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Come on and go with it. So we started him. Yeah. Okay. This is Rebecca Johnson Melvin,

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and John Caldwell. Today is April 4, 2018 and we are in Newark, Delaware and the One Button Studio and

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the University of Delaware library with Leo Tammy, I'm Judy Reynolds tamil. I was a student

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at the University of Delaware in the sixties. And I was in active and activities evolved around civil rights and

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anti-war activities and things like that. I just have a little anecdote, but let me preface this by saying that whenever you work against racism,

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bigotry, agreed, war mongering, you discover that there is a certain level of Ireland said it's just beneath the surface that really supports all

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that dynamic of racism and bigotry and so on. And so, unfortunately, oftentimes you find that sometimes it's a barrier to common sense and sometimes

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you have to be accustomed to being uncomfortable. There's a level of discomfort. I think that goes on

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with a lot of this all the time. As as we moved into the late sixties, we formed SDS and that was a core group that planned activities around civil rights and

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other issues on campus at d u of d. And we always held public meetings. And over time, I discovered that there were some people

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that came to our, to our student meetings that no way around it, they posed as student radicals.

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But these were the few people that a few years before would shout racial slurs or bigoted epithet certain

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whatever out to students who were working toward, towards us do civil rights and anti-war and so on.

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And what was interesting is that they were in a sense, provocateurs that when we would most of our discussions Republic and

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as we were working around, I'm trying to evolve policy, trying to evolve actions. And it was sort of amusing too

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many of us that this small group, we're always seem to always want to do some violent action. And of course I just

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ignored them at night and so did many others. Over time, things got pretty serious. Like I say, there's a certain level of violence just beneath the surface.

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And if you're going to work for civil rights and so on, you'll find that you will get harassed at your workplace or, or at school.

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You will find that you have to put up with some level of abuse. And over time, there is a risk of violence and

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personal injury here are even worse. Or even to your family? Yeah. May not be it made the threats may

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not be just to yourself. It can be to that that just goes along with it. I remember I think it was in 69.

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A couple of people approached me. One day, I live on a family farm. They approached me that they wanted to be able to get some weapons.

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They wanted to defend themselves. And they asked if I could buy some guns. I think it was because they were justifiably fearful for their life.

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And one of them, I knew I loved who was a little colon and the woman he was with later achieved some renown.

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And I, my response was, I love you. But don't ask me to do this. Not only does it ask yourself, this violates the principles

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that we have come to cherish. But it's also pretty stupid because your Could you take an action on your

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you want to do battle on their turf, which is a mistake. So they were aggrieved by my response and and

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just said something to the effect, what we'll deal with you later. And they left, which was a typical response to the real hardcore

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anti-war people at that time. It got to be like that for a period. And then very next day, literally the very next day.

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I know this person I knew who was a student who I always assumed to be a provocateur, came to the farm.

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And in the back seat of his car, he had must have been it doesn't jump guns. It was his car and he said These are all state police shot

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comes in there for sale. Now, he said you'll love. You could use some weapons or something to that effect.

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And I tell you, I was so insulted. Just think that the, what we call the powers that

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be would think that I was stupid enough to fall for that. Then I thought that they would give me a little bit more respect,

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the thing that I had more intelligence than that. So maybe it will, maybe I gave the

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opposition too much credit to think that maybe that beyond that they weren't as smart as they thought they were.

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So you mentioned the farm. Could you tell us about the family farm and how people gathered there?

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Yes. Are you really should start that story with your father was the first where if our kitchen table

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could talk stories I could tell. Isn't it the case? Yeah. Yeah.

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There was still in our kitchen in the root and down in Virginia and stuff. Yeah.

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My father made a kitchen table out of the door. Is a sturdy old kitchen table. Are able to die.

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That's a lot of grief. Good times. But yeah, Sean, mother and said something to me about how I achieved

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my radicalism naturally is at my, my parents, my father was active in the 1948 presidential campaign, supported Henry Wallace,

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who at one time was Vice President and ran on the Progressive Party ticket. My father was also active.

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We were farmers, small farm poultry farmers primarily, but we, you know, it was it was a peasant stream.

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I like. My family was not too distant from Finland. I grew up speaking Finnish and we had 20 Eggers and

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to milk cows and pigs and sheep. And mostly I've cash crop was because eggs. Man, you know, I mean, there was a big sign and there was a time

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when everybody knew the way Tammy a fine. With just one point, my father, I decided to organize other farmers.

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There was an opportunity to buy a feed mill. He thought, if we could all work together, pooling resources, create an authentic caught by a feed mill.

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We could get vertically integrated and it'd be better for everybody. But it's often hard to convince people to take risks like that.

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And so the effort did not turn out. But I don't know if that's what did it or if there was some other things. But my family became a target

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for surveillance early on. I remember back in those dark years of the early 50s, the Red Scares and McCarthy period.

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My mother, father had a heart attack. He lived in Florida. So my as my recollection is that she spent a week

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with him on a return train trip. She had a man sit next to her who preceded to tell her her life story. She couldn't imagine it

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just scared food better. Well, those are those are those are things that happen well and they have an impact

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on the family because your mother came home very frightened. And I'm sure that that it impacted on young children.

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But at least the family spoke about it. A lot of times in situations families would talk and run or or put it in

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a different perspective in that the children were exposed to it. We're taught, you know, if something's, something's worthwhile,

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it's worthwhile worth of worth enough to fight for. Even as a child, I understood that my parents lost

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friendships and deepened other French. And so when did you get involved or become aware of your own personal beliefs and social and

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political in high school and college probably earlier than that. Well, I grew up in an area that literally was probably when

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you say it's more black or black. It was a poor Yes. At that time, I think if we took a head count,

00:10:07.650 - 00:10:14.030

most of the motions of black folks lived in what you call shotgun shacks. And as a kid,

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I played with these children. We'd meet in the middle of the road. There wasn't much traffic then. Little kids can just play.

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But I discovered that as I became school age, the bus came down, picked me up, and took me to brand new schools in New York. And the black kids walked

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2 mi to a one-room schoolhouse, healed iron Hill School House, and until eighth grade. And then they were bussed to Middletown,

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I think to a school that was my estimate or from I understood. It's pretty dilapidated and most most of those kids

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dropped out of school at that point. So it was a lesson later on in the sixties as, as lot of states were forced to desegregate.

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And the black kids started to ride the bus. It was cruel, it was hard as brutal, fights breaking out and so on. Well, I mean, I think what I learned from

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that was and I think it's carried me all these years. Is that wherever you are, you have the opportunity to stand

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up and speak out. Even though there are times I wish I would have, he didn't. But we were kids and it was confusing.

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But our heart was always in the right place. And I think when they got older, we were able to push through and do the right thing.

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Try to do the right thing, always do the right thing, but tried to. That's when I learned that if you take a stand,

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you get bullied, you get harassed. You know, you know, people want to punch your lights out. And it just, yeah.

00:12:06.140 - 00:12:19.910

I remember I remember many years later I was George Wolfe kind and I were boxing. Actually, George is going to show me how to box.

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Listen, he taught me was that small. I'm sure I go and I take a punch. The drive is touchy there. So when you were at

00:12:32.870 - 00:12:39.250

the University of Delaware, do you remember what year you came? What year did you graduate and what were you studying?

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And how did you find some other like-minded students? Were some of the issues that you're sharing in college.

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I graduated high school in 65 because Shannon High School in New York native and so was I was lucky. I went to school,

00:12:54.560 - 00:13:01.890

sorry calls because it was easy. I was commuter students. And I realized that I was smart enough for the college.

00:13:01.890 - 00:13:16.240

And first first-year 2 h, I think I was pretty good student. But then over time, I spent more and more time

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with other like-minded people. And to be honest with you, my moral compass directed me one way. And I didn't put the effort into

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studies that I probably would have if I'd gone to school earlier or later. And it was more important for me to take the stand,

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the time zone, those dictate those. Those are very hard times. I where it's easy to romanticize about what we did,

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but I don't I don't have much. Oh, yeah. I do remember some I have some funny stories

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and it's nice to remember some of that. But a lot of it was just pretty hard. I graduated in 69 and not before I was expelled from school.

00:14:04.790 - 00:14:13.190

And on graduation, I received the letter from the knee and men that threaten me with trespassing if I came back to school,

00:14:13.190 - 00:14:27.830

to the campus, the campus, to the canvas. But fortunately, as soon as word of that out, I think we have faculties. Students court in those days

00:14:27.830 - 00:14:38.060

and they rescinded that order somehow. I was told within a day or so not to worry about that that is been rescinded.

00:14:38.060 - 00:14:48.690

Was there an incident that led to the expulsion or I think it was just general attitude. I was expelled from school. I know.

00:14:48.690 - 00:14:57.640

I'm struggling to find out why. I think I I think I have that memory of that now. Jeff Dean and I were instrumental

00:14:57.640 - 00:15:11.980

in initiating a campus. We initiated a campaign to oppose mandatory ROTC, all guys and good ROTC.

00:15:11.980 - 00:15:26.000

And so I think we wrote some of the first leaflets and first letters that are written that and over time, I remember there was

00:15:26.000 - 00:15:37.880

a parade ground where ROTC cadets would parade. And and for some reason, several anti-war folks and

00:15:37.880 - 00:15:45.280

all gathered around here. I don't really recall what drove them to do that, but I remember spontaneously.

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It must have been eight or ten or 12 people just formed a line and marched on field information mocking the cadets.

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And I don't know about that. But it was kinda funny. And those who were could be identified

00:16:07.400 - 00:16:19.760

were expelled from school. So as a result, we wouldn't call it a petition. But I guess it was maybe

00:16:19.760 - 00:16:24.950

it was a pleaded guilty petition. Many of us signed a petition that claim to what we we marched on there too.

00:16:24.950 - 00:16:30.590

You know, I think we probably had 30 or 40 people. Anyway, that was one of the ones that I didn't march on

00:16:30.590 - 00:16:36.600

the field but I found a paper. Yeah. Yeah. But you solidarity because it did. Yeah.

00:16:36.600 - 00:16:48.150

Me too. So alright. I do I do forget how it was resolved, but I mean, I don't think there's

00:16:48.150 - 00:16:57.810

a couple of days of classes in my life. My professors were very kind to me. You know, I don't feel like you have to leave.

00:16:57.810 - 00:17:02.840

That's one of them. Point-blank said that to you, but then others said, turn in the work and we don't care.

00:17:02.840 - 00:17:11.030

Well, worked itself out. I'm trying to recall 50-year-old events. Well, I thought you're going to tell the story

00:17:11.030 - 00:17:23.490

about turning the campus, setting up. Oh no, I haven't had enough to drink yet. Know that's going to have to wait for those. Funny.

00:17:24.340 - 00:17:33.700

So no 2 min, you are definitely remembered for your photography. When did you start taking photographs and what did you take photographs of?

00:17:33.700 - 00:17:44.840

Oh, I I got a camera when I was a kid. And that's what started it. I shelf completely self-taught trial and error, mostly.

00:17:44.840 - 00:17:56.600

And I just figured out I had an HIE for it. I enjoyed it and I started doing it. And then it occurred to me how to start documenting. And I did.

00:17:56.600 - 00:18:05.300

And paradoxical Boys gave me a platform to do it. You know, I had a dark room at home and I would

00:18:05.300 - 00:18:18.920

take pictures and within an hour I have some wet prints. And so, you know, that's that's what I did.

00:18:18.920 - 00:18:26.300

I enjoyed it. And there was a time when I was doing some freelance even after I graduate school,

00:18:26.300 - 00:18:33.950

I did some freelance photography. Practice it in high school. Yeah. I were in school.

00:18:33.950 - 00:18:41.270

Paper and I even though my high-school hired me after graduation to come and do some sports photography was

00:18:41.270 - 00:18:50.640

a pretty good idea really, because it helped to build a spree within the sports team that if they had to meet on Saturday,

00:18:50.640 - 00:18:58.250

on Monday, there were pictures on a display case and they enjoyed it. I thought that was pretty good idea. So I really enjoyed sports

00:18:58.250 - 00:19:06.680

and photographing sports and all. And I enjoy all that. When I graduated, there was a time I was doing

00:19:06.680 - 00:19:18.530

some freelance work and discovered it was a way to start. And I worked with a writer for a period. Dickey, how he his interests was

00:19:18.530 - 00:19:23.430

primarily sports and so he would do the writing and I do the photography. We got published a few places

00:19:23.430 - 00:19:36.890

and that was fine. But to keep them starving, I had a garden and always kept a few animals. And and I, I grew

00:19:36.890 - 00:19:43.770

up like many foreign kids knowing full well that I was not going to farm. I learned that lesson early on,

00:19:43.770 - 00:19:51.290

but I kind of surprised myself. I discovered that I must have had I must have gotten something out of keeping

00:19:51.290 - 00:19:59.120

my hands in the dirt. And as a matter of fact, after a few years, I got to know you. And I don't know if it's true or not,

00:19:59.120 - 00:20:07.460

but I my sense of it was that you probably didn't see any of my virtues until you sold my garden.

00:20:07.460 - 00:20:15.500

Cardinals. Where was the Garden? Was announced chapel. That was my my father

00:20:15.500 - 00:20:23.360

was I was living with my father at the time. Delivering your mail? Yeah. Yeah. I got to know duty if she'd been in mind now,

00:20:23.360 - 00:20:30.880

but I worked with your brother? Yeah, a few years before that, we were in for h and we did some things together.

00:20:30.880 - 00:20:38.210

So I knew him well. He speaking math of photography, I think I think you did photography projects while you're

00:20:38.210 - 00:20:45.650

with for age also don't Oh, yeah. It was stepping from one from one job to another. But you were doing photography

00:20:45.650 - 00:20:57.020

with most everything that you're doing. And so he developed a pretty good eye for it. But also, frankly, I knew that she would not be able to make a living

00:20:57.020 - 00:21:06.350

at it in the New York area? Yeah. I remember there was a columnist at work for your paper was doing weekly.

00:21:06.350 - 00:21:15.380

Me she liked that one day. He had a weekly call them. One day. One of his weekly columns produced

00:21:15.380 - 00:21:36.510

a list of students not to hire in the area. So by first blacklist. Yeah. Man. More day to day.

00:21:39.270 - 00:21:50.510

Sorry. I'm just going to be edited. I was wondering if you could tell us more about

00:21:50.510 - 00:21:58.130

the heterodox cool voice and like how it started and who are involved in your distribution that you mentioned. I wish I believe we're

00:21:58.130 - 00:22:07.110

definitely missing a couple of issues. Well, but yeah, that's a shape number one. That's a shame because we had boxes. Oh, yeah.

00:22:07.110 - 00:22:14.520

And I remember when we were moving to Virginia, I took a long look at that box and all this stuff in it.

00:22:15.100 - 00:22:30.170

I said, Oh, so must remove it so much stuff anyway. But how did it get started? You know, I don't have a clear memory that

00:22:30.170 - 00:22:36.470

new gym time rarely do I have that name right? As I recall, he was the editor. He could write.

00:22:36.470 - 00:22:45.710

I never considered myself much of a writer, although I subsequently, I found myself in admission. Wife had to. I've assumed

00:22:45.710 - 00:22:52.760

leadership roles and agriculture on the state and national level. Some of that comes with some responsibility to

00:22:52.760 - 00:23:07.200

keep people informed and, and, you know, this any other. So I own some writing skills since then, but I was pleased to contribute photography.

00:23:07.200 - 00:23:14.480

And as a matter of fact, I've just been pretty using what I can find the paradoxical voice online. And I'm surprised at

00:23:14.480 - 00:23:21.270

what I see and I see some of my photos are there and so somebody must have asked me to take those pictures. Some of them I can just,

00:23:21.270 - 00:23:28.790

you know, are you oh, yeah. I mean, they think, oh, we know, we're going to Chicago or we're going to demonstration in DC or New York.

00:23:28.790 - 00:23:36.530

So of course, you know, and I, although my equipment was pretty primitive, even by the standards of the day,

00:23:36.530 - 00:23:43.610

I probably taking pictures at night and and things like that. But, you know, but I knew my way around the camera.

00:23:43.610 - 00:23:54.550

My biggest problem was what I could afford. It was it was never, you know, I was I tried to be as fruitful as I could in my photography because,

00:23:54.550 - 00:24:01.210

you know, I mean, nobody who's supporting me on what kind of camera did you think he knows? Years I had him Miranda.

00:24:01.210 - 00:24:08.680

I don't I don't guess there ever made him when I was in high school, I was having to use a high-school Minolta camera

00:24:08.680 - 00:24:17.810

and but yeah, I just had a cheap old, right? Oh, I was a time when you could buy these big old four by

00:24:17.810 - 00:24:24.320

five graphs next cameras to practically given MOI, remember there was a photo dealer in Wilmington and open the door for me

00:24:24.320 - 00:24:32.300

and showed me he had shelves because people were shifting from those old big format cameras to the small 35-millimeter.

00:24:32.300 - 00:24:39.400

I wanted a big format camera and I had, so I had fun with that. I always, you know, when you're working a large format camera,

00:24:39.400 - 00:24:49.500

It's just not an entirely different approach to what you're doing, you know, and you know, and so I got artsy, crafty, and stuff like that.

00:24:50.530 - 00:24:56.900

Yeah. What was it like some of the events that you went to and Wilmington or Washington or

00:24:56.900 - 00:25:10.460

Chicago to be there with your camera? Well, Chicago of course was the most had the greatest impact on me. And something that was timing and sell

00:25:10.460 - 00:25:22.490

it because what we witnessed, which was essentially a police riot, was, as it was described by the backup condemned the commission that's studied

00:25:22.490 - 00:25:30.920

that turmoil in DC. I remember one evening the cops are just chasing everybody there, Jason, older residents, and beating them up as

00:25:30.920 - 00:25:40.660

they're trying to get back to their homes and apartments. And I remember I had I had one picture. I have series of pictures.

00:25:40.660 - 00:25:52.100

Some spontaneous student leader or protest leader that climbed a statue in Grant Park. I think cops hustled

00:25:52.100 - 00:26:00.820

up after him and dragging down on I'm not certain but that he might have broken his arm or something and getting them off the statute.

00:26:00.820 - 00:26:12.590

I I later read and much later, months later that that was a provocateur who is a fellow comp. I think as it as it was described,

00:26:12.590 - 00:26:22.640

you know, what was the deal and said, don't follow the ears, watch the parking meters. That's good advice. Did you

00:26:22.640 - 00:26:29.450

feel at risk when oh, yeah. There was a sec. Yeah. Unfortunately, I was wondering two steps back from the front line.

00:26:29.450 - 00:26:38.300

So the billy clubs were swinging but they didn't make contact with me. I was I mean,

00:26:38.300 - 00:26:46.670

this might sound a little I guess I was a little out of place. I am at a place in urban areas and a lot

00:26:46.670 - 00:26:56.580

of the activities happen at night. And I get up early. I went back and went to sleep. I don't get up at sunrise

00:26:56.580 - 00:27:03.730

and nothing was happening. Yeah. It's a different, you know. So often just go for a job alone.

00:27:03.730 - 00:27:12.920

Michigan Avenue, sleep in and that's why things happen at night. So I guess I'm not very good. I guess there's parts of that culture

00:27:12.920 - 00:27:21.000

that just didn't suit me. So I went together to Chicago. Oh, I remember. I remember when we first went tissue,

00:27:21.000 - 00:27:31.250

George wool cotton, Sharon Johnson and myself. And see Rob Bresler, professor signs and woman he married.

00:27:31.250 - 00:27:39.020

She's terrible, terrible with names. We were in Chicago in 1967. It was at a conference there. And here are some other people

00:27:39.020 - 00:27:46.560

I'm sure I'm not giving credit to there and I apologize for that. I remember they discovered I had a hotel room.

00:27:46.560 - 00:27:57.180

So at one point I had a dozen people. I I slept in bathroom. I remember one night. And I remember we were invited.

00:27:57.180 - 00:28:08.140

Two, we went to a church and we heard Martin Luther King speak. And that is seared in my memory.

00:28:08.140 - 00:28:18.320

If no other the ruckus at the time as he was speaking, there were what you might describe as black militants in the back that were,

00:28:18.320 - 00:28:28.470

you know, gently haranguing him because they were just more militant. So there was a certain electricity in the air for sure.

00:28:28.470 - 00:28:37.560

But I remember hearing him say that we have learned to fly in the sky like birds and swimming in the sea like fish.

00:28:37.560 - 00:28:55.140

And we need to learn to walk on air. It's like men. So wow, you know you remember that. Two trips to Chicago?

00:28:55.140 - 00:29:02.760

Yeah, the next year we went if strike against ICC list. If I'm not mistaken, I think I hitchhiked with Jim Tom rally.

00:29:03.250 - 00:29:12.190

A woman by the name of Mary and Brooks. I end. If you're hitchhiking, It's always a good idea to bring a woman with you.

00:29:12.190 - 00:29:20.720

I remember I was You've seen as you've seen as not as not not so threatening, at least in those days. I didn't know what it is, the rules now I

00:29:20.720 - 00:29:28.880

remember one time George Walcott and I were on our way to New York City because he wanted to go into some sports event.

00:29:28.880 - 00:29:35.880

I don't follow sports. I don't know. Do you want to become a law? And because there was there was there was

00:29:35.880 - 00:29:46.200

some notion that there was going to be some political activities at the event. Some, some black players or, or something coming was going to happen.

00:29:46.200 - 00:29:54.830

So we had to go to the sporting event. And he picked me up and I didn't pay attention. I figured he did. I saw

00:29:54.830 - 00:30:05.420

these red lights come on the dash. Well, you know, when I go for drive, I check the oil and check it out. Well, he blew the angela New Jersey Turnpike.

00:30:05.420 - 00:30:11.840

The three of us in the car, Sharon Johnson, Georgia. And so we had to hitchhike comb. So George and I would

00:30:11.840 - 00:30:22.130

kind of hide in the bushes and when we did the hitchhiking, we would jump out. She's, she's doing his breast.

00:30:22.130 - 00:30:30.380

And the one texture that send the heterodox go voice from the 68 trip to the Democratic National Convention.

00:30:30.380 - 00:30:38.570

That's the guy with the head injury. Art magnet so much, yeah. And what happened when he just got too close to billy club?

00:30:38.570 - 00:30:45.620

I didn't see it. I don't know, but I got that picture of him the next day. Was he a UT student?

00:30:45.620 - 00:30:52.700

Yes. Yes, he was. I did not know him well. So did you travel there together or you

00:30:52.700 - 00:31:00.710

just said there were other there were other groups of students who had gone at the same time, but they each traveled independently?

00:31:00.710 - 00:31:06.800

Yeah. Do you know the communications that students have available to them? It's mind-boggling relative to

00:31:06.800 - 00:31:17.180

what we were thinking about. And so, you know, there could have been, there could have been 20 or 30 cars that, but I remember it

00:31:17.180 - 00:31:26.590

radicalized online students. I mean, there were a lot of, you know, what does it get green for gene. That was their motto.

00:31:26.590 - 00:31:35.210

And of course, a lot of the folks that supported Robert Kennedy, and of course in those years, primaries weren't nearly as

00:31:35.210 - 00:31:44.780

important as they are now. And humphrey of course, got the nomination. And I remember when the when all the

00:31:44.780 - 00:31:56.740

serious stuff that the convention concluded, I remember sitting on the lawn talking to Pierre Salinger. Was it was,

00:31:56.740 - 00:32:04.340

it was kind of interesting because he was bombed out. And he wanted to know what, what, what all these protesters,

00:32:04.340 - 00:32:13.320

whether these students and so we just sat there and I don't know. He was just trying to get things wrapped around in his own mind. What I understand.

00:32:13.320 - 00:32:23.340

And so it was it was kinda nice to have that little chat with him. Remember that?

00:32:24.100 - 00:32:36.920

As I recall, he came in ex-pat in France for a long time. Yeah. Yeah. So I think this is the start,

00:32:36.920 - 00:32:43.380

I hope, of some war stories another time. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay.