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Okay. Do you see that message? Yeah. Good. This is May 31st, 2022.

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This is Rebecca Johnson Melvin. And I am here in Morris library interviewing via Zoom, a guest in our project, voices of 1968.

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I'd like to ask our guests to introduce himself. Thank you. Good Morning, Rebecca.

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I'm Rich Gallo and I am a 1971 graduate of the University of Delaware. So can you give us some personal background

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leading up to 1968, where were you born and where did you live them? And where did you go to school

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before you came to the University of Delaware? I was born and raised here in Wilmington

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and the sufferers overwhelming tin. I was groping a pretty much a middle-class suburban family. I went to Mount Pleasant High School,

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graduated in 1967 and matriculated to in Delaware in September 1967. So what do you remember about

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campus life at the time? Either academics or the social life and her team at what was going on on campus? Yes.

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I want to preface my remarks by saying that in the first semester, that is the end of the year 1967, I was what I would describe as kind of

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a typical home sick kid even only lived 45 min away. So I really wasn't on the campus. Involved in social activities,

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are very much aware of what was going on. I devoted myself academic tilt, my academics, but by January of 1968, when the second semester started, I was fine.

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I then became much more engaged in, spent virtually all my time on the campus including the weekends. What I think one must

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understand to understand 1968 dimension of Delaware is that at the University of Delaware, in my opinion,

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at least the school was behind the curve, so to speak, on political and social issues of the day. Other campuses.

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I had read about in the newspapers and heard on television, radio, or much more active with regard to protests

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and rallies in the early part of 1968. That was not the atmosphere at the University of Delaware. The atmosphere was still

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pretty much a social. So social life controlled as the second semester for freshmen was the time to rush fraternities and sororities.

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And that was a dominant activity on campus. Very strong recollection of that going on. Other than that, there were other typical college activities.

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There were the beginnings of some rallies and some protest, which I'll discuss in a minute. Primarily the Bresler Myers affair

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as I think it became to be known, which was which was heating up. But it wouldn't be accurate to describe the campus is any kind

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of hotbed of social and political activities. So you mentioned reading, and I wonder if you could say a little bit more about other information sources, e.g.

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the review, the student newspaper, How did it cover what was going on elsewhere in the campus? And did you read the heterodoxy equal voice,

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sort of an underground paper? Did you watch the evening news on a regular basis? Which newspapers Did you read or did you

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read any life, anything like that? Alright, we have to begin again by remembering there was no Internet in any way, shape, or form, or were

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there any cell phones? So communication was a very different world. I was always what one might say, interested in politics and what was going

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on in my family was very liberal. Family, always a topic of conversation in high school, in the household was what was going on.

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Most of what I learned was from probably the newspapers and that would include the Wilmington paper. I don't know whether in that day

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was still a morning and evening instead of additions or that was after the merger. But in any event, I read news in

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the newspapers quite regularly. I wasn't much on television news during my years on campus. But first of all, the television access

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was limited to everybody. That was one basically one television per dorm and I lived in a dorm. So wasn't that wasn't big.

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Review. Absolutely read it. In those days. I believe it was a twice a week publication, obviously printed since that's

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the only way it could be disseminated. The heterodox will voice. I do not remember when it started. I remember seeing it.

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And I know that this was a subject that would come up. And I found that very interesting. I think it was primarily

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an opinion of a paper as opposed to one that it had e.g. wire services that would convey information

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elsewhere around the country. That review did have wire services that was helpful, but mostly, I would say my news of

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the outside world came from the Wilmington papers and occasionally I would read the New York Times. So what was your awareness

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of student activism on campus? And you say it was behind your awareness of activism on other campuses across the country,

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but what were some of the issues going on here on the Delaware campus? Yeah. Okay.

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So the primary national issue that concerns students was the Vietnam War, issues of racism, sexism, and other matters that we're facing.

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Multiple segments of society. We're not anywhere close in importance to most students as the Vietnam War.

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There's one very obvious reason. We were all of age where we would be facing whether we're going to be in that war and being shipped overseas or not.

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This. So this was the one area of Akt activity, social activity. There were often rallies.

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This was a amines that I guess Today, plenty rallies, but they'd be posted on bulletin boards and on trees and in various organizations.

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The SDS was a big lump in student government also would schedule these rallies that have speakers and talk about the war. Along with the war was

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the issue that was brewing with mandatory ROTC Reserve officer training core. In my freshman year, there was mandatory ROTC.

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I think it was two years. I personally was extremely opposed to it. I actually refused to do two things that I was

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I went to my classes, but I would not do two things. I would not assemble and disassemble a rifle as we requested to do.

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And I would not drill. I found both of those very militaristic. And I was again opposed to the war. So I have made that clear.

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And it didn't do that. I received demerits, but I was not. Nothing more serious happened, although some students did

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have more serious outcomes. Now, this ties in my personal experience, but the general issue of ROTC ties in with

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what I mentioned a few minutes ago, which was the Bresler Myers affair to young professors, took a verbal public stance

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against mandatory or OTC and likewise against the war. The administration was unhappy with this and struggled for awhile.

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I don't know the internal workings of a struggle for awhile for what activity, what action to take, sanctions and take. And it brewed, and that

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really didn't help anybody. And by this winter and spring of 1968, it was quite heated up and many of the rallies

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were in support of these two professors. And there was much Students Support. Does it make sure they did not have any sanctions?

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I don t know the timeline exactly. It's I'm sure can be found in the review, et cetera. But ultimately the university decided

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not to renew their contracts. As might be expected. Further inflamed the student body. And that was the beginning

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of the University of Delaware really getting into the concept of protests and rallies and student awareness definitely went up a notch

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with those with that affair. You remember who organized some of those rallies? They were organized both with

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specific organized on Canvas groups such as the student government administration. Sga, but much more

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organized by either impromptu, impromptu groups or the SDS, which was in on-campus already and took this on as

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a project of great concern to them. You remember the name RACI see in relation to SGA and I don't know any of

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the other names with SDS such as George Wolfe? Yeah. I remember George and I remember Ray. Both both of these people were,

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neither of these people were more people that I certainly I didn't socially interact with them for no reason. They were older than me

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and I didn't know them, but I was well aware of their activities on campus. My recollection is that

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racy see in particular, I'm impressed me with his maturity. His, the depth of his commitment to is

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to the cause and George wall kind also. But just my Again, this is 50 some years ago. So that that isn't

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completely I don't have complete detailed recollection, but I do remember them both. I do remember their willingness

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to go out on limbs, jeopardizing their academic status. And that was it, a motivation to me and to others.

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I don't know. I can't quantify that. To really get into the get too deep

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into students asserting their feelings and their rights. So why were these rallies like, where did they take place and,

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you know, who attended them? Yeah. A favorite location. And I haven't been to

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the campus for a long time. But what was then the only Students Center? Long what we used to call, I guess East Campus where the Harrington and

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Gilbert Russell dorms where there was the I don't know what that building is called now, but on the back steps of it,

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which folk based on hiring from beach, they still call it a place Harrington Beach? Yes, they do. And Perkins Students Center, I believe is what you're talking about.

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Okay. So the batch deaths was a favorite place for rallies. I remember vividly being them.

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They were held at different times of the day. The ones in the evenings were better attended because people were in class. And the quantity of people

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varied greatly from Ravi to rally. From topic to topic. Again, mostly it was anti-war and pro pressers,

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Bresler and Myers, wrestling and Myers. But they were I can remember a vibe of excitement of meaningfulness that this was

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not to me a, a casual event. These were, these really were places where students could interact and share.

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Often there would be what was called an open mike. Again, a phrase I'm sure it still exists in which after

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the primary leaders who organized that would speak, others will speak. And I was at that time that I do recall

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that there would be speakers on other issues. The other issues would be rate racism. Universities view on black students and a black student organizations

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and the lack of Black students. I mean, I bet you, there wasn't 1% black students in 1968. Don't have is just click on that.

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It was extremely low. And that was a topic and the black student leaders would speak about that.

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Women's rights also generated some, some rally activity. Again, rarely where does the organization really was there a rally for that purpose,

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but the open mic allow people to speak on these things. The other area that slowly began to build on one that

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involved me as the years went by was the concept of in loco parentis. Up until my freshman year. This was the way of

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the world of the university. Basically, the concept was that the university stood in the shoes of our parents.

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They had more of they believe that moral responsibility for us and to guide us and to keep. Track and control of

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our social activities like our parents. Well, in those early rallies and 68, I remember that topic began to come up with that of course,

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was very, very popular topic and I'll get into that when it's ready, when you're ready. But again, I was actively involved in that.

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So can we go back to ROTC again? I was surprised that you were able to, as an individual, not participate in the gun assembly or the drills.

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Do you remember the walk off Institute instant instance for a RACI training field. And what was that about?

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And also we're Bresler and Myers supporting this anti-Nazi stuff. Is that part of their issues? Oh, yeah.

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They were again, they were they were liberal. They were anti-war and anti-war, anti RACI were pretty much want them the same perspective.

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And so yes, that was what the university was unhappy with them because of their anti-war, anti RACI stands.

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The walk off what occurred before my personal protest. And that might have, you know, gave me some feeling

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of of support because that had already happened. I was not involved in that. I don't know whether it wasn't my class.

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I don't remember. I get I don't remember seeing it. I knew about it pretty much immediately after it happened.

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And I think that's what emboldened me to add my own personal protests, which again, the walk off students Scott sank

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like one or two or more, were kicked off campus, I believe. Later reinstated. But when I did my little thing,

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I don't know what y again, I remember getting demerits because that was the way we were graded like we were in the military.

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And I got a slew of demerits, but that was all that happened to me. Do you remember having to discuss this with your parents?

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Did they understand the merits and your personal conviction? Again, my parents were very liberal people. My mother, who's 96 and

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still alive, is still there. I don't remember the specific conversation with I had I guess the best way to remember to say that

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they weren't angry and they weren't particularly Even upset. I guess that means they supported me. Did you have classmates that

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also took his personal actions? No, I don't remember that. I remember having a very close friend in the dorm that I already made us a friend by,

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by this point, who was on the other end of the political spectrum. He was not only an ROTC,

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but he was destined to become an officer, etc. And he stayed in even after it was no longer mandatory.

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And he and I had some some heated discussions with what not what I did invent the whole program, but there were nobody else that I remember.

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With my little eye really, it's harder. It's hard to picture how this occurred. I just remember sitting there at this long table with

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all these rifles and I said I'm not doing this. And the student officer said, we afterwards it will not.

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So what you're gonna get 152 merits or under or whatever the number was. I said. Okay, you give them to me. And then the March,

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I remember the marching and exercising, but remember about that is I put on this uniform for the first time. Besides it being unbelievably hot,

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an itchy because it was still the fall. I took this out there and we're carrying these weapons on our shoulders.

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This was I knew this was not was not from me regimen notation. First of all, of any kind was something that was difficult for me,

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let alone military regimen station. And I just stepped out of line. Again. Somebody approached me and said, you get back in line.

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Dahlgren. And I said I'm not doing this. I was fairly certain I'd be more seriously sanctioned and nothing ever happened.

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Were you already 18 and the fall of 1967 and registered for the draft? That's a good question. Let's see. My birthday September

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for the week school would have started. I was born in 49. So in 67. That was the year, I guess I turned 18. Right? Yeah.

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So I guess the answer is yes. So let's go to the spring of 1968. And I remember about the assassination of

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Martin Luther King on April 4th. What you know about him before then? And what was the reaction on campus? I knew about.

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I'm Dr. King. But what I guess most people that had any decent awareness of national politics knew

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that he was a major advocate of non-violent protest and for the purpose of increasing the rights of black Americans. I never had found myself in a situation

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where I ever had a debate or argue with anyone about his cause. Again, and my family was supported. And I don't know what else I could

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tell you about how I what I knew about about him. I was well aware of his speeches that he

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gave in DC in other places. I had not really read anything, but I was impressed. In many ways. I was well aware of the anti Martin,

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Dr. Martin Luther King feelings in the country. In the days of George Wallace who run for president and was a racist to the extreme.

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I remember his rhetoric against Dr. King. I remember the real heat mangers that would spread all kinds of stories 90% on true about Him.

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And I was horrified by that kind of thing that today is so common on the Internet. That kind of trolling, I guess they call it.

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But there was in those days, it was done through distributions. I remember a leaflet on the campus before the,

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before the assassination, a poorly cheaply printed leaflet, racist leaflets that had caricature of Martin Luther King with

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the looking very exaggerated African-American features and the whole list of stories about him, it was an ugly, ugly thing.

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I remember that the assassination and I, I certainly remember television was in full swing by 1967 and it was all over the TV news.

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I was kept very much on top of what was going on with the search for those killer and forth, what was going on the campus?

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I again have to say, I do not remember there being any massive activities on the campus. I know what went on in the City of

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Wilmington talking about that, but one of the campus, unless my recollection is not accurate, there everything was low

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key there yesterday or visuals? Again, which visual? Similar to a rally? A yes, but but nothing more.

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Nothing confrontational. But in the city, of course, I was well aware of Lublin, along with the National Guard.

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On campus, review reported that there was a day of conscience, sort of like a teach-in. Do you remember that? Assassination?

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I've got to say I remember it, but it was so locate it. It was in Many students minds. Horrible was is to say a day without

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classes and not much more. Now, I'm not going to, again, I won't quantify how many students took this seriously and how many didn't.

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But I don t think a casual observer walking through that campus on that day of a conscience arrows called it,

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would be impressed with the level of student outrage. So what was going on in Wilmington? Again with your parents

00:25:58.510 - 00:26:03.880

also living in Delaware, Where are you communicating with them that they have concerns about

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Wilmington that you were aware of? Yes. No. I live in the suburbs, not in the city, but in the late sixties,

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the city was still a place where people shopped, went to the movies. Governmental offices, of course.

00:26:21.970 - 00:26:32.610

There are still there. So the need to be in the city was knocked daily for my family, but there was a need.

00:26:32.610 - 00:26:43.460

There was time to go down there. The rioting took place in an area that I think called the Valley. This was geographically hardly a valley,

00:26:43.460 - 00:26:54.700

but it was the area where 95 was being constructed through the city between atoms and Jackson Street. And that area was

00:26:54.700 - 00:27:04.640

a low-income, heavily African-American neighborhood. In fact, there's a whole story there as to the choice of the root of the highway

00:27:04.640 - 00:27:14.180

through the city which went through that area rather than another quarter mile west where there was more affluent neighborhood.

00:27:14.180 - 00:27:24.830

But in any event, that's where the trouble emotionally erupted. I think. What occurred and when Lincoln was not a typical, not on typical.

00:27:24.830 - 00:27:32.960

And what was going on in other big cities where there was the word writing I guess has to be used

00:27:32.960 - 00:27:42.330

while there was protesting. That was largely was a lot of vandalism, tremendous amount of fires being set and police.

00:27:42.330 - 00:27:53.810

The fire department was unwilling to go in, which allow BCE sections of the city to burn both residential and kind of mom and pop stores.

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We had a family friend who had an electric supply curve balloon Electric Supply Company. David balloon, that was

00:28:03.650 - 00:28:11.630

a son of the owner and he was one of my classmates and friends and his store burned to the ground because the fire department

00:28:11.630 - 00:28:18.560

would not come in and get rocks thrown at him and whatever else was going on. It was very, very bad in Wilmington.

00:28:18.560 - 00:28:30.440

I don't remember how long it lasted. I know that it disrupted the Galton families lives marginally, but for sure and

00:28:30.440 - 00:28:40.610

then of course the lead made it really worse, was that even after things have calmed down, the governor would not take the National Guard out of

00:28:40.610 - 00:28:53.210

the city for forever. Cpt. So do you think University of Delaware students were aware of that political decision of

00:28:53.210 - 00:29:05.900

Governor Terry to keep the guard in Wilmington. The student body was largely in-state. More so than now as well.

00:29:05.900 - 00:29:14.180

I think there still are some regulations within the how that works now, but there was largely and state, so there's no doubt that

00:29:14.180 - 00:29:23.320

the student body was well aware of what was going on, you know, half an hour to the north in inner city.

00:29:23.320 - 00:29:37.190

How individuals how it impacted individuals? I don't know. I don't have a lot of recollection of conversations on that.

00:29:37.190 - 00:29:55.790

Again, I I'm attributing this to a, a surprising amount of apathy on the campus. I am certain that many students had family and friends that

00:29:55.790 - 00:30:06.640

were in the city on, but remember, this was occurring largely in a black neighborhood and the student population

00:30:06.640 - 00:30:17.570

was overwhelmingly white. And again, the fact that I was kinda aware of the specifics of that episode with the fire department not coming

00:30:17.570 - 00:30:25.650

in was because my friend, his father, owned a store. I don't know how many other students had that kind of

00:30:25.650 - 00:30:42.650

intimate relationship with anything going on in that area? It was. Do you think the students were interested in state politics because Terry was up for

00:30:42.650 - 00:30:52.340

re-election in the fall and was not re-elected. I'm wondering if there was awareness of the Wilmington occupation

00:30:52.340 - 00:31:01.610

in terms of students support or engagement with discussions about his election. National politics,

00:31:01.610 - 00:31:13.730

presidential election coming up in the fall of 68, degenerate up quite a bit of activity on the campus and have,

00:31:13.730 - 00:31:22.850

again, rallies and speakers came to the campus with regard to national politics. And state representatives

00:31:22.850 - 00:31:31.820

and senators also came. But I don't remember nearly the controversy of course, that was going on in the 68 election,

00:31:31.820 - 00:31:38.940

which got thrown into turmoil with the assassination of Robert Kennedy in the summer. But remember, in the summer

00:31:38.940 - 00:31:47.810

there was nobody on campus. Well, there was summer school, but at a minimum number of students. But as far as students thinking

00:31:47.810 - 00:31:59.060

about state politics, again, I think that it was an issue, it was discussed, but it wasn't anywhere near

00:31:59.060 - 00:32:14.500

as seemed as important as the national election. So what were you doing that summer? In the summer of 68?

00:32:14.500 - 00:32:25.130

I worked for Brandy Wine raceway. Long gone. I was a commissary Steward. Steward.

00:32:25.130 - 00:32:41.990

I worked in the daytime, unloading food from people that they bought the food from, and stocking refrigerators and et cetera.

00:32:41.990 - 00:32:50.630

And then distributing the food to the various parts of the race track from the fancy clubhouse restaurant

00:32:50.630 - 00:32:59.980

down to the snack stands. It was up on Neyman's road for those who don't have any idea what I'm talking about. It's where they're brand new wine

00:32:59.980 - 00:33:11.510

town center is now. And I was living at home. Are you seeing friends from college at that time?

00:33:11.850 - 00:33:19.330

Sure. I also was still seeing high school friends that have gone to other schools.

00:33:19.330 - 00:33:29.250

In fact, that's something that allows me to talk about the comparison. I had a very close friend who was at Swarthmore.

00:33:29.250 - 00:33:43.810

Again, not far away, but a very highly accredited liberal arts school. And he was deep into political consciousness at that point.

00:33:43.810 - 00:33:56.570

I remember in the summer many discussions with him where he was. That's what he wanted to talk about. That's what he wanted to talk to me about.

00:33:56.570 - 00:34:07.780

And it was a major part. Compare that to my, another very close friend who went to Duke and other highly acclaimed school,

00:34:07.780 - 00:34:18.840

but in the South. And while my friend Jeff was himself very politically active, he had little, little talk about

00:34:18.840 - 00:34:26.960

his campus because there was virtually nothing going on down there. But my friend Rich, who was at Swarthmore,

00:34:26.960 - 00:34:42.210

was retelling stories of a major confrontations on the campus over the war and racism and, and other issues.

00:34:42.280 - 00:34:59.510

So what do you remember about June 5th when Robert Kennedy was assassinated and e.g. did you enrich your friend, talk about that? I hadn't yes. I remember again,

00:34:59.510 - 00:35:03.850

remember that well, these are the these are the kinds of things that I'm going to stick in people's minds.

00:35:03.850 - 00:35:16.810

I'm old enough to remember the Kennedy assassination 5-4 or five years earlier. And the Kennedy assassination

00:35:16.810 - 00:35:33.540

did not seem to affect, did not seem to be in our minds, caused by the general areas of political division in the country,

00:35:33.540 - 00:35:47.660

primarily the war. This was a time when people talked about the generation gap in which conservativism was primarily

00:35:47.660 - 00:35:57.120

in the province of the older people and older to us of course, was in those days, probably 50 or so and older.

00:35:57.120 - 00:36:10.560

And liberalism was with younger people. Robert Kennedy had a strong appeal to young people. And so it was

00:36:10.560 - 00:36:15.740

particularly devastating to those who were supporting in the young people that I knew there were supporting.

00:36:15.740 - 00:36:25.720

But it wasn't an assassination that we related as we deal with Martin Luther King to it a national issue. Sir, on steroids,

00:36:25.720 - 00:36:36.680

I think had political motivation involving issues that were just not on the minds of most people. So I guess what I'm trying to say

00:36:36.680 - 00:36:46.880

and make this a little clearer. The discussions I had with my my my friend at Swarthmore and others. Not a reaction to what does

00:36:46.880 - 00:36:58.480

this mean to the world of racism or, or, or other issues that were bothering us already in the war. It, it meant we've lost a candidate that

00:36:58.480 - 00:37:11.490

very many of us had been supporting. And that was a tragedy to lose it. Any national leader in a presidential candidate?

00:37:12.700 - 00:37:25.740

Did you know anybody that went to Chicago for the National Democratic National Convention that summer? I was at that point in my life already

00:37:25.740 - 00:37:41.830

a pretty huge fan of the hippie movement. Jerry Rubin. And I'm drawing a blank on the other guy. It'll come to me.

00:37:41.830 - 00:37:54.940

I did not go and I don t think I know anybody that went, but I followed that mess very, very closely. And it was a terrible thing

00:37:54.940 - 00:38:06.420

for the Democratic Party in a country as a whole. They tell the televising of the police response to the student.

00:38:06.420 - 00:38:14.680

Barclays, student activists. Was right there. I was going to say any color or problems in black and white still.

00:38:14.680 - 00:38:25.000

But either way, people saw a very, another really energizing event. A 68 went on. That would make the campus

00:38:25.000 - 00:38:32.950

so much different by the time he went back in the fall of 68, different from what I've been describing in the spring semester and

00:38:32.950 - 00:38:49.520

68 convention and the police reaction was galvanized many otherwise, I'm on the fence.

00:38:49.520 - 00:38:58.470

Young people, people that I knew, people that I talked to start somewhere. And I remember also working at the race track.

00:38:58.470 - 00:39:09.290

The people that I worked for where let's say an odd crowd. They were itinerant people, men, all men that went from

00:39:09.290 - 00:39:22.970

track to track season to season with a harness racing circuit. And they were extremely conservative, very anti hippies.

00:39:22.970 - 00:39:41.780

And they we'd go on nonstop about long hairs. And the other terms used to describe the rising number of young people that were really alienated.

00:39:41.780 - 00:39:53.000

And I resolve that problem early on by pretty much keep my mouth shut. Be having discussions with them was fairly pointless.

00:39:53.000 - 00:39:59.490

They weren't well read their reasoning. They know they believe what they believe and they didn't really want to urinate.

00:39:59.490 - 00:40:09.830

Facts or counter-variable encounter a bouncing arguments. And I might have, my hair was growing along effects eventually grew very long,

00:40:09.830 - 00:40:16.640

and I took ruling from that. But as far as conversation with those people, I didn't. But this was the this was the

00:40:16.640 - 00:40:28.250

generation gap brought to a real point with the 68 Democratic convention. I was about to ask you about how

00:40:28.250 - 00:40:42.770

long you here was that time? Yeah. It was just starting to grow, but the time I graduated, it was down to my shoulders.

00:40:42.770 - 00:40:57.190

I had no comments, please. Very thick, wavy, brownish black hair, not particularly attractive by any objective judgment, I guess.

00:40:57.190 - 00:41:06.440

If you track them, this can be objective, but it was long and thick and atomic graduated. At this point, I was

00:41:06.440 - 00:41:16.190

just moving in that direction. So when you came back to campus in the fall of 1968, was Roxy still required at that point?

00:41:16.190 - 00:41:34.800

That's when they had a process of making it not mandatory that involve those of us that started in the fall of 67,

00:41:34.800 - 00:41:45.900

had to complete our first-year, but not have to do the second year. And I think there was no longer any freshmen coming in and 68,

00:41:45.900 - 00:41:58.510

I believe, did not have mandatory rots, so uterine remained as a voluntary course. Although as the years went by, the antagonism

00:41:58.510 - 00:42:08.890

against the military got to a point that it was Roxy was dropped from most campuses many campuses across the country.

00:42:08.890 - 00:42:23.730

I do not want to ask me. I don't know. When delaware eventually stopped with a military officer training course.

00:42:24.460 - 00:42:35.840

One of the other issues that had been protested was the curfew for women students. And I know that you got involved with the Residence Hall Association.

00:42:35.840 - 00:42:44.570

So can you talk about what was going on with the dorms and your involvement? Yeah. Yeah. So this was this was

00:42:44.570 - 00:42:53.030

the the movement generally associate with the concept of en loco parentis. I was a my dorm

00:42:53.030 - 00:43:02.420

President in beginning of my sophomore year in 68, and a year later became President of what was then

00:43:02.420 - 00:43:13.880

called the Residence Hall Association. Which was which dorm was that? I was in Gilbert see Hall building has been torn down.

00:43:13.880 - 00:43:18.110

Effect. Well, I think all the Gilbert complex was torn down.

00:43:18.110 - 00:43:34.220

Just a memory now. But I was I was the dorm President. And as a result of that, I was on the legislative body of presidents.

00:43:34.220 - 00:43:51.670

And this was a hot topic. When the change from women being locked down, basically at nine or 10:00 at night, to eventually turned into co-ed dorms,

00:43:51.670 - 00:44:05.810

which I believe did not begin until the very end of my time at Delaware. The process from women being locked down, no visitation of any kind

00:44:05.810 - 00:44:13.610

of no women allowed in men's dorm, no mental health or women's dorm. All of this incurred a change incrementally and I was

00:44:13.610 - 00:44:26.000

quite active in all of that. One of the first changes was the allowance of visitation for very limited periods of time

00:44:26.000 - 00:44:35.840

when when men could bring women into their rooms. But of course, the in loco parentis concept is still dominant.

00:44:35.840 - 00:44:47.490

And idea was you could not close your door. If you had a woman in your room. This is the early stages and they had more specific rules.

00:44:47.490 - 00:44:55.970

One rule was the famous 3 ft on the ground rule. Now I don't know if you're wondering what that is,

00:44:55.970 - 00:45:09.730

but I want to tell you what that was. At all times of the true people in the room. Three of the 4 ft, touching the ground. This was a way to avoid sexual activity,

00:45:09.730 - 00:45:19.150

at least in the eyes reminds of the administration. This was none of this was monitored that I ever recall.

00:45:19.150 - 00:45:26.260

By the way, a dorm dorm the RAs were supposed to. And the other rule was that, well, what does the door open?

00:45:26.260 - 00:45:33.170

The door open was interpreted by administration to mean the width, width of a standard

00:45:33.170 - 00:45:44.550

University of Delaware textbook. There's a subjective term. Years later when I became a lawyer, others, I think of this stuff and can't believe it.

00:45:44.550 - 00:45:55.660

There was nobody that can think through the absurdity of some of this stuff. So we all decided and Gilbert see, President, that the standard textbook

00:45:55.660 - 00:46:08.110

was the book on Delaware history. A paperback written by a very famous dog professor who taught history forever and ever.

00:46:08.110 - 00:46:15.470

John Monroe. Yes. And his book is very small. And so it became our standard textbook.

00:46:15.470 - 00:46:21.980

So we can close the door as long as you can slip his textbook in the middle. The next problem was,

00:46:21.980 - 00:46:34.640

is that of course you can't lock your door if the door was open. I had a engineering friend who took the metal plate where

00:46:34.640 - 00:46:48.740

the door locks against the jam to the metal shop, he rebuild it so that the dura could lock in an open position for

00:46:48.740 - 00:46:59.630

whatever he felt that complied with the role. And again, nobody seemed to care. So they see the attempt to impose moral values on the students

00:46:59.630 - 00:47:08.300

was pretty much laughable. Ultimately, we got into the more important issue or the woman's curfew which eventually

00:47:08.300 - 00:47:18.230

got eliminated. Men didn't have a perfect women did. That went down. Then the 24-hour open dorms,

00:47:18.230 - 00:47:25.790

I was that was later. We're past 68 now. So but I was at that point President of the AHA and I was very

00:47:25.790 - 00:47:33.950

involved in getting the faculty whatever the I can't think of a committee that control this, but I was very

00:47:33.950 - 00:47:43.850

active in getting them to vote in favor of 24-hour open dorms, lumping. I remember again, somebody stories are anecdotal,

00:47:43.850 - 00:47:54.500

but I think they're interesting. When the committee voted to permit 24-hour for dorms, one of the terms was was that

00:47:54.500 - 00:48:05.430

each dorm had to having written document indicating that they have voted. Majority of the students in that dorm wanted

00:48:05.430 - 00:48:17.900

open dorms and it had to include certain rules, minimal rules. I realized as all of the hullabaloo was going on over getting the thing

00:48:17.900 - 00:48:27.960

passed it no one really thought about what these documents would look up look like. So I one day on my own, typed up a form

00:48:27.960 - 00:48:42.770

with a blank space for the dorms name, a blank space for the vote, and then a boilerplate set of rules. And I then mimeograph did enough for one for

00:48:42.770 - 00:48:55.470

each dorm and had them distributed. I got an distributed. And then when the university announced that 24-hour open dorms were now

00:48:55.470 - 00:49:06.140

in effect as long as each dorm complied and showed his vote. Within hours, they were they were done, collected.

00:49:06.140 - 00:49:18.590

The administration was shocked and surprised that it had happened so fast. But that's the story I remember. So it sounds like this was

00:49:18.590 - 00:49:27.990

an important part of your experience at the University of Delaware to have that involvement and leadership on those changes?

00:49:28.360 - 00:49:37.670

Yeah, I was I was doing activist. I I consider myself, but again, I had long hair. I dressed kind of

00:49:37.670 - 00:49:48.620

like what used to be a hippie in those days. I wore my fathers. I thought it was in World War II, fought in France and he came

00:49:48.620 - 00:49:57.210

home with his overcoat. I don't know what it was in the name of the code and I probably should've been,

00:49:57.210 - 00:50:08.940

um, I used to wear that for some reason. Anti-war anti where people wore military jackets. I have no idea why we did that.

00:50:08.940 - 00:50:19.220

Some kind of visual protest. And I remember I used to wear that coat in all seasons was. But I never considered

00:50:19.220 - 00:50:31.280

myself the extreme left-wing. I think I roast a student leadership because I tried to maintain a more practical approach.

00:50:31.280 - 00:50:37.640

I knew that the in loco parentis was something we could really tackled and do something about, I don't know what we could do on the campus.

00:50:37.640 - 00:50:48.040

So against the war, there was lots of talk and rhetoric. So the work that I did, I also got involved in

00:50:48.040 - 00:50:56.570

student judicial system because I felt students needed and more say in how they were treated

00:50:56.570 - 00:51:09.500

when they were infractions. And I was a drafter of the first Student. Judicial constitutional under what we call it,

00:51:09.500 - 00:51:24.890

that gave students a lot of opportunity to judge themselves. Optimal point. The university has always maintained then appeal process as well.

00:51:24.890 - 00:51:38.810

But anyway, that's my activity was very much on campus student oriented as opposed to national issues. So I wonder if you have

00:51:38.810 - 00:51:50.510

any final thoughts about the significance of 1968 on your life. I think that kind of involvement is certainly one influence.

00:51:50.510 - 00:51:59.760

How do you remember that year in that time in your life? Yeah. I absolutely was a kind of reflection point.

00:51:59.760 - 00:52:17.340

Again, I I I came in liberal because of my family. I'm bringing my my experience with what was going on elsewhere.

00:52:17.860 - 00:52:29.120

E.g. leak in Chicago and on other campuses. Really bad. Then my feelings more and more to the left and the liberals,

00:52:29.120 - 00:52:39.110

and the liberal side. It's hard to separate 68 from 70, which was the year of the Kent State Massacre,

00:52:39.110 - 00:52:53.750

which was probably in my life the most significant event to affect me politically, morally would've ever. And that's how I've been ever since.

00:52:53.750 - 00:53:05.750

The campus provided me with an opportunity to make change. Again, not on issues as the war, on other issues of importance.

00:53:05.750 - 00:53:20.090

And unfortunately for all of us and maybe not all of this. But as life moves on, the two days of rock and roll and protesting

00:53:20.090 - 00:53:35.670

and all of that kind of fades, fades away. Real life interferes. I went to law school. Again. I had my long hair and I still gotten

00:53:35.670 - 00:53:43.560

arguments with professors about political issues, but I knew I had to crack down. You also remember in 68,

00:53:43.560 - 00:53:52.340

the economy was roaring. Jobs are everywhere. Students didn't care about. They didn't, they didn't fear

00:53:52.340 - 00:54:00.440

for what am I gonna do for a living. It was just a good time that that had changed in the early seventies. I knew that I had to do well in

00:54:00.440 - 00:54:12.410

law school and get myself and get a job. But politically, I, I've remained very much the same. I'm a liberal Democrat

00:54:12.410 - 00:54:28.310

and much of this goes back to my days in 68 and on the campus. So with the tumultuous events of 1968, and then you mentioned

00:54:28.310 - 00:54:38.780

Kent State incident in 1970. How did you feel those students were killed? Were you grieving? Were you angry? Was it just distrust?

00:54:38.780 - 00:54:48.420

Again, a generation gap? What, what was the impact of that? Grief and anger? In equal parts?

00:54:48.420 - 00:55:01.190

Greed for the fact that these four students that were killed were. Anywhere, nowhere near that kind of villain or evil person that

00:55:01.190 - 00:55:16.560

the conservative majority was trying to paint. Students. In fact, two of the students, I believe that were killed were

00:55:16.560 - 00:55:27.900

literally just walking by when the National Guard opened fire and they weren't even protesting peacefully. And the power of

00:55:27.900 - 00:55:40.430

the National Guard was horrified me. I'm the lack of training very vary. Of course. The grief that was unmeasurable mean

00:55:40.430 - 00:55:49.590

that there's this very famous picture which I'm sure you've seen of this 14-year-old girl who wasn't, wasn't a student.

00:55:49.590 - 00:56:00.320

Kneeling over the body of the dead, the dead student. That picture hit the press within 24 h and I remembered it then.

00:56:00.320 - 00:56:08.550

And I remember today I almost as if I was there actually, I went to I went to Kent State years later to see the place and,

00:56:08.550 - 00:56:18.800

you know, read a little bit there. It was a major a major turning point in my life. And I wish, I wish rate or

00:56:18.800 - 00:56:29.760

changing point in American politics overall. But it's a big cycle where we're back there again. In my opinion. You have children rich.

00:56:29.760 - 00:56:35.900

And did you ever talk to them about 1968 and this time in your life? Yes. I have two children,

00:56:35.900 - 00:56:44.370

a son and a daughter. And my son is 40 and my daughter is 37 next week. And is a general statement.

00:56:44.370 - 00:56:56.960

They plot politically. Very much. I am very, very liberal. Miranda, Anti Trump type of republicanism,

00:56:56.960 - 00:57:04.790

although not so much against the Republican Party. And I have talked often in, generally in the course of where

00:57:04.790 - 00:57:13.560

we are today. I'm relating it back to what was going on in the sixties probably they both went to University of Delaware also.

00:57:13.560 - 00:57:23.420

As did my daughter-in-law go Delaware. I did my father, as did my uncle and aunt, and as did one of my three sisters.

00:57:23.420 - 00:57:37.310

So we get a big golfer family very closely involved with alumni, involve on alumni activities anyway. So yes. I have talked to them quite frequently

00:57:37.310 - 00:57:50.360

about what life was like Dan, and what the political tribalism was like. Again, there it was as always conservative versus liberal,

00:57:50.360 - 00:58:02.340

but it was more an age, an age thing. The world hasn't changed that much and I've talked to them about it. Unfortunately. I need to do much.

00:58:03.220 - 00:58:09.800

I want to thank you for talking with us today, and I appreciate your participation in this project.

00:58:09.800 - 00:58:12.480

I'm going to stop the recording now.