00:00:00.800 - 00:00:15.350

So this is the date. Male 11, 2018? Yes. And we are in the One Button Studio in

00:00:15.350 - 00:00:24.540

New York, Delaware, Morris library. This is Rebecca Johnson, Melvin, and John Caldwell. And we're talking with

00:00:24.540 - 00:00:37.530

Ken, our equations today. And Ken, Would you tell us who you are and where you were in 1968? Well, in 1968, I

00:00:37.530 - 00:00:46.610

was a student here at the University of Delaware. I'm trying to re uh, Brighton, I think I declared my major by then.

00:00:46.610 - 00:00:55.330

Yes, I certainly had I was an art major because I started out as so undeclared, but I was an art major and undergraduate.

00:00:55.330 - 00:01:08.590

And that's pretty much what I was doing in 1968. I lived in New York and you know, I remember the elections in 68.

00:01:08.590 - 00:01:18.350

And I remember where I live then, which was down on Main Street in the house that song big demolished. About halfway between McDonald's

00:01:18.350 - 00:01:25.570

or the shopping center, or if you will. But that was when that was during the elections, which November,

00:01:25.570 - 00:01:33.350

but earlier in the summer, I may have live someplace else because I was trying to count it out when I came. I think I lived in eight different locations

00:01:33.350 - 00:01:42.290

when I was in undergrad here, I sort of proved to wrap. All right. So what kind of

00:01:42.290 - 00:01:51.440

activities were you involved with as a student here? Not much, just surviving. I worked my way through college.

00:01:51.440 - 00:01:58.700

I for the most part, I usually had I'm a part-time job or even the almost the equivalent

00:01:58.700 - 00:02:06.770

of a full-time job. I remember I worked the graveyard shifts for edit DuPont plant up in

00:02:06.770 - 00:02:14.900

Newport and I was so broke. I didn't have a car side road bike bike up there and back again, and that was pretty visible at midnight

00:02:14.900 - 00:02:25.280

on the curve would highway on a bicycle. So I didn't have a lot of time for I wasn't in the band or anything like that. It was a struggle for me really just to make

00:02:25.280 - 00:02:34.400

enough money to pay my rent and food and tuition and all that sort of thing. I didn't get some student loans at a time and, you know, the sort of laughable,

00:02:34.400 - 00:02:46.470

I think my first semester Here, I like tuition was something like $150 a semester. And so compared to today's prices,

00:02:46.470 - 00:02:57.530

it's probably nothing but still, you know, I I pretty much paid cash and work my way through. So I guess let's see, 68.

00:02:57.530 - 00:03:06.770

I would have been 21, 22 years old? Yeah. Yeah. So I was 22. So I guess my main hobby was probably

00:03:06.770 - 00:03:18.830

drinking beer at the Deer Park Hotel when I could afford it. So what were the mandatory requirements for students when you were in school?

00:03:18.830 - 00:03:26.510

What year did you come into the movie? Do you remember? Yeah. I graduated from high school in 64. But I didn't start here until

00:03:26.510 - 00:03:38.680

60 66 or early 66, I guess. Because I had gone to another school briefly for a semester, didn't like it. And so I got here in a roundabout way.

00:03:38.680 - 00:03:47.560

But it was I took I was undeclared originally. It was a the requirements were, as I recall, just

00:03:47.560 - 00:03:54.560

the standard liberal liberal arts requirements. The one that really was difficult for me was a foreign language requirement,

00:03:54.560 - 00:04:01.880

which I just took it over. I plugged in over and over, I tried to German and I tried fringe. I struggled with

00:04:01.880 - 00:04:10.780

my foreign language requirement. I remember there was also a one semester Delaware history requirement that Dr. Monroe taught.

00:04:10.780 - 00:04:23.240

Who did I really enjoyed. There was also a mandatory ROTC requirement at that time, which gave me some difficulty in one sense,

00:04:23.240 - 00:04:29.780

I mean, not that I mind it so much, but it's probably needs to what you want to talk about them with anything else?

00:04:29.780 - 00:04:44.120

I was a national guardsman. I came here in I think it was 65 or I flunked out them after about a year and courses, draft age.

00:04:44.120 - 00:04:53.430

So I joined the National Guard. I was fortunate enough to get into the Delaware Air National Guard. And so I got back from basic training.

00:04:53.430 - 00:05:01.780

I was already in the Delaware Air National Guard and the university insisted that I take ROTC, so I'm going to lie.

00:05:01.780 - 00:05:07.970

I'm already in I'm already a member of the military. Does seem like a waste of time. I didn't much care for it.

00:05:07.970 - 00:05:19.490

I didn't like it. It seemed pretty rinky dink to me. So remind me. Do you recall the date of grotty walk off?

00:05:19.490 - 00:05:27.050

Because I'm not sure if that was 68 or some other years and it was definitely it was 68. And it would be very

00:05:27.050 - 00:05:33.950

interesting to hear your reminisced. Okay. So like what was that all about? Yeah. Well, there were a lot of

00:05:33.950 - 00:05:43.310

people who agreed with me that ROTC was being mandatory was not a good idea for all kinds of reasons. In my case, it was it had to do

00:05:43.310 - 00:05:52.100

with I was already a member of the military, but other people will just thought there was no place for military on campus, or are they objected to the war in

00:05:52.100 - 00:06:03.290

Vietnam or a myriad of other reasons. And so I remember going to a meeting, I believe it was by the SDS, people like racy and George wall kind.

00:06:03.290 - 00:06:14.870

And they hatched a plan to, there would be a, I think there was a parade periodically where everybody gets all dressed up and we all go out

00:06:14.870 - 00:06:24.440

on the parade field and the field in this case, by the way, it was, I think about where the Amy DuPont center is now.

00:06:24.440 - 00:06:36.530

There was a field there at that time. And so the plan was for students, ROTC students on moss to March off. And I think he was really only a handful

00:06:36.530 - 00:06:46.890

of people who actually did it. And my small role was, at the time, I had had a hip, a Volkswagen bus, and it was all painted up.

00:06:46.890 - 00:06:53.750

I was an art major and said flower power on the side and all that sort of thing. And so my job was to

00:06:53.750 - 00:06:59.900

I for whatever reason I wasn't in the parade that particular day. So I drove by and I treated the morning. That was supposed to be the

00:06:59.900 - 00:07:10.130

signal for the walk off, and that's my little minor role in all this. And I remember the New York Post reported it and it said Volkswagen bus

00:07:10.130 - 00:07:16.260

sped away or something. I was not speeding. I wasn't in fact, I was really trying to be very deliberate.

00:07:16.260 - 00:07:27.710

But anyway, that was my minor role in that middle desktop on campus. And when people didn't

00:07:27.710 - 00:07:35.360

walk off, what happened? Only a few people walked off. They'll only a few looked down on. I don t think it was I

00:07:35.360 - 00:07:43.850

don't recall a walk on, but I think there was some kind of disciplinary action against those who the handful that

00:07:43.850 - 00:07:50.870

did walk off and it might have been eight or ten or 12 people, something like that towards the wall behind can probably tell you more.

00:07:50.870 - 00:08:02.800

But it was kind of a failure in terms of we had envisioned scores of people leaving the deal. It really didn't work out that way.

00:08:02.800 - 00:08:11.400

But nevertheless, in the end it worked. I mean, in the sense that university did drop the requirement eventually.

00:08:11.400 - 00:08:20.390

And I'm not sure what that was. I'm sorry, a year or two later, but so but it got a lot of visibility. So I think that was probably that

00:08:20.390 - 00:08:28.910

the other part of that equation. So were you just friends? You weren't a member of SDS? Yeah. I was just friends. I was not a member.

00:08:28.910 - 00:08:40.030

You know, as I say, I was logged out. I was gonna be drafted. I had friends who went to Canada.

00:08:40.030 - 00:08:48.860

I had friends who did various and sundry things, basically got drafted, went to Vietnam. I was fortunate.

00:08:48.860 - 00:08:56.660

There was a waiting list in the Air National Guard, but, you know, I gave it a try and I was lucky enough to get

00:08:56.660 - 00:09:04.040

to the test and so on. And they had four openings and I was one of the four people who were selected. I remember I took

00:09:04.040 - 00:09:12.050

the series of tests and I scored very well in general and administrative and okay. In electrical than the fourth one was that mechanical?

00:09:12.050 - 00:09:18.770

That was my worst score. It was 60. But my recruiter said, well, we have four openings.

00:09:18.770 - 00:09:28.290

Engine mechanic, engine mechanic, engine mechanic and engine mechanic. And I said, I wanna be an engine mechanics. And to me that was

00:09:28.290 - 00:09:35.810

an honorable way of fulfilling my duty and doing my, you know, my, my duty as a citizen to serve

00:09:35.810 - 00:09:43.850

my country and so on, but done. But certainly to avoid Vietnam. I mean, I didn't want to go to Vietnam and I didn't want to shoot anybody.

00:09:43.850 - 00:09:53.750

And so it was a nice compromise for me. It worked out fine. So I was sympathetic with those who were opposed to the war.

00:09:53.750 - 00:10:00.970

I mean, I had been to some of the teachings and learned a little bit about, To me it was a war of independence.

00:10:00.970 - 00:10:10.130

It was that we didn't have any business being there. But that was the policy of the day and you know,

00:10:10.130 - 00:10:19.430

But on the other hand, I wasn't overly active about it. I did go to a couple of marches in Washington with friends with Tom Daniel's.

00:10:19.430 - 00:10:27.530

I mean, remember, mean, we had a big crew. We'll piled into somebody's van or a car and we went to Washington. I did that a couple of

00:10:27.530 - 00:10:39.080

times and marched on Washington. I remember one time he was just so bitter cold. Do you think that was that in 68

00:10:39.080 - 00:10:49.560

or I don't I don't really remember at this point, but so what was it? Blank and Washington, what did you see?

00:10:49.560 - 00:10:58.070

Oh, go on the ball or yeah, lots of hundreds of thousands of people in science. We I remember when we drove to

00:10:58.070 - 00:11:10.430

College Park to pick up some more people, get on the bus or something like that. I can get it to go into town. And as I recall, but, you know,

00:11:10.430 - 00:11:18.530

it was just a kind of a In any event, I don't know how to put it. There were speeches but identify hurting them, you know,

00:11:18.530 - 00:11:26.340

it's mostly just milling around with thousands of other people. And so wondering if you could tell us more about

00:11:26.340 - 00:11:33.700

what it teaching was like. And also heard about the Phoenix House. Did you go to the feedings house and could you tell us what that was?

00:11:33.700 - 00:11:40.670

Actually at one point and I was trying to remember when I lived in the Phoenix House, when I when I first went to school at Bob Andrews,

00:11:40.670 - 00:11:51.840

who was the Presbyterian campus ministry, I guess I'm not sure the precise title. Had the Phoenix coffeehouse, which was open on Friday and Saturday nights.

00:11:51.840 - 00:12:02.650

They served mold, cider and coffee. One thing and they had various sec croissants and food, and they had folk music and poetry readings.

00:12:02.650 - 00:12:12.690

And it was down to the basement at 20 Orchard Road. And I lived upstairs in a single room next to a guy named Tom Daniel's live there.

00:12:12.690 - 00:12:20.750

And, you know, one or two other people kinda came and went. And I was employed there as the manager of the coffee house.

00:12:20.750 - 00:12:28.850

I was the manager for a period of time and so I had to go by the donuts and coffee supplies and all that sort of thing.

00:12:28.850 - 00:12:40.550

And I think my rent there was like $20 a month for a little room with a bed. I mean, it wasn't much. And it was a fun place to be.

00:12:40.550 - 00:12:50.240

There. There. It attracted some students. It also attracted a lot of faculty. And even some local LAN

00:12:50.240 - 00:12:56.540

or no DuPont engineers and those kinds of folks enlightened people from New Arc, educated people who would

00:12:56.540 - 00:13:05.880

come to listen to the poetry, drink the mold sire, and what have you been done? It was a lot of time upstairs.

00:13:05.880 - 00:13:12.590

There was a meeting room and I believe that is where the SDS often had teachings and meanings and that kind

00:13:12.590 - 00:13:21.740

of thing made guest speakers recall. I really don't remember a lot of specifics from that period of time. Isn't that where they've worked on

00:13:21.740 - 00:13:29.110

the heterodox equal voice or was that work done elsewhere? I wasn't involved in the heterodox single voice.

00:13:29.110 - 00:13:35.620

I mean, I remember the paper and in all likelihood it might have been, I think, you know, because it was certainly

00:13:35.620 - 00:13:44.570

a hot house for leftist causes, alternating free thinking and that kind of thing, which did attract me.

00:13:44.570 - 00:13:57.260

I mean, you know, I was at that time, I know I like to take care of as a critical thinker. And so were their teachings,

00:13:57.260 - 00:14:05.100

there are the teachings are you referring to? Were they on campus? There may have been teaching campus, but the one the ones I recall we're

00:14:05.100 - 00:14:17.690

at at the Phoenix. You remember anything that you were reading at the time or their authors

00:14:17.690 - 00:14:31.740

or just things that might have been discussed. I really can't really call it anything specific.

00:14:31.740 - 00:14:41.330

I mean, I've been here all my life. But if there's a single book or document that kinda changed my direction with me,

00:14:41.330 - 00:14:58.220

I can't point to one that comes to mind. Yeah, I'm afraid I so what can you tell us about April 4th after

00:14:58.220 - 00:15:10.300

Martin Luther King's assassination would happen to the Delaware National Guard? Well, as I say, I was a guardsman and I joined the Air Guard,

00:15:10.300 - 00:15:16.940

especially because as opposed to the army, I didn't want to wear a helmet and I didn't want to carry a gun and, you know, and all that sort of thing.

00:15:16.940 - 00:15:30.410

I'm an airplane mechanic. But we were issued all this stuff. A helmet and a weapon, all the accouterments, canteen

00:15:30.410 - 00:15:40.130

and a web belt, all that business. And we were called I guess I was called by my sergeant or something

00:15:40.130 - 00:15:46.070

on the phone and said, Get out here to the airbase because we've been called up. And so I went out to

00:15:46.070 - 00:15:55.540

the airbase in Wilmington, Newport at New Castle and we got on trucks and we went into town on

00:15:55.540 - 00:16:09.050

the at that time it was fairly new, the I95. And I certainly remember driving into the city and seeing the city in flames. Big pillars of smoke coming from the city.

00:16:09.050 - 00:16:19.940

Remember where exactly, but they took us into the old Wilmington armory, which I think is that 12th and DuPont. If I have the address right

00:16:19.940 - 00:16:31.280

somewhere around that area or you're in you're saying that nice little Italy. And so we assembled there in the yard of the Wilmington armory,

00:16:31.280 - 00:16:38.250

which at that time It's a pretty big complex. It was a big old building and it also had a defense Dan compound with a couple of other things.

00:16:38.250 - 00:16:49.280

There was an indoor pistol range and some other auxiliary buildings their way where there were hundreds of us, both most of the Army and

00:16:49.280 - 00:16:56.960

Air National Guardsmen just been we've been deposited and we're sort of milling around, waiting to be told what to do.

00:16:56.960 - 00:17:05.000

And the way it worked out was a somebody would come along periodically and say, I need 12 people.

00:17:05.000 - 00:17:14.210

You you, you you would come with me. And mostly they are what they did was they formed a little squad to go guard a firehouse or

00:17:14.210 - 00:17:22.970

a power station or some other critical infrastructure in Wilmington. I remember near downtown.

00:17:22.970 - 00:17:30.260

There was an AT&T building, not a very big building, but end this goofy looking thing on this, on the roof.

00:17:30.260 - 00:17:37.070

But it turns out that that was some kind of key connector for the East Coast communications or something.

00:17:37.070 - 00:17:44.330

And so it doesn't look like much but we had to garden. And so it sort of went like that. And so ten or 12 or 15 people at

00:17:44.330 - 00:17:49.940

a time began to take off and the crowd is beginning to dwindle. And I'm hanging out with

00:17:49.940 - 00:17:57.650

my friend Tom Naylor, who is also a mechanic and we're sort of lurking in the shadows trying to avoid.

00:17:57.650 - 00:18:03.080

I don't know what we're trying to avoid because we're doomed to get something sooner or later anyway.

00:18:03.080 - 00:18:11.990

A couple of captains came up and said, we need we need two people. So I looked at Tommy and Tommy looked at me and he said, okay, will volunteer.

00:18:11.990 - 00:18:20.300

So we volunteered and these two captains were driving a station wagon and we were Tommy and I were both

00:18:20.300 - 00:18:29.630

employed to as shot gun. We were the we carried the guns while the two captains drove the station wagon. The purpose was to get food from

00:18:29.630 - 00:18:36.980

the armory and then take it out to these remote locations. Where are our soldiers were located? Guardian these various facilities.

00:18:36.980 - 00:18:43.310

So it turned out to be kind of interesting and pretty good because I got to drive all over the city and see where everybody

00:18:43.310 - 00:18:50.990

was and what they were doing. And so I was fairly mobile. I wasn't stuck in one place. And so it was

00:18:50.990 - 00:19:03.670

pretty good duty in that regard. That that's essentially what I did for at least a few days. We spent our afternoons

00:19:03.670 - 00:19:11.390

in the armory training. Once again, I didn't want to know how to take apart a weapon and put it back together and clean it.

00:19:11.390 - 00:19:21.200

But that's what I was being trained to do. And the armory was a big buildings sort of like a gymnasium. There were bugs at

00:19:21.200 - 00:19:29.630

double bunk beds lined up side-by-side and endless rows and you've got a bulk and that's where you slept.

00:19:29.630 - 00:19:42.950

And we weren't allowed out of there. We were stuck inside the armory. We in one of the buildings, they set up a little canteen

00:19:42.950 - 00:19:50.330

where you can buy a beer and cigarettes and shaving cream and that kind of thing. And so that's that's all

00:19:50.330 - 00:20:02.070

it was to do was to, you know, they have a few tables, so after hours we drink a few beers and hang out. I remember because it was in Little Italy.

00:20:02.070 - 00:20:09.140

There was a lot of bravado talk about those folks are not coming over here because, you know, Little Italy

00:20:09.140 - 00:20:19.650

and we'll take care of them. I mean, the Italian community was very really bristle at the thought that any

00:20:19.650 - 00:20:28.880

of that riots in their direction and they wouldn't be sure to take care of it. We, you know, one in ten.

00:20:28.880 - 00:20:37.880

I'm not sure why she didn't say this, but I will anyway, that's what the heck. We had a little break area where we had beer, as I said.

00:20:37.880 - 00:20:49.980

And so after the second or third night there, somebody came across some stack, some black and white grainy stag films from the 1930s, I think.

00:20:49.980 - 00:20:58.910

So we showed these little 15-minute wheels, a couple of them, and there was a lot of hooting and hollering or drinking beer

00:20:58.910 - 00:21:06.170

and having a grand old time. So these were, these films have been smuggled over the wall as it were from Little Italy.

00:21:06.170 - 00:21:15.080

They were such a success that the next night they brought in some more. And by the end of the week, we were getting the latest Swedish imports

00:21:15.080 - 00:21:20.930

in full color, pulled, full featured, and of course they started charging for these things, whoever was doing it.

00:21:20.930 - 00:21:29.630

So we watch these awful movies for a buck and a half or whatever it was for the fee. And so there was a sort of

00:21:29.630 - 00:21:39.260

a smuggling operation there in the middle, literally. Another sort of an incident that I recall was we patrolled in

00:21:39.260 - 00:21:49.590

the evenings and we were at right near Rodney square, the red light next to the hotel Du Pont and it's

00:21:49.590 - 00:21:56.570

ten or 11:00 at night and the light turns red. And so we do if we stop, even though there's not a lick of traffic

00:21:56.570 - 00:22:03.380

anywhere in the city because there's a curfew on. And we're sitting there at this red light and a car pulls up next to us and

00:22:03.380 - 00:22:10.990

it's station wagon or a car full of black people. So rifles go out the window is what

00:22:10.990 - 00:22:18.980

what are you doing out here? And it was a woman who was going into labor. So so we escorted her to the hospital

00:22:18.980 - 00:22:30.980

and that was the end of it. But, you know, it's just sort of unnecessary tension, if you will. So how old were

00:22:30.980 - 00:22:35.700

the guys that you were serving with at the same time? At the same time where they about your age or yeah.

00:22:35.700 - 00:22:44.710

Mostly. I mean, they would've ranged in age from as young as 18 to the National Guard when I was in it.

00:22:44.710 - 00:22:55.460

And I believe this is still true. It's actually because it's a reserve unit. People tend to stay for 20 years, 25 years. So it tends to, the demographic,

00:22:55.460 - 00:23:04.600

tends to be older than the active duty demographic. So my uncle my uncle Jake was in the dorm room with me.

00:23:04.600 - 00:23:10.120

My dad was in the Delaware air garden, so are two of my uncles and a couple of cousins. So that probably isn't

00:23:10.120 - 00:23:19.830

one of the reasons I got in. And so it was kinda fun to to take my place alongside my uncles and be

00:23:19.830 - 00:23:31.090

one of the elements, whatever you want, call it. And I stayed in the Wilmington armoury for, I believe, three or four weeks.

00:23:31.090 - 00:23:40.410

And then I was sent down to Dover and I spent another week or two down there and then the Dilbert armory and doing pretty much the same thing.

00:23:40.410 - 00:23:48.060

Clear to me what was going on in Dover are why we needed to be done there, but there was also a contingent downstate as well.

00:23:48.610 - 00:23:59.150

We did pretty much the same things we trained, cleaned our weapons. So what do you need training. Did you have for this type of

00:23:59.150 - 00:24:12.020

assignment before you went into Wilmington? Hardly any. And which is why, you know, we were given weapons. What kind of weapon?

00:24:12.020 - 00:24:22.700

I think there's an M1 carbene. And I remember a couple of years after the riots. Actually, one result of the riots

00:24:22.700 - 00:24:30.290

was every summer we got continuous riot control, the civil service training, and it was always the highest weekend of

00:24:30.290 - 00:24:42.560

the month of the year and you had to put on all this gear and we got much better at it and much smarter. I mean, I learned that you

00:24:42.560 - 00:24:50.780

don't use rifles or not. The tool unit is Ryan pitons and you have a face shield and body armor and those kinds of things,

00:24:50.780 - 00:25:01.470

but mostly meant for self-protection. But the only people that have a weapon would be, normally these days would be the police force

00:25:01.470 - 00:25:14.830

where we have the business carrying weapons situation. The other thing is, is we learned some things about the impulse might be,

00:25:14.830 - 00:25:22.640

There's a Riot Going On. The impulse might be to March down the street and get the rioters moved out of the air, which is a good idea,

00:25:22.640 - 00:25:27.770

but you wouldn't want to put them in a place where they can escape. Because when you've really got trouble on your hands,

00:25:27.770 - 00:25:36.420

you really want them to escape, to slip down the side streets and go away as the objective. And so I think we got a lot smarter

00:25:36.420 - 00:25:50.720

in the following years on how to do this, but on that during the actual ride itself, I don't think we had that kind of expertise. Sand we were and I say we I mean,

00:25:50.720 - 00:25:55.070

the leadership of the guards, not that they didn't know what they were doing, but they were kind of new at

00:25:55.070 - 00:26:02.810

this and they wasn't a problem. They had studied bunch. And so did you observe what you would call a

00:26:02.810 - 00:26:13.340

riot condition in Wilmington? And no, I didn't really by the time I got there and did what I was doing, the I believe the actual burning

00:26:13.340 - 00:26:24.080

and looting writing was fairly brief event. Mostly we were there acting as an army of occupation to make sure it didn't happen again or make sure

00:26:24.080 - 00:26:37.250

it didn't Verizon new. But no, I didn't see any breaking glass. I saw the fires taking the truck into town. There obviously had been, you know, arson.

00:26:37.250 - 00:26:46.580

But I didn't personally witness any any writing or looting or anything like that. Because you removed bile and

00:26:46.580 - 00:26:54.500

we're able to move around delivering the food. What did you see? Evidence of? The destruction or problems?

00:26:54.500 - 00:27:01.940

Yes, certain parts of the town had broken windows and I think even by then put a plywood and that sort of thing.

00:27:01.940 - 00:27:12.320

And there was evidence of a fire, but that's that's pretty much it. You know. It's not like there were pools of blood.

00:27:12.320 - 00:27:20.980

If you like that. Did you have an assignment to return after that initial several weeks that you were there

00:27:20.980 - 00:27:30.770

or we were finally released after I you know, I want to say something like five or six weeks. But then the there was still

00:27:30.770 - 00:27:40.460

a presence continued which basically would work patrols and I don t know when the the curfew was finding lifted,

00:27:40.460 - 00:27:48.150

but there were, you know, patrols, GPG patrols going through the city. There was a TV program at the time called RAT Patrol.

00:27:48.150 - 00:27:56.450

And that's they call it RAT Patrol. He's the guy in the unit. And it was that became a volunteer to be you

00:27:56.450 - 00:28:01.400

could if you wanted to earn a couple extra bucks, you can volunteer for RAT Patrol and go control the city after

00:28:01.400 - 00:28:10.310

your day job and worked for our shift or something and right downtown. And that went on, I believe,

00:28:10.310 - 00:28:19.820

all the way up until the elections that year or the inauguration of Governor Peterson. So that was the sort of the extended part,

00:28:19.820 - 00:28:26.630

but that was mostly about and I never volunteered for rapid trauma, you know, I had a job right. I didn't need the money.

00:28:26.630 - 00:28:43.710

I didn't I It's not something I wanted to do. So what did you feel in the guard and also in the city? About the situation?

00:28:43.710 - 00:28:55.430

Yeah. I would say at that time in that context, I did. There definitely was not a lot of sympathy for the riders or polluters

00:28:55.430 - 00:29:10.540

or their situation amongst the guardsman that high. That's that pretty much summarizes. And I don't think they were

00:29:10.540 - 00:29:20.790

necessarily hostile to them, but they, you know, if you you know, I think the attitude was a law and order.

00:29:20.790 - 00:29:30.270

I mean, I believe Nixon use that term when he ran for president debt in 68. He was the law and order candidate.

00:29:30.270 - 00:29:39.080

And he was commenting, I believe, on these situations, not just moving all across the country. And, you know, if you

00:29:39.080 - 00:29:54.720

broke the law, you know, well, you broke the law and you should face the consequences. Hi, email you if you.

00:29:54.940 - 00:30:07.040

I don't remember any intellectual discussions about the, about Martin Luther King and all the good he had done or anything like that.

00:30:07.040 - 00:30:16.940

This is strictly a local matter. We're going to take care of it. And I don't mean to pick on Little Italy. That's that just happens

00:30:16.940 - 00:30:26.980

to be the neighborhood I was in, but I'm sure that in brown town, Polish part of town or some of the other parts of Wilmington?

00:30:26.980 - 00:30:36.870

I'm sure it was pretty much the same attitude. Hold on. I can't say that I spoke to a lot of simply maintain at that time.

00:30:36.870 - 00:30:47.120

But the guardsman themselves came from those neighborhoods. They came from community and down. So I think they were

00:30:47.120 - 00:31:02.160

probably a pretty accurate reflection of that community. So the various friends that you had on Canvas when you're off duty back to normal?

00:31:02.440 - 00:31:12.500

Where the conversations with his friend Sure. I guess from my perspective is was something like he's already been living in an armory for

00:31:12.500 - 00:31:20.290

five or six weeks. I'm glad that's over. It's going to be Home's gonna be back in school. And that was kinda

00:31:20.290 - 00:31:27.610

my end up whatever conversation took place. I think, yes, something some friends and so on would probably curious.

00:31:27.610 - 00:31:37.570

I see. And I don't take it even despite the fact that I was mobile, I don't really feel like I saw that lunch.

00:31:37.570 - 00:31:43.550

I mean, you know, drive to a street corner and there's a fire station, there's a couple of soldiers lollygagging around in front,

00:31:43.550 - 00:31:54.530

and here's your dinner. Move on to the next one. And so when you came back to New, Are you reading

00:31:54.530 - 00:32:04.890

the heterodoxy goal voice and how they covered the Wilmington occupation? I remember reading the heterodoxy heterodoxy called voice.

00:32:05.020 - 00:32:20.390

But I guess I'd have to say my memory of that publication was I wasn't I found it to be turgid. There was it was dense and full

00:32:20.390 - 00:32:35.810

of what's the word I'm looking for. I don't know doctrine. I sympathize, but really not that committed was,

00:32:35.810 - 00:32:45.160

I guess it's probably my attitude at the time, I think. So. Yeah, I didn't read it at night night. I got the gist of the idea, you know, what,

00:32:45.160 - 00:32:55.880

things they were forward against, but I wasn't every word was. Enraptured be. So what were the changes you saw on

00:32:55.880 - 00:33:06.830

Canvas in that year? And just in terms of what the students were advocating for e.g. rod. C, or well,

00:33:06.830 - 00:33:13.160

there were other things that, you know, of course. I'm a normal person. I I remember I did

00:33:13.160 - 00:33:22.550

my girlfriend lived in Smith Hall. You you know, the routine was you you rang the bell downstairs and you weren't

00:33:22.550 - 00:33:28.730

allowed in there and you can only just go to the front entrance and I don't know what week nights they had to be home

00:33:28.730 - 00:33:37.520

by ten and weekends, I can stay out until midnight or something. It was very, you know, very structured and very in

00:33:37.520 - 00:33:50.550

loco parentis was a phrase they used at that time. At university, was your parental substitute, I guess.

00:33:50.550 - 00:34:00.860

And so I think, you know, it wasn't long after I left university or I don't think it was during but they began to,

00:34:00.860 - 00:34:12.170

you know, I couldn't believe that they had actually co-ed dorms and they dropped all those requirements. You were expected to

00:34:12.170 - 00:34:26.350

be treated like an adult, I guess, given more liberties and so on. So all those things, I think for some kind of an offshoot of these times of turmoil,

00:34:26.350 - 00:34:45.260

part of part of the sort of daily life. Rotc requirement mandatory was dropped. But that kinda went in my language requirement.

00:34:45.260 - 00:34:51.350

And nevertheless, because I had matriculated one, I did stay until the end of my life and I could.

00:34:51.350 - 00:35:01.250

So I finally got over that, but I didn't graduate actually until 1992. I actually went down to the nearest and it took for damn semesters of

00:35:01.250 - 00:35:13.710

German and I just finally got through it and transfer the credits up here and they graduated me. It was misery.

00:35:13.710 - 00:35:19.600

The worst part about that is that anybody who had matriculated after me did not have that requirement.

00:35:19.600 - 00:35:28.130

And I had a I had a brother-in-law who I can't remember if he was in the same boat I was in and somehow or other II he switched

00:35:28.130 - 00:35:40.680

majors or something and worked his way around the requirement. But anyway, I've taken, I've taken seven or eight courses in German.

00:35:40.680 - 00:35:54.210

I could speak a little German. I can understand a little bit better. You know, I really have no use for it. So in your memory,

00:35:54.310 - 00:36:04.880

you see 1968 is a really important year for you. Well, yeah, it was it was pretty momentous year in

00:36:04.880 - 00:36:15.790

a general kind of way. I mean, that there would be a race riots. There was war and there was an election. Just all those big

00:36:15.790 - 00:36:34.310

forces that there was also, I took an art history course with Dr. Anna. And I remember there was also a student riots

00:36:34.310 - 00:36:43.190

in Paris at the time. And he made a comment, and he said that sort of stuck with me for some reason.

00:36:43.190 - 00:36:55.490

He said that the last time anything like this had happened was 17, 76. But there had been, there was, there was a sort of a worldwide,

00:36:55.490 - 00:37:04.260

you know, kind of a revolution. And he said what's really significant is that we're in one and we know it, we're aware of it.

00:37:04.660 - 00:37:13.310

There was that that was his sort of overview of the world at the time and it didn't did strike me as something that

00:37:13.310 - 00:37:23.210

was a keen observation. I'm not sure if it was necessarily absolutely as grand as he, you know, but at the time,

00:37:23.210 - 00:37:32.810

it really it seemed appropriate and it was an insightful for me. Well, what are the things that was reported in the review was

00:37:32.810 - 00:37:41.240

immediately after the assassination, there already was scheduled days of consciousness. Certainly teach in on

00:37:41.240 - 00:37:49.790

campus and you might have already been mobilized by the time that it was held. Remember? It's that I don't give me nothing.

00:37:49.790 - 00:37:57.080

Before you went to Wilmington? I don't I mean, Mr. didn't seem to be some self-awareness. Yeah. She's gone.

00:37:57.080 - 00:38:03.110

I'd have to check the dates, but, you know, no, The whenever they lit the fire is that's when I'm going into

00:38:03.110 - 00:38:11.550

down whatever that date was. It was April 4th or second day. I don't recall specifically. Yeah.

00:38:11.560 - 00:38:24.100

So the question was about the Tammy egg farm? Yes. Did you ever go visit there? Well, I grew up with a Tammy's. They were on my school bus route actually.

00:38:24.100 - 00:38:33.710

So my school bus went right by there. Second grade or something. I think I've known Leah, Tammy, who was in my class at my age.

00:38:33.710 - 00:38:44.850

Leo is a year younger and you're too young. But Leah, his sister, you know, I've known her since elementary school, I guess.

00:38:46.690 - 00:38:59.030

Yeah. I remember the egg farm. Sure. I think my mom whenever there to buy X from time to time. We lived that was

00:38:59.030 - 00:39:11.990

on Chapel Road and we lived on Sunset Lake Road which is an extension of self Chapel, kind of at the base of Iron hill.

00:39:11.990 - 00:39:22.270

So there are sort of on the other side of wire deal for us, if you will. And I mean, back then, how Road was a dirt road?

00:39:22.270 - 00:39:29.510

I think us chapel was a dirt road at that time. This was really a rural place. When I was a child.

00:39:29.510 - 00:39:38.360

The road scraper, it came through, you know, once once every couple of weeks and I was kind of a big event. I mean, I had an outhouse when I was

00:39:38.360 - 00:39:52.830

a child until August 12th. So everybody out in that part of the country knew everybody else. I mean, pretty much to people.

00:39:52.830 - 00:40:00.910

So you went to high school at newark high school? I began there in my I went there and 10th and 11th grade,

00:40:00.910 - 00:40:06.430

but in my senior year, they split the schools and created Christiana high. So I was in the first

00:40:06.430 - 00:40:18.910

graduating class at Christiana, which was a traumatic experience because, you know, they split our class. There's a great high-school dropout

00:40:18.910 - 00:40:25.390

or are they to you probably test. But there were two threads, Harvey folk and pq burger. They lived on West Chestnut

00:40:25.390 - 00:40:33.140

Hill Road and they were both wrestlers and they both wrestled in the same weight class. Harvey went to New Archive

00:40:33.140 - 00:40:41.870

and beat like to Christiana. And they were both undefeated that in the state championships. And I mean, it was

00:40:41.870 - 00:40:50.300

like the sporting event would be here because their best friends and Harvey one heart, Harvey was a gifted athlete.

00:40:50.300 - 00:40:56.210

But it was just, you know, it sort of symbolized from me, you know, all the trauma that

00:40:56.210 - 00:41:20.070

we had gone through and splitting our classes in high school or anything else. We do it. I mean well, yeah.

00:41:21.580 - 00:41:36.830

I think one question I had was, what was your awareness of racial issues on campus? You are Christiana had been integrated but

00:41:36.830 - 00:41:45.410

still largely white, right? Yeah. I I was sort of proud of the fact that my high school had been integrated,

00:41:45.410 - 00:41:51.980

although there were a handful of people and I knew some of them just to kind of say hello and I knew

00:41:51.980 - 00:41:59.270

their names that I knew where they lived, but I didn't hang out with them. I didn't know. I didn't really I don't think anybody did.

00:41:59.270 - 00:42:05.810

I I think, you know, that little handful of folks stayed to themselves and, you know, it just I mean,

00:42:05.810 - 00:42:12.020

I was I was glad to see that we were integrated. I mean, when I grew up, it was not uncommon

00:42:12.020 - 00:42:18.470

for my friends and family to use the n-word and just as you'd say, soda pop or any, I mean, it was just a common and

00:42:18.470 - 00:42:33.700

ordinary and not exceptional. And I sort of feel like I've spent a lot of my life moving away from that.

00:42:33.700 - 00:42:43.910

And some people have not moved away from it, even still, I think in college, it was kinda the same situation

00:42:43.910 - 00:42:54.320

we had blacks on campus, but I don't remember any, any interaction whatsoever between the two communities.

00:42:54.320 - 00:43:06.770

I mean, there must have been some, you know, But I I had Arab friends. I had sent me bandwagon, he knows Sammy. But I didn't.

00:43:06.770 - 00:43:14.600

And I knew I knew a couple of those. A guy named Lonnie White who used to hang out in the Deer Park and there were a few people,

00:43:14.600 - 00:43:27.830

but I didn't really, there was no very little social interaction between blacks and whites at that time. And so sort of

00:43:27.830 - 00:43:36.890

commenting on race and in general kind of way. As, as the years went by and as I as I in my working life in

00:43:36.890 - 00:43:47.300

the Air Force is definitely integrated. And I definitely had friends and associates And, you know, my military career.

00:43:47.300 - 00:43:54.670

As it turns out, I know that I'm investing. Want to hear about that. How is it that I ended up as a military professionals?

00:43:54.670 - 00:44:01.010

But that's another whole story. But, but anyway, getting back to race, you know, I'm feeling pretty good about things

00:44:01.010 - 00:44:11.060

that I think we elected a black president. We've really turned the corner. There's, I remember segregation and we don't have that anymore.

00:44:11.060 - 00:44:20.540

And I know in the Air Force, I was in recruiting actually in my part of my job was to appeal and attract minority members.

00:44:20.540 - 00:44:26.360

And I worked really hard at that. And we spent a lot of money in decade and a lot of resources to doing that very thing.

00:44:26.360 - 00:44:34.970

And so I thought I was making a contribution. Well anyway, now that I'm retired and I do a lot of history reading, and I've recently been

00:44:34.970 - 00:44:43.340

reading about the reconstruction. And Jim Crow. And I realized that the Civil War has never actually ended.

00:44:43.340 - 00:44:54.800

That racism is alive and well. It's a lot more subtle than it used to be. But I'm actually very dismayed at the lack of progress.

00:44:54.800 - 00:45:04.920

The lack of, it's been 150 years since slavery and we barely moved on. And in fact, I,

00:45:04.920 - 00:45:16.380

you know, I, I, I, the older I get, the more I see things through a racial lens sometimes, you know, and you know,

00:45:16.380 - 00:45:33.910

I'm, I'm disappointed, dismayed. I put that it's very sad that we can't do better. So have you found

00:45:33.910 - 00:45:42.970

new meaning for Martin Luther King? Personally? Yes. Yes. Yes. I sold play the mountain top and

00:45:42.970 - 00:45:48.870

the Rep Theater Latin, I guess it was last year. Excellent play. It was really interested in getting done the,

00:45:48.870 - 00:45:57.080

after the play they had the actors have sort of a one-on-one session. It's very difficult play many ways to watch as

00:45:57.080 - 00:46:06.080

it takes place in Memphis and on the last night before he gave the speech. And it was just

00:46:06.080 - 00:46:14.310

really some good interaction with the audience. But the audience I think was entirely white. They were just like me.

00:46:14.310 - 00:46:23.930

They were retired people. White people. You know. Which theater was that? The Rep Theatre here.

00:46:23.930 - 00:46:37.280

I want to thank you for sharing some memories. Sure.

00:46:37.280 - 00:46:39.990

Their piece of the story. Okay.