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[Kenneth Adams] Good afternoon. Today is May 16th, 2012, approximately 02:00 PM. This videotape interview is part of the Women's Studies

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oral history project at the University of Delaware. The interview session being conducted by UD grad student,

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Kenneth Adams, in the private home of renowned scholar and distinguished author, researcher and educator, Professor Roberta Michnick Golinkoff

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Dr. Golinkoff is the H. Rodney Sharp Chair in the School of Education at the University of Delaware.

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And is also a member of the departments of Psychology and Linguistics, and author of 12 books and numerous professional articles.

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She founded and directs the Infant Language Project, whose goal it is to understand how children tackle

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the amazing feat of learning language. The recipient of a prestigious John Simon Guggenheim Fellowship, Professor Golinkoff

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has graciously considered, this interview and the women's department thanks her in advance for her time. Good afternoon, Dr. Golinkoff.

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[Roberta Golinkoff] Hi. [KA] This interview will be an important contribution to the 40th anniversary celebration

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of Women's Studies at University of Delaware. And after that, a vital resource in the UD Archives available to future scholars who study women's history.

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May we start with a brief review of you, Roberta Michnick, growing up as a girl, in Brooklyn? And the influences that your early years

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there, had on your later life choices? Tell us about life in Brooklyn Is a young lady? {RG] Okay, picture a two-bedroom apartment

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and four people. And, not exactly the lap of luxury, but the message I got was "education really mattered."

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And boy, did I get that message. So I somehow always knew I was going to do something that had to do with learning and books.

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And I had an uncle who was very important to me who's passed away now, who was also a psychologist. And then I had a cousin and his wife.

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And it seemed like the family business, but they didn't go into the clinical side that they were all in. I went into the experimental

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developmental side. After working as a research assistant at Brooklyn College under a guy named Harry Beilin.

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So it was a great choice for somebody who knew nothing back then about anything. I was so naive, but it worked out swell. [KA] Sounds great. Was your family

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socially active in the sense of Civil Rights, Women's Movement, Gay Liberation, anything that we tend to associate

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with New York City, and the academic world? [RG] I think that they were active in trying to put two nickels together. I don't think that

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their political horizons extended beyond thinking about how the issues of the day reflected on and impacted on Jewish people?

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I think that was about it. [KA] So you were active in the Brooklyn Jewish community then? [RG] No. [KA] You weren't?! Okay. [RG] No. [KA] How do... I don't quite understand

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what you mean by how it reflected on Jewish people and economics? [RG] Oh, Jews always say, "Well, how does this affect the Jews?" "What does this mean for the Jews?"

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When there's a political event that takes place, it's always through the eyes of, "Will the Jews get it in the end?"

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Given that the Jews got it so many times in the past. So this is probably one of the reasons that many Jewish people are

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supportive of the rights of individuals of all stripes, because they've had their rights so curtailed in the past. And it's kind of part of the genetic code

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that you don't want that to happen to anybody else. [KA] What made you decide to go to Brooklyn College for your undergraduate degree?

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Did you have other choices? Or were you always-- [RG] When you have no money, you are thrilled to go to Brooklyn College. And it was a wonderful student body

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of highly accomplished individuals, many like myself from lower middle-class backgrounds who got the bug for

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education and thought of it as the way out. So a vast proportion of the students who went to Brooklyn College went on to professional careers

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and for graduate school, I got a free ride, fortunately. But it was the economics of it that determined where I went.

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[KA] How did you take education and focus in on infant language? Where did you determine that was the field you were going to go into?

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[RG] Well, I went to Cornell for grad school and worked with a guy named George Suci. And there were several other individuals around

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who were interested in early language and perception. And that fascinated me that there, that you can think of when you look at a baby

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and kind of think of it as an iceberg that there's a little bit on top, but there's tons underneath that you can't have access to because they can't talk.

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But they're figuring out so much about the world. So that was fascinating to me to try to get at what kids know, that they couldn't begin to

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relate because they don't have the language. [KA] I notice that you have two children. Did you have children at this point in our life? Or did that come later? [RG] No. Later, over ten years after that.

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[KA] So you were well-prepared for communicating with them? [RG] Well, maybe communicating. But I used to say, "I got

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a PhD in Developmental Psychology, but nobody ever told me when to put a sweater on a baby." You know, like the practical stuff,

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nobody teaches you that. So my child born in November had prickly heat in January.

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Prickly heat is brought on by heat and his mother was creating the heat by over dressing him. [KA] Did your mother come to your aid?

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[RG] Um. Yeah. My mom was around fortunately, passed way at 91. [KA] Oh, my goodness. [RG] Yeah.

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[KA] You sound like you had a very nurturing family, both from a love point of view, from a Jewish heritage point of view, and from an education point of view.

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[RG] Well, nobody ever checked my homework. It wasn't like they really knew a lot about how to promote my continuing education.

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And I did run up against sexism in my own family. My mother said to me at one time, "We would send you out of town,

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but you're a girl." So, you know, it was pretty clear that my mother's goal for me was to become a public school teacher.

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So I'd have my summers off. I mean, she kind of had it figured out, so I'd be able to rear my children. And I sort of carried out

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her dream only at a different level. [KA] How did you feel intellectually and emotionally when your mother said that to you? Or when you saw examples

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of that in your early years? [RG] Well, [KA] That form of sexism or... [RG] I wasn't too happy about it, but I knew that they

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really didn't have any money anyway. So my sense was that it was a kind of hollow thing for her to say, but sort of made clear

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that she didn't have great aspirations for me. Even though I had a cousin who is ten years my senior, who was doing very well.

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My mother... It took her a long time, in fact, to appreciate that I really liked what I did as much as I did. That I never wanted to back off even after I had kids.

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My mother used to try to urge me to take it easier and back away. And I never want to. Took her a long time to figure that out.

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[KA] I'm really interested in the cultural influences and development of people. I lived in New York I think there was a difference in the Hasidic community,

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the Orthodoxy and even the Reform temple which... Were you a reformed member of the Jewish faith? [RG] We were New York Jewish. That's about it. [KA] That's it. [RG] That's about it.

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My brother was bar mitzvahed. I was not, because I was a girl. And he did the one-year bar mitzvah route. So it was like, it sort of

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was steeped in the culture, but it wasn't anything organized and I had to learn a whole lot about it when I

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wanted my own kids to go through the bar mitzvah process. And then I belong to temple here. [KA] Along that line, the reason I was asking was, like it seems that

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more liberal, active Jewish members are in the Reform Temple that suspend sometimes traditional restraints on women's roles.

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Did you find that to be true or not? [RG] No, there are a lot of people... I just came from a luncheon from the Jewish Home for the Aged.

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And a lot of people who attend Orthodox and conservative temples who are extremely liberal, extremely. [KA] Okay. When you went to Cornell University,

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did you find activism or consciousness of women to be at a higher level? Or were you immersed in your PhD studies?

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[RG] Well, you have to ask me when I woke up. [KA] Yeah. [RG] You know, I was not a feminist in any sense that I would've identified with

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or understood what it meant until I TA'd a course in Women's Studies. And that was, I believe in my second year at Cornell.

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And that had a tremendous impact on me, being a teaching assistant. [KA] Who were some of the women that you were influenced by at that time in your life?

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[RG] Well, the woman who taught the course, who I'm still friendly with. Her name was Joy Osofsky,

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and she was very well-connected. And she at one time, Betty Friedan even came to Delaware. I'm not sure if I had read her book

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at the time. And it was a very active group and there was a Women's Studies program there. I believe it was just getting started.

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But reading the materials I did for the course and serving as a TA for the course really made me think differently.

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[KA] Were there consciousness-raising groups? Or were there, was there activism, physical activism on the campus at all within the Women's Movement?

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[RG] Not that I recall, but it may have occurred. But when I came to Delaware, I kind of started my own group.

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[KA] What year was that started? [RG] 1974. But you're not there yet. So... [KA] Oh. What would really be

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helpful to some of our future researchers is how did you juggle being a serious student? And also [RG] Right. [KA] Being a bright young woman?

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And there were, there was evidence of sexism in your private life and probably in society. Did you find sexism at

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Cornell University as far as advancement as a grad student or a TA? Or not? [RG] Well, it's funny you should say that. So it was a Department of Human Development.

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And the majority of people in the department who were PhD level, the students were all female. And I remember when I finished,

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it kind of hit me that there was one professor who shall remain nameless, who never had students who

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went on to take the kinds of jobs I would think they should have taken. And in my naive consciousness era,

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I think that I actually spoke to him when I went back at one point. And I told him and he was underestimating the women that he worked with,

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and of course he didn't want to hear it. But some of it was self-selection too. I mean, the people who really didn't want serious careers and just wanted

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to finish the PhD and then go on and start a family would choose to work with him too. So, you know, it was kinda both ways and I'm

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not sure if I raised his consciousness to help them think about it at all. But I don't think it was impossible to succeed at Cornell as a woman at that time.

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Now I can't speak from a faculty perspective. I mean, I don't know how many female, women, you know, how many women they tenured across

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the board. [KA] Yeah. [RG] I don't know. There were a couple of women in my department. [KA] When you were your

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last years of the graduate program, what sort of employment offer programs were you aware that you either personally received or

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did you have to learn on your own and dig this stuff up? [RG] To find a job, you mean? [KA] Or were universities actively promoting women to hire, to encourage you to

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come apply for jobs? [KA] Or was it just general employment? [RG] Uh, remember, I'm Human Development. Maybe if it was Engineering,

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it would be different. And maybe the ads at some point would just say things like "people of all races

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and genders encouraged to apply." They sort of started saying that in the 1970s, which is when I was looking for jobs.

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But there were the occasional places. Oh! What was the name of that place? I had the letter from them on my door, for years because

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it was so egregious. Some place in Pennsylvania who said, "We seek a man who can." Right! [KA] Are you serious? [RG] I am perfectly serious!

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And it was in the early 1970s. I had it on my door for a long time because it was so outrageous to me. It was a religious place

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and they wanted to people to swear off alcohol and counsel the students. And it said, "We seek a man." But in my area,

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my area is not a stereotypically male area, but a female area. Although there are women in my area. So no one thought

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it was that surprising that a female scholar was applying for their jobs. [KA] So how did the University of Delaware luck out and get Roberta Golinkoff as a faculty recruit?

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[RG] Very nice of you to say. They were looking for somebody who had exactly my credentials Psycho-linguistic Reading.

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Human Development. It was like a match made in heaven. [KA] In the infancy of your days here how did you know how to value yourself as far salary is concerned? [RG] I didn't!

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I was clueless. And in fact, the guy who just called was the former Chair. And he told me that when

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I would do my own faculty appraisal, I was too harsh on myself. Because I had really high standards for myself and I had no idea.

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I didn't look at anybody else's faculty appraisal. So you know, I was giving myself bad grades, and I was

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probably doing swell. So I had no way. How do you know? [KA] When did the light go on and you decided not to take that route any more? [RG] Well, I came up early for tenure.

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So I came up after four years instead of six. And I guess, you know, the more you get to know the people around you and what they're doing and

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involved in, the more you can kind of judge where you are relative to the pack. So you know, you just have to hang out,

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talk to people, get more experience. [KA] To stay along that line a little bit. In 1978, the Women's Studies minor was created what was the status of women on campus

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when you arrived? This would be right around your tenure. Do you remember both faculty? Or can you talk about faculty members or female students?

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[RG] Yeah, I don't know that I can give you numbers. I certainly can't give you percentage of female faculty.

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I mean, if you want that info, you gotta go back. [KA] What about just the environment? The working environment? The attitude?

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[RG] (Pauses) If you have a really thick skin, then you might not even notice when people are saying things that are

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a put-down based on your gender. You know, there are, there have been occasions at the University, but few and far between, where I kind of

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felt like people have been uncomfortable with me being as assertive and outspoken as I sometimes am.

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So you know, sometimes I've gotten that message from, of course, male faculty members. But it's really like less than one hand, I can count the instances.

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But that still doesn't mean that there hasn't been "institutional" kind of racism and sexism with respect to how many people we have on the faculty.

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Now, I know it's been growing by I don't know whether there are as many women as should be in the higher ranks. And I do, of course

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because I'm a psychologist, know about the research that shows that if you put the name "Dana Schwartz" on a vita, and if you're led to

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believe Dana is a female versus Dana is a male. You're going to evaluate the female's resume significantly lower,

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than you're going to evaluate the same accomplishments in a male. These studies were all over the place in the 1970s.

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So that. Those are the studies that made administrators at universities around the country and colleges realize that they

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really had to go out of their way to take a dispassionate view, which is virtually impossible. The credentials that females bring to

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the table, as opposed to what males bring to the table. And probably the same thing is true for our African-American colleagues.

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[KA] I'd like to follow up on a... You stated to me about sometimes receiving negative or critical messages from men. How did you

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yourself respond to that? What was your...? Was there a pattern that you felt comfortable in treating this? Or did you shy away it? Or did you just

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confront it head-on? How would you handle that? [RG] I think sometimes when something like that happens to you, you only realize

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in retrospect what the subtext was. [KA] Yeah. [RG] And that's certainly what happened to me. I think.

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[KA] Why is it, in your opinion, that assertive women get known by the B-word or other labels? And men who are assertive are just doing their job?

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[RG] Right, right. [KA] Did you had that reaction also? Were you afraid of being a labeled as a "misfit"? [RG] I was never concerned about being labeled. You know, sticks and stones and all that.

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I think it's because until most recently. But it's not over yet. The battle isn't over yet. If a woman was assertive,

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it was considered to be outside. You know, you would hope that wouldn't be true in academe, right? Because in academe we believe in equality and

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everybody brings the same credentials and gets evaluated fairly. And it's not true because we're part of the larger culture. [KA] Right.

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[RG] And you know, there's -isms of various kinds that continued to exist because people are people and they put their pants

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on one leg at a time. And whether they mean to or not, they're influenced by the culture that they're part of.

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[KA] Progress happens though, because people confront that issue sometimes. [RG] Right. [KA] I'm wondering in your personal memory, female or the junior female

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faculty members often encounter interesting circumstances. Do you have any favorite memories of your early years? Were they either very happy or disturbing to you?

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[RG] Well, yeah. When I came, I never expected to be best friends with the Chair of the department and the head

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of graduate studies. Both, both of whom were male. And I felt incredibly privileged to be brought into

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the fold and socialized by these guys who clearly had no sexist ideas. And we're very encouraging and supportive. And I was literally

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like hanging out with these people. And that was incredibly helpful to me. And I owe a debt of gratitude to both these guys,

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Lou Mossberg and Frank Murray. I feel like they socialized me into the profession and what matters and what doesn't matter.

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And it was great. [KA] Do you feel that your department was special or unique in that sense? [RG] I was the only woman on

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a regular tenure-line faculty position when I came. And I wasn't too crazy about that. But little by little,

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you know, that certainly has changed. Yeah, that was pretty noticeable. But it's changed. [KA] Did it get lonely or was it... Did you not notice it? [RG] It didn't stand out to me.

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And one of the reasons probably is because It was very important to me to have friends on the faculty who were female. So what I was going to mention before was I made

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phone calls when I came over to the Women's Studies people and I can't remember who else and said, you know, "Who are the feminists around?

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I want to start a group." And we actually had a group that went on for years. [KA] Did it have a name? [RG] No. Well, we we met informally and we talked about

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professional and personal issues. It was wonderful. It was great. [KA] Do you recall the names of some of the people that you shared time with in the group?

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[RG] Ann Hudson, who's deceased, Lindy Geiss, who was fantastic. [KA] Oh, yes. [RG] Who's deceased. Marcia Halperin,

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who left the University after about six years, who's still my best friend who lives in Wilmington. There was a woman from Languages and Literature

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whose name I can't recall, and one or two others. We were pretty regular and it was wonderful. It was great.

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[KA] Were you talking about the status of female faculty? Or Women's Studies? Or feminists concerning

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that were all amalgam of all that? Do you recall if you... [RG] Not much of those things. It was more about how we as individuals could succeed.

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And what we needed to do to succeed. We would help each other. And I was in a group like that when I was a postdoc at

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the University of Pittsburgh with two other female faculty. And I found that to be so helpful because before you have tenure,

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you really don't, you may be unsure about how to prioritize things. And it's so helpful to have people to talk to about that.

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Even if they're at your level, you know, to help you think through "What really matters here?" "What should you be working on

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first or second?" So it was great, to have a group like that. [KA] For future researchers on that, what you're saying right now,

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what were some of the tips that you got? Do you recall any particular, ones that really made an impact on you? About how to succeed in

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a university environment? [RG] Not really, it was all done in a very informal way. And it was all very helpful.

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It was just great. I mean, people could really talk about what their concerns were. It was wonderful. I don't know that

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there's any specific thing that came out. And then on the more formal front, I got myself involved with the creation of the Women's Studies program

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because I wanted us to have an image on campus, and a group that stood for women's rights and helping women succeed. [KA] Along that line

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of the Women's Studies program what has been your relationship from the earliest days at UD with the Women's Studies program? How directly involved? Did you teach a course?

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[RG] I taught a course on only one semester, something about women in Education. I remember because I was pregnant at the time, but other than that,

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I have not taught a regular course for the Women's Studies program, but I've always been

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a big supporter and eager to see us succeed. And I'm really thrilled with the leadership of the program. And at the present time,

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we are going to become a department under Monika Shafi who's wonderful. And, you know, so a lot of my friends

00:23:07.400 - 00:23:15.410

have headed it up and have done very, very well for us. [KA] Have you had conversations with your own students about both your involvement

00:23:15.410 - 00:23:22.670

in the Education department and with Women's Studies? Has there been any cross-pollination? [RG] No, I tried to encourage my colleagues, my female colleagues to

00:23:22.670 - 00:23:35.060

attend the parties, the meetings. And, you know, it's often difficult when people have young children to do these things.

00:23:35.060 - 00:23:45.380

And I don't know that they feel the same urgency in many cases that I did when I came. [KA] Some of the other people

00:23:45.380 - 00:23:52.040

who have been interviewed have mentioned periodically through the years some of the difficulties at the University, some of the institutional hesitancy

00:23:52.040 - 00:23:57.950

to consider the legitimacy of Women's Studies. What, what would you say if someone said that's not a legitimate program,

00:23:57.950 - 00:24:08.930

not a legitimate department academically? What is Women's Studies academically to you? [RG] Well, you know, the thing that often gets said when you

00:24:08.930 - 00:24:17.150

mention Women's Studies is people say, "Well, what about Men's Studies? Why don't you have Men's Studies?" You know, and that's where

00:24:17.150 - 00:24:24.840

this institutional -ism comes in. That so much of what we celebrate in the academy are the achievements of men.

00:24:24.840 - 00:24:30.590

It doesn't mean that we don't sometimes celebrate the achievements of women, but we talk about them and treat them differently.

00:24:30.590 - 00:24:38.590

So I think it's really important for us to have a Women's Studies program to make people aware of the fact that

00:24:38.590 - 00:24:48.140

there is tremendous benefit to integrating. It's happened! I mean women are over 50% of the workforce. And so we have to treat them fairly

00:24:48.140 - 00:24:57.110

and encourage women at all levels to develop the potential. [KA] Can you describe for us how you feel perhaps feminism has shaped

00:24:57.110 - 00:25:08.090

your research and writings, if at all? [RG] I'm not sure, given that I work in the area of language acquisition

00:25:08.090 - 00:25:22.990

and what children know about the world from a cognitive standpoint. I have not done really much in the way of research on gender differences. I have not.

00:25:22.990 - 00:25:30.040

So I don't know that I could say it's really had a big impact on my research agenda. It's always for me in

00:25:30.040 - 00:25:41.980

the background and it's always something that I'm aware of and treasure that I am on a campus where women's achievements

00:25:41.980 - 00:25:51.770

are recognized and where we have a Women's Studies program and where we have the opportunity to influence female undergraduates.

00:25:51.770 - 00:25:58.190

Because remember it happened to me when I was a TA. And people who take our, even just our Intro

00:25:58.190 - 00:26:04.910

Women's Studies courses have the same kinds of epiphanies about what... I mean, if you're living on a daily basis,

00:26:04.910 - 00:26:13.280

you don't notice a lot of stuff, you know, but once you take a course, and you start to objectify your environment. You start to realize

00:26:13.280 - 00:26:19.940

how to interpret things that take place in your life and what some of the forces might have been that shaped you.

00:26:19.940 - 00:26:26.750

So these Women's Studies courses, I think have the opportunity to have a big impact, and DO on how our undergraduates

00:26:26.750 - 00:26:32.660

feel about themselves. I think that's so important that we offer that. [KA] Do you see yourself teaching

00:26:32.660 - 00:26:41.970

another class soon? For Women's Studies? Would you be open for it? [RG] Probably not. [KA] Right now? [RG] Yeah, probably not. [KA] Can you elaborate a little on that?

00:26:41.970 - 00:26:54.350

[RG] Well, I have research grants and what I do with my research grants is I typically buy myself out of a course if I can. [KA] For your teaching load.

00:26:54.350 - 00:27:01.700

[RG] Yeah, but, but here's something I'm tremendously proud of. Okay, so even though

00:27:01.700 - 00:27:11.330

I buy myself out of a regular class, every semester I conduct one, two, sometimes three lab groups. And these are the people who are in

00:27:11.330 - 00:27:22.610

my research labs and do research with me. And they're overwhelmingly female. And I call them "Dr." and they call

00:27:22.610 - 00:27:31.900

me were "Roberta" which I want. And by calling them "Dr." it's funny. It's like I'm trying to tell them no implicitly,

00:27:31.900 - 00:27:39.800

"See? It sounds good, doesn't it?" "You can do this!" And one of the things that we do, we meet weekly, like a class

00:27:39.800 - 00:27:48.890

and I have them read. We tear apart the writings of people who work in our area. And I am so thrilled

00:27:48.890 - 00:27:55.670

that my students undergrad and grad, but this really undergrad, develop such a healthy disrespect from things that appear to things

00:27:55.670 - 00:28:02.690

that appear in print that are written by people with fancy degrees after their names. I love it! And I love that

00:28:02.690 - 00:28:13.730

by the end of the semester, like the last lab meeting was last Friday, they didn't want to accept a paper that had already appeared in

00:28:13.730 - 00:28:22.610

a premier journal in my field. And I pointed out to them how smart they had become and how capable they were in evaluating

00:28:22.610 - 00:28:29.990

the arguments in these papers and how far they've come. I just love that. So I feel like, even if I'm

00:28:29.990 - 00:28:39.620

not teaching a course that has to do with the official content that's covered in a Women's Studies class, I'm having an influence on a lot of

00:28:39.620 - 00:28:47.150

young women to think that they're capable and competent. And I love that. [KA] You obviously have

00:28:47.150 - 00:28:53.270

a very high skill at motivating people. [RG] I hope so. [KA] Yeah. You know your name has come up and the reason I'm here today

00:28:53.270 - 00:29:02.360

is because your name has come up quite often as being a significant contributor to the early days of the development of Women's Studies. In your humble opinion,

00:29:02.360 - 00:29:08.840

what do you think has been your most significant contribution to the status of women at UD? Along with what you just said about motivating your own students?

00:29:08.840 - 00:29:20.750

[RG] I think just being a big supporter and, and talking it up whenever I could. I have not served as a director. Sometimes in

00:29:20.750 - 00:29:31.030

the past we've had some kind of leadership, I don't know, if it's steering committee, but you have to go way back for that. And sometimes I was on those.

00:29:31.030 - 00:29:40.280

But just because I think it's really important to have it. And I haven't had to defend it, but in the past when I've had to defend it,

00:29:40.280 - 00:29:47.660

you know, I've defended it. I don't know that I had a formative role. Only in so far as I

00:29:47.660 - 00:29:55.490

was a member of these early committees that would meet and we would strategize about how to achieve our aims. But I don't think of myself

00:29:55.490 - 00:30:04.130

as a front fighter, but as a continual supporter. In the background more than in the foreground.

00:30:04.130 - 00:30:10.970

[KA] For your position in the Education and Psychology departments, when you look across campus to see Women's Studies department

00:30:10.970 - 00:30:18.320

and you reflect upon the last 40 years, what reactions you feel? What comes to mind? What do you feel when you see the Women's Studies department?

00:30:18.320 - 00:30:24.950

And you see the continued growth of the courses being offered and in the numbers of students taking classes? Does that give you particular pride? Or...

00:30:24.950 - 00:30:32.990

[RG] I think it's great. Yeah, I'm real happy about that. And again, as I say, you know, many of the people who

00:30:32.990 - 00:30:41.520

I've been friendly with over the years have headed up the program. For example, Beth Haslett, Marian Palley, and others.

00:30:41.520 - 00:30:53.030

And it just makes me very happy that we're recognized and that we're valued. And the... There was an Office of Women's Affairs

00:30:53.030 - 00:31:00.170

that was set up under Trabant. And I don't know who's doing those functions now, but one of the things that they did

00:31:00.170 - 00:31:07.640

that I thought was so crucial, I don't know where this is going now is if there were male or female faculty members

00:31:07.640 - 00:31:18.320

who were harassing women, that was a place that undergraduates could go and I don't know where that function takes place now.

00:31:18.320 - 00:31:26.920

I'm not sure that that Office has kind of morphed into a different name. And so I just, you know,

00:31:26.920 - 00:31:35.570

I want to keep protecting our undergraduate students too. [KA] And hopefully get more graduate courses like this is a graduate course in Women's Studies,

00:31:35.570 - 00:31:44.090

which is a step forward for the department to offer grad classes also. [RG] If there are people at the Women's Studies who want to have

00:31:44.090 - 00:31:50.730

a doctoral program or a Master's program. Do we have a Master's program at this time? I don't know that we do.

00:31:50.730 - 00:31:58.150

[KA] Not that, but they do offer Master's classes. [RG] Well, that makes sense then. Great, great. [KA] In closing, I was going to ask you to

00:31:58.150 - 00:32:06.440

maybe reflect for a moment. Ten to fifteen years from now, the young, future feminists of Women's Studies scholars meet Roberta Golinkoff via this interview.

00:32:06.440 - 00:32:13.930

This is tape. What would you, what would you like for them to learn from you? If you could take a message that has

00:32:13.930 - 00:32:21.010

universality and continuity through the decades, what would you say to the young women on the verge of entering the academic world?

00:32:21.010 - 00:32:31.460

What personal advice would you like to share with them? [RG] Well, what came to mind I can't say out loud. [KA] (laughs) We'll censor it later.

00:32:32.160 - 00:32:43.090

It comes basically down to: Be yourself. Push for what you believe. Do good work. And expect the best from others.

00:32:43.090 - 00:32:53.960

And if you don't get it, you have to be prepared to tell them, if the occasion comes up, how they can behave better.

00:32:53.960 - 00:33:01.740

But it makes it sound like I've been a minder around here. And I haven't. I haven't really told people when they... Erase that.

00:33:01.740 - 00:33:09.620

Let's start over. What would I want people to know? I would want women to know that they need

00:33:09.620 - 00:33:18.450

the support of other women. That's really important, And that they shouldn't be isolated. And a lot of that is self-imposed.

00:33:18.450 - 00:33:29.060

They should find other women who want to have a career and a family. Because this is often the conflict that women face and some men too, more and more,

00:33:29.060 - 00:33:36.940

And they should find a support group like I did, of people who can help them think through some of their dilemmas.

00:33:36.940 - 00:33:46.700

If they like what they do, they should fight to continue it, because the childbearing years are not that long,

00:33:46.700 - 00:33:55.820

and the time when your children need you for every little thing diminishes over time. And the life of the mind is absolutely crucial.

00:33:55.820 - 00:34:02.900

And it's, for me, the greatest pleasure to work on problems of my own choosing and to continue to develop and grow.

00:34:02.900 - 00:34:12.150

That's the best thing about this job. Don't tell anybody, but I pay them and I want to keep doing it. And I want to help

00:34:12.150 - 00:34:22.130

young women and men to be able to have a family life at the same time that they have an active intellectual life and make a contribution to their scholarship.

00:34:22.130 - 00:34:32.130

It's really important to me that we not make either women or men, because even men have felt this way, I've talked to that they can't

00:34:32.130 - 00:34:41.780

possibly fulfill the requirements of academe and have a family, at the same time. The bar has gone up. There's no question about it.

00:34:41.780 - 00:34:49.970

For what we look for in applicants just keeps increasing. These are people who are starting as assistant professors,

00:34:49.970 - 00:35:00.390

like I probably wouldn't have gotten an interview here, now, because I didn't have publication signed, sealed, and delivered when I applied.

00:35:00.390 - 00:35:07.460

And now we look for people who already have, you know, two, three, and four publications and more research on the way.

00:35:07.460 - 00:35:14.690

And, you know, so the bar has definitely gone up. So women need the support of other women, and women need to

00:35:14.690 - 00:35:23.240

think carefully about who they select as a spouse because that's going to make a huge difference too. Because you want somebody...

00:35:23.240 - 00:35:30.620

I don't want to use the word "help" because that implies it's the woman's role and the man helps out, picks up the difference. (shakes her head) Uh, uh, uh.

00:35:30.620 - 00:35:39.200

You want to find somebody like Carolyn Thoroughgood did from Marine Studies. I remember when she spoke at the Women's Studies dinner. And she

00:35:39.200 - 00:35:47.780

talked about how they divided everything up, not with a piece of paper and legalistically, but they helped each other out at every juncture and all the time.

00:35:47.780 - 00:35:57.110

And that's the kind of relationship that can make it possible, make it easier for people to succeed. [KA] What an inspiring commentary!

00:35:57.110 - 00:36:06.110

In closing, I was wondering if there was anything you would like to say that perhaps I did not ask? Is there anything on your mind that you would like to share about the University Delaware? Being a female professor at

00:36:06.110 - 00:36:20.240

the University of Delaware? [RG] In general, I've had a wonderful ride and I cannot say really anything negative. I have felt valued,

00:36:20.240 - 00:36:32.590

and supported. And everyone has been as helpful as they can be for supporting what I want to do. And I wish that

00:36:32.590 - 00:36:40.340

all my female colleagues around the country felt this way, and I'm not sure that everybody does. So the University of Delaware

00:36:40.340 - 00:36:47.360

has really done right by me. I mean, ideally, we say in the future, it should be the case that Women's Studies and Black Studies

00:36:47.360 - 00:36:55.460

vanishes because they'll get incorporated into the curriculum. I don't know that that'll ever happen. AND, you know, women have made

00:36:55.460 - 00:37:02.460

unique contributions as African-Americans have, as Jewish people have. Like we have a Jewish studies.

00:37:02.460 - 00:37:14.090

You know, there is a benefit to keeping it separate and to heightening people's awareness of what women have contributed to our society.

00:37:14.090 - 00:37:22.680

So I don't want it to go away any time soon. [KA] Dr. Golinkoff, thank you so much for your time, [RG] Thank you. [KA] And for your inspiring comments. [RG] Thank you. [KA] Thank you for the afternoon.

00:37:22.680 - 00:37:30.060

[RG] Thank you. [KA] Well, what was the problem?!? [RG] With what?! [KA] You told me I had nothing-- (recording ends)