00:00:01.400 - 00:00:15.810

[Marie Laberge] So I want to talk about Women's Studies, you mentioned that there was the need to sort of go behind and organize around Joyce Jennings and then she left

00:00:15.810 - 00:00:28.140

in a sort of, as I understand it, abrupt way. [Sandra Harding] Yes. She'd alienated everybody and she, I mean, she needed to survive. And she took her,

00:00:28.140 - 00:00:36.580

what she regarded as her line, what we regarded as Women's Studies line into Psychology. And so we there we were, without a line.

00:00:37.460 - 00:00:53.240

[ML] And so that meant there was no coordinator either for Women's Studies? At that point. [SH] Didn't we... Did we elect Bonnie? Or stick Bonnie... [ML] Well that was, at that point, Bonnie did become Acting Coordinator. She had to scramble through that. [SH] Yeah, yeah.

00:00:53.240 - 00:01:03.990

[ML] But that was also around the time that Dean Goulder sent a number of Women's Studies faculty: Maggie Anderson, and understand Laura Helm yourself and Ann Hassett

00:01:03.990 - 00:01:12.590

Mae Carter, Barbara Kelly, Mindy Geis, once got on a retreat. [SH] Yes, that was wonderful. [ML] in Lancaster. I was wondering if you could talk about what that was like

00:01:12.590 - 00:01:21.030

and what the objectives were? [SH] I can barely remember it. It was so long ago. What is that 40 years ago? or something close to it. [ML] It was.

00:01:22.240 - 00:01:32.270

[SH] Well, it was just wonderful. I do, we had an agenda of figuring out where we wanted to, you know, how we wanted to regroup and what

00:01:32.270 - 00:01:39.410

were good strategies for it. And Mae Carter was there too might be, wasn't she? Because she was always so terrific

00:01:39.410 - 00:01:49.570

at strategizing with us. She was so good at that. And I can't remember any details of anything. I remember we had a lovely time and

00:01:49.570 - 00:01:59.690

ate together and had uh... came out of it with some plans for something or other. It's too long ago for me to actually recall

00:01:59.690 - 00:02:08.010

what actually we were doing. We had the big Introduction to Women's Studies courses. It was already very big,

00:02:08.010 - 00:02:23.390

I think. Somewhere along this moment, we, it was either there or a little after, we got TAs for that course, which was terrific. And two of the TAs

00:02:23.390 - 00:02:35.300

I remained, had continuing relationships, friendships with. One was Peggy, oh boy, what's her name now? She's in

00:02:35.300 - 00:02:41.660

the English department at Stanford. She's quite well known. She got her doctorate from the English department.

00:02:41.660 - 00:02:53.100

I'll think of her last name. And the other one was a young woman who's a lawyer now in Wilmington, whose name is also slipping my mind.

00:02:53.100 - 00:03:04.130

So that was a big move to have TAs for big class with TAs and, my, one of my Master's students in the couple of years

00:03:04.130 - 00:03:12.590

that that program existed when I was there, Pamela Armstrong also TA'd into that course and she's a lawyer, has been a lawyer for years

00:03:12.590 - 00:03:20.910

now somewhere or other, Texas, I think. So we I can't remember if that was a plan that came out of that.

00:03:20.910 - 00:03:32.840

Frankly, it's amazing. I remember it at all. [ML] [inaudible] [SH] Yes, yes. Yes, yes, yes. There are photos,

00:03:32.840 - 00:03:43.850

I think there are photos somewhere of that. [ML] There are a few. They were not labeled as what that was. Part of what I think came out of that was the focus

00:03:43.850 - 00:03:50.480

on trying to get a Minor in Women's Studies? [Sh] Yes, no doubt. [ML] And I was wondering if there were challenges in terms of

00:03:50.480 - 00:03:59.750

even getting the University to acknowledge the Minor? [SH] I don't remember that the Minor was a big struggle. I mean, there's always a few little hoops to jump through,

00:03:59.750 - 00:04:07.340

but I don't remember any big battles over it. Getting a Major was another battle and I'm sure getting to be a department, which

00:04:07.340 - 00:04:21.090

happened after I left, was a huge battle. I mean, they would be there, because there are no resources really involved in the Minor. And it, you know, frequently,

00:04:21.090 - 00:04:30.290

We always, at least I did, speaking for myself when I was director, I always let the administration

00:04:30.290 - 00:04:36.580

know how lucky they were to have such a reasonable person as me, because the students were demanding, demanding

00:04:36.580 - 00:04:46.820

demanding x, y, and z. And think how lucky they were that I was, that we faculty were so reasonable about these things.

00:04:46.820 - 00:04:56.090

So unless there were resources involved, I don't remember big struggles over, with the administration, over anything in particular

00:04:56.090 - 00:05:02.390

was only when there were resources involved. There was some time in this period, I can't I was trying to find

00:05:02.390 - 00:05:11.630

some way to pin it down and I can't. Maggie would remember it. Maggie and I got a grant from the College, or with the Provost.

00:05:11.630 - 00:05:20.860

And I guess it was from the Provost, to run a summer. A summer, what was it, six weeks maybe or four weeks?

00:05:20.860 - 00:05:30.360

A program for faculty. They had to apply to it to, to revise their, the introductory course in their discipline.

00:05:30.360 - 00:05:38.140

And we had, I forget, I think there were eight faculty in it. There was one woman from Public Policy,

00:05:38.140 - 00:05:47.160

Ann Hudson, I think was her name. And there were people, there were guys from Anthropology, couple from History.

00:05:47.160 - 00:05:55.180

I can't remember the other departments they were from. And it was first of all, it was a two-year, structurally,

00:05:55.180 - 00:06:05.870

it was a two-year. Or it was a full-year program. I guess there was the summer workshop where we met three hours a day, twice a week, for four weeks,

00:06:05.870 - 00:06:16.070

maybe, or six weeks, I forget what it was. And with readings and discussion and I'll come back to that. Then, the following year

00:06:16.070 - 00:06:25.490

there was a lecture series and each of those faculty was given, had funds to bring in a leading feminist scholar

00:06:25.490 - 00:06:34.370

in their field into the, It was, we did a good job designing it. And so the idea was to get it into these departments in a

00:06:34.370 - 00:06:45.620

legitimated and, a depth way, so there were faculty who could teach it. And we, did we say only men? We didn't

00:06:45.620 - 00:06:53.840

But we really wanted the men faculty in there and they had all be tenured to be in there. [ML] That was the inclusive curriculum? [SH] Yeah. Inclusive curriculum thing.

00:06:53.840 - 00:07:01.640

Maggie and I had meanwhile, and I think Gloria too, had, I think the three of us had been up at the Wellesley Center for Women

00:07:01.640 - 00:07:10.390

in three different years on revising the curriculum. And Maggie had ended up being semi-employed by them my year.

00:07:10.390 - 00:07:19.490

I went up on the Science year. The year they were doing Gender and Science. And I'm pretty sure Gloria went up when they were doing Literature and Maggie,

00:07:19.490 - 00:07:25.470

the first year when they were doing Social Sciences, that was Peggy McIntosh. The Wellesley Center was running these.

00:07:25.470 - 00:07:35.690

And so we had good ideas about how to organize these things and so forth. The guys' responses to this material, and we gave them

00:07:35.690 - 00:07:46.160

the most radical material, Catherine MacKinnon, right. And Gloria's Gloria's early work and you know, something from their disciplines.

00:07:46.160 - 00:07:54.710

I forget whether we were shifting disciplines or topics or how we organized it, but there was a deep sense

00:07:54.710 - 00:08:04.490

of shock in that group. They had no idea, you know, just the astonishment to discover gender in kinds

00:08:04.490 - 00:08:18.560

of places you never thought it was. It was very fun to run. Maggie and I had to have a drink every day after it. It was, Whoa! [ML] Pretty intense? [SH] Two young women

00:08:18.560 - 00:08:25.810

with older than us guys running our own colleagues. I mean, that, that's a really hard thing to do,

00:08:25.810 - 00:08:35.640

but Maggie's got incredible, as I'm sure you know, managerial and leadership styles and having the two of us do it was so good,

00:08:35.640 - 00:08:45.560

because each could pick up some pieces that were lying around while the other was ongoing and so

00:08:45.560 - 00:08:54.140

forth and strategize about what to do. There was one guy who wouldn't shut up and it was perfectly clear that he knew exactly what, what

00:08:54.140 - 00:09:00.830

should be taught and it was absolutely wrong as far as we were concerned. He monopolized the time. So we'd develop

00:09:00.830 - 00:09:07.280

these strategies and so forth. And they were guys in there who were very supportive. I think they all enjoyed it a lot.

00:09:07.280 - 00:09:13.430

It was a wonderful opportunity for them wherever they, whatever they were thinking about and they all did

00:09:13.430 - 00:09:22.580

something or other with their courses. Some of them were hugely reorganized and others probably only minimally.

00:09:22.580 - 00:09:32.120

But we I mean, that's eight people not only at Delaware who've been through this kind of training,

00:09:32.120 - 00:09:50.420

but out in their disciplinary organizations and so forth. So. [ML] I actually remember us doing something when I was a graduate student in this concept. Around that same time period. And we did this sort of inclusive revising the curriculum. [SH] Yeah.

00:09:50.420 - 00:09:56.990

And it helped to have people from different disciplines in there. They loved that part of it a lot. They didn't get to talk to people in

00:09:56.990 - 00:10:05.210

other disciplines. [ML] That's the nature of the academy. You often don't have those conversations everywhere. compensate, Right? [SH] Right! And that's one thing that's been so exciting in Women's Studies itself was to get to work

00:10:05.210 - 00:10:13.310

with people. And they, it helped them think in innovative ways, much more innovative ways, than if it had been

00:10:13.310 - 00:10:21.770

completely History readings or Literature readings or something else. And it also gave them degrees of freedom because there were

00:10:21.770 - 00:10:29.690

two historians I remember, but I think otherwise there was only one person per department. So they weren't. It was easier.

00:10:29.690 - 00:10:37.340

It's like being, going out of town or something. You know, they didn't have to worry about their reputation with their colleagues,

00:10:37.340 - 00:10:59.360

immediately, right? It was an easier thing to do. So it was fun. [ML] So you were director of Women's Studies for 6 years: between 1985 and 1989, [SH] That sounds... [ML] between 1985 and 1989, and then again fall semester of 1990 to 1992. That's what I have here. [SH] I don't know. Do you have my CV?

00:10:59.360 - 00:11:12.500

Because I have it on the CV and it's accurate there. And that's the only place I know how to think about it. Let me see. I was director from 1985 to 1991.

00:11:12.500 - 00:11:21.320

And then again in 1992-1993. 1991-1992, did Barbara take it or Marion took it for a year?

00:11:21.320 - 00:11:34.560

I mean, I was out here that year. [ML] I think it was Bonnie. [SH] Bonnie maybe? [ML] No, I'm sorry, Barbara and then Kate. [SH] Right. Did she take it after me though? [ML] In 1993 to 1994.

00:11:34.750 - 00:11:46.340

[SH] Okay. Yeah. Because by 1993 I was out here half a year. I taught. I commuted between Delaware. Once a year.

00:11:46.340 - 00:11:56.120

I commuted between Delaware and UCLA. There were six years I was commuting back and forth. I had a partner who had been made

00:11:56.120 - 00:12:04.310

a short-term job offer out here for two years. So I was visiting here and I would visit here and

00:12:04.310 - 00:12:13.670

then I, and then she got offered a permanent position and I started so I figured "If I'm ever going to go on the job market again,

00:12:13.670 - 00:12:21.080

then now's the time." And so I applied for several jobs. I was 60 at this point, so I'm going on the job market at 60.

00:12:21.080 - 00:12:29.490

And meanwhile, UCLA had been recruiting me because I had been teaching their feminist philosophy course, which they had been offering

00:12:29.490 - 00:12:38.130

since the goddess rose out of the ocean in like 1971 or something. They had this feminist philosophy course on the books.

00:12:38.130 - 00:12:44.270

And every feminist philosopher in the country had taught it, at some, They never, they would never hire anybody to teach it,

00:12:44.270 - 00:12:50.540

but they would bring in various people to teach it. And so they were thrilled to have me in there.

00:12:50.540 - 00:12:58.820

And I've, and that. I've taught that course regularly since I got here. So the last course I

00:12:58.820 - 00:13:15.250

taught at Delaware was in fall 1995. And so I would teach fall semester in Delaware, and I had a grant one year and a sabbatical

00:13:15.250 - 00:13:23.800

another year and what not. And then I would do another term over two quarters here in those years.

00:13:23.800 - 00:13:36.970

And I finally decided to jump ship. And Delaware paid all my, kept me on their health insurance while I was flitting

00:13:36.970 - 00:13:46.030

back and forth and so forth. I was sorry to leave Delaware, but it was, you know, I'd been there, by that time I think it was 19 years by the time I left.

00:13:46.030 - 00:13:54.600

The last five of those years were less involved with Delaware. [ML] So in that early period when you were a director full-time?

00:13:54.600 - 00:14:07.350

[SH] Yes. [ML] That was when the effort to push for a major was in place? [SH] Yes. Yeah. That's right. [ML] I wonder, what you can describe about

00:14:07.350 - 00:14:16.070

the process of developing the major or getting it approved at the University. [SH] It was a huge struggle. It was a huge struggle.

00:14:16.070 - 00:14:24.890

I think by the time it got approved, I was pretty much not here. Right? [ML] I think so. You were on your, [SH] I was. When did it get approved?

00:14:24.890 - 00:14:33.260

[ML] Academic year of 1993-94. [SH] Yeah, so 1993, 1994, I was out here that year full-time, I think. Right? Oh, no.

00:14:33.260 - 00:14:48.150

In 1993 was the last year. Yeah, 1993-94. I was no longer directing. I was half-time for another two years. 1993. 1994 or 1995. And then winter of, fall of 1995.

00:14:48.150 - 00:14:58.130

So what did we do? We we went around to a number of. We made appointments with the Chairs of a number of

00:14:58.130 - 00:15:08.590

departments and talked with them about what. We were worried. How would we get faculty freed up? You know, because it was

00:15:08.590 - 00:15:20.180

already a squeeze on, on faculty. I think the big hiring days, were slowing down by that time. And so there weren't

00:15:20.180 - 00:15:28.940

as many new faculty coming in. So we went around and talked with different departments about how they were. Most of them were very welcoming,

00:15:28.940 - 00:15:35.750

but it took. It was a lot of work and it was a lot of this was going to be a commitment of resources.

00:15:35.750 - 00:15:45.200

So it was let me see, what kinds of resources would it be? Well, that was the beginning of the end. Kind of once you have a department

00:15:45.200 - 00:15:53.220

and you have a kind of autonomy, to hire faculty and so forth. It still has to go through the University. But a program is another matter.

00:15:53.220 - 00:16:06.170

that's dispersed out into the departments. So I I just remember that it was a continual effort over three years maybe

00:16:06.170 - 00:16:13.470

of meeting and planning and scheming. And, and then by the time the final push came, I wasn't on campus.

00:16:13.470 - 00:16:30.270

I think yeah, [ML] Do you think that there was resistance among the different Chairs and other departments to share their faculty because if they're teaching courses in Women's Studies it's cross-listed with Women's Studies, but it might not be their prime choice of classes?

00:16:30.870 - 00:16:39.160

[SH] They wanted them for their courses. [ML] Right. [SH] I mean, it's a terrible problem at UCLA now. I mean it's very difficult to squeeze courses out of

00:16:39.160 - 00:16:46.870

some of these departments and UCLA department, only became a department maybe five years ago,

00:16:46.870 - 00:17:00.380

something like that. Though, it offered courses in 1971. Its first Women's Studies course. It was huge, and so forth. So my memory is that

00:17:00.380 - 00:17:11.230

even back then there was this, it was difficult to. On the one hand, it was difficult to squeeze faculty out of the department obligations.

00:17:11.230 - 00:17:19.450

On the other hand, feminism was much more widespread and it was much more. They'd had, what,

00:17:19.450 - 00:17:24.950

20 years of it in their disciplinary organizations, and their journals. And I remember there was

00:17:24.950 - 00:17:30.530

a guy in the English Department, I'm losing his name, who was the editor of the Jane Austen journal.

00:17:30.530 - 00:17:40.190

And there was just so, it was, it was kind of a mix. It wasn't so much about the legitimacy of the field.

00:17:40.190 - 00:17:46.610

As I recollect though, maybe that they just didn't dare mentioned it, but at that point we were all senior faculty.

00:17:46.610 - 00:17:57.310

So it wasn't that so much as just squeeze on resources and, and still I think a sense that maybe Women's Studies would go away.

00:17:57.310 - 00:18:14.790

You know, is this just a passing something? Yeah. So administratively, was it a good move to institutionalize a Major? What if they went away?

00:18:15.250 - 00:18:23.300

I don't know that they thought that, but I think that was probably in the middle of the night, they'd wake up and say "Maybe they'll go away."

00:18:23.300 - 00:18:40.340

[ML] Not yet. [SH] No. But meanwhile, I think Carol Hoeffiger was Provost around this time and Maggie was already or very soon would

00:18:40.340 - 00:18:53.840

become pro, up in the administration. So that generation of, and Bonnie was way, folks that are original generation was way up in the University administration.

00:18:53.840 - 00:19:02.550

So, as I say, I don't think it was about at that point, the legitimacy of the topic. Maybe there was, you know,

00:19:02.550 - 00:19:11.640

I'm sure there were some people still trying to do Minerva's last gasp or something. No, not Minerva, excuse me, Medusa's last.

00:19:11.640 - 00:19:33.530

But I think terms of the general climate, it was more just about resources. [ML] And I. As we move in the '90s the issues of diversity in Women's Studies becomes more and more significant, did you see struggles around that, or concerns?

00:19:33.530 - 00:19:46.980

How we sort of expand who we are as Women's Studies? [SH] It was a constant issue. with having Gloria Hall and Maggie in, active in the department. And then there was a wonderful woman

00:19:46.980 - 00:19:54.410

who was our librarian for many years, I'm losing her last name, Carol something or other, who was African-American.

00:19:54.410 - 00:20:02.300

And she was our librarian for years. And so there was in the English Department, hired a Latino woman.

00:20:02.300 - 00:20:10.400

And there was an increasing number of women of color being involved with Women's Studies in a variety of ways.

00:20:10.400 - 00:20:21.950

There was an African, oh in History. There was Carol [ML] Marx? [SH] Marx. who Maggie worked with and ran this big Sociology summer program

00:20:21.950 - 00:20:29.960

for rising seniors. They ran it for, I don't know, maybe five years or something It was sponsored by the ASA and the two of them ran it,

00:20:29.960 - 00:20:38.540

and had all these young ones in there with sociologists of color. I went to all the lectures and everything. It was so fun.

00:20:38.540 - 00:20:45.890

They had like 30 students a year in the summer there for like six or eight weeks. And so there was a, and meanwhile,

00:20:45.890 - 00:20:52.280

the very good connections had been made between Women's Studies and the Black Studies, African-American Studies.

00:20:52.280 - 00:21:02.730

I forget what it was called, and the Center for African-American Studies. And we did joint programs occasionally. When I taught

00:21:02.730 - 00:21:13.800

African and African-American philosophy. In 1991, maybe I think 1991-1992 was a cross-list with

00:21:13.800 - 00:21:23.610

African-American Studies. There wasn't, there wasn't struggle against it in Women's Studies in any way,

00:21:23.650 - 00:21:32.480

because all of us senior people, were really clear about what was supposed to be happening, but it was hard to

00:21:32.480 - 00:21:43.020

get it to happen when there wasn't a lot of hiring going on and Delaware is not in New York City, right?

00:21:43.020 - 00:21:52.790

I mean, it isn't. It is in the great East Coast wash though. It's much harder to get an African-American into UCLA,

00:21:52.790 - 00:22:01.850

which doesn't have that old black intellectual community that runs from Boston to Washington. And summers

00:22:01.850 - 00:22:10.340

on which island is Martha's Vineyard? Or somewhere there, this fab Henry Gates and all fabulous intellectuals all wash

00:22:10.340 - 00:22:19.580

back and fort. At UCLA, they feel isolated. There's a huge black population. And, but, it's not that there's no intellect,

00:22:19.580 - 00:22:28.190

black intellectual life out here, but it doesn't have the depth of stretch that it did on the East Coast. So, and Delaware

00:22:28.190 - 00:22:37.520

at least was in the corridor there, but it had a very bad history around race. Have they figured out yet who won the Civil War?

00:22:37.520 - 00:22:48.250

They hadn't when I was there. [ML] The canal is still a divide. [SH] They hadn't figured out when I was there. [ML] Do you? Part of your tenure was

00:22:48.250 - 00:23:01.480

to get two in-house half-time faculty hired. And I wonder if you have any recollections about the process of that because for a long time it was primarily the cross-listed classes.

00:23:01.480 - 00:23:11.960

And once we lost that line, there were not lines in Women's Studies. And so, obviously hiring even part-time faculty are resources.

00:23:11.960 - 00:23:16.490

So I wonder. [SH] Yes. Yeah. I can remember that very clearly. Sue and Cathy were

00:23:16.490 - 00:23:29.030

both Sociology graduate students, and we had hired graduate students to teach, I think the Introduction to Women's Studies maybe,

00:23:29.030 - 00:23:36.230

and maybe some other courses. So we didn't own any lines, but we had funding, enough funding to hire on

00:23:36.230 - 00:23:43.610

a course by course basis. I forget how many courses we were doing a year that way, but it got up to

00:23:43.610 - 00:23:51.820

a fairly significant number of, I don't know what it was, six or eight courses a year or something. I mean, I don't know what it was, but

00:23:51.820 - 00:23:58.940

I do know we had hired them to teach. I think they both had classes. I know they both had a class with me too because I

00:23:58.940 - 00:24:08.700

was a joint appointment to Sociology all those years. I never taught in the undergraduate program, but I, my presence in,

00:24:08.700 - 00:24:19.340

"in the department" enabled them to offer our graduate specialization on the exams or something or other in feminist theory or something.

00:24:19.340 - 00:24:29.280

I forget exactly what the rationale was, but it gave us that made three faculty, Sally and Maggie and me, who were in the area

00:24:29.280 - 00:24:38.570

of Gender and Society, or whatever. At any rate, so those I'm pretty sure they had had of course was me. Anyway,

00:24:38.570 - 00:24:46.250

I knew them and had been "supervising" them, hiring them year after year to teach those introductory level courses.

00:24:46.250 - 00:24:56.370

And so then at a certain point the question came, why not stabilize that with a regular half-time line?

00:24:56.370 - 00:25:04.870

I don't remember ever remember a certain amount of to-and-froing. I don't remember any big struggle over it.

00:25:04.870 - 00:25:15.440

I think it was a big problem to get it half-time. I think that when issues arose I was not there, I believe, or I was

00:25:15.440 - 00:25:24.020

on my way out or something. When those half-time, I mean, how long can you keep somebody untenured? On a half-time line and there had

00:25:24.020 - 00:25:38.830

been no requirement that they publish. And meanwhile, they'd both given fabulous service and teaching service. So we, at that point, it,

00:25:38.830 - 00:25:53.000

while I was directing, we multiplied the Intro courses into one for men. One focused on, and we had it was called, it was called Men and Masculinity.

00:25:53.000 - 00:26:01.140

And Jerry Terkel co-taught it, maybe with Kathy. I can't remember. Or did he just teach it?

00:26:01.140 - 00:26:08.960

And then after a year or two, the guys, we said the guys said they were afraid to have it on their records.

00:26:08.960 - 00:26:18.920

It looked like they didn't know how to do masculinity. [ML] Wow. [SH] And so we got Jerry, and we said, "Jerry, give us a macho title for this course."

00:26:18.920 - 00:26:26.730

And so he went away and thought about it for a week or two and came back and he said, "Men, Conflict, and Social Change."

00:26:26.730 - 00:26:35.580

Whoa! It was perfect. So that was, that was one new Introduction to Women's Studies. It filled up immediately.

00:26:35.580 - 00:26:43.300

And then Sue designed a one on Women and International Perspectives long before anybody else was doing anything on that.

00:26:43.300 - 00:26:53.110

You know, there was a little work on it, but I think we were quite path-breaking. She put together that course fabulously and mean-

00:26:53.110 - 00:27:01.700

And there was a third in addition to the regular Women's Studies, there was one that was focused on women in the professional tracks,

00:27:01.700 - 00:27:09.530

you know, who were in education. And I don't know who wanted more about how to succeed in business,

00:27:09.530 - 00:27:20.690

the glass ceiling and so forth. I mean, those kinds of issues And so, we had at least four Introductions

00:27:20.690 - 00:27:30.140

to Women's Studies at that point. And I, some of them were taught by faculty. But my impression is most of them, I mean, Jerry taught that

00:27:30.140 - 00:27:45.480

Men and Masculinity one. My impression was we had graduate students teaching. quite a few of them. [ML] I was reading the COPE document

00:27:45.480 - 00:28:02.450

that suggested to have consistent part-time faculty and it was pretty clear that in order to have the consistency of just knowing that you're going to have faculty, you need to have, to get those hires. [SH] Yeah. Another thing we did that is not exactly structural,

00:28:02.450 - 00:28:12.710

but in terms of the region, it sure was, is we founded the Delaware seminars in Women's Studies, which met, I think we were

00:28:12.710 - 00:28:19.700

meeting twice a year initially. And we modeled them on the Penn Women's Studies seminars, which had been modeled

00:28:19.700 - 00:28:29.480

on the Columbia seminars. And they were a wonderful format in which somebody on campus, one of our own faculty

00:28:29.480 - 00:28:36.820

would have the, would have a paper that would be read ahead of time and we'd invite in two

00:28:36.820 - 00:28:45.520

commentators from other places. So we had Carol Smith Rosenberg coming down from Penn and we, and there, there were so many colleges

00:28:45.520 - 00:28:54.640

in the region that we pulled in quite a few people for it. And we did it as dinner. You know, there'd be a cocktail hour.

00:28:54.640 - 00:29:09.970

We did it out in the, that dormitory campus. [ML] The women's hall? I remember some of them in the Blue and Gold. [SH] Did we do them? Oh, we did do them in the Blue and Gold, didn't we?

00:29:09.970 - 00:29:21.950

And then we did them out in that conference center. [ML] Clayton Hall? [SH] Yeah, Clayton Hall. And then we, it was.

00:29:21.950 - 00:29:30.720

First it was entirely faculty, then we let faculty bring a couple grad students. Everybody paid for their own dinner. It was a hassle to do,

00:29:30.720 - 00:29:44.660

collect money, and so forth and so on. But it really was a wonderful intellectual adventure. It was really terrific. [ML] And again help those cross-disciplinary conversations.

00:29:44.660 - 00:29:53.720

[SH] Cross-disciplinary networking in the region. They tended to be mostly our own faculty, but we sent the notice around and there was a scattering

00:29:53.720 - 00:30:05.940

of people from other places who came too. [ML] So one thing I also noticed in the documents is that while you were director? There was a push for a graduate certificate. [SH] Yes.

00:30:06.190 - 00:30:18.050

[ML] And we just now in 2002 are creating the graduate certificate officially. Fall of 2002. So I wonder if you can talk about some of the early issues to join in that?

00:30:18.050 - 00:30:29.750

[SH] Well, I think it was Minnesota had started. Had this, had cleverly figured out that graduate students paid for

00:30:29.750 - 00:30:44.480

about 12 credits for which they did not take courses. It was their dissertation writing chunk. And so they, Minnesota had offered, had designed a certificate program

00:30:44.480 - 00:30:51.090

that wouldn't cost students any more money because they were, had already paid for these credits. They had to pay for these credits anyway,

00:30:51.090 - 00:31:01.180

so they could take four courses, I think it was, in Women's Studies and have a certificate program.

00:31:01.180 - 00:31:10.670

So we were all abuzz all over the country about how to squiggle this thing into our own. I mean, it was so cleverly designed by

00:31:10.670 - 00:31:18.950

Minnesota that was kind of, you had to pay faculty to teach them. But student, there was no cost for students to take them

00:31:18.950 - 00:31:27.390

and it was only a certificate. So why isn't going to upset the scholarly standards they were about to defend against Women's Studies.

00:31:27.390 - 00:31:35.400

And so we, we, that was one where we went around and talked to department people too.

00:31:35.400 - 00:31:46.730

We offered a couple courses already. I taught, I know, I taught a feminist theory and I taught a postcolonial science,

00:31:46.730 - 00:31:56.870

I think, seem to think I know I did. I know it was beginning to do my own work on postcolonial science issues. And I taught that.

00:31:56.870 - 00:32:07.780

I had to teach them out of Sociology and Women's Studies, I guess, because Philosophy didn't have a, I forget how we actually arranged that.

00:32:07.780 - 00:32:17.480

So a few people were already offering graduate courses. The English Department definitely had graduate courses with a feminist focus.

00:32:17.480 - 00:32:24.490

And I think there were a couple coming out of History already. I'm unsure about that, but I seem to think there were.

00:32:24.490 - 00:32:34.960

And so then we looked about, where, hustled around to see where we could get other courses. And I remember Political Science was a possibility

00:32:34.960 - 00:32:44.080

because the canon in Political Philosophy and Philosophy are the same, largely the same in the history,

00:32:44.080 - 00:32:56.740

at any rate. They all read Plato and Hobbes and Locke and so forth. So we, we kind of cobbled together, we. I remember we were distributing fliers,

00:32:56.740 - 00:33:06.980

advertising around campus indicating what graduate courses were being offered in these departments in each year and getting

00:33:06.980 - 00:33:17.180

more graduate student involvement in it. I can't remember any encouragement that came from the administration on this project at all

00:33:17.180 - 00:33:26.940

because that gets into a serious set of resource commitments then if you're going to be funding graduate students in any way out of this.

00:33:26.940 - 00:33:33.860

So the blessing of this, of the certificate program was that it didn't require any student funding and

00:33:33.860 - 00:33:45.530

we were not admitting the students. They were students who were admitted by these very legitimate departments, right? So I just remember

00:33:45.530 - 00:33:57.040

it was, the last few years I was there, I was always in some department Chair's office chatting about something or other. [ML] Did they try to run when they saw you coming? [SH] They didn't actually.

00:33:57.040 - 00:34:06.170

They enjoyed thinking about the issues. Some were friendlier than others to it, and saw more opportunities for their. Many were very

00:34:06.170 - 00:34:12.320

welcoming and very, wanted their students to have that kind of training because it was, it was, as it remains

00:34:12.320 - 00:34:20.090

a big plus on the job market, to have some kind of formal, be able to teach this kind of course, which the students are demanding.

00:34:20.090 - 00:34:32.460

And there you have a certificate in it. So you have a graduate certificate now? [ML] We will now. We're starting in the fall. [SH] That's wonderful. [ML] In 2012. [SH] That's terrific.

00:34:33.970 - 00:34:49.580

[ML] Well, the other thing we had just formally done this past year is become a department. So we were a program for 38 plus years, and are now officially a department. [SH] Excuse me, I need to pause

00:34:49.580 - 00:34:54.120

and put some eye drops in. I'm so sorry. My. This happens.