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Okay. This is Rebecca Johnson Melvin. And today is January 21, 2019, and today is Martin Luther King Day,

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which is an interesting coincidence. This is a recording for the voices of 1980s 1968 Oral History Project. Today I am talking to your name.

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Stephen LH. Great. So thanks for being with us. And as we've talked, we're looking for stories of

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Delaware ends in 1968. So can you give us some background about where you were and what brought

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you up to 1968. Where are you from? Well, yeah, I'm original Delaware in my family's been here for hundreds of years.

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And that's on both sides. I grew up in Richardson park. And Richardson Park is right across from

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the southern city limits of Wilmington. So basically it's Wilmington. Went to Conrad high school. And what year did you graduate?

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1962. And took a year off to decide what I wanted to do, whether to go into the service

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or to go to college. And I had actually decided to go to college because I use that year to

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save up money to go to college. Did cost as much then as it does now. So I matriculated into Wesley College in 1963.

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A memorable here because I remember where I was when Kennedy was assassinated. It's where it was. And I there for

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a little bit about five semesters, I guess. And I was in the process of transferring to the University of Delaware and I lost my my draft deferment status.

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And they snap me up very quickly in 1966 or 66, reported for the draft on July 6, 1966 and went through the various trainings,

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the various bases all in the South, Fort Bragg, for Jackson, for Gordon, ultimately for Campbell.

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And when I got there, the GI says, Oh, you just joining the unit. And I said, Yeah, it does it. Oh, great. We leave for Vietnam in two weeks.

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I said, whoa, you know, because you're supposed to get a little leave before you go to Vietnam. So I went to my commanding officer at

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the time he he wrote me out to leave and I came home for about a week really. And when I got back,

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I reported to the armory building there on tenth and DuPont street, Wilmington and went through all the all the things

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that ultimately took me to Vietnam. Was that over a period of two years or Yeah. It was a period of two years though for me. Yeah. Yeah.

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It's a draft d If you were a regular army, would be a three-year hitch. But for me it was two years, which I didn't serve two years,

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but I'll explain that later. And what branch and unit Raven? I was at that point, I was with a 20th transportation unit

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and they were stationed at Fort Campbell, Kentucky. And they went over as an entire unit to Vietnam.

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We flew to Oakland and boarded a troop ship and took that slow boat to China. It was an exciting trip. It really was.

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During that trip, I took one book with me and that was catch-22. And I said, Well, this this is wild.

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None of this happens. Well, it turned out that most of it did. When I got to Vietnam. There were characters in the book

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that were liked, the ones that I knew. But it was an amazing trip. We started out in the storm. I got terribly sea

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sick as did a lot of the GIs. Because the ship would go like this. At the same time it would go like this. They may be pretty sick,

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but then the water is calm down. And some things that I saw C were just absolutely amazing. First of all, at nighttime

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when there was no clouds in the sky, you can see everything up there. There were zillions and zillions of stars and they see the Milky Way.

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And we came through the Philippines, was very peaceful there. And you actually sit on the side of the ship and look down and see

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all the jellyfish and the flying fish that came out of the water and informations. And on the loudspeakers they were playing Hawaiian music.

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And it was really kind of peaceful. Then I looked up in the sky and saw this, this huge squandered a B52 is coming back. There must have been a dozen of them.

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And of course we had a little bit of shore leave and the Philippines. So big bay.

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And then from there, we went to Vietnam and there were three stops. And my stop was the last one are stopped.

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And I remember that we stopped at volatile, which was the port there. And it was driving rain. And we disembarked on

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the side of the ship onto a raft and then from there onto a landing craft. And we got into the landing craft

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and the range is pouring down. And the guy who is driving the landing craft actually got stuck on the sambar.

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And he worked his way off of it. And we came into the beach. They're bumped out and just like in the movies,

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landing craft comes up, the door, drops down, you know, and you expect to be hit by handled boards or something.

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But always saw was this lady walking in crust. So it was quite got off dripping wet. And were taken to an airplane.

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It was a C13, I think. We all were piled into the airplane, all standing up, standing up and took off. We were standing up.

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Took the short flight to concentrate, which is outside of Saigon. All standing up, landed standing up. And then we were loaded on

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trucks on a convoy. And we end this was in March of 67. I'm sorry, May of 67, we board the ships at an April 67.

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The trip across the ocean took about a month. We got on in country in May. But from from Saigon, we went by truck convoy

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to a place called QCI. And QCI was in war zone D. On one side. As we were coming in, we saw this guy hung.

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This is what we're coming up against. As a matter of fact, a few years later, many years later from a soldier or no, it was a Vietnamese guy and I learned

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from a book later on who that person was. A book called The tunnels of Pucci. I learned that he was a barber who had been caught.

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He was a spy basically, and he was caught. And so they lynched him. On the other side of Kushi. You could watch the, the,

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the jungle just kinda rolled back. Because of Agent Orange. They defoliated the foliage. And here's a picture, need Gucci.

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This is me standing out in front of my hooch, looking all ready for war and all that sort of thing. But that was taken.

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How old were you then? 66. I was 23. And so I served there and QCI until about August of 67.

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Then I got lucky because he Kushi, you know, there there was a war going on. I mean, I wasn't directly involved because I was I

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was my my MOS was O5, C120, which means that I was in the communications. I think I did.

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Well, one of the things that I did there was to sit in a bunker. At nighttime, waiting for an alert that rockets were coming in.

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Rockets or mortars are coming in at night because that's mostly where the action was happening. It was at night.

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And then I had to alert the troops the first where the officers and they were done separately because they were in air condition barracks

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and didn't hear the siren, which I hit Next to alert everyone else. When Sire when offered by headed to the bunkers,

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I did other things there, switchboards stuff, working, telephone calls, stringing wire, whatever. But then in about August I got real

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lucky and I was transferred to tau. Tau was the in-country RNR spot. It's right there on the coast of the South China Sea,

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due, due east of Saigon. And it was, it was really built up. Everyone was there. The Americans were there,

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the Australians were there. The Republic of Korea was there. It was like and it was like since city I mean,

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anything you wanted you could get involved. So I was there for the rest of the war. Everything was kinda peaceful, kind of wild, you know.

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I was your responsibilities there is the same. I was in combo with the 388 transportation company.

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And what these companies did as well as the 20th transportation and Kushi, what they would do was if there was an aircraft down,

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shut it down, or crashed, a team would go into recovery. There would be a shared doc which was a heavy-duty helicopter with my two rotors on

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either side and a team which would be in Healy small chopper. And they would go into where this craft was and they would be landed.

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They would rig up the chopper, the the Chautauqua take it up and they would take it back to base to be repaired if possible or salvaged.

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And that's what we did. I was in the communications part of that company. And again, we did a number of things, but at home town

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to the main things that I did that I remember was to sit in what's called an angry 47. It was it was a unit with

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radios and then teletype. And I would stay up at night and enter in basically codes for equipment, parts for aircraft.

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And I would just do that and type them in on chat tape, like the old ticker tape. And I'd run that, make that tape.

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And then I run the tape through a machine. They would send it off to Saigon, I think, to order the parts. The other part of what I

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remember is that every now and then, these baby carriers would come in from across the ocean and they'd have aircraft on them, mostly helicopters, ui's.

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And I would go out with a unit as the ship to shore communications with a small radiopaque. And they would go on the ships, each helicopter and they had to take

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their preservative out of the engines, fuel them, and put the rotor blades on and then they fly him off.

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And that's took a few days to do that. So I was part of that duty. And then there are other things you like stringing wire

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and just hanging out basically. So that's what I did. Wrong towel officially. Unofficially, I remained stone.

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The console in bunk towers are in Vietnam was very good. Console. Make you boo. Boo could think about

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where that's where it's meeting, make you very high and make it a little crazy. So I smoked a lot of pot there.

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Had you ever smoked pot before you went to Vietnam? A little bit. Actually, the first time I got hired was

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a Gordon Georgia late 66. Couple of my buddies, one of my buddies on leave brought some back from Philadelphia.

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That was an experience. So so everything was gone smoothly until January of 1968. And that's when a tech came along.

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Of course, everywhere in the country. Ted effect was there was the offensive was experienced. In fact, one of the reasons I was very lucky

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leaving Pucci was cute. She was hit very hard during the Tet Offensive. I mean, there's leveled because you see QCI.

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We had realized it, but there were tunnels underneath of us. It was like there was like a Viet Cong base right underneath of us all.

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And when tech came along the account level basically with rockets and stuff, I was glad I wasn't there.

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But it bumped out. Yeah, we were hit with some action from the Tet Offensive. And what I remember is

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that the alert came and we were supposed to hit whatever shelter was closest to us. And I ended up in a barracks.

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Cbs, Navy CBs. And I was stuck there until I saw my supply sergeant go blindness as a sergeant

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even kept me out of here. So he says, Okay, you know, and he got me out of there. At that point, you see,

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everybody was requisitioned a weapon. And when I got to the supply room, all the weapons had been handed out except for 45 automatic,

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which I had to take. So that changed things a little bit. But then after a little while in February and I've seen I

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was slated to leave in April because that was the year. In February of my requests for RR came through.

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I had waited and hoped that they would open up Australia. So I ended up going to Australia in February of 1968.

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And I was there for a week is great. You know, Australia was Sydney. And what struck me about it was two things. One is the traffic,

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instead of looking over one shoulder to see if the cars are coming, you had to look over the other shoulder. Right?

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And and also it reminded me a lot of the 1940s in the United States. It was sort of had that feel to it. And so I spent a week or two.

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I can't remember. They're in Australia. And I came back and the plane came into Vietnam lands that had

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Thompson who was sitting there waiting for an airplane to take me too long town. And I see this guy who's very

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familiar walk across the tarmac. And that was built, Frank. Wow. Okay.

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And go frack actually wrote about me. I made front-page below the fold. But he also mentions in his book bill French, Delaware.

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And say this was in the news journal. News journal, but he only made a quick response to adhere. And he said, one day in

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February 1968 and a place called boomtown. I was walking across its airport. We mistaken there was Thomson knew it I was going to boom town.

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And he goes on and says, I heard a voice loud and clear. Hello, Wilmington. Actually, I said hello Bill Frank.

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For journalistic reasons, you don't want to point to him. So he goes on to say, it came from someone in a bunch of

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GIs lowly about the ground with their defiled bags. I looked hard for the person who was calling. But once more, even louder than before,

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came a bill frack. And then stood up spec for Stephen Jay leech juniors. Richardson part graduate

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from Conrad high school, Wesley College and Dover. And when we met a radio operator with your 3D transportation battalion,

00:21:03.110 - 00:21:15.510

That's actually a company at Vogue tau. And you can bet I chew the fat with him, photographed him and thanked him for having recognized me from way back.

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That was referencing did it in there. So if I look in the news journal, would I be able to oh, yeah. Yeah.

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It's somewhere in the month of February. I'm not sure exactly, but yes. And includes the photograph he took of me. Great.

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You run into other Delaware EMs and the period when you were overseas? Well, when I was drafted as drafted with bunch of Delaware,

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I don't remember that. I actually ran into any I I briefly ran into my cousin who was there. He was in the engineers.

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He was the son of my mother's sister, named Wilbur Gregory. Gregory, he was an officer and we briefly had a chat on the telephone.

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He ever actually met, but I knew him from before. But none that I can remember accept him. My best friend over there,

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it was involved towel was a Native American by the name of playing feather. There was one character who was

00:22:43.100 - 00:22:52.770

like a character from catch-22. His name was Louis Louis J. Carlo. The only person who took

00:22:52.770 - 00:23:11.970

LSD in Vietnam that I can remember. What was the awareness of the Tet Offensive at the time? How did that affect fear or morale?

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Oh, yeah. There was a there was a marked difference that I experienced more use of opiates.

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Afterwards, I noticed that some GIs would actually find some of this black heroin that they would put it on the Edge ended ends of their cigarettes.

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I was pretty rough. And then there was, there was a morale problem there. The people began to realize that,

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at least my experience that things weren't right here. In fact, speaking of opiates, I'll show you this other picture here.

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That's from my model about in fact, a lot of the things that happened to Vietnam or India here, but there's a fictional aspect as well.

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But that's me right there. Okay. And the story behind that is one of my other duties was seaweed. We had all these women,

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you would come in and clean the toilets and shine your shoes and then take your laundry overnight and come back

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the next day with cleaning laundry. And that's what we were sitting on here. And in this particular picture, I was waiting for a truck,

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a small truck to come by to be brought by so that I could drive them outside outside of the base. And so that's me. I'm sitting with them.

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This one here you can see her. She was just kind of like a girlfriend at the time. But I knew all these women

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and I was waiting for for that truck. Now the thing about this is that I had gone downtown a little earlier that day and visited the opium den.

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So smoking opium and usually put pop Assad after a set things up for you and you smoke the opium, he would give you a joint.

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And we would sit out on his porch and smoke pot together very, very high. And I had just come back from that experience.

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So in this particular picture, I was in heaven. I mean, it was a warm, the sun was coming down.

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I was surrounded by all these women, you know, and, and I just remember it is very memorable. Well, the picture came to me.

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Maybe several weeks later, this guy had never saw before. He stops by the comma shaped like a picture you oh, yeah.

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It says yeah. And he handed me this picture. And I never saw him again. So that's how that picture came into existence.

00:26:15.640 - 00:26:34.070

Yeah. But you came home in April? I came home in April. I actually again from bone towel, we were flown to our I was close.

00:26:34.070 - 00:26:43.770

I was reading. My tour of duty, had left, flown to Thompson who was waiting for the big players,

00:26:43.770 - 00:26:56.270

the big Silverberg, to take us back to the world. I was sitting in their little area, it was the shed.

00:26:56.270 - 00:27:10.280

And because I had come over with a unit, the 20th transform Kushi, there there were a number of GIs who I didn't know him.

00:27:10.280 - 00:27:16.390

I mean, they were familiar to me from the 20th transportation at Gucci were coming down with the same time because we

00:27:16.390 - 00:27:23.320

came over at the same time. I remember this one. Gi he was pissed. He was so mad.

00:27:23.320 - 00:27:33.680

He was livid. And the reason he was livid was before he was his tour of duty was up. He had gone into Cambodia,

00:27:33.680 - 00:27:45.940

get an airplane, him and some others. And that's when we weren't supposed to be in Cambodia. But this aircraft was downed in Cambodia.

00:27:45.940 - 00:27:57.740

And so they had to go in and get it. So they went in to get it. And as they were coming down to get the aircraft, they were ambushed.

00:27:57.740 - 00:28:05.360

And they were ambushed and no one could help them because we weren't supposed to be there. And he was pissed

00:28:05.360 - 00:28:12.410

because they didn't come and get them. They had to fight their way out or at least hold their ground until someone decided, Yeah,

00:28:12.410 - 00:28:19.100

well, since someone in, you know, or have a surreptitious airstrike or whatever they did.

00:28:19.100 - 00:28:28.730

I can't remember, but he was really angry. And I can see from that experience how some of the Vietnam veterans struggled

00:28:28.730 - 00:28:38.990

after the war with PTSD. And so I do remember that. And the other thing I remember is listening to Armed Forces Radio and hearing

00:28:38.990 - 00:28:46.790

about the riots after the king assassination. Of course the king assassination in the riots, there were naming off the city's,

00:28:46.790 - 00:28:57.330

wow, and one of them was Wilmington. So what I got back to reach some Park which is right outside of Wilmington,

00:28:57.330 - 00:29:09.620

I could stand in the backyard with my family. So let's see the smoke coming up. So that was the was the April 4th is when King

00:29:09.620 - 00:29:23.000

was assassinated and well, April April couple of days? Yeah. A couple of days after that? Yeah. So you where did you fly home to?

00:29:23.000 - 00:29:31.840

Did you go to San Francisco and San Francisco and then call it a trip across the country to Philadelphia.

00:29:31.840 - 00:29:42.130

It's interesting about that trip from Vietnam to San Francisco. We stopped in Japan briefly. And I remember getting off

00:29:42.130 - 00:29:51.060

the plane and it was real fog. I would've thought it was a dream except I bought a cigarette lighter there,

00:29:51.060 - 00:29:59.230

which I still have somewhere. But from that point on to the time we got to San Francisco, I don't remember anything.

00:29:59.230 - 00:30:07.210

Now, your monitor just went off here? Okay. I don't remember anything. Was just like black hole.

00:30:07.210 - 00:30:20.240

I remember, you know, the sending out of out of Japan and landing in San Francisco. It's like it like that. But yes.

00:30:20.240 - 00:30:32.920

And I remember my father meeting me when the airplane landed in Philadelphia and he told me home and really the only service men

00:30:32.920 - 00:30:41.030

on the plane or are you traveling with regular commercial regularly from San Francisco? You have regular commercial.

00:30:41.030 - 00:30:49.510

I think we know it the plane went to Los Angeles, right? Okay. I forget desert lie. It went from San Francisco to

00:30:49.510 - 00:30:57.100

Los Angeles because when I got the Los Angeles, I called my cousin who at that time lived in somewhere

00:30:57.100 - 00:31:06.320

in Orange County and talked to her for a few minutes, then call it the plane from Los Angeles to Philadelphia.

00:31:06.330 - 00:31:14.710

And I don't remember anything about that either. Yeah. Yeah. You must have been exhausted. Evidently. Yeah, evidently.

00:31:14.710 - 00:31:26.270

So what was it like to come home? It was a relief. You'd begin bringing back memories. Now, few days after I came home,

00:31:26.310 - 00:31:34.660

someone was murdered about a half a block away or some Park. I remember seeing him in the ambulance because he

00:31:34.660 - 00:31:44.900

had those old Cadillac ambulances with a Windows. I remember seeing him white as a sheet being taken away knows a week afterwards.

00:31:45.030 - 00:31:56.140

And I tried to resume my life. I like to go to movies. I remember going to a movie in Wilmington during

00:31:56.140 - 00:32:03.310

the occupation and coming out of the movie like the old days waiting for the bus, right. Which never came.

00:32:03.310 - 00:32:08.490

Because there was a curfew? Yes. I remember having to call my father and say, Look, I can't get home.

00:32:08.490 - 00:32:18.220

Yeah. So he came and got me. I remember the troops in the street and Wilmington. They kind of amused me

00:32:18.220 - 00:32:26.550

because here they were, it seemed to me like they were not going quite real. I mean, as far as, you know.

00:32:26.550 - 00:32:35.740

You think you're a soldier, you know? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I came back from a real-world, but eventually

00:32:35.740 - 00:32:50.450

the chickens came home to roost. And I can start drawing parallels between the way the Vietnamese were treated, the way of African Americans were treated.

00:32:50.450 - 00:33:01.670

Because they're both on the wrong end of the guns. Because you see the way the war was sustained in

00:33:01.670 - 00:33:16.890

Vietnam was that the, the Vietnamese were not respected at all. I mean, they were referred to by racial slurs.

00:33:16.960 - 00:33:32.720

And of course, you know, everyone, you know, could be anatomy, you know, a person. And I realized, you know,

00:33:32.720 - 00:33:48.000

the parallels between the Vietnamese and the African Americans. That slowly enlightened me. It led to a slow motion epiphany.

00:33:49.150 - 00:33:58.970

So can you talk about the neighborhood where you grew up and Wilmington in general in terms of your racial awareness

00:33:58.970 - 00:34:10.760

of neighbors or classmates or yeah, Wilmington was was well, breaches some part was all white. It was, you know, if you were black,

00:34:10.760 - 00:34:23.150

you didn't walk through Richardson part? I didn't have black friends until Conrad and they weren't really friends. I mean, I knew people who were black.

00:34:23.150 - 00:34:36.360

That's where I met Teddy Henry, attorney and the common metals because he was a classmate. And even my other neighborhood

00:34:36.360 - 00:34:45.950

see because my parents were split up, they split up in 57. After a period of hospitalization. I lived with my grandmother,

00:34:45.950 - 00:35:02.450

Wilmington on Bain or Boulevard, and they had a store at 34th in Washington. And the area around the store was all white, predominantly Jewish.

00:35:02.450 - 00:35:09.210

There were a couple of synagogues in that neighborhood, and one, I think it's two of them are still there.

00:35:09.790 - 00:35:23.660

But eventually the neighborhood changed because you see in Wilmington. Throughout the sixties, there was the growth of the suburbs.

00:35:23.660 - 00:35:42.580

And these were new neighborhoods that white people went to. And the city became subjected to black urban diaspora.

00:35:42.580 - 00:35:53.710

Where black people were in Wilmington mainly lived on the East side and south bridge. And after the riots, Folks moved down.

00:35:53.710 - 00:36:04.430

Except for working class ethnic neighborhoods. We'd like Brown Town and hedge fill and what we call Little Italy.

00:36:04.430 - 00:36:16.770

And it was among those neighborhoods that were being encroached upon by this inner diaspora, which was brought on

00:36:16.770 - 00:36:33.950

actually by the Popper street, a project in 1961 or thereabouts, the east side of Wilmington was torn down. From Popper street.

00:36:33.950 - 00:36:42.800

Actually before that, from a from a French street to Spruce Street, from nice street, the fourth street torn down.

00:36:42.800 - 00:36:50.300

This is where this was, this was the black neighborhood. As a result, a lot of these families had to find

00:36:50.300 - 00:37:03.030

other places to live in Wilmington. And at the same time was this white flight from Wellington into these new neighborhoods

00:37:03.030 - 00:37:12.960

that were springing up. What was the area torn down for? It was their new building or construction. Robert Moses.

00:37:12.960 - 00:37:27.310

It was that whole fad of urban renewal that folks in well-maintained called Negro removal. And that was, that was

00:37:27.310 - 00:37:40.240

the reason it destroyed the city. The other thing that destroyed the city was I95, which meant that the block between atoms and

00:37:40.240 - 00:37:49.420

Jackson Street was torn down to make the right-of-way there. And it created a barrier, kind of an invisible barrier between

00:37:49.420 - 00:37:57.600

black folk who were moving into the west side and Little Italy. Which was on the other side, the west side of I95.

00:37:57.600 - 00:38:11.190

And there's a lot of tension growing there. It's a matter of fact, I can refer a book written by someone who I admire greatly. Historian by the name of Carol Hofstadter,

00:38:11.190 - 00:38:19.080

wrote a book called the capital city or something like that, which she explains it very well. You know, the process

00:38:19.080 - 00:38:33.320

here because I didn't see this firsthand because I was either in Dover College or in the army. But she explains it quite quite accurately.

00:38:33.320 - 00:38:43.900

So in my locals in the neighborhood around my elbow store at 34th and Washington, he went through a lot of difficulties there.

00:38:43.900 - 00:38:56.330

Well, is your uncle's name Frank gas or Franklin gas or gas. There's pharmacy and then there was a gaseous market which was behind it.

00:38:56.330 - 00:39:04.700

That was my uncle job, but he had passed away in 68. I lost two uncles and 68, Uncle John and uncle edit.

00:39:04.700 - 00:39:20.200

And the three boys, Michael Frank was the only one left. What were the difficulties for the store? Well, the neighborhood began to change and

00:39:20.450 - 00:39:37.410

he his store was quite an open kind of place, that glass windows. And the merchandise was out on the floor.

00:39:37.410 - 00:39:46.080

And Isles and then a couple of Isles there. There was a soda fountain there. In fact, my first job was as a soda jerk there.

00:39:46.080 - 00:39:59.510

But as time went on, these new students who are Moving and gradually moving into the neighborhood would steal,

00:39:59.510 - 00:40:08.580

shoplift, break the windows. He had to replace the windows a couple of times. And he actually changed

00:40:08.580 - 00:40:17.160

his hours so that the store would be closed when school that out instead of lunchtime, which was a little bit earlier. So he kinda shifted his hours over

00:40:17.160 - 00:40:24.980

so that the store would be closed and kids would flood in there and steal stuff like that. That's cool. That's in that area?

00:40:24.980 - 00:40:38.910

Yes, Dupont. And eventually close the store in 1973 after my grandmother died. Some other things going on

00:40:38.910 - 00:40:53.580

that are not pertinent. So so yeah, I changed it on there. What was your awareness of youth gangs and Wilmington when you were growing up

00:40:53.580 - 00:41:04.200

and when you came back from Vietnam? Well, the only gangs that I knew about where like when I was living in Richardson Park in the late fifties,

00:41:04.200 - 00:41:13.920

there were a number of gags and there was named after neighborhoods. The two toughest ones were the Madison street gang.

00:41:13.920 - 00:41:23.170

And at that time, Madison's street was the people that live there in the late 50s where families of ship workers

00:41:23.750 - 00:41:36.560

and they lived in poor whites, working class whites. The other tough gang was the McCardell gang. Same sort of folks.

00:41:36.560 - 00:41:46.860

And of course there was the Richardson part gang. And I was there wasn't really kinda organizes does

00:41:46.860 - 00:41:55.350

a bunch of guys, you know. And actually I was kind of a junior member of the Richardson part gang,

00:41:55.350 - 00:42:05.440

had a leather jacket and I had a switch blade knife. And we did go on a rumble wants. But imagine nothing.

00:42:05.480 - 00:42:14.730

What was that like? Well, what happened was me and my friend Tommy. We were up at the railroad tracks.

00:42:14.730 - 00:42:22.020

These tracks they cross Maryland Avenue by can be parked. And back then there were a lot more active because of freight would

00:42:22.020 - 00:42:30.740

be taken to the GM plant so that the trains were pretty regular. And so what we were doing was we were up there hopping trains,

00:42:30.740 - 00:42:39.030

wait for the train to come along and maybe take a little ride. And we were sitting in at the tracks, wait for the train.

00:42:39.030 - 00:42:54.990

Mse Gang boys came along and challenged us. They had BB guns. And a little bit of a fight ensued. And I got to I got to black, I think.

00:42:54.990 - 00:43:04.200

Anyway, after it was all over, we fled because there were more of them than us. We went to one of the houses

00:43:04.200 - 00:43:11.760

and Richardson park there on the South DuPont road. And a lot of the other guys were in there playing

00:43:11.760 - 00:43:21.550

cards with Tommy and I walked in. I think what the heck happened to you? We told them that we were jumped up on the tracks. Alright, well.

00:43:21.550 - 00:43:27.780

Sounds like it was the brown town game to me because that's the closest neighborhood or hedge fill or sometimes.

00:43:27.780 - 00:43:38.560

So we all got together with sticks and stones and headed on down to Brown Town. Ready? Ready for that? Of course, we didn't find any ones.

00:43:38.560 - 00:43:45.700

So we've turned her back. Yeah. But those are the only gangs that I remember and, you know, I mean,

00:43:45.700 - 00:43:55.350

we didn't name ourselves out of out of anything or where colors or anything like that. Or what was your understanding of

00:43:55.350 - 00:44:03.510

what was going on with gangs around April 19? I had no idea that there were any gangs. I didn't know about it until I started talking to others.

00:44:03.510 - 00:44:12.780

I didn't know we act or anything until I fell in with a lot of the radicals at the university where I eventually was able to

00:44:12.780 - 00:44:20.280

matriculate the summer of 68, went to summer school here. I've ever one class that I took it, it was memorable because

00:44:20.280 - 00:44:38.550

the professor was Ernest Che boy. He was, I think he was Emeritus. He came in to teach some summer courses and subject English literature,

00:44:38.550 - 00:44:49.320

American literature. I'm sorry, because I remember that we read some Henry James. I remember actually impressing him with

00:44:49.320 - 00:45:00.000

some idea that I had about a story that James had written called a lion. I think he was a lovely man. And I also learned later

00:45:00.000 - 00:45:13.800

that he did some research on post visit to New York, which is upstairs. I could find it for you. But anyway, I, I,

00:45:13.800 - 00:45:26.570

I was accepted to the university and I fell in with a radicals thanks to a fellow by the name of Charles pre-B,

00:45:26.570 - 00:45:41.080

who I had known the late 50s, early 60s. Because in spite of being a sort of a not a juvenile delinquent, but someone around with the guys.

00:45:41.080 - 00:45:50.610

I was also a Boy Scout. And also what the church go figure. Where did you go to church? St.

00:45:50.610 - 00:46:01.380

James and new art, Newport. And Charlie previous father was the minister there at the time. I was interested in

00:46:01.380 - 00:46:18.930

I started to get interested in politics. And Charlie and I talked politics. And the politics that I became interested in was socialism.

00:46:18.930 - 00:46:28.880

Communism. My father used to bring home a magazines, one of which was the USSR Magazine, later became Soviet life or something.

00:46:28.880 - 00:46:43.950

So I became interested in that and I would talk to these things about talk to Charlie about these things. And then after I

00:46:43.950 - 00:46:55.660

was drafted and all that other stuff like that I've just talked about. And I came back to the university. I ran into Charlie again and student here.

00:46:55.660 - 00:47:05.790

He was a student at the University at the time. I think he was. And he knew all the people who are

00:47:05.790 - 00:47:16.380

radicals here at the time. He introduced me. Or he introduced me to the crowd that consisted of people like Phil Banach-Tarski,

00:47:16.380 - 00:47:28.340

George Wolfe, kind of art Agnes and number of others. And so I fell in with them and felt very good.

00:47:28.340 - 00:47:37.750

People who finally sort of thought and felt like I did. Plus they were all freaks. These two were these buttons on,

00:47:37.750 - 00:47:51.060

on campus with the words FOR see, Fock. But it's really stood for freak on campus. And these were all the youngsters who were experimenting

00:47:51.060 - 00:47:59.820

with with that specific to Delaware or was that a nationwide? I've never seen it before, so it might have been, you know.

00:47:59.820 - 00:48:07.290

And of course, the heterodox school voice, I remember the header and reading the heterodox school boys. Actually the first place I

00:48:07.290 - 00:48:18.630

visited after I got back here, before I came down here to the university, was a little head shop up in Wilmington called the underground shop or something.

00:48:18.630 - 00:48:28.470

And it was there that I bought my first rolling papers and stuff like that. And it was there that I saw the heterodox go voice for sale.

00:48:28.470 - 00:48:36.030

So I think I bought my first copy there, maybe May 68. And then when it came to the university, I ran it on everybody who

00:48:36.030 - 00:48:49.410

was Where did you get pot front at the time? Brooklyn. Had to go get it. Well, one of my friends what one of

00:48:49.410 - 00:49:02.820

my army buddies at bumped out. What was his name? Last name was made to us. Lived in Brooklyn, is a Latin guy and Carlos Carlos may

00:49:02.820 - 00:49:19.310

tos I think is his name. So when I went up and visited him and I scored by first pot there in Brooklyn. But I couldn't square anyone,

00:49:19.310 - 00:49:26.940

any here until I fell in with all these folks here at the university, I could get it all over. I can tell you there are

00:49:26.940 - 00:49:36.010

some famous people from whom I scored. Were your friends in the Canvas interested in your experiences in Vietnam? Did they ask you about?

00:49:36.010 - 00:49:47.750

No. Actually, they thought I was a CIA agent because here's the thing. When you're in the army, right? There are certain things you hunger for.

00:49:47.750 - 00:49:55.430

You probably heard the GIs, they hungered awhile and I get home. I have pancakes because I didn't not here. Well, one of the things I wanted to do

00:49:55.430 - 00:50:05.990

was to dress well, because my father dressed well, use a bit of a dandy. And so I used to come to school dressed

00:50:05.990 - 00:50:14.780

in a tie jacket. And they thought, oh, he's sort of square, you know. They thought, Well, I was

00:50:14.780 - 00:50:23.200

an agent and of course I showed up on the scene pretty quickly. Thanks again to Charlie, breathing. So they were all suspicious of me.

00:50:23.200 - 00:50:33.100

But that all changed when I was starting to drop psychedelics with them. So how old were you then?

00:50:33.100 - 00:50:46.800

Well, 68, 2025, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. It's two years after. She never ACC yeah. And I learned later erase

00:50:46.800 - 00:50:55.680

CC didn't like me very much because he also was a veteran and a mountain that age. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't erase these.

00:50:55.680 - 00:51:03.740

You'd like I say, you know, he's kept away from me. And George Walcott told me, you know, later years did he didn't like me.

00:51:03.740 - 00:51:18.420

But this was many years. The early 70s, Ray and George and and I and a few others worked at the docks and Wilmington unloading ships.

00:51:18.420 - 00:51:30.520

And so we were all there together on the same crew with others. And we worked on loading bananas and coconuts and stuff like that.

00:51:30.520 - 00:51:47.820

And re CC was part of that group that worked. Right. And he stayed away from me. But so yeah, I knew and I didn't know race CC.

00:51:47.820 - 00:52:07.260

So what was your sense of what was going on with the radicals on campus and what were their issues? Well, their anti-war, they were equal rights,

00:52:07.260 - 00:52:29.290

you know, for, for, for black folks and getting high. But mainly anti-war. You can see the issues.

00:52:29.290 - 00:52:37.850

If you go through the heterodox school boys. A lot of issues is listened to cultural things that and how did

00:52:37.850 - 00:52:51.280

you feel as a veteran and you could served overseas. Did you come to the anti-war perspective? Yeah. Quite quickly. I mean,

00:52:51.280 - 00:53:01.450

as soon as I got home, basically when I saw what was happening in Wellington. And of course I I

00:53:01.450 - 00:53:13.710

became against the war when I was there. Okay. I saw that this this week. We work.

00:53:13.710 - 00:53:21.570

You shouldn't have been there and we were getting involved with people who we despised, whether they were they were friendly or not.

00:53:24.160 - 00:53:37.980

It was very easy for me to identify with those issues when I go to instantly. So the Equal Rights that you spoke of,

00:53:37.980 - 00:53:49.490

what was your awareness of the civil rights movement before you went to Vietnam? And how aware are you?

00:53:49.490 - 00:53:58.170

Where are you of Martin Luther King? Well, I was aware of Martin Luther King, I'd say months same on television and there's a lot of coverage.

00:53:58.170 - 00:54:16.740

And then I think I sympathized with the civil rights movement. Before Vietnam. It wasn't the the main issue

00:54:16.740 - 00:54:31.860

with me because a lot of personal kinds of things going on and is involved with my studies. School and stuff like that.

00:54:31.860 - 00:54:42.750

I do remember that I did watch the March on Washington live on television when I was at Wesley. There was there during it was during

00:54:42.750 - 00:54:58.090

the what do they call it? That orientation week. So I was there early August, so actually did see that

00:54:58.090 - 00:55:09.820

all and television first time I ever saw Bob Dylan was, was at that march and watch the whole thing. And I do remember the speech, everything.

00:55:10.640 - 00:55:18.870

The tacitly agreed with everything. And I wasn't at that point really enthusiastic about joining

00:55:18.870 - 00:55:31.600

any movement or anything like that. But I certainly sympathize. But it wasn't until after the war that I really

00:55:31.600 - 00:55:48.250

felt much more strongly about things. Did you become active in any way on behalf of civil rights? Not until much later.

00:55:48.250 - 00:56:10.200

In the seventies actually. When I became involved with the local Black Press. That was around 74, 75.

00:56:10.200 - 00:56:22.290

Actually, yes. Before that now I have an I remember before that in the seventies, 73 because I left

00:56:22.290 - 00:56:30.140

the area for a little while. I lived in Boston for a while. They came back to, again, finish my education because

00:56:30.140 - 00:56:41.670

68 I turned on tuned in and dropped out. So I had to go through a process of getting back into school because I knew

00:56:41.670 - 00:56:53.910

that I wanted to get a degree which was and I was told that I would never go to college by my high school guidance counselor

00:56:53.910 - 00:57:03.520

had to prove them wrong. Her role I see a Conrad there was this big plan called GM, right? She was trying to steer all the boys

00:57:03.520 - 00:57:13.350

into working at the plant. She told me she told my brother that we weren't college material. As it turned out, we both got degrees.

00:57:13.350 - 00:57:23.780

She was Yeah. I saw through that after a while. So I was here at the university and this is later on in the seventies.

00:57:23.780 - 00:57:43.930

And I was involved with a newspaper here called viewpoint. This was in 70 747-037-4705. And that was more issue oriented.

00:57:43.930 - 00:57:54.280

In fact, the issues, you know, it's a long story. It's not 68. Yeah. But but yeah, I did get involved with that.

00:57:54.280 - 00:58:01.890

I finally he didn't make it. I did write an article for the heterodox school voice. It was in the very last heterodox go voice,

00:58:01.890 - 00:58:14.490

which came out in 1970, January 1970, was a sort of a fiction story entitled We have no flag, which was about Vietnam.

00:58:14.490 - 00:58:21.910

The Vietnam War. You can look it up. It's over there somewhere. Or no, it's over there.

00:58:23.510 - 00:58:33.230

And did you speak out against the war at any yeah. Yeah. That was not until 1969. I think. There was an anti-war rally,

00:58:33.230 - 00:58:41.960

Alan Harrington beach behind the scrounge Students Center. And I was the second Vietnam veteran to speak out against the war.

00:58:41.960 - 00:58:48.910

The reason I was seconds because there were two of us. The other guy went first. Do you remember the other one was

00:58:55.940 - 00:59:08.500

cut cut it around that 1968 laden 60th, like I said, I turned onto and then dropped out and began to experiment with psychedelics.

00:59:08.930 - 00:59:22.170

And was there much of that on campus? Is that just in the community that was on campus? I happen to remember that 1968

00:59:22.170 - 00:59:29.910

is when XDR is that with the call number one? No. No. Okay. I do remember that, yes. Were you involved with no.

00:59:29.910 - 00:59:39.680

No. And the reason was it was WHE yet it was an AM station. And the station was the old Arbery building,

00:59:39.680 - 00:59:51.870

their academy street and dollar Avenue. And it was at a station using carrier current carrier current method.

00:59:51.870 - 01:00:02.670

The signal was sent over the electrical grid, did radiate into the air except maybe incidentally around the grid. I had been actually

01:00:02.670 - 01:00:18.230

involved with a radio station and you'd lost your video at Wellesley College? I was ws. So why was the same kind of thing carrier occurring?

01:00:18.230 - 01:00:27.900

And that's where my radio experience became though in Vietnam I did a different category, yeah, alright. Then when I came to the campus,

01:00:27.900 - 01:00:37.290

I saw that WHE n, You know, then I looked into it a little bit and realize that it was just carrier current and

01:00:37.290 - 01:00:47.060

that I had done that before. I wasn't interested in doing any kind of radio that I couldn't listen to.

01:00:47.060 - 01:00:58.680

And also sort of cynical attitude says, Look, I've done radio under fire in Vietnam. I don't want to bother with this. So I knew about it, but I didn't get

01:00:58.680 - 01:01:12.400

involved because of those reasons. And didn't get involved until the mid 80s with radio station here where they actually began to radiate.

01:01:12.800 - 01:01:22.350

I actually did that before, but they were like really low wattage. So no, I didn't get involved for those reasons.

01:01:22.350 - 01:01:30.900

You mentioned at the anti-war rally there was another veteran. Did you meet many other veterans and did you ever do

01:01:30.900 - 01:01:41.250

things together or talk to each other at that time? Let me think. Actually I did run into some veterans,

01:01:41.250 - 01:02:00.780

but they weren't part of any kind of group. There was a fellow up in Wilmington who I met with a couple of times. And no, not really.

01:02:00.780 - 01:02:14.040

I can't really think of anyone who who I knew. I knew a couple of three guys are several guys who didn't make it back.

01:02:14.040 - 01:02:28.110

One was a friend from Conrad. He was one of the early casualties as Freddie Smith at a couple of guys who I went through

01:02:28.110 - 01:02:42.420

Basic and other training with, Jake, well-done and clever Jones. They didn't make it back. Was the military integrated your group?

01:02:42.420 - 01:02:51.000

Oh, yeah. Quite integrated. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. As a matter of fact, when

01:02:51.000 - 01:03:03.900

I am right after I was drafted. Oh, we were all shipped to to Fort Jackson as sort of like a pre orientation or

01:03:03.900 - 01:03:17.250

pre-selection process there where, you know, they just tried to determine where we would go. And I got put into a bill.

01:03:17.250 - 01:03:26.140

It's a very because they weren't really very small like tents with a bunch of white guys. I felt very uncomfortable.

01:03:26.140 - 01:03:36.460

And so I moved over to another tab with a bunch of Latinos. I felt much more comfortable there. But yeah, it was it was quite intergrated.

01:03:36.460 - 01:03:47.720

Was that because there were I just had problems with white people. I don't know what it was. It's proximal, deep psychological.

01:03:47.720 - 01:04:05.640

But so were you aware of other rallies or protests that were going around cities like Washington and in Chicago in August.

01:04:05.640 - 01:04:18.140

Yeah, I was actually there for the large anti-war rally in November of 68 in Washington. Did you go with others from Delaware?

01:04:18.140 - 01:04:26.130

Yeah. Yeah. We went on a bus together and I remember being part of a confrontation with the police there front

01:04:26.130 - 01:04:36.850

of the justice department. There was a break-off segment of the thing that was going to see

01:04:36.850 - 01:04:43.740

it's going to seize the Justice Department or something like that. We went over partly out of curiosity.

01:04:43.740 - 01:04:55.950

And I remember the tear gas and the cops coming out as I'm trying to push us back. And actually me and a couple of

01:04:55.950 - 01:05:06.690

other people did not go knock down a couple of cops getting out of there. I forgot. Who were the folks from Delaware?

01:05:06.690 - 01:05:18.550

What was it? Just friends from campus. Well, I remember I was with filled with ascii and his wife at that time, Hattie can't remember who else.

01:05:19.190 - 01:05:28.780

A bus load of people went Oh, yeah. Hold bus load. Yeah. Yeah. And did you know people who had gone to Chicago and August?

01:05:28.780 - 01:05:43.430

Yes. I remember they're coming back. Yes. One guy had a got hit in the head. He had a wound or art Magnus, alright bag. This is his picture was in the heterodoxy,

01:05:43.430 - 01:05:54.210

the very end of tammy. Tammy took that as art art. I knew art. He was one of them. The first time I actually came in

01:05:54.210 - 01:06:03.480

contact with George Walcott. Though I met him, you know, here and there, but there was a coffee house here.

01:06:03.480 - 01:06:21.980

Well, we know are called the Phoenix. And I remember going there one night. And George was giving a talk about Chicago. The, the experience there, the riots.

01:06:21.980 - 01:06:35.410

And Georgia is a great storyteller. And I remember that very well. He's, he was mesmerizing, very charismatic, and he laid it all out for.

01:06:35.690 - 01:06:48.300

There are others who I knew, but the ones the two who stick outs, George and art Magnus. Yeah. Can you talk about George

01:06:48.300 - 01:06:59.620

and he sort of a liter or he was a firebrand way we characterize him. He was very involved in the heritage,

01:06:59.620 - 01:07:13.860

heterodox good voice that a lot of writing there, It's very good writer. Later on, he broke away and joined the weatherman.

01:07:13.860 - 01:07:26.490

You probably know that. And did a lot of the weatherman kinds of things. I think I was kinda associated, I wanted to say so I was very familiar

01:07:26.490 - 01:07:42.420

with what went on there. Not very familiar with someone. And then for awhile, you know, he left and went out

01:07:42.420 - 01:07:56.880

to other places and did the weatherman thing. Came back to New York, ran for mayor, became the lead singer for state rider, snake ride, right?

01:07:56.880 - 01:08:07.190

Yeah, I remember them in their early incarnation. When Eddie day was the lead singer. In fact, any day used to come by

01:08:07.190 - 01:08:16.240

where I was living at the time, I was living with a couple of girls over on Kells avenue to Kells Avenue right there on the corner.

01:08:16.240 - 01:08:31.020

And Eddie day would come by, you know, we don't get loaded together. And he was I saw him singing with

01:08:31.020 - 01:08:46.960

or was that the early 70s? That no, this was in 1969. Oh, wow. Yeah. And they did a thing on the used to be a building,

01:08:47.330 - 01:08:57.600

Park Place and South College. I think it was also called the Deer Park, but it was the Deer Park mansion. And they had like a porch

01:08:57.600 - 01:09:03.150

and they were performing on the roof of the porch is the old Odd Fellows house. Was that what it was?

01:09:03.150 - 01:09:10.330

I had no, the red man. Okay. And it was the fraternity? That Jewish fraternity.

01:09:10.330 - 01:09:17.490

Okay. Well, you know, I didn't know. They just knew that that's where the building was and that they performed on

01:09:17.490 - 01:09:27.720

the roof of that porch. There were very good. I was quite impressed. So I kind of knew Eddie day.

01:09:27.720 - 01:09:38.080

So do you remember approximately how long that band was together then? Was or various ones? That's the first time I ever heard of them.

01:09:38.080 - 01:09:49.110

In fact, I didn't know Eddie was part of that band until I saw band is oh my God, That's Eddie day up there. And of course, you know

01:09:49.110 - 01:09:59.410

the story what happened to him? No. Hope. This was like in the seventies. I can't remember the year.

01:09:59.410 - 01:10:11.130

But Eddie and some other people were in the Deer Park drinking and they were taking Qualys. The only other person I knew who was

01:10:11.130 - 01:10:26.600

there was a young fellow by the name. You went by the name of Kool-Aid, poet, black guy, african American. And he was there too. He was a witness.

01:10:26.600 - 01:10:36.120

I don't know where he is now. George says he's downstate somewhere, but I'm not sure. But he was they were all the deer park there.

01:10:36.120 - 01:10:53.410

Drinking, taking Qualys and stuff. And so they decided to leave, right? And so they came out pile into the car and they intended to go in to

01:10:53.410 - 01:11:01.880

turn around to go down to Elkton road or out Delaware Avenue. And there's that little road in front of wonderland where you can turn around.

01:11:01.880 - 01:11:16.280

They didn't use that road. They turned it all the tracks and got stuck there, straddled on the rails and a train coming.

01:11:16.280 - 01:11:27.120

So Eddie and I logically go ahead and stop the train so they don't hit by car. Well, didn't work out that way. Trained, killed.

01:11:27.120 - 01:11:39.240

And that's what happened a day. And of course, later on, everyday lived on because he appeared to George Wolfe kind,

01:11:39.240 - 01:11:47.790

you know, as a flash of light or whatever, George can tell a story better than nine. So you're going to be the lead singer, snake rider.

01:11:47.790 - 01:11:54.270

And the jury says, no, I have never sung anything in my life. And then sometime later, Steve Roberts gives them a call and

01:11:54.270 - 01:12:04.200

invites them overdose thinking state writer. So maybe it goes to VDD, visited Steve Roberts to Iona. So strange things happening.

01:12:04.200 - 01:12:20.020

Yeah. So overview of 1968, when you think about that time, does that year stand out? Very much, very much not only that,

01:12:20.020 - 01:12:27.390

another one that we didn't cover was the assassination of Robert Kennedy. Yeah. I remember being woken up by

01:12:27.390 - 01:12:35.790

my father that morning telling me that Robert Kennedy and it's just been assassinated because he was still alive at that point.

01:12:35.790 - 01:12:47.050

He didn't die until, you know, like several a day or so after. And I remember a friend of mine, John Wooten was his name.

01:12:47.050 - 01:12:59.490

I had known him from before before I had been drafted. I met him in the Civil Air Patrol patrols

01:12:59.490 - 01:13:12.840

and reunited with him after the war. And we actually did go down to train station in Wilmington, sold to train coming through.

01:13:12.840 - 01:13:23.910

And actually saw Teddy Kennedy and Jackie Kennedy sitting in that little porch at the last car. And you could see that the coffin

01:13:23.910 - 01:13:35.310

in the car if they came through. That happened at 68. So yeah, a lot of things going on in 68 is a memorable year.

01:13:35.310 - 01:13:47.970

Memorable year. Do you think that was a turning point at all in your life? Awareness? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It was like Yeah,

01:13:47.970 - 01:13:57.520

it was a very pivotal year. I mean, among other pivotal years, but that was quite pivotal, changed me forever.

01:13:59.600 - 01:14:18.930

It was a mind expanding, it was enlightening. I mean, I you know, another memorable event was my first experience with LSD. There's just changed everything

01:14:18.930 - 01:14:30.940

along with everything else that was swirling around a year. Alright. Thanks Dina. All right.