:40.670 - 01:02:52.170

So I view myself as a bridge, and I'm not going to run for office. You know, people say, "What do you think?" I don't know if I really want to do that.

01:02:52.170 - 01:02:57.400

But I want to be the bridge. I want to be the advocate. That's why I like being a lawyer. I want to be the advocate

01:02:57.400 - 01:03:07.690

that speaks for the people who are afraid to speak or they don't think they have the right words to speak yet. The voice, the politicians will

01:03:07.690 - 01:03:17.600

tell you, voices, people, people's stories, is what matters more than any lawyer's dissertation on the law. People's voices.

01:03:17.600 - 01:03:25.240

And so if I... So learning from Women's Studies is, "How do you work with groups to empower?" Everything's about empowerment.

01:03:25.240 - 01:03:36.260

Empowerment. And the more empowered, you have your citizenry, the happier we are. And the happier we are,

01:03:36.480 - 01:03:46.520

you know, good stuff happens. You know, good stuff happens. So really, Personal is political. Critical thinking.

01:03:46.520 - 01:03:57.790

Think out of the box. Understand, really understand who you're working with and what their interests are. Carry through.

01:03:57.790 - 01:04:08.240

Just yesterday, I was testifying against a bill in trying to protect, it was dealing with mentally ill people

01:04:08.240 - 01:04:15.610

and involuntary commitment. And they're trying to revamp the whole thing, which is great, to bring dignity to the process.

01:04:15.610 - 01:04:21.340

But then they were trying to say, "You couldn't have access to the courts to file lawsuits. So you'd be immune from falling lawsuits

01:04:21.340 - 01:04:27.430

during this 24 hour detention. And I'm like, "What? You're giving civil liberties, but then you're going to take away the Seventh Amendment

01:04:27.430 - 01:04:33.310

right for the people, who are the most vulnerable? You're making them second-class citizens." And that's where...

01:04:33.310 - 01:04:39.800

The second-class citizens, women and we were second-class citizens, to some degree we still are. And where did I learn that?

01:04:39.800 - 01:04:52.310

Women's Studies when we studied women. So that understanding then applies to any... There will always be in our country, there will always be a group that is disenfranchised.

01:04:52.310 - 01:04:59.640

There just always will be. I do not believe that there's always... that there's going to be this utopia. There always will be some group

01:04:59.640 - 01:05:07.830

that's left out, that's disenfranchised because we evolve nothing is constant. That's why I view the Constitution as an evolving document

01:05:07.830 - 01:05:18.170

as opposed to just words paper that have literal meaning. Get the law on there. So Justice Scalia and I would not be friends.

01:05:18.600 - 01:05:29.000

You know, Justice Brennan is my hero, you know. But so that's, that's how the impact is.

01:05:29.000 - 01:05:37.880

I know some people have taken their Women's Studies experience and, are teachers or professors now. I have friends who are professors

01:05:37.880 - 01:05:47.500

at other universities. So and they're doing all this, you know, way-out-there artwork or study of history and you know,

01:05:47.500 - 01:05:56.750

and in theatre and in the did stuff in different ways. There are people who have counseled

01:05:56.750 - 01:06:02.750

Senator Biden at the time when they did the, when he drafted the Women Against Violence Act,

01:06:02.750 - 01:06:13.430

there was a woman behind that working with him on doing that. And he'll tell you that. And I think it's, you know, that experience is there.

01:06:13.430 - 01:06:24.360

So it still continues, it really does. So I really hope the Gender Studies, I don't quite understand all the Gender Studies stuff,

01:06:24.360 - 01:06:34.450

but I've read the literature. And, but I do know there's another process going on in which translates into

01:06:34.450 - 01:06:43.870

discrimination against transgendered people. And we need to work on that. And that's what we need, that's the next... That's what we need to work on.

01:06:43.870 - 01:06:50.910

And it's the young people like you guys that bring this to our attention to work on it and that

01:06:50.910 - 01:06:58.970

needs to be done, and it'll get there. It will get there, but we still have attention. I mean, although President Obama

01:06:58.970 - 01:07:09.130

makes this great announcement, Either he was forced to, or it was all stage, I don't know which one it was. And notice how he relies on...

01:07:09.130 - 01:07:21.340

He says, "My children, my wife." He says, "My children would not..." My children, you know, and this is our values in doing that,

01:07:21.410 - 01:07:29.100

and that's what it comes down to, is we get to know people and then what's your value system on these issues?

01:07:29.100 - 01:07:38.670

And I think deep down inside, nobody wants to treat someone less than. Nobody wants to do that. It's just that when you don't know something,

01:07:38.670 - 01:07:50.450

you're afraid of it and... Or when there's a scarce resource. When you don't have enough jobs, then you can see the racism,

01:07:50.450 - 01:07:58.770

sexism that will just come out. "Who's going to get the jobs?" "Who's going to get the jobs?" That's when that comes out.

01:07:58.770 - 01:08:07.560

When there's scarce resources. This country still has to work. I mean, we still have a hard time thinking a woman could

01:08:07.560 - 01:08:15.720

be president of this country. I don't think people accept that even with when Hillary Clinton ran, I think people had trouble with that.

01:08:15.720 - 01:08:24.120

And I'm not surprised it was an African-American male that became president before a woman. That does not surprise me.

01:08:24.120 - 01:08:33.990

We really had the Civil Rights movement first, then we had the Women's movement. And if you look at history that tracks it. But in other countries it's very different.

01:08:33.990 - 01:08:42.320

Even the most repressed countries because of the family for different reasons. It's keeping Bhutto, for example in Pakistan,

01:08:42.320 - 01:08:49.710

keeping in the family type of thing is that aristocracy type of issue. It's a whole different thing, but still... Golda Meir,

01:08:49.710 - 01:08:59.710

Did I like her politics? Not necessarily, but she was able to run a country. Margaret Thatcher. Who would ever think to be Prime Minister? Did I like her politics?

01:08:59.710 - 01:09:09.490

No! That's when I was in school when that happened No way, you know, And also just because people say, "Oh, look." I go, "Just because she's a woman doesn't mean

01:09:09.490 - 01:09:17.970

I necessarily agree with their politics." When Sandra Day O'Connor was nominated to the U.S. Supreme Court by Reagan, I was like,

01:09:17.970 - 01:09:24.380

"I don't know if I'm going to like her politics!" People say, "You should be happy." I go, "I don't know. We've got to see how she's going to rule."

01:09:24.380 - 01:09:30.800

So, so it's not. People assume in Women's Studies just because it's a woman, you're going to support that person.

01:09:30.800 - 01:09:47.700

Not necessarily. Sarah Palin, sorry, don't support you. (Laughs) So it really is, and I'm odd. I'm not saying... I don't know if

01:09:47.700 - 01:10:02.400

other people have the same experience, but it's just who I am. [SF] Well thank you very much for this. Would you like to add anything else to the interview? One last thought?

01:10:02.400 - 01:10:10.500

[SB] Yeah, I forgot to mention something. One of the things that I really enjoyed when I was in the 1970s, when that time period,

01:10:10.500 - 01:10:24.190

1970 to 1982, was a program, a series called Research on Women. It was lunch, and we all brought our bag lunches and mostly

01:10:24.190 - 01:10:30.010

women professors, but also men. Whatever resource they were working on, we would learn about it. And even students,

01:10:30.010 - 01:10:37.440

if students were doing research, graduate students. I even got to present my research paper on. And it was really good because you're like,

01:10:37.440 - 01:10:42.490

"Oh, this is going on here, this is going on there." So people from outside of the University would come.

01:10:42.490 - 01:10:52.750

It was really, really great. And I think it may have been you could get a credit for it, something like one credit, or whatever, something like that.

01:10:52.750 - 01:10:59.140

But I find out now that it's a whole course, which is great because that tells me there's more research going on

01:10:59.140 - 01:11:07.540

to fill up a course every year. And that's great, that's great evolutionary process. So when I hear how things, what things are

01:11:07.540 - 01:11:13.630

changing from, okay, 1985. I don't even want to count how many years has it been? 30 years?

01:11:13.630 - 01:11:19.370

Probably right? Yeah, that's when I got involved with Kathy. 30 years. not 1985. 1982.

01:11:19.370 - 01:11:29.720

1982 by 30 years. It'll be 30 years! I just realized that this May it will be 30 years since I graduated college.

01:11:29.720 - 01:11:40.270

Oh my God! Delete this part. 30 years. And look at some positive changes that have taken place, what's the next 30 years going to be like?

01:11:40.270 - 01:11:50.020

Where are we going to be in that? That's just pretty awesome. I should be around still in 30 years, hopefully. It'll be pretty awesome.

01:11:50.020 - 01:11:57.790

You know, that's kind of cool. And oral history is very important. I'm glad you guys are doing this because maybe in my old age,

01:11:57.790 - 01:12:04.510

I'll want to look at this stuff and just see how things have gone by. And it's another

01:12:04.510 - 01:12:11.200

thing I've learned in a Women's Studies doing oral history. So that, that's also good. So that's great.

01:12:11.200 - 01:12:21.560

And I hope you get good stuff out of this and maybe someone can make sense out of it all. [SF] I hope in 30 years we'll be sitting where you are. [SB] That's right, that's right.

01:12:21.560 - 01:12:37.700

[SF] Maybe somebody will be interviewing us. [SB] That's right, right, right. That's it. Thanks. [SF] Thank you. [SB] Was that okay? [SF] Yeah, you're awesome.