00:00:00.560 - 00:00:09.720

So this is August 13th. This is Rebecca Johnson Melvin, and I am taking notes for an oral history in

00:00:09.720 - 00:00:21.930

the voices of 1968 project. We are in the One Button Studio or cyber and he worked Delaware. Yes, I am rider carry on faculty,

00:00:21.930 - 00:00:30.030

assistant professor in the Department of Human Development, Family Sciences at the University of Delaware has College of Education and Development.

00:00:30.030 - 00:00:43.730

Again, it's August 13th, 2018. And we are here with Clair and harming carry or husband and wife been married for many, many, many years.

00:00:43.730 - 00:00:54.320

They are also my parents and full disclosure. So what we're gonna do is we're going to ask them to introduce themselves. Say, where you were born,

00:00:54.320 - 00:01:03.390

what year you arrived in Wilmington, if you're not from here, of course. And then tell us a little bit about how you kind of connected in the 1960s.

00:01:04.600 - 00:01:19.240

Hi, I'm Claire. Claire will alarm carry. And I arrived in Rome until September 13, 1965.

00:01:19.240 - 00:01:37.440

I came here because of employment. I had been recruited by DuPont of Hercules. Hercules I came as a campus. I'm a little bit with her field.

00:01:39.100 - 00:01:55.460

I really get engaged. Volunteers. At which time I met Hahn. Actually, I think he

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recruited me to become a volunteer because he had heard that there was black canvas town. He of course, wanted to meet her.

00:02:06.260 - 00:02:20.900

And the young lady who was my roommate, introduce, introduce, decided that as the common volunteer as people settled.

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Alright. That's almost true. Okay. At the time when the cleric came to

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Wilmington and I was in the possession of a program director at people's Settlement Association. Where is that?

00:02:41.320 - 00:02:55.880

At 04:08 eastern street. Just several blocks from where I grew up in the 400 block of the 5th Street. And during the years

00:02:55.880 - 00:03:07.440

when I was young and elementary and junior high school or even high school, people sell them. It was for all white.

00:03:07.440 - 00:03:17.270

There was an old white instead. Staff as long way, we serve white families. Their focus was on trying to

00:03:17.270 - 00:03:28.100

help people who were immigrants to this country to adjust to life in America. That's their historical mission.

00:03:28.100 - 00:03:39.390

And through the years the programs, the chains, as people become more acclimated to living in the United States.

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But in the mid 60s there was a real push to serve the African American community. And Jim Sills, who was a supervisor then at the Family Court.

00:04:01.020 - 00:04:14.390

The state of Delaware, was recruited and became the Executive Director of people settlement. I was on the staff of the Family Court,

00:04:14.390 - 00:04:35.660

was a supervisor and Mr. cells recruited me to be as program director, working before there to work, first of all, at the Department of Public Welfare college.

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After graduating from college and then doing the proofs that in the, in the armed forces. So I started at the Department of Welfare in

00:04:47.260 - 00:05:00.740

March or April 1958 and was encouraged to go to graduate school at the University of Pennsylvania where I earned

00:05:00.740 - 00:05:10.490

my master's degree in social work. My degree was in casework that those topped at that time, you could either measuring case

00:05:10.490 - 00:05:22.910

where group work or community organization and when Mr. Silva Me about joining the staff that people settlement as program director,

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I had to remind him. I really didn't have any experience in group work because settlement houses in community centers

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hired group workers and community organizers. They have very little knee in terms of their program focuses or foci, also hiring a caseworkers.

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Nonetheless, he said, Oh, arm, and I'm convinced you could do it. And I accepted his invitation. Program Director, I was in charge of

00:06:01.100 - 00:06:11.810

us weren't as the title implies, I was in charge of the programs that the settlement offered. One of the needs that

00:06:11.810 - 00:06:22.760

I immediately identify it was the need to have African-American adults as role models for the youth that we were serving,

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especially the young ladies. We did have a group work are there. And we needed an African American man. I learned through your roommate that you

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were come to Wilmington. I did search you out and I'm glad that I convinced you to join the staff as a volunteer.

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Terrific science initial volunteerism was as coach of the basketball girl and we became the champion in this 1.60, 566.

00:07:07.470 - 00:07:13.780

Yeah. Okay. So you said that you had a roommate. Where were you living in?

00:07:13.780 - 00:07:28.620

Where you live in? When I came to Logan, I had difficult to find in house. The Fair Housing Act was passed 60,

00:07:28.620 - 00:07:45.340

65. It was before. I had difficulty finding housing because because I was black and I lived at the YWCA,

00:07:45.340 - 00:08:03.220

YWCA had a facility for transients. And my mother, a board member of the Phillis Wheatley branch of the YWCA and Augusta, Georgia.

00:08:03.220 - 00:08:23.360

And she drove me to momentum and the positive me at the YWCA in Wilmington, Delaware, which was done at King Nathan King. And of course they had loose

00:08:23.360 - 00:08:33.860

I was I was beyond what I guess the credentials required for transit because they wanted people who were truly transients,

00:08:33.860 - 00:08:44.200

not chemist, but I had nowhere else to live. As it turned out, one of the program directors, there was

00:08:44.200 - 00:08:56.840

an African-American woman who befriended me. And her roommate was leaving, getting married, and she invited me to come and

00:08:56.840 - 00:09:08.250

join her in her to share her apartment. I was at the YWCA for about six months before I moved in with Sylvia, the bows.

00:09:08.250 - 00:09:16.100

And that was the person who was also a hormone because she was a professional social worker while they were in

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a professional social work group together. And she said, I have a new room and she's a canvas than one. So these Black women that you were

00:09:26.360 - 00:09:42.540

living with, that was a black woman. So all the intervals. But I served as the coach for the basketball team,

00:09:42.540 - 00:10:01.760

then launched a group called The team point. So this was in 65 you're coaching? Sixth day, probably 66 because that first year

00:10:01.760 - 00:10:09.170

I would say I was I was in school here at the university. I went to school at that time alone

00:10:09.170 - 00:10:17.460

or the chemistry professors here. All right, Well, let's use that as an entree point then. We're back in 65 now 65, 66.

00:10:17.460 - 00:10:27.290

You know that your your your program director in a kind of organization that was particularly set up to serve

00:10:27.290 - 00:10:33.860

white immigrants that were coming. But however, you had switched the program focus to focus on the black community at the time.

00:10:33.860 - 00:10:40.220

Mom, you had established a program that responded to the needs of what you saw were for black young girls or

00:10:40.220 - 00:10:45.950

teenage girls, I'm assuming. What were some of the things that you remember, what were some of the trends that you

00:10:45.950 - 00:10:52.900

saw in the on the east side of Wilmington that you felt that needs to respond to a team queens, and that you felt that

00:10:52.900 - 00:11:05.330

Respond with other programs. What was it like them? Well, when when Claire came aboard and to volunteer

00:11:05.330 - 00:11:18.070

waiver or concept basically was that the girls would join because they liked basketball where they wanted to have fun.

00:11:18.070 - 00:11:29.350

And we sold there, be involved in these clubs programs and these recreational programs as a way to transmit to them.

00:11:29.350 - 00:11:41.870

Other skills are as blogs and focus that they need to have fun. We wanted these membership, e.g. when the queen teens to

00:11:41.870 - 00:12:00.160

be a learning experience for them, through their membership in the team queens, they would learn that some of the kinds of manners and etiquette that

00:12:00.160 - 00:12:13.630

young girls that he needed to learn. I can remember there was a group of female volunteers, white volunteers. And I remember around Christmas,

00:12:13.630 - 00:12:28.760

they had a luncheon. And one of the things they serve, I don't know why they saw mine, but it was a tossed salad.

00:12:28.760 - 00:12:41.060

And when the kids got to the room where it was being, so then they were told about the salad. Instead, we don't see any salvage.

00:12:41.060 - 00:12:56.770

Where's the chicken with the tuna phase? So we've never seen them like that. It was things like that that they weren't exposed to

00:12:56.770 - 00:13:10.300

through a bit about being in these clubs, they learned. Well also, I don't ever remember this. Harmonics rationale when I said,

00:13:10.300 - 00:13:20.000

I don't know anything about, alright, played basketball in high school when the course some in high school and intramural and college.

00:13:20.000 - 00:13:28.100

But the coach. And then of course, when it started the team quiz, what is his area?

00:13:28.100 - 00:13:38.760

Remember this very well. He says, role model leads me to say, of course, last time we were Black. African American.

00:13:40.270 - 00:13:56.030

Negro may need to sit somebody else, the color of their skin rather than other than their teachers. They've never seen a black canvas with

00:13:56.030 - 00:14:04.610

what most people hadn't seen. A black kid was like. Yeah, I said. So he convinced me

00:14:04.610 - 00:14:16.130

as I don't do this very well, but let's switch out to 65, 67, we build up to 60 days, but let's take a little bit

00:14:16.130 - 00:14:30.380

more about what's your, what's your lived experience as the first black chemist? And Hercules was

00:14:30.380 - 00:14:46.850

probably not as difficult. Well, overtly it was not because they were people who apparently saw me as something abnormal.

00:14:46.850 - 00:14:54.580

And I can recall when I came for my interview, that was in the days we would wear suits for interviews.

00:14:54.580 - 00:15:05.840

And I wore a little Jackie Kennedy pill box hat for and white girls to my interview. When Dr. Robinson came

00:15:05.840 - 00:15:15.530

to pick me up at the Hotel Du Pont, they did not know that that was black. Do you remember Dr. Robinson's firstName? John Robinson.

00:15:15.530 - 00:15:25.790

Very well. Because I why do I remember? So I stayed very, very, very close to the last time

00:15:25.790 - 00:15:35.110

I saw him was when he came to my retirement. Oh, wow. That was in what year? 2000 to 2003.

00:15:35.110 - 00:15:51.320

So between 1960 and he was also instrumental coordinating they trip for harm and as part of his doctoral program, harm and did a study with warm

00:15:51.320 - 00:16:07.910

about the Hercules plants and Amsterdam. Dr. Robinson key set that up and he was very, very significant figure in my life. Then that's fine when I think about

00:16:07.910 - 00:16:15.540

my experience with us, yes, there were some very difficult times of software, but some very, very good.

00:16:15.640 - 00:16:28.380

I worked for a novel and back the weld workloads on who was who was my mentor. But or B, you are a Dr.

00:16:28.780 - 00:16:45.140

and so getting back to your initial question was, I was probably there was a lot of southern continents and

00:16:45.140 - 00:16:58.800

then they were helping me monitoring me. I was put into a lab with three other chemist, very, very, very strong cameras, University of Illinois,

00:16:58.800 - 00:17:10.960

MIT, and so forth, who helped me in. Technically, I was very, very much protected. I will, I will say

00:17:10.960 - 00:17:16.140

something that was a commodity, but because they didn't know until I got here, this woman is black.

00:17:16.140 - 00:17:29.550

And you know, MIT, you came out of this. But I have ohio universities where it's behind.

00:17:29.550 - 00:17:40.950

And I had one of the reasons that I came to the University of Delaware was because when I was in a high diversity,

00:17:40.950 - 00:17:52.570

I have placed out of things like organic chemistry. So because I was very strong, theoretically, the HBCU was lacking the practical aspects.

00:17:52.570 - 00:18:00.760

I had placed out of organic because I could sail through on the exams. When I got the Hercules.

00:18:00.760 - 00:18:09.810

Know much about the beakers and move this to the admin. Absolutely no instrumentation. So that's what they told you heard of her.

00:18:09.810 - 00:18:17.590

But I came here. I started with Hercules on September 13th and I started at the University of Delaware

00:18:17.590 - 00:18:26.530

on September 24 for something that might some advanced training and I took that took the first semester.

00:18:26.530 - 00:18:38.880

Classes and events Live. A goal is something that became really very large and very, very, very much acquainted

00:18:38.880 - 00:18:47.060

with the professor. Well, so here we are. We're in 65.66 data. Sounds like you're kind of well-established.

00:18:47.060 - 00:18:57.770

You're from Wilmington. Mom, you're kind of getting more. You're new. You're a black woman who works in a predominantly white me award incentives.

00:18:57.770 - 00:19:10.070

And there were 22. You were living in the y because the segregated housing. What other social you are also living

00:19:10.070 - 00:19:21.280

during a pretty intense racial climate, political climate. Tell me what you remember between 605-60-6607 that led up to maybe 68.

00:19:21.280 - 00:19:36.490

What are some things that jump out to you? Because I went on to say, Where do you live and who own the apartment. I mentioned earlier that

00:19:36.490 - 00:19:49.680

this young woman until the bar, so it was a program director at invited me to join her apartment. We lived was on 7th Street,

00:19:49.680 - 00:20:05.010

7th Sadler, French and Cain. You mentioned king, and it was the top floor of what was the doctors offices?

00:20:05.830 - 00:20:19.280

We lived above the offices, but Dr. Anderson, Leon and the sounds of pioneer black Dr. in Wilmington, Leon Anderson. And you have heard that name.

00:20:19.280 - 00:20:30.320

He was one of the very, very, very key people in the rebuilding or something that the layer may chair. Okay. But that Anderson had

00:20:30.320 - 00:20:42.660

daughters who had gone to Fisk University, one of whom was very, very, very good friends. Carolyn. Carolyn.

00:20:42.660 - 00:20:56.550

So yes, he was accepting of oh, this is standard out and whatever. The other was a Dr. Woodrow Wilson. And he wasn't like meal.

00:20:56.550 - 00:21:08.120

And so even though it was, I had never lived in an urban and I didn't grow up. But even though that was I

00:21:08.120 - 00:21:16.190

felt very protected after I think I do step of about six months because Silvia that merit about six months before we married,

00:21:16.190 - 00:21:25.620

never be all file and moved out. So I was there alone, but very much protected. So you lived in a black owned apartment?

00:21:25.620 - 00:21:33.320

Yes. Clearly, God yet. Wow, that's fascinating. So this was 65-67 or

00:21:33.320 - 00:21:42.770

66 to six and 6.7 because I was at the why first for about six months and then I moved with Sylvia and then stay

00:21:42.770 - 00:21:55.290

there until we got married in six to seven. So tell me a little bit about what were some of the things that you were seeing you remember from that time?

00:21:55.570 - 00:22:05.930

I guess some of the things that come to my mind are things that I confronted, you know, three blocks

00:22:05.930 - 00:22:21.770

away when I grew up on the east side. Woken by where exactly was your house? For 25th, which is now across from what's cool.

00:22:21.770 - 00:22:33.400

Approach. I'm pile pile elementary near St. Mary's. And down from Bancroft. Yeah.

00:22:33.400 - 00:22:46.550

Done for bankruptcy. But the one of the more Holden memories was walking by people,

00:22:46.550 - 00:23:00.130

settlement associations, iron fence. They had a wading pool. And that pool was filled with white kids and I just wanted to go into that room so badly.

00:23:00.130 - 00:23:15.290

It just looked like it was filled with blood. So erotic, but that I should have been the program director Center that I couldn't participate in as

00:23:15.290 - 00:23:26.170

a young man and ultimately became the executive director of that center following Jim's cells, who was the first black Executive Director,

00:23:26.170 - 00:23:36.380

outlets and second, like the executive director. I'll phone names out here just for the benefit of whoever

00:23:36.380 - 00:23:46.550

is going to be doing research to the program. The person that the settlement when I came aboard, was doing work with girl to

00:23:46.550 - 00:23:57.990

a social worker named Jean Michener, gene missionary. And the social worker who was working with boys.

00:23:58.090 - 00:24:12.810

They just left me but it will come back but they weren't. So when did you become the Executive Director?

00:24:14.650 - 00:24:25.210

Martin Luther King was shot? Yeah. Okay. So when we first got married, which one is the end of 1967.

00:24:25.210 - 00:24:41.080

So he probably came from executive like it was in August of that year before Dr. King's. Okay. Because when we married,

00:24:41.080 - 00:24:55.810

you were Executive Director? Yes, he was. I used to leave a research center in this rather clearly of

00:24:55.810 - 00:25:07.850

raids on, I said all goods. I've met the board president at that time and he had a beard. And I always wanted to wear a beard.

00:25:07.850 - 00:25:20.120

But when I was out of school, out of college and working for the welfare department, if I got a note from Elizabeth Wilson,

00:25:20.120 - 00:25:34.580

who was the county superintendent of the public Assistance Division of welfare. That it was unprofessional and mine wasn't even appeared.

00:25:34.580 - 00:25:43.370

It was just a little cooked. So when, when I met the president, he had a beard. And I say, well, the President

00:25:43.370 - 00:25:53.930

of the Board has a beard. He kept telling me that I can have one. And I've hit a beer at every step. It's not quite willing to say yes,

00:25:53.930 - 00:26:08.140

moms would not let him March down the aisle with okay. So let's let's try to stay in that time and

00:26:08.140 - 00:26:15.380

just keep pushing each other memory. So we're in 67 we're in August of 67 years preparing to get married. Of course.

00:26:15.380 - 00:26:28.500

Josie was just knelt and Josie Cadmus was the president of the board, dr. Holden. So here we are in 67 again.

00:26:28.500 - 00:26:37.330

Jim cells then moves on to what position? Well, it did two things. First of all, he moved out of people, sell them.

00:26:37.330 - 00:26:45.320

Yeah. One of the concepts then for settlement houses is that the staff live they settled in the communities where they were located.

00:26:45.320 - 00:26:54.980

Oh, that's cool. And Jim and Evelyn had an apartment on the second floor, but he and I

00:26:54.980 - 00:27:04.680

recognized we needed daycare facilities. So he moved out and we developed a daycare center on the second floor people settlement.

00:27:04.680 - 00:27:17.290

He moved to a house, so he's 6th Street. I remember. He went on to become greener Wilmington neighborhood.

00:27:17.290 - 00:27:29.910

Sentence didn't mean becoming segment before you. Well, know, when the people settlement with one of four.

00:27:29.920 - 00:27:39.650

Settlement houses in Wilmington, word neighborhood centers around the north side, that was Kingswood community center.

00:27:39.650 - 00:27:52.970

On the west side, that was wisdom Neighborhood House. And on the east side there were two Christina Community Center,

00:27:52.970 - 00:28:06.080

which was seven church streets. People settlement, which was at Lombard Street. The United Way, done a study.

00:28:06.080 - 00:28:17.570

And they were looking at ways that these settlement houses could be operated more efficiently and effectively. So they formed an organization

00:28:17.570 - 00:28:27.590

and umbrella organization called the Association of greed or Wilmington neighborhood centers. And Jim sills was

00:28:27.590 - 00:28:40.190

elected the first Executive Director. And when he left for that position, the board at people settlement hired me as executive director.

00:28:40.190 - 00:28:54.010

But Parma went on to become a director of that also. Oh, you didn't know that? I do. Yeah. Well, after a couple of years,

00:28:54.010 - 00:29:05.900

National Federation of settlements and neighborhood houses, which was located in New York, decided that they would

00:29:05.900 - 00:29:22.030

be more effective in getting resources for their member agencies if they had an office in Washington DC. So they hired mirror sills gyms

00:29:22.030 - 00:29:33.800

as the executive director. So he left the association and became the executive director of the Washington Office of

00:29:33.800 - 00:29:43.170

the National Federation of settlement houses. Then that board hired me from people settlement. So it's sort of like,

00:29:43.170 - 00:29:56.840

uh, we've been playing hopscotch. She didn't follow him to become a step to medic for all of these community centers served mostly black families,

00:29:56.840 - 00:30:09.680

except the one at Weston. Weston predominantly white families. The Italian who's in the neighborhood of eighth and Lincoln,

00:30:09.680 - 00:30:23.450

which is where it was located. The director was a guy named a lady named France. Both Zoe, I think for a period of time

00:30:23.450 - 00:30:32.530

or husband Jim was also a social worker, but I don t think Jim was divert Francis bizarrely was the director of people

00:30:32.530 - 00:30:51.760

of Western neighborhood house Then. Christina Cooper, cooper, John Coltrane, and Cooper. I've erased the Kingswood.

00:30:51.760 - 00:31:04.990

Kingswood did something unusual. They hired their board president, Nixon, to become the executive director, even though he did not

00:31:04.990 - 00:31:17.470

have any college training. But they thought that because Keynes would belong to this association group,

00:31:17.470 - 00:31:30.760

leadership of that group could compensate for the fact that he liked, you know, professional training. But as a matter of fact,

00:31:30.760 - 00:31:42.020

instead of our being able to coordinate the programs, these settlement houses and community centers,

00:31:42.020 - 00:31:57.170

they've resisted, we call it the association. They resisted association control because each one wanted to be independent. So my job was to try to coordinate

00:31:57.170 - 00:32:07.040

the four executive directors and their agencies in each of these executive directors and those agencies have their own board of

00:32:07.040 - 00:32:17.140

director and they were responsible to their boards. So if I came up with an idea, if I couldn't sell it to them,

00:32:17.140 - 00:32:26.460

I got very little cooperation because I had no authority over them to say, listen, we're gonna do it this way in the story that didn't exist.

00:32:26.460 - 00:32:40.720

So we tried to convince the way that the there were there was a structural defect, but they weren't ready to try to change that.

00:32:40.720 - 00:32:58.680

They didn't want to go against the executive director of the hormone, Jim Baker. Community organizer.

00:32:58.680 - 00:33:09.110

North Carolina? Oh, no, no. No. He was we had a continent but community development program and he was.

00:33:09.110 - 00:33:19.790

The head of that community development program. But Jim didn't have a degree either. So I convinced the board to

00:33:19.790 - 00:33:31.350

give him credit to years of experience for every two equate to one year of college. He had also served on

00:33:31.350 - 00:33:43.670

the surface of the Marines. I don't remember that. Tell you that. I want to go back because the association should come into

00:33:43.670 - 00:33:55.550

existence until maybe early seventies. I wanted to go back if it's okay with you. The day that Dr. Martin Luther King was assassinated,

00:33:55.550 - 00:34:04.430

April the fourth, 1968, I was the executive director of people settlement. And during those days,

00:34:04.430 - 00:34:18.140

the settlement had an annual dinner. And that was the tongue we brought in. And it was to raise funds, give awards to outstanding volunteers.

00:34:18.140 - 00:34:32.810

And we have normally had the traditional to have the award dinner in the gymnasium at people's settlement. But this year we decided we would have

00:34:32.810 - 00:34:42.950

it at Ben Crow school right across the street because we anticipated a lot larger crowd and so forth. And this was during the time

00:34:42.950 - 00:34:54.540

when black decry of Black Power was going all across the nation. Stokely Carmichael, and there was a local woman is in Chapter no, no, no.

00:34:54.540 - 00:35:10.170

But the big cry for Black Power was heard it. Urban areas, mainly. The person we selected as the speaker was Dr. Nathan, right?

00:35:10.170 - 00:35:19.780

And he was from Newark, New Jersey. And he had written a book called Black Power and urban unrest. We just felt that he would be

00:35:19.780 - 00:35:27.820

ideal to speak to, you know, to explain what, you know, what is this thing we're calling black powder?

00:35:27.820 - 00:35:37.270

How does it work? What is it? What are the potential benefits of it and so forth. So we were across

00:35:37.270 - 00:35:51.610

the street from people settled at Bancroft in their cafeteria and going on with the program. When we heard the news that Dr.

00:35:51.610 - 00:36:05.990

Kay. Taking me back to. When you say I heard the news, what would that look like? Send the middle will speak to us.

00:36:06.060 - 00:36:25.890

And what? Someone came in and pass. Carmen, if you remember, that's absolutely fine. I'm all for months. Pass the note.

00:36:25.890 - 00:36:37.340

And I remember that. Right, Sam. Stopping or something. And then of course, that's when somebody made the comment.

00:36:37.340 - 00:36:57.880

At that point, they have not announced the death. We poll came. There was a young man named,

00:36:57.880 - 00:37:14.780

ancestors were around them who did an invitation of James Brown, who was very popular as a singer and dancer. And now was the

00:37:14.780 - 00:37:29.380

main entertainment that night. And it just seemed like when he was doing that dance, just didn't see. Right. We just couldn't connect to it at all.

00:37:29.380 - 00:37:41.180

Finally, we just we just cancel the rest of the program to allow folks to go home and get next to their television sets.

00:37:42.050 - 00:37:59.470

Kate's condition. They have no clear before we can solve it. Now. As people are leaving, that was stripped and then

00:38:01.790 - 00:38:17.240

the initial announcement was let's continue with that evening. Would you remember you're in so Bancroft on the east side?

00:38:17.240 - 00:38:22.720

I would I wouldn't call it a deeply desire, but it's right there. It's right across the street from people settled,

00:38:22.720 - 00:38:29.920

which at the time was a predominantly Why it's still is a mostly black community with mostly those black families over there.

00:38:29.920 - 00:38:39.450

And you've been left out of there and drove to where you all were living in? Odd. And so what do you remember from that night?

00:38:39.450 - 00:39:00.400

It's all blurry for me. After leaving. I can't remember all of the riots and started started within a day or so. Started it was more

00:39:00.400 - 00:39:17.590

concentrated on the west side of Wilmington in an area called the Valley. And they used to say why the belly, because it's the valley from

00:39:17.590 - 00:39:30.370

the third 23rd solved the valley of the shadow of death. And it was kind of a warning to white people. Be careful though, come into the valley

00:39:30.370 - 00:39:43.480

because you might end up getting hurt. I don t know that this was serious talk to me. It was just more Folks be way off.

00:39:43.480 - 00:39:53.840

It was just so much pain and suffering that people had. People wanted to lash out and they blamed it on white people.

00:39:54.180 - 00:40:03.040

They established the perfume before you go there. And why do you think Why do you think the arrest was in

00:40:03.040 - 00:40:22.550

the valley and not in other black area? Well, by the time of the riots, the area that was most heavily populated with black,

00:40:22.890 - 00:40:38.510

the area called the Valley. Over our own tab, most Street, West, Madison Street. On the east side,

00:40:38.510 - 00:40:56.630

I'm really torn down so many urban developed. But they hadn't done that on the west side. And there were gangs, more gangs over on the west side.

00:40:56.910 - 00:41:12.290

A group called the blocky blacks group called the Zulu nation, or along the west side. And the west side and Northeast were

00:41:12.290 - 00:41:28.510

areas where there was younger population of black men, young black man, cry for black power. There, looking, hearing what

00:41:28.510 - 00:41:47.020

was happening in other cities, emulation of those activities from other cities played a hand. On the side there was

00:41:47.020 - 00:41:57.280

a group called secretes. Offers grew cold downtown. There were gangs all around them. They they form two.

00:41:57.280 - 00:42:11.260

They organized into his group called the Wilmington emergency Action Council. All these guy and said it was to try to

00:42:11.260 - 00:42:23.150

bring harmony to these gangs because they bullied, picked up some of the worst practices of other cities.

00:42:24.510 - 00:42:36.620

On the sell side itself, grids. There was a group pool, assaults street in Riverside. It was BJ's corner.

00:42:36.620 - 00:42:50.580

Bj. And I couldn't remember this, but maybe the researcher can be j. Those that nature, those are the initials young man who got killed.

00:42:50.580 - 00:43:09.710

I cannot remember his name but his initials or BJ. And only I said these sides bumpers and that BJ has nothing to do with BJTs.

00:43:16.380 - 00:43:22.450

So you said that there were there were these gangs and what were they doing and how did that was this in relation

00:43:22.450 - 00:43:31.670

to the writing that was so prevalent? Well, I think they were a part of it. Another meeting. So there was kind of a structure.

00:43:31.670 - 00:43:44.860

That's all it needed was a candle light to cut those set at all. They were in fact, there was a young man who

00:43:44.860 - 00:43:58.090

was killed in a gang fight. State was George Brown. And the lived it. Lumbered in high streets on the side,

00:43:58.090 - 00:44:08.140

I grew up with his brother and his older brother and older older sister. Actually, it after we moved away from 5th Street,

00:44:08.140 - 00:44:17.560

I ended up going to college. I came back, I found out that George was seen as a leader. I was, it was quite spread

00:44:17.560 - 00:44:32.040

St. Louis at these talents when he was growing up. But you never know about. So go ahead. So just to give a brief moment,

00:44:32.040 - 00:44:39.940

you remember about the climate around this variety that was so bad that they had to call the national guides and say,

00:44:39.940 - 00:44:53.280

I don't think it was that bad. What I was going to say. Let me let me give him a break because he really has a much more memory

00:44:53.280 - 00:45:04.120

of what happened. I was rarely in town. I was absolutely Research Center, which was out your whole cast.

00:45:04.120 - 00:45:15.160

And we lived in art. And so my route all backwards, I will go through green bill and so forth and then

00:45:15.160 - 00:45:31.640

out to get to r. So I rarely came in town. But I do recall at that time I had an African-America. That's a whole nother story.

00:45:31.640 - 00:45:51.190

Hercules had launched a program where they connected with, oh, I see. I see is Leon Sullivan. Anyway, it was a program where to put

00:45:51.190 - 00:46:02.520

these in. Oh, I see. They were bringing welfare recipients of the roles of putting them into industrial sites.

00:46:02.520 - 00:46:10.990

And Hercules and DuPont. And at that time, there was an atlas that was before AstraZeneca had made

00:46:10.990 - 00:46:22.800

this commitment that they would train these people and then provide these environments for them to come into work and so forth.

00:46:22.800 - 00:46:32.680

We gave up several of our best technicians who actually went into classroom situations to do the instructional part.

00:46:32.680 - 00:46:46.650

As a black woman and cameras. My lab, because I banished a lab that consisted of about six or seven technicians.

00:46:46.650 - 00:46:55.870

My lab was used as the transitional. Those people would come from the wealth. They will go through, the training and technical training

00:46:55.870 - 00:47:05.650

and the teaching and learning how to do this and so forth. Then they will come to me for that first six or seven months to learn how

00:47:05.650 - 00:47:17.080

to do how to get up in the morning. How, you know, I mean, You mean to I'm talking about just plain old. Get yourself o'clock.

00:47:17.080 - 00:47:26.110

Okay. So you your baby is sick, you know, you need to make arrangements that night before. Just not come to work

00:47:26.110 - 00:47:35.810

at just stuff that we took. The working environment would take. So that was my role. And I had a young lady

00:47:35.810 - 00:47:47.250

asked Harmony on the night. He couldn't remember her name. Was holds, true. No hoaxes the case.

00:47:47.250 - 00:47:56.770

But anyway, we will run in an experimental, something strange one. So we have to work all the time.

00:47:56.770 - 00:48:07.360

She lived on the west side and I took her home. And I'm sure this was just one of them, probably many times,

00:48:07.360 - 00:48:17.950

but I remember having to navigate and then countering that whole curfew because it would've looked like

00:48:17.950 - 00:48:25.650

and feel like down there. National Guard people walking around with guns and stuff, right? Yeah. In uniform.

00:48:25.650 - 00:48:35.890

Uniform rather than right. Go Washington DC area. But yesterday yesterday Unite the Right, Right?

00:48:35.890 - 00:48:44.860

Yeah. That's the way we all went to the loop. What was the anxiety, what was the social anxiety like? What was it about?

00:48:45.470 - 00:49:02.630

I think anger folks in their jobs and they killed Dr. King and all he did was speak of peace. They kill them. So they would kill Dr. King.

00:49:02.630 - 00:49:18.510

They would probably kill anybody. Does lead to the same unrest at the Los Angeles riots, the frustration. But what was unique was

00:49:18.510 - 00:49:29.580

that here we are in Wilmington. Mostly small area. And the governor correct. Sent in iceberg,

00:49:29.580 - 00:49:41.260

requested support for the National Guard. Why do you think and you said that you don t think that it was necessary. But why do you think he did?

00:49:41.260 - 00:49:51.340

What kind of anxiety was Apple and at that level that caused them want to do that. Maybe I should rephrase that. I'm not going to say it wasn't necessary.

00:49:51.340 - 00:49:57.240

Okay. Well, not necessarily. It was for them to stay as long as they stayed.

00:49:57.240 - 00:50:09.570

Yeah. There may have been a need early on just to get things control. But once they got under control, they just stay.

00:50:09.570 - 00:50:20.500

There was a 10-minute data's humiliating and it was limited in what you could do. When you went to choir where he

00:50:20.500 - 00:50:36.330

got off the town apparently. But there were a few fires, that window's broken, looting of grocery stores.

00:50:36.330 - 00:50:46.880

But the downtown business district, I don't recall that there was any looting going on here. I don't remember anybody breaking,

00:50:46.920 - 00:50:59.230

showcase windows and so forth. It Mullen, John a. Carlson's or bronze things or it was more in the neighborhood.

00:50:59.230 - 00:51:10.660

So those who suffered most were, those were the neighborhoods not the y predicted would call the downtown business district.

00:51:10.660 - 00:51:21.550

The Lord. How long are they over here? Over here, almost a year. With Russell Peters that became the governor.

00:51:21.550 - 00:51:29.110

One of his first acts was to remove the guard from the streets and fatty brand on that platform, I'm going to ask you that

00:51:29.110 - 00:51:42.960

contribute to him winning. Spare positive, that it had a big factor in his victory. But just again, I'm just throwing

00:51:42.960 - 00:51:58.780

these memories are coming back to me on a Friday. That way. When Governor Terry Governor Terry wanted to set up a liaison between

00:51:58.780 - 00:52:19.200

his office and the black community, and he had a office then on Scott street, all from Pennsylvania Avenue. I met with Governor Terry to make the case.

00:52:19.200 - 00:52:29.870

You really need to have a link with the black community. Somebody who you have appointed, someone who has your ear.

00:52:29.870 - 00:52:40.870

And he is the who are you interested in? No, I'm not interested. I said but I think I know the person who could do that job.

00:52:40.870 - 00:52:55.150

And they said Who? I said Jim Baker. And I recommend it Jim for this position and the governor hired. And so that's part of the puzzle,

00:52:55.150 - 00:53:10.140

the fabric that makes up the whole Victor. He became the Governor's Special assistant for community affairs or something like that. I can't remember the title.

00:53:10.140 - 00:53:23.540

I don't know if I didn't realize this until this day. The job he got in part because I recommended him.

00:53:23.540 - 00:53:37.120

The sound immodest. Supported him. Absolutely. So 68. Is there anything else you

00:53:37.120 - 00:53:47.140

want to talk about? Anything else that jumps out to you as we, as we come to a close. Those who want to share any other well,

00:53:47.140 - 00:53:59.290

these this doesn't fit at all. Maybe it does. Okay. As Claire said, we

00:53:59.290 - 00:54:13.150

both attended graduate school here, Claire taking courses in chemistry, but I still don't understand. I was in the Department of Urban Affairs,

00:54:13.150 - 00:54:28.990

Public Policy. And the university was not the most liberal place for students. Even in the seventies,

00:54:28.990 - 00:54:44.870

wall matched or Louis read and wrote the cases that resulted in their integrated. I have a 23 distinct memories. I'll throw it out there

00:54:44.870 - 00:54:57.280

even though it doesn't quite fit, but it's sort of a residual of this whole racial animosity thing that led to riots and so forth.

00:54:57.280 - 00:55:08.620

Back in that time you were supposed to take the graduate record exam? I always considered the Graduate Record Exam as

00:55:08.620 - 00:55:20.630

a predictor of whether or not you had what it took to matriculate? At the graduate level? I had been in.

00:55:20.630 - 00:55:34.510

I've been a student for two years and getting excellent grades when they discovered that I had not taken the graduate record exam.

00:55:34.510 - 00:55:45.370

So I said, Well, I've been here two years. Why do I have to take an exam to prove my capabilities in terms of

00:55:45.370 - 00:55:54.700

matriculated and you just have to do it. That's it. Well, suppose I don't do what what do you do? Kicked me out.

00:55:54.700 - 00:56:04.800

I said Why would not be Indicator be my record rather than having today, they forced me to take the test. I couldn't help but feel that

00:56:04.800 - 00:56:21.220

maybe part of it racially inspired. You feel that the tuple cores in the Political Science Department. I won't name the professor

00:56:21.220 - 00:56:33.010

that I had to write a paper for the course. She said it was the best Haber any student had ever written in terms of

00:56:33.010 - 00:56:49.810

her her students in her class. So I said she gave me a B plus. And I said, well, if it's the best paper has ever been written,

00:56:49.810 - 00:57:03.910

why did you only graded could be a political science major to bear that you had gotten an a or an a minus would have been very,

00:57:03.910 - 00:57:15.790

very upset about a non-major getting a higher. When she said that she wouldn't change it even though it was the best paper.

00:57:15.790 - 00:57:30.000

And the last example was in the College of Urban Affairs. We had a take-home final. And one of my closest friends was very,

00:57:30.000 - 00:57:40.700

very excellent student may Canaan, quantitative analysis. Well, when it came to qualitative analysis and policy,

00:57:40.700 - 00:57:54.440

it was very difficult for her. And I recall only particular question she just was having all kinds of problems understanding.

00:57:54.440 - 00:58:08.390

So I guess they can't take back my degree if I say this shoulder, my answer to the question, here's what happened.

00:58:08.390 - 00:58:22.910

After the exam was graded. I spoke to her and I guess what I got an a I got NA Well, I got to be. So when I went to the professor,

00:58:22.910 - 00:58:36.160

why do only give me the B? She said, Well, your paper was very, very similar to the paper of the whites do it.

00:58:36.160 - 00:58:48.640

So it became obvious to me. You must copy the ways that I could say wouldn't say hold it wasn't that way,

00:58:48.640 - 00:58:58.930

it was the other way around. But it's the kind of additive. When I wrote my dissertation, I'll say his name in

00:58:58.930 - 00:59:14.830

the graduate dean was a Marie Dean Murray. And my advisor had approved my dissertation. And it went up to Mary. And Mary turned it down because he thought it

00:59:14.830 - 00:59:34.790

wasn't a robust enough quantitative. And the fact that the professor was not adhering to the proper Graduate Standards for

00:59:34.790 - 00:59:44.030

doctoral dissertations. And he turned it down even though it is approved by my department,

00:59:44.030 - 00:59:53.910

don't have good memories about some of these experiences. So this was the uterus. This would have been in there.

00:59:53.910 - 01:00:06.480

When do we do it? A couple of Europe would have been in Africa. Mid-seventies. Not related at all to the shooting.

01:00:06.480 - 01:00:18.820

But I just wanted to throw that out there. But that was a prevalent attitude. As I think I've mentioned to you, I was scratching would

01:00:18.820 - 01:00:35.320

advise, Well, first of all, by serving as found the chapter and that was founder Alpha, Kappa Alpha Lambda Gamma Chapter 74.

01:00:35.320 - 01:00:48.790

71 of the reasons we were so focused and worked so hard to get the group established here. It's because I would

01:00:48.790 - 01:01:03.580

hear the pain and hurt them. African-american students were experiencing. And I didn't have so many memories right

01:01:03.580 - 01:01:09.910

across the street or that black culture. So we will sit there than harm and knows this because I would come home at two or

01:01:09.910 - 01:01:16.900

03:00 in the morning coming back from university or wherever would have been sitting with somebody writing a term paper,

01:01:16.900 - 01:01:24.930

letting them cry it out, holding them in my arms, just do whatever it took to get those those children

01:01:24.930 - 01:01:36.530

because they felt tremendous racism here. And we went through all kinds of hoops and loops and so forth to get that chapter established,

01:01:36.530 - 01:01:47.620

I asked her about this dean Kline. I can't ban client. I can't remember. But I remember it was Dean dean slide, slide, slide,

01:01:47.620 - 01:02:02.560

who we worked with a cell wall because the requirements were just things that we couldn't we cannot adhere to. We couldn't afford to buy a house and we have

01:02:02.560 - 01:02:15.910

your own house and just all those kinds of things that we will have to work. But I recall then the tremendous amount

01:02:15.910 - 01:02:23.680

of racism that these young women. I think that was the one reason I just stuck with the harvest. And why are you with those,

01:02:23.680 - 01:02:33.650

Carol so much? That's it. I have to be there. They you know, they need somewhere. I don't know how it is now.

01:02:33.650 - 01:02:45.760

I don't know the environment, but it was very difficult for them. Academically. What year did you end up getting the charter?

01:02:45.760 - 01:02:57.280

We got the Charter 74. I want to thank somebody for the first African-American. Delta had gotten a job

01:02:57.280 - 01:03:04.090

and I have been I think but they're almost almost the same time. Around the same time? Yeah.

01:03:04.090 - 01:03:12.230

Just for the archive. You and who else Who are you working with to keep the chapter here?

01:03:12.230 - 01:03:24.220

Well, the other key person was Doris. Doris was facile us about what does this mean? President of the Graduate

01:03:24.220 - 01:03:35.380

tapped in enrollment. That was the sponsor, a chapter, and it was Doris. And I hope that was

01:03:35.380 - 01:03:46.070

because I had served in the same capacity that in the chapter at Westchester. And then it moved from there to here.

01:03:46.070 - 01:04:03.330

And grade there was an issue because alpha that alpha hat a high-grade point. So you need that 15 barrels.

01:04:03.330 - 01:04:17.780

So we were able to get that many adequate. So it was almost as if like a response to some of the climate in the 1960s, the late 60s, you know, do the writing.

01:04:17.780 - 01:04:25.800

And then in the seventies we have this frustration of these black students on campus and still be creating a context for,

01:04:25.800 - 01:04:36.740

create a really important chapter about what kind of alpha here. Anything you want to comment that arose in maybe the seventies?

01:04:36.740 - 01:04:48.520

Just spraying bug memorize. My dissertation. Had to do with the role of the media and either facilitating

01:04:48.520 - 01:04:59.750

or negating the ability of blood liters to ascend to leadership positions like organizations to be effective.

01:04:59.750 - 01:05:12.970

And it was based on a series of interviews with leaders and political elected officials. And the result was that the media

01:05:12.970 - 01:05:30.950

really picked certain people whom they were sacred. Cow could do no wrong. And they also had people who

01:05:30.950 - 01:05:43.960

were alcohol or sacrificial lamb, so they couldn't do any, right. Usually broke on those who were very active and aggressive advocates

01:05:43.960 - 01:05:54.300

for change in the community. They got all bad breath. And those who were gone along with the status quo guy, good Press.

01:05:54.300 - 01:06:04.280

And I couldn't help but wonder if part of the problem and getting my dissertation approved at the graduate level was because I came out,

01:06:04.280 - 01:06:15.250

I drew the wrong conclusions because my advisor, highly respected professor here, said, Well, harm and you've done fine.

01:06:15.250 - 01:06:23.600

There might be some minor edits that you want to make. And then when he told me what happened, I said, wow.

01:06:23.600 - 01:06:38.600

And as a consequence, Listen to this. A very high ranking black professor said he wanted to meet with me. I said, Okay, and I met with him.

01:06:38.600 - 01:06:53.140

And he said, I think the university wants to offer you a master's degree. I just think that it's okay.

01:06:53.140 - 01:07:07.940

Remember all that he said. I said, well, I have two master's degrees. Why do I need a master's degree? It's something you need to think about.

01:07:07.940 - 01:07:18.840

I didn't know university politics, like I think I know it now. I mean, that was sort of like a take it or leave it offer.

01:07:18.840 - 01:07:28.660

I didn't understand that. I wanted to complete the doctoral dissertation. That was the middle you

01:07:28.660 - 01:07:45.100

hear during during that time? Well, no. I brought a group of students from shavers about a year-and-a-half ago before I've been outlined here,

01:07:45.100 - 01:07:59.840

would have been just before I left. And we were hosted by students. And I heard the same thing that I had reported by 50 years ago.

01:08:02.280 - 01:08:12.520

Well, it's not a very hopeful conclusion that professor, that you are talking about C and asked me if I

01:08:12.520 - 01:08:21.230

knew our time limit here too.