00:00:00.200 - 00:00:09.810

[Marie Laberge] All right, this is Marie Laberge. I'm interviewing Pasha Bueno-Hansen on June 28th at 9AM in her office. Thank you, Pasha. [Pasha Bueno-Hansen] You're very welcome.

00:00:09.810 - 00:00:17.770

[ML] So I'm going to start by getting some biographical information from you. So where you were born. What it was like growing up as a girl and

00:00:17.770 - 00:00:28.090

sort of what your sort of early ideas about gender were when you were growing up. [PB-H] Well, I was born in Berkeley, California and I was a tomboy

00:00:28.090 - 00:00:39.020

and I grew up with my boy cousin who was, we're six weeks apart, so we grew up more like twins. And I was always very

00:00:39.020 - 00:00:48.590

aware of his privileges, his male privilege, and I really hated it. And I didn't see the reason why he was

00:00:48.590 - 00:00:56.780

privileged in all these ways that are quite obvious. And it... I... From the very beginning, I can't remember a time when

00:00:56.780 - 00:01:09.710

I wasn't feeling rebellious towards that. [ML] And so as you were growing up, what was your sort of educational experience like? Sort of your ideas

00:01:09.710 - 00:01:21.530

about what you wanted to do? Thinking about what you wanted to be when you grew up? [PB-H] Well, I didn't, I guess I didn't have one of those, "I want to be whatever."

00:01:21.530 - 00:01:29.720

You know, I didn't have that. I knew that I really wanted to just explore the world and have as much different types

00:01:29.720 - 00:01:38.210

of exposure as possible. I was really interested always in traveling and in coming to know

00:01:38.210 - 00:01:49.280

just all the different kinds of natural environments around me. Did a lot of hanging out in the regional parks, hiking around,

00:01:49.280 - 00:01:57.470

and have a history of a lot of backpacking different parts of the country. And again,

00:01:57.470 - 00:02:08.480

traveling that's more where my interests were than sort of nailing down a career path or profession. [ML] Did you always assume you would go off to college?

00:02:08.480 - 00:02:21.210

[PB-H] It was very much programmed into me and my parents' expectations of me and my peer group. It was absolutely assumed.

00:02:21.220 - 00:02:32.450

[ML] So when you entered college, where did you go? And what did you think you were going to major in? [PB-H] I started my BA at Tufts University and I

00:02:32.450 - 00:02:40.520

wanted to major in International Relations. And being the California, or I should say Northern California girl that I was,

00:02:40.520 - 00:02:49.830

I really did not find the Boston area at all comprehensible. And I didn't understand what fraternities and sororities were.

00:02:49.830 - 00:02:55.230

And I remember one of the main things people would ask me when I first got there was, "Where are you rushing?"

00:02:55.230 - 00:03:03.320

And I would say, "I'm not in a rush." And I just, that just epitomizes how out of sync I was.

00:03:03.320 - 00:03:08.690

And so I was like, "No, I'm going back to California." So I transferred back to University of California,

00:03:08.690 - 00:03:18.650

Santa Cruz for my second year. And the one thing, I mean, I did love that year at Tufts because I first,

00:03:18.650 - 00:03:28.080

also, I first was... The first time I was able to take part in a massive demonstration. And that was the Webster decision around

00:03:28.080 - 00:03:38.000

the issue of abortion rights in 1989. So that was a really politicizing moment and I wouldn't have been able to do that if I hadn't been already

00:03:38.000 - 00:03:44.330

on the East Coast and taking part in that kind of organizing on campus. The other thing that was really politicizing

00:03:44.330 - 00:03:53.750

for me was the student organizing around withdrawing investment in South Africa, around apartheid. That was also very, very

00:03:53.750 - 00:04:03.110

politicizing for me. And I took those main experiences, plus the incredible richness of taking Art and Art History courses and being in

00:04:03.110 - 00:04:12.260

that Boston area and all the incredible museums. I took those experiences back with me. That's sort of the beauty of it.

00:04:12.260 - 00:04:17.270

And then of course, you know, there are all the things I didn't understand about the place and went back to Santa Cruz

00:04:17.270 - 00:04:34.040

and promptly majored in Women's Studies. [ML] So you did switch to Women's Studies there? You were in International Relations before? [PB-H] Mm-hm, and the masculinity and the total white, elitist mood of International Relations totally shut me out.

00:04:34.040 - 00:04:45.260

I could not find my place in that space at all. And I didn't, I felt it's so foreign too. So I, you know, the experience of organizing

00:04:45.260 - 00:04:59.180

around abortion rights and then going to Santa Cruz and having a very, very rich and, you know, very energetic, exciting Women's Studies Department and many,

00:04:59.180 - 00:05:07.390

many Women's Studies majors, and a lot of activism going on. I just plugged right into that. [ML] So that's a very different experience than

00:05:07.390 - 00:05:26.800

some of the, than most of, the folks that I've been interviewing. Because they were creating those Women's Studies programs Did you continue your activism in Women's politics and the Women's Movement in Santa Cruz? PB-H] Somewhat, but Santa Cruz is such a sort of

00:05:26.800 - 00:05:35.380

isolated place that it's not that easy to really get involved with things. You know, I mean, there's, there's what's going on

00:05:35.380 - 00:05:44.380

on campus and in the small town. But to get connected to what's happening in larger the San Francisco Bay area or whatever,

00:05:44.380 - 00:05:51.140

you need to be really plugged in and have transportation. And so I wasn't, it wasn't as accessible as it could have

00:05:51.140 - 00:05:59.630

probably been if I stayed at Tufts. But I mean, I was involved with things on campus here and there, but I also got very, very involved with,

00:05:59.630 - 00:06:07.610

with team sports. I started playing Ultimate Frisbee. So that became my priority besides Women's Studies.

00:06:07.610 - 00:06:20.690

[ML] So you got your degree in Women's Studies? [PB-H] And minor in Politics. [ML] And then, did you know from there, that you were going on to graduate school? [PB-H] No, I knew for sure I didn't

00:06:20.690 - 00:06:32.150

want to have anything to do with the university ever again, and I absolutely had no interest in academia. And all I wanted to do was figure out

00:06:32.150 - 00:06:41.480

ways to finance traveling and backpacking. That was all I wanted to do. So I got offered a research assistant position

00:06:41.480 - 00:06:50.880

with one of my professors, and I promptly declined it because I wanted to be a camp counselor at a backpacking camp that I already had gotten that job.

00:06:50.880 - 00:07:05.570

So the academic track was open to me, but it wasn't my time yet. [ML] So how long were you out of university and backpacking? [PB-H] (Laughs) Well, I managed to pull off

00:07:05.570 - 00:07:15.650

six months without sleeping in a house. So I did. I did. Okay. I did that summer of backpacking camp where

00:07:15.650 - 00:07:24.770

we slept outside the whole time. And then I did another three months of a backpacking kind of course that what I

00:07:24.770 - 00:07:30.470

earned over the summer could pay for the course. And that was another six months. And that was absolutely fantastic.

00:07:30.470 - 00:07:37.770

It was called Nature, Philosophy, and Religion. And over the three months, we backpacked in

00:07:37.870 - 00:07:48.410

something like five different, incredible different locations in California and read eco-feminism and poetry

00:07:48.410 - 00:07:58.640

and all kinds of, you know, we had all these typically California hippie religious ritual experiences and with all the different things

00:07:58.640 - 00:08:06.110

you can imagine happening. I mean, it was just incredible. It was fantastic. And so I, you know,

00:08:06.110 - 00:08:16.790

I got my fix then and then had to kind of try to figure out what's next. But I wasn't like,

00:08:16.790 - 00:08:25.460

I was absolutely rejecting like any kind of, "You have to do this." or "You have to do that." I think it was so shoved down my throat.

00:08:25.460 - 00:08:30.860

Coming from an upper middle-class family like, "You're going to do this." and "You're going to do that." That I rebelled

00:08:30.860 - 00:08:39.980

really strongly against it. [ML] So what was next? [PB-H] Well, there was also a recession in the early 1990s,

00:08:39.980 - 00:08:45.680

so there weren't really that many jobs. So the work that I had been doing during college, which is basically like waitressing,

00:08:45.680 - 00:08:53.450

bussing, bar, before baristas became so famous, I was making the espresso drinks in different cafes

00:08:53.450 - 00:09:02.150

and restaurants and stuff. So I went back to that. I was working a couple different restaurants and also

00:09:02.150 - 00:09:10.560

volunteering at a place called NARAL, which is like the National Abortion Rights Action, something like that. [ML] League? [PB-H] League. Yeah. Yeah.

00:09:10.560 - 00:09:16.280

Yeah. So that's what I did for a while until I can earn enough money. Then I'm parents said that I could

00:09:16.280 - 00:09:23.960

stay rent-free for awhile at the house, so I stayed there, work these jobs, did the volunteering, saved some more money, and then I

00:09:23.960 - 00:09:31.560

did some more traveling. So I was just like, "I'm not settling down. I'm not going to do anything like you're supposed to."

00:09:31.560 - 00:09:42.080

[ML] So what led you back to the academy? [PB-H] I worked a bunch of, you know, I finally did kind of "get serious", right? I mean, you have to

00:09:42.080 - 00:09:47.660

figure out how you're going to sustain yourself. But the ticket of mom and dad's coattails

00:09:47.660 - 00:09:59.250

isn't going to last forever, obviously. And I wasn't a mooch to begin with. So I started working at a non-profit that was called Women's...

00:09:59.250 - 00:10:11.130

I don't even remember the name of it. Basically it was a non-profit social service for women dealing with domestic violence, sexual assault, chemical dependency issues.

00:10:11.130 - 00:10:20.230

And I was, I became the outreach and education coordinator. So I spent a couple years going to junior highs and high schools and

00:10:20.230 - 00:10:35.740

colleges and jails and sheriffs' offices and city police offices and rehab in-house and rehab out-patient and every single different kind of space to do

00:10:35.740 - 00:10:41.620

education outreach around domestic violence and sexual assault. So I have a really strong background on all of

00:10:41.620 - 00:10:51.310

those issues from a practical level. And that feed, that continued my sort of thread around Women's Studies and issues

00:10:51.310 - 00:11:02.410

around particularly violence against women. And then I worked at a couple other non-profits. And then I finally got to a point

00:11:02.410 - 00:11:11.800

where I realized I couldn't, I didn't want to continue doing that kind of work forever in the same way. And I needed some sort of professionalizing,

00:11:11.800 - 00:11:20.920

degree to take me to the next step. So I decided to get a Masters in International Relations. And I figured that

00:11:20.920 - 00:11:27.520

that would be that professionalizing step. And then I could maybe go into a funding institution or something and work for

00:11:27.520 - 00:11:34.640

the same kinds of issues but from a different angle. So I did that, I did a Master's in International Relations.

00:11:34.640 - 00:11:44.390

[ML] At Santa Cruz? [PB-H] No, at San Francisco State University. And that was an absolutely incredible experience. There was our cohort was probably around

00:11:44.390 - 00:11:57.290

23 people and I was one of three U.S. born. So, and I'm bi-racial and another person was also bi-racial, had grown up like in Guatemala.

00:11:57.290 - 00:12:05.150

And then it was just like so incredibly diverse that talking about international relations with people from, you know,

00:12:05.150 - 00:12:17.260

Ethiopia, Nepal, and Singapore and all different countries in Europe and a couple Latin Americans. It just totally,

00:12:17.260 - 00:12:25.910

it was a completely different world than what I had first been introduced to at Tufts, and that made it mine. And there was a space for me

00:12:25.910 - 00:12:34.520

to read Chandra Mohanty and figure out what does that have to do with things I'm reading and why

00:12:34.520 - 00:12:42.750

haven't people made the connections? This was in the late 1990s, 2000? 2001? No, late 1990s.

00:12:42.750 - 00:12:52.190

Late 1990s. So Feminist IR was just kind of barely kind of on the edges and was very much facing

00:12:52.190 - 00:13:01.010

the dominant and trying to get into that dominant frame. And it was very ghetto-ized and very frustrating.

00:13:01.010 - 00:13:06.380

So I was reading all these other amazing people and taking classes with, for example, Minoo Moallem,

00:13:06.380 - 00:13:16.650

who was in Women's Studies. I was taking classes from her and she ended up actually being on my thesis committee for my Master's thesis.

00:13:16.650 - 00:13:25.190

And she was pushing me to make those connections. And I felt like my feminist training really grew with her in particular.

00:13:25.190 - 00:13:40.860

And the way she pushed me to think about international relations. [ML] What was your Master's thesis on? [PB-H] It was on the impact of neoliberalism in Peru,

00:13:40.860 - 00:13:50.570

on women living in the shanty towns around Lima. So I did research with this, in this one community of

00:13:50.570 - 00:14:00.440

shanty towns outside of Lima, and worked with this one NGO that had really good programming in this neighborhood and did

00:14:00.440 - 00:14:07.300

a lot of interviews. And that's also where I really came to understand the impact of the internal armed conflict

00:14:07.300 - 00:14:14.900

that had ended not too much before that. So that's also kind of where the seeds were sown for

00:14:14.900 - 00:14:26.060

what eventually became my dissertation, thesis and my book manuscript. [ML] And so once you got your Master's thesis was it automatic to go for the Ph.D.?

00:14:26.060 - 00:14:38.930

[PB-H] Well, I have to admit, I was seduced by academia and I had an interest in working with Sonya Alvarez at Santa Cruz,

00:14:38.930 - 00:14:46.610

because I saw her making the kind of connections that I didn't see happening in international relations. And she's a Latin Americanist and she knows

00:14:46.610 - 00:14:55.280

about feminist movements in Peru and all these different things. And so I went to talk to her and I said, "Are you going to stick around?"

00:14:55.280 - 00:15:02.900

Because I didn't want to start that program if she was ready to move because I only wanted to work with her. And she said,

00:15:02.900 - 00:15:11.060

"Yeah, I'm planning on sticking around." So I said, "I'm going to apply." So I applied, I got in, and I was still tepid about, "Do I really

00:15:11.060 - 00:15:17.540

want to do this?" And I went and talked to a woman named Millie Thayer, who is this really amazing

00:15:17.540 - 00:15:24.410

feminist sociologist. She's currently at UMass, Amherst. She was finishing up her Ph.D. at UC Berkeley.

00:15:24.410 - 00:15:31.670

And I knew her from political organizing, Latin-American Solidarity in San Francisco where I had been working. She was in that circle.

00:15:31.670 - 00:15:41.250

So I talked to her and she just said, "Don't do it. It is so draining. You can do so many other things with your energy.

00:15:41.250 - 00:15:57.150

Don't do it." And I just was like so disheartened, So, then I decided I deferred a year, because I wasn't ready to let go of it.

00:15:57.150 - 00:16:03.970

And then I applied for my dream job, which came up, which is with the Global Fund for Women in San Francisco,

00:16:03.970 - 00:16:13.070

Latin American program officer. And I got interviewed and there were something like 80 applicants. And it was like me and one other person.

00:16:13.070 - 00:16:19.040

And I thought, "Well, this is pretty much it. If I get this job, I'm going to do this job.

00:16:19.040 - 00:16:26.220

And this will take me into the world of funding and women's issues, and supporting grassroots organizing.

00:16:26.220 - 00:16:31.490

And if I don't get it, I'm going to start that Ph.D. program and I'm going to see how goes with the

00:16:31.490 - 00:16:38.670

permission to drop it. If I feel like it's not working for me and not to think I'm quitting or a loser."

00:16:38.670 - 00:16:46.170

So I didn't get the job. So I started Ph.D. kind of sideways and backwards. I only applied to one.

00:16:46.170 - 00:16:56.130

I kind of didn't know if I wanted to go. I deferred it. And then I started it with high level of hesitation And then I loved it.

00:16:56.130 - 00:17:10.460

And here I am, a professor. [ML] So what was your dissertation research focused on? [PB-H] My dissertation research focused on the impact of the

00:17:10.460 - 00:17:23.310

internal armed conflict in Peru, on women. And the internal armed conflict in Peru started in 1980 and was started

00:17:23.310 - 00:17:37.460

by a Maoist guerrilla group, called The Shining Path. And the fighting ensued for about 12 years, really hot.

00:17:37.460 - 00:17:45.590

And it was that guerrilla group, another guerrilla group that was more present in the Amazon, and then the state

00:17:45.590 - 00:17:58.160

forces and then paramilitary. And they, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission that happened in 2000,

00:17:58.160 - 00:18:07.830

investigated the causes and consequences and found that a little more than 69,000 people were killed during the, during that conflict.

00:18:07.830 - 00:18:16.440

And that there was definitely sexual violence that had occurred during the conflict, particularly to women.

00:18:16.440 - 00:18:26.390

So it was on the tails of the work that had been done in Guatemala, and in South Africa, and then the tribunals of ex-Yugoslavia,

00:18:26.390 - 00:18:38.780

and Rwanda, that Peru started to really try to work in a gender analysis, women's public hearings, preparing legal cases around

00:18:38.780 - 00:18:52.370

sexual violence for prosecution. And so I look at those developments and ascertain the level to which they really were able to make headway and how

00:18:52.370 - 00:19:01.400

they many times re-inscribe social hierarchies. And then I also look at the human rights and feminist movements and what they did

00:19:01.400 - 00:19:08.270

during the conflict building up to the end of the conflict, and then during the transition period.

00:19:08.270 - 00:19:17.600

And I look at one feminist NGO, which was the first feminist NGO to take on issues of sexual violence during internal armed conflict.

00:19:17.600 - 00:19:26.360

And how they did that work, which was extremely, extremely transformational. And what I would call a model

00:19:26.360 - 00:19:47.810

for decolonial feminist practice. [ML] And how did you get here to University of Delaware? [PB-H] I got to the University of Delaware because you guys wanted me. Basically. The best offer,

00:19:47.810 - 00:19:56.030

you know, terrible market. I think two-thirds of my application, no, not two-thirds. Probably half of

00:19:56.030 - 00:20:06.680

my applications came back saying, "This search has been frozen due to lack of funds." So it was not looking good and I was

00:20:06.680 - 00:20:18.230

really lucky that I got this offer and another offer, and this was a better offer. So here I am. [ML] And we're glad of it.

00:20:18.230 - 00:20:29.370

What do you think about the East Coast, at this point? Just curious, given your experience with Tufts. [PB-H] Well, the mid-Atlantic is different from New England for sure.

00:20:29.370 - 00:20:43.460

I still am trying to get it, you know, it's just so different, so different. But, you know, it's been a while now, so at least I can function within it.

00:20:43.460 - 00:20:52.610

And I although I don't understand very much. [ML] So you entered Women's Studies when it was a

00:20:52.610 - 00:21:01.460

full-fledged major and an actual education option for students. That's a very different experience than a lot of people I've interviewed. I wonder what

00:21:01.460 - 00:21:14.990

you think about having a Women's Studies major as an option for students, has meant for your generation and this generation that we're dealing with today?

00:21:14.990 - 00:21:22.550

[PB-H] Well, I think my experience is very particular because I happened to land at an institution that established

00:21:22.550 - 00:21:32.300

a Women's Studies major very early on in comparison to the national trend. So I think it established for me an unrealistic expectation of

00:21:32.300 - 00:21:38.750

Women's Studies departments nationally. Because of my particular experience at Santa Cruz. I mean, Santa Cruz Women's Studies is

00:21:38.750 - 00:21:51.330

a cutting-edge program and for whatever configuration of issues and reasons and so forth and actors. So I think that it's been,

00:21:51.430 - 00:22:02.870

it's been eye-opening to understand more of the national picture and understand where UD fits, and where my experience at Santa Cruz fits,

00:22:02.870 - 00:22:14.610

and my experience at San Francisco State. So most, and there's a much higher number, a Women's Studies departments that are on track with UD

00:22:14.610 - 00:22:24.860

than there are on track with UC Santa Cruz or San Francisco State. So it's kind of a coming to sort of a national perspective

00:22:24.860 - 00:22:43.250

that being here has offered me. [ML] And what do you think Women's Studies means to undergraduates as having it as a possible major option? [PB-H] For undergraduates... [ML] I mean, you came from International Relations because

00:22:43.250 - 00:22:58.360

you didn't feel like it was a place for you and your concerns. I'm just curious why you think Women's Studies made the difference? [PB-H] Well, for me, I mean,

00:22:58.360 - 00:23:07.210

I can see what it means for me and I can imagine maybe some of that applies to UD undergrads here. But for me, the way I

00:23:07.210 - 00:23:17.310

think is the way I like to approach issues and questions and formulate, you know, approaches to analyzing problems

00:23:17.310 - 00:23:27.100

does not fit into a discipline. So for me, interdisciplinarity or transdisciplinarity is a must.

00:23:27.100 - 00:23:39.470

I can't make my brain think disciplinary. It doesn't work. It's too much boundaries. So if that, maybe if students, if students, I mean,

00:23:39.470 - 00:23:47.380

maybe there's some students experiencing that and that might be one of the reasons, I think more significantly, is when they start being

00:23:47.380 - 00:23:54.250

able to build a critical way of reading the world. And I think that, that once they get a taste of that,

00:23:54.250 - 00:24:04.000

you can't go back. A lot of students resist it and just do it for their credit to graduate, their multicultural whatever.

00:24:04.000 - 00:24:11.200

And you know, maybe at some point one of those seeds will grow after some life experiences.

00:24:11.200 - 00:24:23.400

But the few that follow through are usually passionate about injustice. They want to make it, and they want to make it change.

00:24:23.400 - 00:24:30.230

[ML] So it sounds like your experience at Santa Cruz was very affirming of your own personal critique. I'm wondering if you experienced

00:24:30.230 - 00:24:43.880

any resistance to your analysis, especially since you do International Relations? And how you deal with challenges to your work? From the lens of the Women's Studies perspective.

00:24:43.880 - 00:24:53.940

[PB-H] Challenges to my work from...? [ML] Resistance to Women's Studies critique from the field of International Relations. [PB-H] Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah.

00:24:53.940 - 00:25:04.310

I mean, not just International Relations, but studies around Peruvian internal armed conflict, and comparative politics

00:25:04.310 - 00:25:15.830

and Latin American politics in general, it's still seen as, "Oh, you do that" kind of thing. Definitely. But I mean,

00:25:15.830 - 00:25:20.120

I'm in conversation with people who I want to be in conversation with at this point. I'm not trying to prove myself to

00:25:20.120 - 00:25:28.070

people who don't want to listen to me. So I just kind of, that's not, I don't engage in that at all. Like I'm doing

00:25:28.070 - 00:25:36.860

what I want to do and there's plenty of people who I can talk to about it. [ML] So you've seen a development of enough of a critical mass

00:25:36.860 - 00:25:48.480

that there's colleagues who are engaging in a lot of this as well? So it's not a risk to your career? You think, in terms of your research? [PB-H] A risk to my career?

00:25:48.480 - 00:25:57.950

No, because there is enough interdisciplinary, even though it's small, there is enough interdisciplinary space

00:25:57.950 - 00:26:08.750

nationally to hold me. And that's definitely like you're saying, it's a historical development. So I happen to be in

00:26:08.750 - 00:26:20.510

that place where I don't have to be trying to make people, who want to shut me out, listen to me. [ML] In terms of your experiences,

00:26:20.510 - 00:26:35.810

here at the University, you arrived here in 2010? [PB-H] 2009. [ML] So fall of 2009. Have you seen any changes here

00:26:35.810 - 00:26:49.040

at University of Delaware that have an impact in terms of the work that we do in Women's Studies? [PB-H] Well, I mean, there's the developments that, you know,

00:26:49.040 - 00:26:57.510

are part of the timeline like becoming a department. I mean, that's very significant to have that kind of administrative support.

00:26:57.510 - 00:27:05.090

So I think that that's really given us a green light to strengthen and strengthen our, our curriculum.

00:27:05.090 - 00:27:11.450

And that's what we're doing. You know, taking on the Theory and Methods class, I think is very significant in

00:27:11.450 - 00:27:22.300

terms of claiming our curriculum. The grant for the Domestic Violence is huge institution building for us.

00:27:22.300 - 00:27:29.060

And I think that puts us on a map and a really important way because it shows a very clear path to a job that is so

00:27:29.060 - 00:27:37.760

necessary in or economic climate. So I think that there's a couple things that are really significant. Also, another thing I

00:27:37.760 - 00:27:47.210

would say is really significant is seeming interesting growth around Sexuality and Gender Studies. I think that that's something that

00:27:47.210 - 00:27:54.080

could really be thought through a little bit more collectively. And what does that mean for us? And how do we

00:27:54.080 - 00:28:05.360

speak to students interests as they a change? And then our name change. Trying to kind of move out of potential essentialist readings about

00:28:05.360 - 00:28:16.610

women and how much the field has sort of grown in multiple directions and been influenced particularly by Gender and Sexuality Studies.

00:28:16.610 - 00:28:29.790

[ML] So do you think that the move to department, which has been in the works, attempts at it, for 20 years gives us more legitimacy here at University of Delaware?

00:28:29.790 - 00:28:43.370

[PB-H] Oh yeah, absolutely. It shows that we're a player now. We're not just a little program on the side. [ML] And we, in the discussion around

00:28:43.370 - 00:28:56.240

the name change from Women's Studies to Women and Gender Studies that also had been percolating for some time, and was presumed to be it was going to be a controversial decision.

00:28:56.240 - 00:29:06.410

And yet, when we had the vote it was actually 20 minutes around room. And it was like, "Yeah, we should do it." I wonder if you could speak a little bit more about why

00:29:06.410 - 00:29:13.550

that is such an important transition to make? To become a Women and Gender Studies department? [PB-H] Well, I mean, it speaks

00:29:13.550 - 00:29:21.270

to a national trend, right? I mean, most departments are changing out of the Women's Studies to some other configuration of terms.

00:29:21.270 - 00:29:29.330

So it puts us, it shows that we are following that trend, that we're rethinking our categories and our modes of analysis.

00:29:29.330 - 00:29:39.140

And we're getting past the focus on women, just women as women that could potentially be essentialist to think about

00:29:39.140 - 00:29:46.260

all these other aspects. And it's not to say that we're leaving aside the embodied individual

00:29:46.260 - 00:29:56.210

or the embodied collectivity. It means that we're bringing more ways of thinking about not just bodies, but also systems and

00:29:56.210 - 00:30:06.470

institutions and structures and histories and social forces. We're bringing them into conversation along with the national trend.

00:30:06.470 - 00:30:21.890

So a name change signifies something, but I'm not really sure if it already, because it's just last year. If it really actually

00:30:21.890 - 00:30:33.170

means something in practice yet, I think that will take time. [ML] And the other huge transition in the field of Women's Studies

00:30:33.170 - 00:30:45.840

over the last 15 years has been around addressing issues of diversity and women's experiences. I wonder what you think about it in terms of how those debates

00:30:45.840 - 00:30:54.410

have influenced Women's Studies here at University of Delaware? [PB-H] I'm not sure what the debates in Women's Studies here at

00:30:54.410 - 00:31:01.910

the University of Delaware. I don't know how much we're having active debates. I mean, my senses were just

00:31:01.910 - 00:31:11.990

teaching and having faculty meetings. But I don't get the feeling of like an active feminist intellectual collective thinking.

00:31:11.990 - 00:31:29.150

So I don't know where that is, I don't think I can answer that question. [ML] So how do you see Women's Studies in the interdisciplinary critique that you're

00:31:29.150 - 00:31:50.970

bringing into the field of International Relations and Transnational Studies? How do you see that influencing that field? Is it having an impact? [PB-H] You mean in the... [ML] In the larger global picture? [PB-H] Well, one of the ...

00:31:51.220 - 00:32:03.090

You can read my work from any of those angles, right? I mean, for Women's Studies, my work is offering a

00:32:03.090 - 00:32:13.220

methodological contribution in terms of how do we think about these really complicated issues of how internal armed conflict

00:32:13.220 - 00:32:23.870

plays out on the bodies of women. And that's the category I'm using for the study. And then for

00:32:23.870 - 00:32:36.070

people who work on transitional justice, armed conflict, human rights that are broadly understood within international relations. I'm forcing open a dialogue that,

00:32:36.070 - 00:32:44.030

you know, a lot of people might not be interested in, and that's okay, but I'm putting it out there and there are going to be people who are

00:32:44.030 - 00:32:52.580

interested in it and that, you know, those are the folks that I'll be moving my work forward with. And then for Latin Americanists,

00:32:52.580 - 00:33:04.210

or Peruvianists in particular, it's a similar thing. I'm making connections across different types of

00:33:04.210 - 00:33:19.120

critical frames to understand the roots of conflict that are feminist and that are offering, that are offering,

00:33:19.120 - 00:33:28.210

I guess interdisciplinary connections for them. So, and then, you know, more, practically speaking, I do look at, you know, some of

00:33:28.210 - 00:33:35.950

the more policy and advocacy oriented aspects. For example, what are the lessons learned from

00:33:35.950 - 00:33:41.980

the Peruvian Truth and Reconciliation Commission's methodological design. What was strong and

00:33:41.980 - 00:33:55.180

what didn't work really well, you know, so I have those kinds of, sort of policy suggestions around basically, how do you get beyond the addinsert model?

00:33:55.180 - 00:34:07.690

And how is that actually reinforcing a lot of the social hierarchies. And how do you try to get beyond the women as homogenous category in a

00:34:07.690 - 00:34:13.960

mythological designed to look at the impact of conflicts. How can you think about all these different types

00:34:13.960 - 00:34:26.950

of markers that impact people socially? How can you think about them together? [ML] And so this interaction is going two ways.

00:34:26.950 - 00:34:34.990

How do you think the field of Women's Studies has been impacted by transnational perspective? Is the critique sort of expanding

00:34:34.990 - 00:34:47.890

the dialogues of what is happening in women's lives, globally? So you think as a field, we are getting there? Or do we have a ways to go? Where do you think we're going with it? [PB-H] I think there's really,

00:34:47.890 - 00:34:58.750

really exciting work that's out there. And I think that scholars are definitely taking it, taking it to place where we're able

00:34:58.750 - 00:35:08.780

to get beyond the sort of feminist imperial frame. But in terms of the day-to-day teaching, for example,

00:35:08.780 - 00:35:18.290

Women's Studies in global context. It is a huge, huge, huge struggle to get students to come to understand that even

00:35:18.290 - 00:35:26.220

the way they think that we are going to study women and global contexts is already highly colonial. You know that they're going to get

00:35:26.220 - 00:35:33.200

a syllabus that says, you know, broken into regions of the world. And that we're going to study women in Latin America and we're

00:35:33.200 - 00:35:38.420

going to study women in Asia. And we're going to study women in the Middle East. And we're going to study women in Africa.

00:35:38.420 - 00:35:45.380

And all those poor women are so victimized. And over here we're really lucky and we have

00:35:45.380 - 00:35:53.960

so many rights and we don't have to study ourselves because we're really not in global context. Because we are we. So that,

00:35:53.960 - 00:36:02.570

that coming to even understand how they view the globe and think about women is it is the project of the class.

00:36:02.570 - 00:36:09.220

So thinking about how to do that, in ways that , don't just entrench them into their belief system

00:36:09.220 - 00:36:24.470

that invite them and provoke them and get them curious. [ML] So what do you do to invite them? How do you break through that? [PB-H] I haven't been entirely successful and I

00:36:24.470 - 00:36:32.880

think that shows in my teaching evaluations because I push them farther than they want to go a lot of times.

00:36:32.880 - 00:36:43.760

But I mean, after a couple years now, I've finally started to understand where they're at. And also students are

00:36:43.760 - 00:36:54.980

starting to know me and self-select. So I am getting progressively more and more a diverse classroom because students of color,

00:36:54.980 - 00:37:01.620

first-generation students, low-income students, immigrant students, are attracted to the way I teach.

00:37:01.620 - 00:37:08.470

So that's, I feel like I'm finally coming into something where I'm being, the students are self-selecting.

00:37:08.470 - 00:37:15.530

I'm coming to understand the students better and the environment, the particularities of this institution, and what kind of students come

00:37:15.530 - 00:37:24.620

to this institution so that we've really been able to take this issue really further. And I've come to see that framing it

00:37:24.620 - 00:37:34.850

in a way in which I can tell them. You're going to hear and learn about the stories of women's lives that you don't hear on

00:37:34.850 - 00:37:43.040

the nightly news and that you don't see in the newspaper, and you're not going to necessarily get an internet alert from Fox.

00:37:43.040 - 00:37:50.300

You're going to hear the stories of women's lives. from the women who don't get heard. And it doesn't mean they're victims,

00:37:50.300 - 00:37:55.340

it just means that there are systems in place where some stories get heard and some stories don't.

00:37:55.340 - 00:38:04.690

So it's really started to work better that way of framing it as multiple stories. And that if we get stuck in the single story,

00:38:04.690 - 00:38:15.050

and I use Chimamanda Adichie. She does this really, really good TED talk on single story. Then we are doing a violence.

00:38:15.050 - 00:38:24.290

And just as much as we don't like being read as a single story and just being seen for our stereotypes, other people don't

00:38:24.290 - 00:38:32.330

like it either, right? So I tried to get them to think about their social positioning, have them do a lot of research and

00:38:32.330 - 00:38:41.270

analysis around their social positioning, both qualitative and quantitative. And work in peer groups so that they come to know other people's stories and

00:38:41.270 - 00:38:51.320

they come to understand the multiple stories, even just in the classroom, around migration, around class, around sexuality, around lived experiences,

00:38:51.320 - 00:38:59.900

whether they're divorce or they're mental health issues or military service or incarceration. And how those are connected to

00:38:59.900 - 00:39:12.620

macro issues such as colonialism or, you know, patterns of migration, both forced and voluntary that we study in the class, diaspora.

00:39:12.620 - 00:39:21.770

So then they can start seeing how there's both multiple stories in the classroom and then exponentially in the world.

00:39:21.770 - 00:39:39.820

And hopefully that'll help us break out of the colonial gaze. [ML] And so the global can become local? [PB-H] Yeah. [ML] So what do you think about in terms of what we need to still address here in Women's Studies

00:39:39.820 - 00:39:54.180

at the University of Delaware, in terms of where we're going for the next 5 or 10 years? [PB-H] I think, I think we need to revisit our strategic planning retreat

00:39:54.180 - 00:40:00.380

and what came out of that, because I feel like so much really rich and important work was done and we

00:40:00.380 - 00:40:09.930

did get on a really good roll. And I feel like at this point it's all very fuzzy for me, and I don't know,

00:40:09.930 - 00:40:21.950

I imagine other people might feel that way too, like I think it could really help for us to revisit that material and in the light of these last couple years,

00:40:21.950 - 00:40:36.680

establish a good collective vision. It's in the making as a new department. But obviously there's some elements. The transnational element seems to

00:40:36.680 - 00:40:44.090

have almost no student interest. So I don't know really what to say about that. Even though it's a trend in the field,

00:40:44.090 - 00:40:54.240

it isn't an area of interest for students. So, you know, that's something to collectively ponder and determine where to go with it.

00:40:54.240 - 00:41:02.000

The student interest in the concentration is not surprising. And then how can we continue that after the three years or

00:41:02.000 - 00:41:07.820

over with the funding is very critical, right. I'm sure that's already sort of being thought through,

00:41:07.820 - 00:41:18.130

but not, you know, in particular committees or something. And I think that the Sexuality and Gender Studies minor

00:41:18.130 - 00:41:27.380

is still sort of awkwardly positioned under the department. And there needs to be some reworking to make

00:41:27.380 - 00:41:37.590

that's fit more streamline. And that may happen in the next few years. And then the other thing that I think is really significant too

00:41:37.590 - 00:41:53.180

is the level to which students live in cyberspace and how we can anchor that and use that in our teaching so that we

00:41:53.180 - 00:42:02.520

can connect with them where they are. And I'm really interested in that. And I know Barbara Leigh has already launched a class around that.

00:42:02.520 - 00:42:09.570

And I'm going to launch a class Cyber Feminism, which is going to be very activist, project driven.

00:42:09.570 - 00:42:19.240

So I know students already, they identify many problems, feminist issues in cyberspace, and that they will

00:42:19.240 - 00:42:29.360

really be able to benefit from a forum, to be able to collectively think about these problems, prepare a very strategic intervention,

00:42:29.360 - 00:42:39.890

and then actually implement it. [ML] Do you use a lot of technology in your class? [PB-H] No, but I will, and that's also an opportunity for me to grow as

00:42:39.890 - 00:42:46.640

a teacher and update myself. I mean, I figure that students will teach me just as much that I'll be teaching them.

00:42:46.640 - 00:42:56.840

I'll be teaching them the ways to think about things in the frameworks and the models. But there'll be really bringing the content [ML] A collaborative class?

00:42:56.840 - 00:43:07.040

[PB-H] Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. [ML] So in 2010, as we talked about, Women's Studies here, achieved departmental status.

00:43:07.040 - 00:43:22.730

At the same time that Women's Studies departments across the country are closing down, why do you think we have been able to persist when others have had to shut their doors?

00:43:22.730 - 00:43:32.960

[PB-H] My read of that is very much related to the financial standing of the institution. And that comparatively, University of Delaware has been able to

00:43:32.960 - 00:43:41.690

float and not sink as much as other institutions. And the institutions I'm familiar with that have

00:43:41.690 - 00:43:54.050

"consolidated" or closed have done it because of the financial issues that they were facing and that their states or facing, right.

00:43:54.050 - 00:44:03.830

And I think, you know, Delaware as a state, has also been able to navigate this choppy economic national waters

00:44:03.830 - 00:44:11.780

or global waters pretty well. Therefore, University of Delaware hasn't been as impacted. So I think that to me,

00:44:11.780 - 00:44:18.950

it has everything to do with that because the fact that interdisciplinary programs of the first ones to get

00:44:18.950 - 00:44:28.330

cut is definitely a given. And I think University of Delaware, if it was in that position, would do the same thing.

00:44:28.330 - 00:44:35.240

I don't think there's necessarily something special about University of Delaware in which they would particularly want to

00:44:35.240 - 00:44:45.060

save Women's Studies in comparison to Sociology, right? I mean, it's, that's where the programs get cut.

00:44:45.060 - 00:44:55.670

Those small programs that a lot of them are just programs. We're a department but. And they're the ones that were fought hard for,

00:44:55.670 - 00:45:05.330

to get an edge for other voices to be told in academia. [ML] And you mention interdisciplinary work, which the University

00:45:05.330 - 00:45:16.970

does seem to have some sort of commitment to. Well, we'll see. But you're engaged with the hemispheric dialogues research cluster. What does that involve?

00:45:16.970 - 00:45:35.310

What was that about? What do you do there? [PB-H] That is a collective intellectual community space where seven of us tenure-track faculty,

00:45:36.130 - 00:45:48.810

either from the United States of Latino heritage or Latin-American. Get together and read each other's work and comment.

00:45:48.810 - 00:45:57.560

Or we choose a couple texts, and different moments to read and comment and discuss. And the common theme among us

00:45:57.560 - 00:46:08.570

is a preoccupation with social justice in the Americas. So one of the things that, that may not be as obvious is the fact

00:46:08.570 - 00:46:18.730

that there's great differences between the ways in which academia functions in Latin America and the United States,

00:46:18.730 - 00:46:32.330

and the ways in which geography is mapped and power relations occur in terms of intellectual production. And I guess you could say

00:46:32.330 - 00:46:42.500

the geopolitics of knowledge production is different. And coming together between, I guess, the six of us,

00:46:42.500 - 00:46:52.340

three Latin Americanists, (corrects herself) Latin Americans and three U.S. Latinas, the conversations, those tensions become very, very evident and we can

00:46:52.340 - 00:47:01.350

theorize those tensions. And that's very rich. It's very rich and very exciting. Not to mention, you know,

00:47:01.350 - 00:47:13.250

Art History, Education, Women's Studies, English, Anthropology, Political Science. So we're all coming from different disciplinary sort of trainings.

00:47:13.250 - 00:47:22.040

And then we always have to translate ourselves to each other, in terms of how we're thinking about questions and issues.

00:47:22.040 - 00:47:35.750

So it is, to me it is sort of, the one intellectually rejuvenating space that I can be part of. And, and it helps.

00:47:35.750 - 00:47:44.580

It really helps in terms of not always having to go to a conference to find those spaces, but there is something like that,

00:47:44.580 - 00:47:52.730

something we can meet a couple times a semester and really engage each other on that level. Beyond, you know, teaching

00:47:52.730 - 00:48:11.540

and service duties and running here to there to there. [ML] Is there anything else you've thought of that we haven't discussed? [PB-H] I think it would be

00:48:11.540 - 00:48:19.100

interesting to know more about from students' perspectives why they declare the major. Do you have anything on that?

00:48:19.100 - 00:48:30.730

What have students told you? [ML] I think it's a real mix for different students. But it is that sort of moment of revelation when they realize that this is a,

00:48:30.730 - 00:48:42.490

this is a, a major that makes sense of their lives in a lot of ways. So your experiences as a young woman of not fitting,

00:48:42.490 - 00:48:51.710

and not having a lens to understand why that was. We're providing them, I think, with that lens that I think allows them to sort of

00:48:51.710 - 00:49:04.910

say, "Oh. Yeah, that makes sense now." And from there they can develop the different critiques and lenses to really try and make sense of the different moments of

00:49:04.910 - 00:49:15.170

experiences, and make that work. So we're giving them that sort of kaleidoscope image of taking all that

00:49:15.170 - 00:49:22.940

mixed-up messages and all of a sudden bringing some clarity to it that I don't think they get elsewhere. [PB-H] And that you have to really

00:49:22.940 - 00:49:32.390

really scrounge and search for even if you are a Women's Studies major. And I think back for me, I mean,

00:49:32.390 - 00:49:43.730

I had the privilege in the late 1980s and early 1990s to take Intro to Feminism with Bettina Apthecker, Feminist Theory with Wendy Brown,

00:49:43.730 - 00:49:58.010

and Feminist Methods with Donna Haraway. Yeah, I mean, my brain was blown every single class. I mean, I could

00:49:58.010 - 00:50:06.860

barely understand anything ever. I mean, Bettina Aptheker you can understand. But Wendy Brown, it was her first semester teaching.

00:50:06.860 - 00:50:17.190

She had just graduated from Princeton. And the course packet was seriously a phonebook for ten weeks, for a quarter.

00:50:17.190 - 00:50:27.320

And I just could not believe it. I could not believe what the heck was going on here. And it was wonderful, you know,

00:50:27.320 - 00:50:35.910

and no one ever questioned her or anybody. It was like, "You need to step up to this." and you either do it or you don't.

00:50:35.910 - 00:50:47.780

And I think that's the part, the seriousness and rigor demanded, I think is the particularity, the way in which Women's Studies

00:50:47.780 - 00:50:57.800

was established there. And that's, I think that's the part where I've had to really adjust to understand the particularities

00:50:57.800 - 00:51:06.020

of the way Women's Studies functions for UD and the expectations of the students and all of that. It's just such a different world.

00:51:06.020 - 00:51:11.040

So it's been a process. [ML] Thank you very much.