Interview with Leo Tammi and Judy Reynolds Tammi, 2018 April 4

Come on and go with it. So we started him. Yeah. Okay. This is Rebecca Johnson Melvin,

and John Caldwell. Today is April 4, 2018 and we are in Newark, Delaware and the One Button Studio and

the University of Delaware library with Leo Tammy, I'm Judy Reynolds tamil. I was a student

at the University of Delaware in the sixties. And I was in active and activities evolved around civil rights and

anti-war activities and things like that. I just have a little anecdote, but let me preface this by saying that whenever you work against racism,

bigotry, agreed, war mongering, you discover that there is a certain level of Ireland said it's just beneath the surface that really supports all

that dynamic of racism and bigotry and so on. And so, unfortunately, oftentimes you find that sometimes it's a barrier to common sense and sometimes

you have to be accustomed to being uncomfortable. There's a level of discomfort. I think that goes on

with a lot of this all the time. As as we moved into the late sixties, we formed SDS and that was a core group that planned activities around civil rights and

other issues on campus at d u of d. And we always held public meetings. And over time, I discovered that there were some people

that came to our, to our student meetings that no way around it, they posed as student radicals.

But these were the few people that a few years before would shout racial slurs or bigoted epithet certain

whatever out to students who were working toward, towards us do civil rights and anti-war and so on.

And what was interesting is that they were in a sense, provocateurs that when we would most of our discussions Republic and

as we were working around, I'm trying to evolve policy, trying to evolve actions. And it was sort of amusing too

many of us that this small group, we're always seem to always want to do some violent action. And of course I just

ignored them at night and so did many others. Over time, things got pretty serious. Like I say, there's a certain level of violence just beneath the surface.

And if you're going to work for civil rights and so on, you'll find that you will get harassed at your workplace or, or at school.

You will find that you have to put up with some level of abuse. And over time, there is a risk of violence and

personal injury here are even worse. Or even to your family? Yeah. May not be it made the threats may

not be just to yourself. It can be to that that just goes along with it. I remember I think it was in 69.

A couple of people approached me. One day, I live on a family farm. They approached me that they wanted to be able to get some weapons.

They wanted to defend themselves. And they asked if I could buy some guns. I think it was because they were justifiably fearful for their life.

And one of them, I knew I loved who was a little colon and the woman he was with later achieved some renown.

And I, my response was, I love you. But don't ask me to do this. Not only does it ask yourself, this violates the principles

that we have come to cherish. But it's also pretty stupid because your Could you take an action on your

you want to do battle on their turf, which is a mistake. So they were aggrieved by my response and and

just said something to the effect, what we'll deal with you later. And they left, which was a typical response to the real hardcore

anti-war people at that time. It got to be like that for a period. And then very next day, literally the very next day.

I know this person I knew who was a student who I always assumed to be a provocateur, came to the farm.

And in the back seat of his car, he had must have been it doesn't jump guns. It was his car and he said These are all state police shot

comes in there for sale. Now, he said you'll love. You could use some weapons or something to that effect.

And I tell you, I was so insulted. Just think that the, what we call the powers that

be would think that I was stupid enough to fall for that. Then I thought that they would give me a little bit more respect,

the thing that I had more intelligence than that. So maybe it will, maybe I gave the

opposition too much credit to think that maybe that beyond that they weren't as smart as they thought they were.

So you mentioned the farm. Could you tell us about the family farm and how people gathered there?

Yes. Are you really should start that story with your father was the first where if our kitchen table

could talk stories I could tell. Isn't it the case? Yeah. Yeah.

There was still in our kitchen in the root and down in Virginia and stuff. Yeah.

My father made a kitchen table out of the door. Is a sturdy old kitchen table. Are able to die.

That's a lot of grief. Good times. But yeah, Sean, mother and said something to me about how I achieved

my radicalism naturally is at my, my parents, my father was active in the 1948 presidential campaign, supported Henry Wallace,

who at one time was Vice President and ran on the Progressive Party ticket. My father was also active.

We were farmers, small farm poultry farmers primarily, but we, you know, it was it was a peasant stream.

I like. My family was not too distant from Finland. I grew up speaking Finnish and we had 20 Eggers and

to milk cows and pigs and sheep. And mostly I've cash crop was because eggs. Man, you know, I mean, there was a big sign and there was a time

when everybody knew the way Tammy a fine. With just one point, my father, I decided to organize other farmers.

There was an opportunity to buy a feed mill. He thought, if we could all work together, pooling resources, create an authentic caught by a feed mill.

We could get vertically integrated and it'd be better for everybody. But it's often hard to convince people to take risks like that.

And so the effort did not turn out. But I don't know if that's what did it or if there was some other things. But my family became a target

for surveillance early on. I remember back in those dark years of the early 50s, the Red Scares and McCarthy period.

My mother, father had a heart attack. He lived in Florida. So my as my recollection is that she spent a week

with him on a return train trip. She had a man sit next to her who preceded to tell her her life story. She couldn't imagine it

just scared food better. Well, those are those are those are things that happen well and they have an impact

on the family because your mother came home very frightened. And I'm sure that that it impacted on young children.

But at least the family spoke about it. A lot of times in situations families would talk and run or or put it in

a different perspective in that the children were exposed to it. We're taught, you know, if something's, something's worthwhile,

it's worthwhile worth of worth enough to fight for. Even as a child, I understood that my parents lost

friendships and deepened other French. And so when did you get involved or become aware of your own personal beliefs and social and

political in high school and college probably earlier than that. Well, I grew up in an area that literally was probably when

you say it's more black or black. It was a poor Yes. At that time, I think if we took a head count,

most of the motions of black folks lived in what you call shotgun shacks. And as a kid,

I played with these children. We'd meet in the middle of the road. There wasn't much traffic then. Little kids can just play.

But I discovered that as I became school age, the bus came down, picked me up, and took me to brand new schools in New York. And the black kids walked

2 mi to a one-room schoolhouse, healed iron Hill School House, and until eighth grade. And then they were bussed to Middletown,

I think to a school that was my estimate or from I understood. It's pretty dilapidated and most most of those kids

dropped out of school at that point. So it was a lesson later on in the sixties as, as lot of states were forced to desegregate.

And the black kids started to ride the bus. It was cruel, it was hard as brutal, fights breaking out and so on. Well, I mean, I think what I learned from

that was and I think it's carried me all these years. Is that wherever you are, you have the opportunity to stand

up and speak out. Even though there are times I wish I would have, he didn't. But we were kids and it was confusing.

But our heart was always in the right place. And I think when they got older, we were able to push through and do the right thing.

Try to do the right thing, always do the right thing, but tried to. That's when I learned that if you take a stand,

you get bullied, you get harassed. You know, you know, people want to punch your lights out. And it just, yeah.

I remember I remember many years later I was George Wolfe kind and I were boxing. Actually, George is going to show me how to box.

Listen, he taught me was that small. I'm sure I go and I take a punch. The drive is touchy there. So when you were at

the University of Delaware, do you remember what year you came? What year did you graduate and what were you studying?

And how did you find some other like-minded students? Were some of the issues that you're sharing in college.

I graduated high school in 65 because Shannon High School in New York native and so was I was lucky. I went to school,

sorry calls because it was easy. I was commuter students. And I realized that I was smart enough for the college.

And first first-year 2 h, I think I was pretty good student. But then over time, I spent more and more time

with other like-minded people. And to be honest with you, my moral compass directed me one way. And I didn't put the effort into

studies that I probably would have if I'd gone to school earlier or later. And it was more important for me to take the stand,

the time zone, those dictate those. Those are very hard times. I where it's easy to romanticize about what we did,

but I don't I don't have much. Oh, yeah. I do remember some I have some funny stories

and it's nice to remember some of that. But a lot of it was just pretty hard. I graduated in 69 and not before I was expelled from school.

And on graduation, I received the letter from the knee and men that threaten me with trespassing if I came back to school,

to the campus, the campus, to the canvas. But fortunately, as soon as word of that out, I think we have faculties. Students court in those days

and they rescinded that order somehow. I was told within a day or so not to worry about that that is been rescinded.

Was there an incident that led to the expulsion or I think it was just general attitude. I was expelled from school. I know.

I'm struggling to find out why. I think I I think I have that memory of that now. Jeff Dean and I were instrumental

in initiating a campus. We initiated a campaign to oppose mandatory ROTC, all guys and good ROTC.

And so I think we wrote some of the first leaflets and first letters that are written that and over time, I remember there was

a parade ground where ROTC cadets would parade. And and for some reason, several anti-war folks and

all gathered around here. I don't really recall what drove them to do that, but I remember spontaneously.

It must have been eight or ten or 12 people just formed a line and marched on field information mocking the cadets.

And I don't know about that. But it was kinda funny. And those who were could be identified

were expelled from school. So as a result, we wouldn't call it a petition. But I guess it was maybe

it was a pleaded guilty petition. Many of us signed a petition that claim to what we we marched on there too.

You know, I think we probably had 30 or 40 people. Anyway, that was one of the ones that I didn't march on

the field but I found a paper. Yeah. Yeah. But you solidarity because it did. Yeah.

Me too. So alright. I do I do forget how it was resolved, but I mean, I don't think there's

a couple of days of classes in my life. My professors were very kind to me. You know, I don't feel like you have to leave.

That's one of them. Point-blank said that to you, but then others said, turn in the work and we don't care.

Well, worked itself out. I'm trying to recall 50-year-old events. Well, I thought you're going to tell the story

about turning the campus, setting up. Oh no, I haven't had enough to drink yet. Know that's going to have to wait for those. Funny.

So no 2 min, you are definitely remembered for your photography. When did you start taking photographs and what did you take photographs of?

Oh, I I got a camera when I was a kid. And that's what started it. I shelf completely self-taught trial and error, mostly.

And I just figured out I had an HIE for it. I enjoyed it and I started doing it. And then it occurred to me how to start documenting. And I did.

And paradoxical Boys gave me a platform to do it. You know, I had a dark room at home and I would

take pictures and within an hour I have some wet prints. And so, you know, that's that's what I did.

I enjoyed it. And there was a time when I was doing some freelance even after I graduate school,

I did some freelance photography. Practice it in high school. Yeah. I were in school.

Paper and I even though my high-school hired me after graduation to come and do some sports photography was

a pretty good idea really, because it helped to build a spree within the sports team that if they had to meet on Saturday,

on Monday, there were pictures on a display case and they enjoyed it. I thought that was pretty good idea. So I really enjoyed sports

and photographing sports and all. And I enjoy all that. When I graduated, there was a time I was doing

some freelance work and discovered it was a way to start. And I worked with a writer for a period. Dickey, how he his interests was

primarily sports and so he would do the writing and I do the photography. We got published a few places

and that was fine. But to keep them starving, I had a garden and always kept a few animals. And and I, I grew

up like many foreign kids knowing full well that I was not going to farm. I learned that lesson early on,

but I kind of surprised myself. I discovered that I must have had I must have gotten something out of keeping

my hands in the dirt. And as a matter of fact, after a few years, I got to know you. And I don't know if it's true or not,

but I my sense of it was that you probably didn't see any of my virtues until you sold my garden.

Cardinals. Where was the Garden? Was announced chapel. That was my my father

was I was living with my father at the time. Delivering your mail? Yeah. Yeah. I got to know duty if she'd been in mind now,

but I worked with your brother? Yeah, a few years before that, we were in for h and we did some things together.

So I knew him well. He speaking math of photography, I think I think you did photography projects while you're

with for age also don't Oh, yeah. It was stepping from one from one job to another. But you were doing photography

with most everything that you're doing. And so he developed a pretty good eye for it. But also, frankly, I knew that she would not be able to make a living

at it in the New York area? Yeah. I remember there was a columnist at work for your paper was doing weekly.

Me she liked that one day. He had a weekly call them. One day. One of his weekly columns produced

a list of students not to hire in the area. So by first blacklist. Yeah. Man. More day to day.

Sorry. I'm just going to be edited. I was wondering if you could tell us more about

the heterodox cool voice and like how it started and who are involved in your distribution that you mentioned. I wish I believe we're

definitely missing a couple of issues. Well, but yeah, that's a shape number one. That's a shame because we had boxes. Oh, yeah.

And I remember when we were moving to Virginia, I took a long look at that box and all this stuff in it.

I said, Oh, so must remove it so much stuff anyway. But how did it get started? You know, I don't have a clear memory that

new gym time rarely do I have that name right? As I recall, he was the editor. He could write.

I never considered myself much of a writer, although I subsequently, I found myself in admission. Wife had to. I've assumed

leadership roles and agriculture on the state and national level. Some of that comes with some responsibility to

keep people informed and, and, you know, this any other. So I own some writing skills since then, but I was pleased to contribute photography.

And as a matter of fact, I've just been pretty using what I can find the paradoxical voice online. And I'm surprised at

what I see and I see some of my photos are there and so somebody must have asked me to take those pictures. Some of them I can just,

you know, are you oh, yeah. I mean, they think, oh, we know, we're going to Chicago or we're going to demonstration in DC or New York.

So of course, you know, and I, although my equipment was pretty primitive, even by the standards of the day,

I probably taking pictures at night and and things like that. But, you know, but I knew my way around the camera.

My biggest problem was what I could afford. It was it was never, you know, I was I tried to be as fruitful as I could in my photography because,

you know, I mean, nobody who's supporting me on what kind of camera did you think he knows? Years I had him Miranda.

I don't I don't guess there ever made him when I was in high school, I was having to use a high-school Minolta camera

and but yeah, I just had a cheap old, right? Oh, I was a time when you could buy these big old four by

five graphs next cameras to practically given MOI, remember there was a photo dealer in Wilmington and open the door for me

and showed me he had shelves because people were shifting from those old big format cameras to the small 35-millimeter.

I wanted a big format camera and I had, so I had fun with that. I always, you know, when you're working a large format camera,

It's just not an entirely different approach to what you're doing, you know, and you know, and so I got artsy, crafty, and stuff like that.

Yeah. What was it like some of the events that you went to and Wilmington or Washington or

Chicago to be there with your camera? Well, Chicago of course was the most had the greatest impact on me. And something that was timing and sell

it because what we witnessed, which was essentially a police riot, was, as it was described by the backup condemned the commission that's studied

that turmoil in DC. I remember one evening the cops are just chasing everybody there, Jason, older residents, and beating them up as

they're trying to get back to their homes and apartments. And I remember I had I had one picture. I have series of pictures.

Some spontaneous student leader or protest leader that climbed a statue in Grant Park. I think cops hustled

up after him and dragging down on I'm not certain but that he might have broken his arm or something and getting them off the statute.

I I later read and much later, months later that that was a provocateur who is a fellow comp. I think as it as it was described,

you know, what was the deal and said, don't follow the ears, watch the parking meters. That's good advice. Did you

feel at risk when oh, yeah. There was a sec. Yeah. Unfortunately, I was wondering two steps back from the front line.

So the billy clubs were swinging but they didn't make contact with me. I was I mean,

this might sound a little I guess I was a little out of place. I am at a place in urban areas and a lot

of the activities happen at night. And I get up early. I went back and went to sleep. I don't get up at sunrise

and nothing was happening. Yeah. It's a different, you know. So often just go for a job alone.

Michigan Avenue, sleep in and that's why things happen at night. So I guess I'm not very good. I guess there's parts of that culture

that just didn't suit me. So I went together to Chicago. Oh, I remember. I remember when we first went tissue,

George wool cotton, Sharon Johnson and myself. And see Rob Bresler, professor signs and woman he married.

She's terrible, terrible with names. We were in Chicago in 1967. It was at a conference there. And here are some other people

I'm sure I'm not giving credit to there and I apologize for that. I remember they discovered I had a hotel room.

So at one point I had a dozen people. I I slept in bathroom. I remember one night. And I remember we were invited.

Two, we went to a church and we heard Martin Luther King speak. And that is seared in my memory.

If no other the ruckus at the time as he was speaking, there were what you might describe as black militants in the back that were,

you know, gently haranguing him because they were just more militant. So there was a certain electricity in the air for sure.

But I remember hearing him say that we have learned to fly in the sky like birds and swimming in the sea like fish.

And we need to learn to walk on air. It's like men. So wow, you know you remember that. Two trips to Chicago?

Yeah, the next year we went if strike against ICC list. If I'm not mistaken, I think I hitchhiked with Jim Tom rally.

A woman by the name of Mary and Brooks. I end. If you're hitchhiking, It's always a good idea to bring a woman with you.

I remember I was You've seen as you've seen as not as not not so threatening, at least in those days. I didn't know what it is, the rules now I

remember one time George Walcott and I were on our way to New York City because he wanted to go into some sports event.

I don't follow sports. I don't know. Do you want to become a law? And because there was there was there was

some notion that there was going to be some political activities at the event. Some, some black players or, or something coming was going to happen.

So we had to go to the sporting event. And he picked me up and I didn't pay attention. I figured he did. I saw

these red lights come on the dash. Well, you know, when I go for drive, I check the oil and check it out. Well, he blew the angela New Jersey Turnpike.

The three of us in the car, Sharon Johnson, Georgia. And so we had to hitchhike comb. So George and I would

kind of hide in the bushes and when we did the hitchhiking, we would jump out. She's, she's doing his breast.

And the one texture that send the heterodox go voice from the 68 trip to the Democratic National Convention.

That's the guy with the head injury. Art magnet so much, yeah. And what happened when he just got too close to billy club?

I didn't see it. I don't know, but I got that picture of him the next day. Was he a UT student?

Yes. Yes, he was. I did not know him well. So did you travel there together or you

just said there were other there were other groups of students who had gone at the same time, but they each traveled independently?

Yeah. Do you know the communications that students have available to them? It's mind-boggling relative to

what we were thinking about. And so, you know, there could have been, there could have been 20 or 30 cars that, but I remember it

radicalized online students. I mean, there were a lot of, you know, what does it get green for gene. That was their motto.

And of course, a lot of the folks that supported Robert Kennedy, and of course in those years, primaries weren't nearly as

important as they are now. And humphrey of course, got the nomination. And I remember when the when all the

serious stuff that the convention concluded, I remember sitting on the lawn talking to Pierre Salinger. Was it was,

it was kind of interesting because he was bombed out. And he wanted to know what, what, what all these protesters,

whether these students and so we just sat there and I don't know. He was just trying to get things wrapped around in his own mind. What I understand.

And so it was it was kinda nice to have that little chat with him. Remember that?

As I recall, he came in ex-pat in France for a long time. Yeah. Yeah. So I think this is the start,

I hope, of some war stories another time. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay.