00:00:00.000 - 00:00:17.100

[Mae Carter] You can move the lamp, if you want. [Marie Laberge] No, I'm going to sit right here, and we're all set. [ML] So. [MC] You can move that up. [ML] So, this is July 19th,

00:00:17.100 - 00:00:27.250

I believe? [MC] Yes. [ML] And I'm sitting here, Marie Laberge with Mae Carter. Talking about her extraordinary life. So thank you for welcoming me into your home.

00:00:27.250 - 00:00:35.000

[MC] Well, it's a pleasure to have you. [ML] I did want to start the interview process with thinking about your

00:00:35.000 - 00:00:44.090

sort of very early background, and sort of what you were doing before you came to Delaware, which is why some of these earlier questions on when you arrived in

00:00:44.090 - 00:00:53.120

Delaware and what brought you here about what you were doing before you came to Delaware? [MC] Well, we're from California

00:00:53.120 - 00:01:01.620

and we lived in Walnut Creek, although I was born in Berkeley and spent most of my life in Berkeley.

00:01:03.790 - 00:01:14.780

I graduated from University of California in Home Economics, which is what women had to do in those days.

00:01:14.780 - 00:01:26.760

It could be Nursing, or Home Economics, or Teaching. And I was not happy in that major. But who had any money

00:01:26.760 - 00:01:40.490

to take an extra semester, in those days. It was during the war. I was in the Class of 1943, I was active on the campus, and I was a member print name,

00:01:40.490 - 00:01:57.140

which is like Mortar Board in Berkeley. And I worked a year at Shell Development. During the war, everyone was expected to

00:01:57.140 - 00:02:11.030

work in a defense industry. And then, I married Bob. [ML] What year did you marry? [MC] My husband, Bob Carter, who went to UCLA and came up,

00:02:11.030 - 00:02:24.890

and worked in an oil refinery there. We lived in Berkeley for a short time, but then his job required him to live in a

00:02:24.890 - 00:02:47.200

company house at the refinery. It was a village of 52 houses. And the house had, was made of board and batten, but it was only one thickness, thick, so if you

00:02:47.200 - 00:03:03.590

put a nail in the wall, it went through. Anyway, we lived there, and the war ended, and I joined the University women's group in Martinez.

00:03:03.750 - 00:03:22.400

Well, Concord started growing, and so we started a new group over there. Then after 7 years, his job changed and we

00:03:22.400 - 00:03:31.970

could move out and we moved to, we built our house. I mean, we had our house built with an architect. Having lived in

00:03:31.970 - 00:03:42.620

a company house for a long time, we found an architect, and a landscape gardener. And we really wanted...

00:03:42.620 - 00:03:52.350

It was on the side of the hill. We had a gorgeous view, and we worked very hard to do the landscaping.

00:03:52.690 - 00:04:11.410

And after 5 years there... Well, our children were born in the village. After 5 years there, when I had been PTA president and I was

00:04:11.410 - 00:04:22.390

also on regional council PTA. And in fact, I was running for the school board when we were transferred.

00:04:22.390 - 00:04:34.440

So we came to Delaware in August of 1956. Well, they were just starting up the refinery.

00:04:34.440 - 00:04:54.380

So Bob was working 12 hours a day, usually 7 days a week. So I joined AUW here because I was a little lonely. Because there

00:04:54.380 - 00:05:06.620

was no support system for wives at that time. There were a few people transferred from California and I was not

00:05:06.620 - 00:05:18.590

interested in the same things that they were interested in. You can only play so much bridge. Anyway, then we did

00:05:18.590 - 00:05:28.280

a library study for AUW because the town library was in terrible shape. I'm sorry, we started

00:05:28.280 - 00:05:42.440

with school libraries first. They were only open maybe one afternoon every second week. Well the library wasn't very good.

00:05:42.440 - 00:05:59.270

And I think there was one librarian for the whole school district. So that's not very conducive to studying. Anyway, we did a study and actually

00:05:59.270 - 00:06:14.570

won a national award for. Then I was president of AUW here. And we also did earlier, we did the 8th grade college tea

00:06:14.570 - 00:06:27.110

with the... Well actually, it was the College of Home Economics at Alison Hall. I have to take a drink of water.

00:06:27.110 - 00:06:43.670

[ML] Absolutely. [MC] We also ran Dorothy Munroe for the school board and she was elected.

00:06:43.670 - 00:07:01.580

And we were very active at that time and there were a lot of really great women in that group. Anyway, we worked on

00:07:01.580 - 00:07:25.150

forming a Friends for the town library. Then... we... I'm trying to think exactly the sequence here. We studied the town library,

00:07:25.150 - 00:07:38.630

which was... I think it was at that time in the basement, a dark basement. And Mrs. Sinclair who had retired was the first librarian,

00:07:38.630 - 00:07:50.450

was a librarian and she only worked long enough so she didn't earn her, so she didn't impinge on her Social Security limit.

00:07:50.450 - 00:08:02.210

So it was an open very much, maybe 3 days a week. Maybe. And the books were all donated. So we needed

00:08:02.210 - 00:08:16.670

to do something, because at that time people could go to the University Library. But then that was closed off. It was a memorial library and

00:08:16.670 - 00:08:26.800

people donated to it, but then the University started growing and they felt that they needed an academic library,

00:08:26.800 - 00:08:39.860

which of course they did. So anyway, we worked on that and we looked at it carefully and we saw that Newark was being taxed twice,

00:08:39.860 - 00:08:49.450

once by the county and once by the school district. But we got nothing from the county. So we had... There were 4 of us

00:08:49.450 - 00:09:02.090

that worked together and we had to get the county councilman. We invited him for lunch. We had to invite him twice for lunch,

00:09:02.090 - 00:09:15.550

but he saw the light and he became really a strong supporter of libraries. He just wasn't aware of before. Anyway, naturally from California,

00:09:15.550 - 00:09:27.440

I thought we had to have a bond issued. nd they told me, "No, no, no. You go to the foundations." So we got money from

00:09:27.440 - 00:09:38.870

the Cristo Foundation and we finally got on the board a Walter Dew, who was head of the allocation for donations

00:09:38.870 - 00:09:52.580

for the DuPont Company. And he retired. And of course he knew everybody, in like the Longwood Foundation

00:09:52.580 - 00:10:04.180

and the Cristo Foundation. So anyway, we made him in charge of money raising and he was happy to do it. And we got more money.

00:10:04.180 - 00:10:17.890

We got money from the state. We got money from the federal government as well as the county. And finally,

00:10:17.890 - 00:10:34.060

the present building, before the expansion, was built. And that was very exciting because We started with very little.

00:10:34.060 - 00:10:46.320

Anyway, so they called the 4 of us that worked on that. For years are called the "Bookend Set" the Newark Free Library.

00:10:46.320 - 00:11:01.730

So 2 of them have died and 2 of us are still left. I'm get... I'm in much too much detail. Anyway, after that

00:11:01.730 - 00:11:10.270

was accomplished and I'd been president of AUW, and we'd done a lot of things, I heard about this job.

00:11:10.270 - 00:11:29.660

Actually, at that time it was extension. They had a grant, a title one, 1965 to assist women to return to school. So I finally applied for it.

00:11:29.660 - 00:11:41.870

I didn't really want to work full-time. So. Well, and of course, the other thing, both our daughters had gone off to college. So it was time to do something else.

00:11:41.870 - 00:11:51.420

Anyway, I applied for the job, and I got the job, and I started out part-time. And I did educational counseling for women.

00:11:51.420 - 00:12:03.680

Now that was helping them get back into school and understanding what they had, what was required. A lot of women at that time

00:12:03.680 - 00:12:12.620

had interrupted their education to get married, and their husbands were transferred. At that time,

00:12:12.620 - 00:12:23.930

it was a DuPont state, and a lot of transfers. And so a lot of them wanted to finish their degree, but it was hard to get back into college.

00:12:23.930 - 00:12:46.670

So you could take three courses, I think it was, and get a B or better. And then, I think you, I think they skipped the SATs and so,

00:12:46.670 - 00:12:54.460

and then we could, of course, transfer some courses from their other universities. So it would...

00:12:54.460 - 00:13:10.030

We were really busy. And we had that program, "Three To Get Ready" where you look at the physiological,

00:13:10.030 - 00:13:26.890

sociological... let's see what was the other one? Well, anyway, we looked at different aspects to help women make a decision.

00:13:26.890 - 00:13:34.510

Now some of the women decided to and they'd come in for counseling and we would get them, start them in

00:13:34.510 - 00:13:52.070

the right course And some decided not to. But the important part turned out to be the discussion groups after the presentation. And we had small groups,

00:13:52.070 - 00:14:04.040

well, I don't know, maybe 15 and the women supported each other. I'll never get there was one woman who only gets, who only got

00:14:04.040 - 00:14:13.970

an allowance that barely covered the food and new clothes. And the other women were shocked that her husband didn't... You know that

00:14:13.970 - 00:14:26.760

gave her a lot of support. It's very important to have that group support. So that was where I was.

00:14:26.760 - 00:14:35.870

But also there was no vocational counselling in the state at that time. So I kind of turned into that.

00:14:35.870 - 00:14:58.370

I had a good supply of places and ideas. And like some woman would come in and say, "You know, my husband left me and I have 2 children and I'm 55 years old.

00:14:58.370 - 00:15:10.040

I have never worked and I have to support myself. He even took the insurance." So I'd try to find out what they had done.

00:15:10.040 - 00:15:24.580

Had they ever been a treasurer of a bazaar, or bridge group, or something that we could build on. And it was... it was hard because

00:15:24.580 - 00:15:34.040

those women had done everything society had told them to do. They played tennis, they played bridge, they wen to luncheons. You know, they did all that,

00:15:34.040 - 00:15:50.960

but that didn't help them get a job. So we had to be creative in our thinking. And I also had a list of lawyers

00:15:50.960 - 00:16:01.030

if were supportive of women. You know, one woman said, "Well, my husband and I have the same lawyer. I know he'll take care me."

00:16:01.030 - 00:16:18.380

I said, "You've got to change. Here's a list of three lawyers. Think about it, okay?" So I used to get all these problems and so...

00:16:18.380 - 00:16:30.170

Pretty soon I counseled men too. They wanted counseling. And we had this course about how to study for women. And then the men wanted that, so we got that for them.

00:16:30.170 - 00:16:36.950

Of course, what's good for women, is good for men too. But sometimes people don't always see that.

00:16:36.950 - 00:16:53.050

So anyway, it just got to the point where I couldn't do all this stuff in addition to my regular job. So we talked to

00:16:53.050 - 00:17:07.450

the President and Janet Sam did a lot, who was the affirmative action person at that time. And anyway, they finally

00:17:07.450 - 00:17:21.670

appointed a commission and they appointed me as a chairperson. So that's how I got to be it. Well, so the first thing that was...

00:17:21.670 - 00:17:33.810

The first meetings took a while for us to know everybody because we had a Dean, we had two faculty, we had students, we had staff people.

00:17:33.810 - 00:17:46.730

Staff people had a lot of complaints. There was a two-tier level of benefits including vacation days,

00:17:46.730 - 00:17:56.100

and sick days, and health insurance. And also they were not allowed to eat in the faculty dining room.

00:17:56.100 - 00:18:06.680

And they were very upset that there was no place on campus for them to have lunch. Well, that's the kind of thing I was trying to deal with.

00:18:06.680 - 00:18:20.780

And of course, well, people had to talk a little bit and what they found out is that there's different salary schedules

00:18:20.780 - 00:18:27.930

in different departments. They found out all kinds of interesting things. Well, that took a couple of

00:18:27.930 - 00:18:38.850

meetings and it took us almost a year and a half or two years to make our first report. [ML] Then that's the Commission on the Status of Women

00:18:38.850 - 00:18:44.360

or was that that early committee that was created? [MC] No, I was not on that committee. [ML] Okay.

00:18:44.360 - 00:18:53.960

[MC] That was the Commission on the Status of Women. [ML] Okay. And you were brought in... So the Commission on the Status of Women

00:18:53.960 - 00:19:02.570

was started in 1973 or 1974 somewhere around that time. Earlier than that, you were also part of the

00:19:02.570 - 00:19:11.360

the committee that was exploring the education on women? [MC] Oh, Women's Studies. Yeah, yeah. In fact, I got to be chairperson of that committee because I had

00:19:11.360 - 00:19:21.870

a secretary and she could type up the agendas and type up everything. But not only that,

00:19:21.870 - 00:19:31.950

faculty women were told to get out of Women's Studies because they would not get promoted if they concentrated on women.

00:19:31.990 - 00:19:46.700

And I remember... well, Sue Steinmetz talked about how she couldn't get an adviser for her doctorate because she wanted to do it

00:19:46.700 - 00:19:57.470

on women. They said it wasn't important. And also, well... Most of them, a lot of the women were un-tenured women who were

00:19:57.470 - 00:20:10.220

really active in Women's Studies. And so we went to... I would meet with the President periodically. So I would take

00:20:10.220 - 00:20:23.050

different tenured women with me, only tenured, you understand. So anyway, Barbara Kelly was with me this time, and we said to the President,

00:20:23.050 - 00:20:33.620

"You know, it's really hard to get Women's Studies underway because faculty are told to get out." And he said, "Oh, I don't believe that."

00:20:33.620 - 00:20:47.420

So Barbara says, "I've been told to get out of it." So I guess you get the idea of what it was like in those days.

00:20:47.420 - 00:20:59.210

It was very difficult. One of the ways, we started Women's Studies. Well, I would print a brochure like that

00:20:59.210 - 00:21:05.780

and I'd put Women's Studies, but they were non-credit courses. I put Women's Studies so the University might even think about

00:21:05.780 - 00:21:16.260

Women's Studies. Not that I thought they were really Women's Studies. But we had women in the law, women and money.

00:21:16.260 - 00:21:21.500

[ML] These are the questions that you had from Continuing Ed that you were doing? The extension program? [MC] Yeah.

00:21:21.500 - 00:21:28.950

[ML] So they're courses in the extension program that you're sort of calling Women's Studies. [MC] Yeah, such as it was. [ML] Right.

00:21:28.950 - 00:21:43.900

I knew it wasn't. But then we decided... Adele Robertson was head of the academic part because we had control

00:21:43.900 - 00:21:51.870

of the academic courses that were not on the campus. So anyway, she said, "I think we ought to go

00:21:51.870 - 00:22:03.850

to different departments and ask if they will give a course on women." So she took 2 and I took 2 And we were successful with

00:22:03.850 - 00:22:21.200

the English department and we were also successful with the History department that they would do it. And well, you know,

00:22:21.200 - 00:22:35.030

one was a Ph.D. student and the other was Barbara Gates who had just been hired and she was, had to do it on overtime. In other words,

00:22:35.030 - 00:22:46.310

she had an S-contract. So anyway, we got that going. It was in the department, but it was

00:22:46.310 - 00:23:01.070

Women in Literature, or something like that. And they didn't want their regular faculty teaching it, you know, but we really did a lot.

00:23:01.070 - 00:23:13.970

The commission did a lot to raise awareness and I think I showed you some of the things. We had a small budget.

00:23:13.970 - 00:23:24.030

However, I got to do it in addition to my regular job. Well, you know, there's only so many hours you can work.

00:23:24.030 - 00:23:35.900

I mean, I worked a lot of extra hours and I started going to faculty senate meetings because that's where a lot

00:23:35.900 - 00:23:44.540

of policies were made. And we had a secretary the faculty senate the pardon me, well,

00:23:44.540 - 00:23:57.380

the staff person Barbara... I can't think of her last name just this minute. Anyway, she would alert us

00:23:57.380 - 00:24:03.970

if something was coming up, especially. Once in a while, we could change a couple of words and it would make a difference,

00:24:03.970 - 00:24:11.590

you know, and it didn't matter to them, and they agreed to it. I mean, I didn't ever speak. I just sat there.

00:24:11.590 - 00:24:21.650

Well, it got to the point where, you know, it was very effective to just sit there. [ML] Because they knew you were watching them. [MC] That's right.

00:24:21.650 - 00:24:41.540

I was just helping them. Anyway, the commission had the power of the President. And so, and we

00:24:41.540 - 00:24:50.420

reported directly to the President. And we went once a year. And naturally everyone had a section to report on to the President.

00:24:50.420 - 00:25:05.180

[ML] And this was President Trabant, right? [MC] Oh, yes. He was very supportive, I have to say. And his wife, Jerry, talks about the time that she was,

00:25:05.180 - 00:25:13.520

found out she wasn't a member of the human race. She tried to enter graduate school at another university,

00:25:13.520 - 00:25:25.180

when he was there. Before he came to Delaware and she wasn't admitted. So he pursued it because he knew her grades were good,

00:25:25.180 - 00:25:34.130

and she should have been admitted. And they finally admitted "because she was a woman." So she's been very supportive

00:25:34.130 - 00:25:49.050

and he's been supportive. Of course, he's from California. He grew up there too. He grew up in the Los Angeles area. Anyway. So the commission, the idea of the commission

00:25:49.050 - 00:25:54.720

was it would take all these things out of Women's Studies because everything was going into Women's Studies.

00:25:54.720 - 00:26:00.780

Of course, I was still Chair of the Women's Studies committee administering it. Not oh, I guess I

00:26:00.780 - 00:26:11.690

gave one or two lectures in it, but that's all. Anyway, so everybody was good for that first course in

00:26:11.690 - 00:26:27.750

Women's Studies and Lindy Geiss, which really... She was doing research on women before most people even thought about it. And we got,

00:26:28.110 - 00:26:41.660

well, we knew a lot of people need one or two credits. So we gave a one or two. credit course and Sally Van name did it.

00:26:41.660 - 00:26:58.080

And Sally Van Camp, There were a couple people that did it. So we did that for a while, you know, to keep it going.

00:26:58.080 - 00:27:06.070

Well, of course you have to understand there was no way we could get a Women's Studies number. We had a hard time getting

00:27:06.070 - 00:27:17.150

any course number. So they gave us a Special Problem number. So we were Special Problem course. But in the meantime, you know,

00:27:17.150 - 00:27:27.380

you really get to know a lot of people as you go visit the Dean. And he said, "Well, it's not our priority." And we talked to the President

00:27:27.380 - 00:27:33.950

about sexual harassment. And he... he tried. You know, he talked to people, and thought we needed a policy.

00:27:33.950 - 00:27:45.500

And you saw the article. Well, faculty said, "Absolutely not. You have to tell us all about it and you're

00:27:45.500 - 00:27:57.260

not going to make that public." So, well after that we decided I get it mixed up a little bit between

00:27:57.260 - 00:28:06.000

the commission and the Office of Women's Affairs. But anyway, we decided we needed to do some education.

00:28:06.010 - 00:28:24.470

So we would buy a quarter-page ad in the Review and we had three of them, I think. One, "What is sexual harassment?" The second one was

00:28:24.470 - 00:28:38.870

"Why women don't report it." And the third one, ran three weeks, was "What you can do about it." And the first time we

00:28:38.870 - 00:28:51.830

had one or two co-sponsors. The second time we had a lot of co-sponsors and it kept adding. I mean, like Student Affairs,

00:28:51.830 - 00:29:03.390

they weren't going to do anything like that. "What do you mean sexual harassment?" Anyway, there we are educating people.

00:29:03.390 - 00:29:13.940

And in the meantime, Jeanette Stam who had left the University and worked for the Office of Civil Rights, wrote the policy for

00:29:13.940 - 00:29:21.800

sexual harassment for the Office of Civil Rights. So what she said is, "I knew what to put in it

00:29:21.800 - 00:29:33.410

because I'd been harassed at Delaware." So anyway, that was when it came up to the Faculty Senate to put in the faculty handbook.

00:29:33.410 - 00:29:45.290

And as I said before, they spent the whole meeting, about two hours, on the wording and the Provost

00:29:45.290 - 00:29:57.800

is sitting there saying, "It's the law. We don't have a choice." Well, they decided to adjourn the meeting and

00:29:57.800 - 00:30:08.980

then the next... They called another meeting and after a short discussion, they passed it. But that gives you an idea of what it was

00:30:08.980 - 00:30:24.110

like in those days. And I know a lot of women faculty told me how bad it was when they were interviewed like... They didn't want

00:30:24.110 - 00:30:38.360

me to do anything about it, but they wanted me to know. Like, "What kind of contraceptive do you use?" I know another situation

00:30:38.360 - 00:30:52.640

when the nepotism changed, the rule changed a husband and wife are both hiring at the University in different areas. And the wife's supervisor made sure that he

00:30:52.640 - 00:31:02.580

always earned more than she did regardless of her competency. So, you know, you're trying to deal with that, and it's difficult,

00:31:02.580 - 00:31:11.810

and I'm sure it's difficult to look back. But anyway. [ML] This is, according to those flyers, in the late 1970s, even.

00:31:11.810 - 00:31:17.030

And so you think this is sort of a little further because those hearings on the, those articles on sexual harassment,

00:31:17.030 - 00:31:23.150

were in the mid to late 1970s. So it's kind of interesting. The timing. If you think by then

00:31:23.150 - 00:31:33.120

they would have got it. [MC] Well, those articles were when it first, didn't happen. It was not an issue if you recall that headline. [ML] That's true.

00:31:33.120 - 00:31:46.880

[MC] But the students were active and we brought a lot of national speakers to the campus. And we used to have

00:31:46.880 - 00:32:00.950

an all-women's meeting, an all UD women's meeting. I can't remember the exact title of what we called it. And we would try to have

00:32:00.950 - 00:32:14.710

a really top speaker and we would provide dessert and beverages. So, but when we brought a national speaker or person,

00:32:14.710 - 00:32:24.340

the President would give a breakfast for his administrative staff to meet with her. And then at lunchtime,

00:32:24.340 - 00:32:38.000

we worked them hard. We had a meeting of about 8 maybe 10 people who were, whose discipline was related to theirs.

00:32:38.000 - 00:32:45.560

And I really think that awareness made a big difference because those women didn't care. They weren't too careful about

00:32:45.560 - 00:32:55.460

what they had to say to anybody and they, you saw this one flyer, that they were, you know, important women.

00:32:55.460 - 00:33:14.320

So anyway, we worked hard and pretty soon, well it just got too much. I just couldn't do it. And we had Phyllis Adams,

00:33:14.320 - 00:33:27.140

who with absolutely wonderful as an administrative assistant who started part-time, buts he finally decided to work

00:33:27.140 - 00:33:47.980

full-time when we established the Office of Women's Affairs. And when we... we had to have an office. Well, the commission had an office

00:33:47.980 - 00:34:01.220

in the current building where you're in now, but it was unpainted. The paint was coming off and we got the furniture from the surplus.

00:34:01.890 - 00:34:18.710

And when we... Oh. We decided we just had to... women needed more, Oh, we would have informal coffee hours

00:34:18.710 - 00:34:31.950

for tenured faculty and the untenured, tenured and, you know, different people. And of course that exchange was very important. This is before the union came in.

00:34:31.950 - 00:34:52.240

And there are very different criteria in different departments, different salaries. So we knew who got the most money, which area, which college got the most money.

00:34:52.240 - 00:35:11.960

Anyway, at that time with the commission, we requested a report by department for tenured, tenured and tenure-track,

00:35:11.960 - 00:35:29.050

of how many students male, female, and how many students, I mean faculty male, female. I guess how many of them were non-tenure track.

00:35:29.050 - 00:35:43.180

I'm trying to think, well, how many majors they had. We used to get a memo every year from Frank Dilley saying, "They

00:35:43.180 - 00:35:53.890

were really a service department even though they didn't have very many majors in Philosophy." And of course, we would distribute it

00:35:53.890 - 00:36:10.690

around the University and to the Board of Trustees. So it got... So we would figure out the number of male students to

00:36:10.690 - 00:36:21.320

male faculty, and the number of female students to female faculty. And you know, for female faculty at that time, I can't remember the exact number,

00:36:21.320 - 00:36:41.360

but with about 23 to 1. And for male students, it was like about 11 to 1. Pointing that out. So we did a lot for awareness.

00:36:41.360 - 00:36:49.580

Anyway, it just got so... I'm trying to do this in addition to my regular job. And I didn't get release time,

00:36:49.580 - 00:37:10.680

like faculty might. So anyway, a point at We had... we formed and committee and we had Edith Anderson on it. Nursing. Bonnie Scott.

00:37:10.680 - 00:37:25.930

Lindy [Geiss], maybe Deanie Klinsing, I mean, you know, people from around the University. I mean, I'd have to look that up to be sure. But anyway, we formed

00:37:25.930 - 00:37:38.200

that committee and we made a proposal to form the Office of Women's Affairs because, you know, the President was sending out surveys to report for us to do.

00:37:38.200 - 00:37:48.870

And, you know, you can't do all that. Because I didn't have flexibility in hours either.

00:37:48.870 - 00:38:02.510

So anyway, after four proposals. Well, when you have somebody from the English department, you know, they change it. [ML] That's right, just keep re-wording it.

00:38:02.510 - 00:38:19.640

[MC] Well, we finally got it good enough so that we could give it to the President. And the President accepted it.

00:38:19.640 - 00:38:29.180

I think he sent it back a couple times. So we finally got it. But he said, "I'd have to report to the Provost and you can

00:38:29.180 - 00:38:39.200

report to me too, as Executive Director of the commission." I have a memo here if you want to see it. I wasn't sure I wanted to

00:38:39.200 - 00:38:50.250

report to them Provost because he did have a difficult reputation. It worked out fine. He was easy to work for.

00:38:50.320 - 00:39:02.210

So I was at the Provost staff every week and I would hear about these grants coming up that would be available.

00:39:02.210 - 00:39:10.660

So, you know, I'd figure out which department the women needed to know because their department Chair often didn't tell them.

00:39:10.660 - 00:39:26.600

So they could do that. That's the kind of thing you have to do. And also we had every week in the Review we had a small

00:39:26.600 - 00:39:40.200

little notice about "And the fact is" and we would print statistics from the Labor Department and from the State, from impeccable bases.

00:39:40.200 - 00:39:51.640

And I know people did read that because we didn't get it in one week, for some reason I can't remember, and they asked me where it was.

00:39:51.640 - 00:40:04.870

So I felt good about that. So anyway, when we got the commission, I'm telling you about, more about the commission,

00:40:04.870 - 00:40:20.100

you probably want to know more about Women's Studies. [ML] Well, at some point we'll get to Women's Studies. [MC] I can't remember what I was just saying.

00:40:20.100 - 00:40:31.220

[ML] When the commission was sort of working. After you got the Office of Women's Affairs. [MC] Oh, yes. We decided we needed more role models

00:40:31.220 - 00:40:39.210

because of the research. You know, it helps to have women and they didn't have them in the faculty. So we put in

00:40:39.210 - 00:40:49.900

a proposal for the Visiting Women Scholars Fund. And we would give any department $200 toward bringing a woman scholar.

00:40:49.900 - 00:41:00.840

No questions asked. Well, they had to be academic. [ML] Right. [MC] But, So all of a sudden,

00:41:00.840 - 00:41:11.220

departments didn't think the Office of Women's Affairs was so dumb. Everybody knew our phone number and we got a lot of calls.

00:41:11.220 - 00:41:18.600

And one department said, "You know, we never even thought of bringing a woman in." And so it worked.

00:41:18.600 - 00:41:29.310

Well, there were a couple of criteria. One is had to be a scholar. They were supposed to meet with graduate students

00:41:29.310 - 00:41:41.560

informally after their talk. They were, well the idea was that they'd bring in somebody that they might even want to hire.

00:41:41.600 - 00:41:52.680

And there was one more thing, but I mean, it made a lot of sense to do that. So it wasn't very

00:41:52.680 - 00:42:06.000

expensive for the University. And then we eventually needed to get the Women Student Travel Fund. And we got a lot of requests from

00:42:06.000 - 00:42:18.170

Engineering and things like that. And so anyway, the Office of Women's Affairs worked very hard and

00:42:18.170 - 00:42:32.890

we did increase the awareness. Now to get to Women's Studies. When we formed the Office of Women's Affairs, I could no longer administer Women's Studies.

00:42:32.890 - 00:42:41.310

We had to do it in Continuing Ed for a while. And we could do that because it pays for itself. The tuition would pay for itself.

00:42:41.310 - 00:42:55.210

But you know, wanted to do more. Now, Jan D'Armond did a course, an early course. I can't remember the title of it,

00:42:55.340 - 00:43:08.340

but that was in the English department. It was not separate in Women's Studies. So what we did... Well, we had

00:43:08.340 - 00:43:21.120

to find somebody who could do that. I think it was still in Continuing Ed. So Donna Shavlik said she would do it and she was a

00:43:21.120 - 00:43:34.440

very strong feminist, and in the Office of Women's Affairs. And but in the meantime, she took a job in Washington DC,

00:43:34.440 - 00:43:44.880

but she came up by train every week and did it. [ML] Was this one of the early lecture courses? Or was it her own course?

00:43:44.880 - 00:43:59.650

There was a series of early lecture courses bringing speakers from-- [MC] It was a lecture course. Then Bonnie Scott did it. And Bonnie Scott was not hired at that time.

00:43:59.650 - 00:44:18.300

I mean, you know. So she did it, and then we got a position from the Provost for a coordinator, I guess it was.

00:44:18.490 - 00:44:32.930

Well, the search committee brought in a really good woman, but they, of course, could find no place for

00:44:32.930 - 00:44:38.740

her office or anything else, and they put her in the dorm. [ML] That was Ellen Morgan? [MC] Yes.

00:44:38.740 - 00:44:46.510

[ML] And she was in Warner Hall, which I didn't realize as a women's dorm at the time, was where they called it a Women's Studies dorm.

00:44:46.510 - 00:44:55.590

[MC] But it was also Donna had arranged for a women's dorm, but a lot didn't... It didn't work out too well and

00:44:55.590 - 00:45:07.620

Ellen left because she was not well. But she would have seminars there, but she left. And then we had another search

00:45:07.620 - 00:45:26.790

and that was very contentious, but we finally hired Joyce Walstedt, who had done work at I guess at Princeton,

00:45:26.790 - 00:45:42.770

but she had a degree in Psychology. And the big problem was evaluating students or faculty or people who came. So I guess she was half-time Psych,

00:45:42.770 - 00:45:50.730

and half-time Women, or something like that, Women's Studies. And she tried and we got another office in one of

00:45:50.730 - 00:46:04.620

those little houses, and she tried. And Lindy helped her a lot, but it just didn't work too well. And finally,

00:46:04.620 - 00:46:15.230

she decided she'd rather be in the Psych department. And then one semester she didn't show up and disappeared.

00:46:15.230 - 00:46:32.230

So that was when we had the retreat to see what would happen. Because at that time actually our office did Women's Studies

00:46:32.230 - 00:46:42.180

on a short-term basis. I mean, not that we thought that we were a faculty member, or anything. But how was...

00:46:42.180 - 00:46:57.960

who was going to do it if we didn't do it? So anyway, we put it in the catalog a couple times and talked to faculty. And so anyway.

00:46:57.960 - 00:47:09.410

I guess you know the story of it pretty well after that. [ML] I don't. This was in 1976, when you went on this retreat with all these folks.

00:47:09.410 - 00:47:24.490

[MC] Yeah. And I went as a... more of an advisor, because I don't have a Ph.D. Women didn't get Ph.D.s in those days. Anyway.

00:47:24.490 - 00:47:37.570

Well, let's see, what else? Have I covered a lot of this stuff? [ML] What do you think are some of the supporters

00:47:37.570 - 00:47:48.680

at the University that helped in the structural, the creation of Women's Studies? The early supporters? [MC] Well, Lindy Geiss was really good,

00:47:48.680 - 00:48:03.860

but, she was discriminated against. And Barbara Kelly was good. Barbara Gates did very well. Although the first time that she and

00:48:03.860 - 00:48:23.770

Gloria Hull went up for promotion, they were turned down. [ML] Really? [MC] And a less... a male who was not as good as they were, was supported by the English department.

00:48:23.770 - 00:48:33.160

And as a result, I know, Barbara and Gloria were thinking about... You know, they knew they were a lot better than this guy.

00:48:33.290 - 00:48:41.500

Barbara was thinking about leaving teaching, and you know, all that. I remember sitting in the basement of the Blue and Gold

00:48:41.500 - 00:48:49.410

with Jeanette Sam, and Barbara, and Gloria. And they were so discouraged. But they got it the next year. And of course, the Provost said,

00:48:49.410 - 00:49:02.680

"Why didn't you come up last year?" Well, what they didn't want was Barbara and Gloria to compete with a guy who they wanted.

00:49:02.720 - 00:49:23.850

The guy they wanted is still there. Anyway. Yeah, there was a risk to their academic career, to tenure. And of course, you have to

00:49:23.850 - 00:49:30.690

understand the students enrolled in these courses, and they wanted them, and they would come up and say, "You know, it changed my life."

00:49:30.690 - 00:49:44.850

Well, you're not going to give up if it changes your life. And they played a big thing by enrolling in the courses.

00:49:44.850 - 00:49:56.970

They were always over-enrolled. And by... well like that blue folder bringing people on the campus and having

00:49:56.970 - 00:50:11.400

meetings and all that stuff. You ask if there was a difference between traditional student and older students. Most of the older students had families,

00:50:11.400 - 00:50:21.660

a husband, children to take care of. And in general, they weren't as active as the younger students. And one thing the younger students

00:50:21.660 - 00:50:40.860

were really interested in was sexual harassment and a few of the faculty. So... Women's Studies and the Office of Women's Affairs

00:50:40.860 - 00:50:57.870

for a long time were very intertwined. We needed to support each other. Well, Lindy Geiss, Barbara Kelly, Barbara Settles,

00:50:57.870 - 00:51:10.240

Sally Van Camp, and Ben McLuckie were big supporters. He was in Sociology. of Women's Studies. And of course,

00:51:10.240 - 00:51:25.710

when people, other people came, we would involve them in Women's Affairs. Oh, Bonnie Scott was good, and a lot of them were named professors.

00:51:25.710 - 00:51:38.950

You know, they... It was a good time. Jeannette Sam really did a good job in recruiting these people. Of course, the young man that followed her, did almost nothing.

00:51:38.950 - 00:51:58.920

We lost a lot of progress there. But well, they have tenured faculty really interested in it and willing to work on it. I think that makes

00:51:58.920 - 00:52:05.790

a difference to the University. [ML] Right, because as I recall, Bonnie Scott was not even on staff or she was only part-time,

00:52:05.790 - 00:52:16.140

when she was starting and it was taking up a lot of energy for her. [MC] Well, she had small children. [ML] Right. So she had really little status

00:52:16.140 - 00:52:30.290

in that early year when she was doing it. [MC] Oh that's right. But the ones who taught the course, She didn't teach the course, she administered it. [ML] Right. [MC] Okay.

00:52:30.290 - 00:52:41.050

I guess I talked about Women's Studies interdisciplinary committee and the relationship. [ML] Well, was there any

00:52:41.050 - 00:52:49.650

question about naming it Women's Studies? [MC] About what? [ML] About naming it Women's Studies? [MC] No. [ML] Because I know at some schools it

00:52:49.650 - 00:52:58.110

was called Feminist Studies or now there's debates about Gender Studies. Of course, that was not an issue then, but I'm just curious about

00:52:58.110 - 00:53:08.930

the decision to call it Women's Studies, instead of... [MC] Well... We didn't really... See, we started before

00:53:08.930 - 00:53:19.220

most people in other schools. And so we were more basic, if you want to put it that way. And they probably had to call it Gender Studies

00:53:19.220 - 00:53:40.800

for political reasons. And there's nothing wrong with that. Well, the University reaction, you know, like "I'd like an affair with a woman.

00:53:40.800 - 00:53:51.360

Can I get it in your Office?" [ML] Yeah, when they called Women's Affairs. [MC] And the Review used to give us quite, pretty good coverage. Of course,

00:53:51.360 - 00:54:10.300

we were good sponsors of the Review. I mean, we spent a lot of money on the Review. 32 faculty members, well, this was after Maggie Andersen was hired,

00:54:10.300 - 00:54:21.280

I think about then. And Sandra Harding was there, but they were not there in the beginning, but they were hired.

00:54:21.280 - 00:54:36.510

And Roberta Golinkoff. I mean some of them are, you know, named professors. [ML] Right. [MC] I mean most of them are. [ML] So these are part of that

00:54:36.510 - 00:54:50.140

push to bringing more women into the University who then become engaged to help create this minor? [MC] Yeah. Okay.

00:54:51.740 - 00:55:00.160

Well, how was it decided? Originally when I was doing it, it's because nobody else could do it It was too dangerous for them.

00:55:00.160 - 00:55:14.560

But I didn't care because I didn't have to work, and I believed in it. So I did it.

00:55:16.250 - 00:55:31.120

I mean, we used to have meetings a lot. I mean, in other words, I didn't do it alone. No, no, nothing there.

00:55:31.120 - 00:55:43.390

Well, of course, the feminist politics of the period it includes did a lot. I mean, we had almost everybody here to build an app with their hat.

00:55:44.330 - 00:55:59.160

Well, I think it's very closely related. Although, well... the Women's Movement was never really big in Delaware. [ML] I ask that because of the history of

00:55:59.160 - 00:56:06.750

some programs or departments that it was run by sort of activists from the community. And it just seems like Delaware

00:56:06.750 - 00:56:13.680

organized differently. That it was more of sort of focused on the educational aspect and, you know, coming out of

00:56:13.680 - 00:56:21.750

that Continuing Ed stuff and developing along that line. So it's a kind of interesting difference. And I was just curious about what sort of

00:56:21.750 - 00:56:30.160

community involvement in the different programs or classes, that you might have seen? [MC] Title I of the 1965 Act made a big difference

00:56:30.160 - 00:56:45.860

because there was some funding for women's programs. And well... When there was... When Jeanette Sam

00:56:45.860 - 00:56:57.500

left and we needed a new affirmative action person, the national President of AUW was in town. So I talked with her and she was going

00:56:57.500 - 00:57:08.930

to support a woman, the local AUW and League of Women Voters were going to support a woman.

00:57:08.930 - 00:57:18.500

And a committee was appointed. The commission had a person on the search committee. So in the meantime,

00:57:18.500 - 00:57:36.030

they appointed a man, a young black man, who really wasn't, really wasn't into that. And of course, I had to go face the President

00:57:36.030 - 00:57:45.520

and the Provost very, very difficult by myself. Actually it was in the summer. Naturally, no one else was around,

00:57:45.520 - 00:57:56.250

but the commission had to say, you know, "What happened?" So I talked to the President, and he said, "Well, you set up the meeting

00:57:56.250 - 00:58:07.840

with the Provost and myself." So I set up the meeting, and I made up my mind I wasn't going to apologize.

00:58:07.840 - 00:58:17.220

I needed to do this. And if I lost my job, they could fire me. And that was all right. So I go in

00:58:19.270 - 00:58:28.040

and I tell him the problem that I see and how I have to go tell these people that the University did this without,

00:58:28.040 - 00:58:39.680

without having the search committee and all that stuff. So I finally said, Well, they're trying to tell me they need

00:58:39.680 - 00:58:52.490

diversity and they need this and that. So I finally said, "Well, I guess I'm not explaining it very well, because I see it very clearly."

00:58:52.490 - 00:59:04.560

"Well, no you're doing a very good job, but this is the situation." I said, "No, I'm not doing a good job." Anyway, I finally...

00:59:04.560 - 00:59:17.140

Well... Lee had just been to Africa and he was talking about how African elephants never forget. Okay, I had just got

00:59:17.140 - 00:59:33.850

back from a Fulbright in India and I finally said, "Some Indian elephants don't forget either." Yeah, isn't that awful. And I walked out.

00:59:33.850 - 01:00:00.850

[ML] You do what you need to do. [MC] Well, I was right. Why was it important? I think you've got the message, why it was important.

01:00:03.920 - 01:00:13.270

(Reading) What support or resistance did the commission face? Well, of course people didn't like it. They just saw another administrator added.

01:00:13.270 - 01:00:31.170

And the faculty didn't like it. The women faculty thought it was great, and the staff thought it was great. There was no committee

01:00:31.170 - 01:00:42.270

of staff women at that time. And so what the commission had to do, they had a lot of problems. So we asked them to add a sub-committee

01:00:42.270 - 01:00:53.940

to meet and decide what they really wanted. So they did. And we took it to the President. And he said, "Well, it might take a while,

01:00:53.940 - 01:01:10.490

but we'll do it." So nothing happened for a while. So I had to go visit him and he said, "Well you know I will do it,

01:01:10.490 - 01:01:25.560

but it has to be done appropriately." He said, "You can go directly to the Board of Trustees if you want." So we said,

01:01:25.560 - 01:01:42.900

"No, we trust in you." And he did it all. So, he was really good. I think one of the biggest things is the education of the faculty.

01:01:42.900 - 01:01:53.730

Like to be on the commission, you know, they heard all the complaints and all that, all those things, and it was an education.

01:01:53.730 - 01:02:02.480

They were different afterwards. I'll never forget this one guy who said, "Well this is what, I know this is

01:02:02.480 - 01:02:12.110

what we want, and I'll play the bad guy and we can go fight with the President." And I said, "Oh, no, no.

01:02:12.110 - 01:02:21.970

We'll get it, but we'll do it a different way." Actually, it was a woman's way. So we did it, and we got it.

01:02:29.690 - 01:02:39.540

I think one of the biggest things was to get these other support programs for women and get it out of the academic program in

01:02:39.540 - 01:02:51.100

Women's Studies because it was just bad. They had no one to complain to, or to try to assist them we didn't have an ombudsman.

01:02:52.340 - 01:03:08.000

So it took it away from Women's Studies, which I thought was very good. (Reading) What do you see as the successes of the Office of Women's Affairs?

01:03:08.000 - 01:03:18.740

Well, a lot of the programs we started are still going, like Women of Promise dinner, like Visiting Women Faculty Fund,

01:03:18.740 - 01:03:38.030

the Student Travel Fund. Let's see, what else do I have? I think the awareness at that time, I think from what I hear,

01:03:38.030 - 01:03:51.320

there's still some sensitivity, but it's more subtle. (Reading) Why was the decision to create the Office of Women's Affairs

01:03:51.320 - 01:03:59.790

rather than a Women's Center? Well, we were interested in changing the policies of the University.

01:04:00.190 - 01:04:14.720

The Student Affairs did not want a Women's Center. [ML] That's interesting. [MC] So we didn't. We didn't try it. We had a Women's Center

01:04:14.720 - 01:04:29.490

for a while under Title I, and it was for women returning to school. But the funding ran out and I couldn't figure out how to do it again.

01:04:34.300 - 01:04:48.560

(Reading) What are you most proud of? Well, that Women's Studies is now a department. It only took, what, 40 years. [ML] Just about. [MC] Maybe only 35.

01:04:48.560 - 01:05:05.270

But I did have people, like Deans, tell me that we were right, since I retired. [ML] So they got the education. [MC] Yeah, they did.

01:05:05.270 - 01:05:20.380

Well... let's see... (Reading) What do you think still needs to be addressed? The number of women faculty.

01:05:24.110 - 01:05:44.470

I'm sure you know that it's 33.4 now You show in the 1970s it was 18%. I think it had gone up to maybe 30% when I was still there.

01:05:44.470 - 01:05:56.680

I'm sorry, I didn't find that quickly, but I'm sure all you have to do is look at a commission report. You'll find what it is or what it was and

01:05:58.130 - 01:06:06.190

I think there is a lot more sensitivity, and I understand there's a sexual harassment taskforce,

01:06:06.890 - 01:06:19.950

But... Hal Brown wanted to handle that, and that didn't seem appropriate, [ML] I don't know him.

01:06:19.950 - 01:06:40.510

[MC] He was a Vice President, who left quickly. But we did solve There was a problem over in ROTC. You know, where the women

01:06:40.510 - 01:06:52.900

were getting all A's in all of a sudden, they go down to a C and because they were having an affair with an instructor.

01:06:52.900 - 01:07:02.940

And so that was one of the first things when I was appointed. When we had the Office of Women's Affairs. The first thing, call I got

01:07:02.940 - 01:07:17.640

was a sexual harassment issue. Well, it kind of took me back. [ML] I guess it's not a surprise. [MC] But we developed the policy. The Provost and I agreed, I would go to

01:07:17.640 - 01:07:30.630

the supervising person because I didn't have any direct power. And they would... I would go with it documented, and all that stuff.

01:07:30.630 - 01:07:45.580

And then they would arrange whatever needed to be done. And a couple of people left the University because of that.

01:07:46.940 - 01:07:58.710

But, and a lot of the things, all we needed to do was talk to them. I could get a department Chair's attention very quickly.

01:07:58.710 - 01:08:08.980

if I said, "I need to talk to you about the professional behavior of one of their faculty." I mean, I didn't do it unless I had to.

01:08:08.980 - 01:08:16.260

[ML] Right. [MC] I mean, like one students said, Oh, the professor was making fun of her because she asked a lot of questions,

01:08:16.260 - 01:08:25.350

and he would say, "Who would ever marry a person like that?" So she wrote it all out and she changed

01:08:25.350 - 01:08:34.680

universities because of it. When she went to Johns Hopkins, they said, "It won't be any better there." That's what the faculty said.

01:08:34.680 - 01:08:48.570

But so what happened is the department Chair read it to the department. Well (laughs), I got the phone call.

01:08:48.570 - 01:08:59.870

Of course, they didn't want to pay any attention to that. [ML] Right. [MC] And this faculty member wanted to know if I had a file

01:08:59.870 - 01:09:08.320

on everybody in the English department, I was so shocked. I was dumb. I said, I should have said, "Should I have one?"

01:09:08.320 - 01:09:22.410

But I said, "No, I don't do that." Everybody is afraid of that. But soon the behavior was so gross. [ML] And for some reason,

01:09:22.410 - 01:09:28.370

it wasn't thought of as a problem back then. [MC] Oh, no. No, no.

01:09:28.370 - 01:09:37.510

Just like the guy from the International Bank. Not a problem. [ML] Right. [MC] I mean, a woman doesn't break her,

01:09:37.510 - 01:09:57.650

what was it, tendon in her arm or something. [ML] So what do you think still needs to be addressed the terms of the University's situation? [MC] Well, we need enough faculty.

01:09:57.650 - 01:10:07.030

We had... The department had no faculty of their own on a tenure-track when they had a major.

01:10:07.030 - 01:10:19.170

So, you know, you shouldn't have to depend on other departments for that. But Marian Palley got them to have Women's Studies

01:10:19.170 - 01:10:38.130

included in their appointment. And that was a big step. And then we got a supportive Dean and a supportive Provost.

01:10:38.130 - 01:10:55.050

Actually, Bob and I were ready to do a named professor earlier, but the President would not do that. He didn't want anybody in Women's Studies, because

01:10:55.050 - 01:11:06.610

it actually he thought it was working very well. You know, big student enrollment, cheap. [ML] Right. Cost effective, [MC] Yeah, cost effective.

01:11:08.960 - 01:11:17.150

So we waited 2 years, and of course the stock market went down in that time. [ML] That made a difference.

01:11:17.150 - 01:11:26.890

[MC] Anyway, we decided to do it. After all, we have 2 daughters, 2 granddaughters. They should do well.

01:11:27.680 - 01:11:39.400

[ML] And have you always thought of yourself as a feminist? [MC] No. I guess, unconsciously, I was pretty independent.

01:11:39.400 - 01:11:52.590

But I'll tell you, after seeing those women who were left with nothing, it made me a real feminist. [ML] So your work in the Continuing Ed

01:11:52.590 - 01:12:02.740

really helped form that? [MC] Yeah, it really did. It never occurred to me that I just accepted what it was and worked within it.

01:12:02.740 - 01:12:19.480

But that made me realize you couldn't do that. And in Women and the Money, Well, I guess Eleanor Craig said it, "Every woman should have

01:12:19.480 - 01:12:30.860

some money in her own name." Well well, I spoke to an AUW group in Wilmington and I said that and of course I heard the next day or two, that

01:12:30.860 - 01:12:41.990

that was pretty far out. [ML] Radical? [MC] Yeah, so that's where it was. For Women in the Law when I was in Continuing Ed

01:12:41.990 - 01:12:50.650

I invited all the women lawyers in Wilmington to lunch and we sat around a small round table. I think there were 7 of them,

01:12:50.650 - 01:13:12.480

including Jane Roth. The bankruptcy judge, I mean, who turned out to be, I mean, they were, they did well.

01:13:12.480 - 01:13:22.420

And Arsht. [ML] Genevieve? [MC] I can't remember Mrs. Arsht's name? [ML] Was it Genevieve Arsht? [MC] What? [ML] I thought it was Genevieve. [MC] Arsht Hall,

01:13:22.420 - 01:13:42.560

that they gave to Continuing Ed. And they each took a part of things women should know in the law. And of course, all I could pay them was $60. Wouldn't even pay for their time,

01:13:42.560 - 01:13:56.040

let alone the work. But anyway, a lot of professional women were very supportive of the idea of this.

01:13:57.850 - 01:14:13.100

And I think in my own, I used to interact with people, feminists in Wilmington. Helen, I can't think of her name.

01:14:13.100 - 01:14:23.000

[ML] Thomas? Helen Thomas? [MC] The second name? [ML] Thomas? [MC] Yeah, Helen Thomas. Yeah, I knew Helen. I mean, there weren't

01:14:23.000 - 01:14:35.250

very many of us around. I don't know. I guess. Does that... Do you have anything else you want to ask me? [ML] Not at the moment.

01:14:35.250 - 01:14:54.050

Is there anything else you want to add? [MC] Well, I've talked a lot. [ML] Yes, you have. [MC] Well, I believed in it. I used to take people to lunch at

01:14:54.050 - 01:15:14.750

the Blue and Gold club. And, if I had a problem, not sexual harassment but other problems. So the Provost one time said, Oh, he was asked,

01:15:14.750 - 01:15:26.340

I heard somebody ask him why he had a woman on the search committee. And he said, "He didn't want Mae

01:15:26.340 - 01:15:45.490

to take him out to lunch again." [ML] (Laughs) They knew your strategy. [MC] Well, you know, we used to do a lot of things for women, faculty and staff women.

01:15:46.160 - 01:15:58.200

And that was important. And then the Human Development formed a group of professionals. And...

01:15:58.200 - 01:16:06.670

But I can tell you they had a Dean on that committee. I was on the first committee and he said, "No, you can't do that."

01:16:06.950 - 01:16:19.770

So, but the commission wasn't like that. And I think it helped. I took a lot of chances, and I was rewarded for all of them,

01:16:19.770 - 01:16:28.450

but I could afford to do that. And that's one reason I did it, because faculty couldn't do it. And if you are a single-parent,

01:16:28.450 - 01:16:41.140

you know, you can't take chances. So it didn't matter for me. And I was middle-age, middle-class. I had two children,

01:16:41.960 - 01:16:52.620

one graduated from Ohio Wesleyan and the other one was in Brown. They were smart kids and I had a supportive husband,

01:16:52.620 - 01:17:03.270

which was unusual. So he was wonderful too, because he retired 7 years before I did. But he said,

01:17:03.270 - 01:17:23.460

"I got a late start and I should be able to do my thing." [ML] And we thank him for it. [MC] What? [ML] And we thank him for it. Well, a lot of people

01:17:23.460 - 01:17:37.180

did a lot and it's hard to coordinate that. It was hard to coordinate it and do your own teaching, and some research. You couldn't do it.

01:17:38.600 - 01:17:46.630

[ML] Right. [MC] So I mean, I probably told you more than you wanted to know, [ML] Oh, no, there's always more, but I thank you. [MC] Good.