00:00:01.290 - 00:00:13.090

Okay. This is July 27th and we are in Newark, Delaware. The year is 2022, lest we forget.

00:00:13.090 - 00:00:21.450

This is Rebecca Johnson Melvin. And we're about to hear an interview. And I'll let the speakers introduce themselves.

00:00:21.450 - 00:00:32.500

This is part of the 1968 voices of 1968 oral history project. Good morning. I'm rich golfer and I'm

00:00:32.500 - 00:00:40.240

a 1971 graduate of the University of Delaware. And I'll be conducting interview with Stuart Sharpie,

00:00:40.240 - 00:00:50.040

who at the time was in the administration. And I guess a good way to start this too, would be to have you tell us a little biography

00:00:50.040 - 00:01:00.520

of what brought you to the University of Delaware, your educational background in a previous employment? Thank you, Rich.

00:01:00.520 - 00:01:10.440

Yeah. Sins as to what broke me. See Delaware, I've been teaching American history in UPS,

00:01:10.440 - 00:01:27.860

relative upstate, New York after graduating undergraduate and graduate. And where did you graduate from? St. Lawrence University in New York.

00:01:27.860 - 00:01:41.570

And I decided because I had some experience working with the college students, that I prefer working with

00:01:41.570 - 00:01:50.880

college students because she could at least have a conversation. And you didn't have students talking back to you

00:01:50.880 - 00:02:08.180

and being disruptive when you're teaching your class. So I was after I wrote 25 letters, were looking for a job and

00:02:08.180 - 00:02:32.130

I ended up at a conference with an interview with someone from Delaware. I was to be a hall director and I would be the first hall director in Russell a 1963.

00:02:32.130 - 00:02:51.240

And that was the year it open. And I also was responsible for the entire complex. And Thompson and Elaine,

00:02:52.780 - 00:03:08.250

my title actually, I had two times hauled direct and complex coordinate. Where did you go from there? And after that?

00:03:08.250 - 00:03:24.680

Well, I'm going to be telling you some things that are not on the record. Alright. The Director of Residence

00:03:24.680 - 00:03:50.360

was fired for incompetence. And I was at the time the Assistant Dean of Students. I worked in Napoleon at all.

00:03:50.360 - 00:04:02.200

I was charged with perjury these commuters and all student organizations, which are on the side.

00:04:02.200 - 00:04:18.370

Good background for becoming a vice president will save that for later. But while there, I was appointed Director of Residence and

00:04:18.370 - 00:04:37.100

what was added in 1967. Okay. Just before the date we're interested in. And I'll hold my comments for that.

00:04:38.040 - 00:05:03.100

And I subsequently in 1980s, became Vice President Student Services. And I retired from that position in 1994. Okay, let's set the stage.

00:05:03.100 - 00:05:11.060

We're primarily going to be talking, as you will know about 1968. And as we've discussed previously, lots of what we'll talk about

00:05:11.060 - 00:05:22.390

is going to go beyond that year. But let's start in 68. The key over here, Let's cook for us. List the administration, the players.

00:05:22.390 - 00:05:33.990

I'll say that we're the President through you. Okay. Our Trayvon was president.

00:05:36.550 - 00:05:51.080

John wording was made Vice-President of Student Affairs. At relieving. John old cat lick been vice-president,

00:05:51.080 - 00:06:13.190

and later was given another position. There was a dean of Men, don Hardy and Dina woman, Betsy columns and me.

00:06:13.190 - 00:06:24.800

So you reported in 68 at least to who? John. We're okay. Okay. And again, in the category

00:06:24.800 - 00:06:35.870

of setting the stage, give us kind of a mile high view of the atmosphere on the campus, as you know, in the beginning of 68

00:06:35.870 - 00:06:52.400

before we had the assassinations and the campus troubles, etc. And Chicago Convention, just the full Delaware

00:06:52.400 - 00:07:13.040

was very controlled campus. Local parentis was the predominant mode of operation. From the president on down at the Tommy.

00:07:13.040 - 00:07:34.170

John Perkins was president. There were rules and regulations. I could tell you that some men could come and go as they wish.

00:07:34.170 - 00:07:45.860

Women had hours. They had during the week. They had to be in bye 1030. On the weekend.

00:07:45.860 - 00:08:08.820

They had some times 11, sometimes too well, that they would be out for a woman to leave the residence hall. She had to sign out on a form

00:08:08.820 - 00:08:24.120

indicating where she was golden number of woman ally, particularly if they were going to their boyfriends apart.

00:08:26.740 - 00:08:48.680

And here's what happened. If a woman who was late in returning, the hall director, who was typically a 65 plus year old woman,

00:08:48.680 - 00:09:01.000

and she was hired because she had had children of our own. That was the right way. Anyway.

00:09:01.000 - 00:09:14.170

They first check the dorm for the first hour. She wasn't in. They called Pampers police. At that time.

00:09:14.170 - 00:09:35.480

It was called campus security. If she was found on campus. They gave that to hours. They set out a 5s state alarm

00:09:35.480 - 00:09:54.600

for this young lady. And after that, they placed a telephone call, collect to the parents and collect because it was out-of-state.

00:09:54.600 - 00:10:17.490

So the parents hadn't paid for that. In all my years before anything was changed. Every woman who was late or didn't come back till the next day.

00:10:17.490 - 00:10:33.920

They all work with men boys who had, had flat tires. That was their excuse. A plague.

00:10:33.920 - 00:10:47.830

That was the environment on the campus. During that time. In loco parentis, which what we're going to be

00:10:47.830 - 00:10:58.420

talking about clearly controlled the issue of The Women's comings and goings from the dorm, were there other aspects

00:10:58.420 - 00:11:13.840

of student life that that covered as well? But yeah. If you find pictures of students going to football games.

00:11:13.840 - 00:11:34.720

You see the women dresses and skirts wearing proper shoes as well. It's not anything like that today. Was it written was

00:11:34.720 - 00:11:44.440

there a written dress code? There was a written dress code rule, women, not for men. There was an understood dress code

00:11:44.440 - 00:11:58.520

in Hawaii and all with the administration was that you are not permitted to meet with the student, was wearing shorts? Not permitted.

00:11:58.520 - 00:12:10.020

When I was the assistant dean, I did that once and I was told by the Vice President, don't do that ever again.

00:12:10.540 - 00:12:21.140

With regard to the issues of national politics of the war in Vietnam and setter. Again in the early part of the year.

00:12:21.140 - 00:12:36.390

I think we need to distinguish a little bit. Do you have a recollection of the level of student involvement in the concept of protests and political awareness.

00:12:37.900 - 00:12:53.270

We want to talk about political awareness. I first make a statement that the students at the University of Delaware were not very aware.

00:12:53.270 - 00:13:15.150

However, a new organization was started, SDS, students for a democratic society. One of the leaders rate Cc was very strong leader.

00:13:15.150 - 00:13:41.590

They were very in-tune with the Vietnam War. And I'm very concerned about national governmental action. But they were on menarche, on the campus.

00:13:41.590 - 00:14:08.590

How? They were very outspoken on the campus. As we now know, a very vocal minority. And that, that's really the setting on that.

00:14:08.590 - 00:14:20.260

Again, on the subject of Delaware culture compared to other places. How about on the issue of the racial issue, the black students issue?

00:14:20.260 - 00:14:28.100

I was a percentage was very, very low at Delaware in those years, right? Really. It was very low.

00:14:31.920 - 00:14:46.750

In part. Close at that time. The board of trustees was dominated by the DuPont family and

00:14:46.750 - 00:15:06.280

DuPont executive who advise the President. Well, let me say it another way. We're not too enthusiastic about

00:15:06.280 - 00:15:28.860

African-Americans coming to the university. And the president at the time took the queue from the board. So what you oh,

00:15:28.860 - 00:15:53.510

need to know for this was in 1952 when Collins sites was the judge who desegregated the university are peeled away.

00:15:53.510 - 00:16:13.910

So this is an institution that was anti erase and did not change until there was a court decision. Interesting enough,

00:16:13.910 - 00:16:35.750

that court decision played a part in the 1964 Supreme Court 54. 54. Yeah, I jumped to found it. Let's talk about one of

00:16:35.750 - 00:16:45.600

the major national issues that was going on and talk about its application in general, which is that the war in Vietnam. And let's go to the issue of ROTC,

00:16:45.600 - 00:16:58.630

which was very close to tell me what was going on, was interested in that. Male students, the first two years,

00:16:58.630 - 00:17:16.600

you will require to be in ROTC. On a lot of campuses. Things that were changing, who was slowly change here?

00:17:16.600 - 00:17:33.720

And an, a few things happened. One, as I recall with them, SDS was what? The ROTC walk on, which occurred. The marching field.

00:17:35.710 - 00:17:48.540

Every week there was formation and March. How do I know that so well, because I did it. I was part of the core base.

00:17:48.540 - 00:18:07.250

And they Google SCS students, walked on right in the middle of the ROTC, disrupted it. They dismiss everybody.

00:18:07.250 - 00:18:21.540

And after that, the liver was a formation marching. There was controversy caused by the position of

00:18:21.540 - 00:18:30.980

two professors in 60, I think it began actually 67, but professors Myers and wrestling. Wrestler and Myers.

00:18:30.980 - 00:18:38.060

Okay. Reasons I say this to you because that's the way it was. Okay.

00:18:38.060 - 00:18:52.230

What what position where they taking and how the administration your recollection react to that? Well, Bratislava and Myers or terminate

00:18:53.500 - 00:19:17.930

SDS in check was really upset. And when I say STS, these are a bunch of students. And they held demonstrations,

00:19:17.930 - 00:19:31.430

albeit they want as large as those in the Midwest. But we had our own issue, reservoir and Myers.

00:19:31.430 - 00:19:48.230

And did the university change its policy? Change things for breads, lot of minors? The answer to that is no. But within a year or two,

00:19:48.230 - 00:19:57.550

ROTC was no longer mentor and my my my memory is correct. Yeah. Professor Myers try to get back in.

00:19:57.550 - 00:20:15.800

Right. And then never did your recollection that the student involvement, lack of apathy. Rephrase that students, not just SDS,

00:20:15.800 - 00:20:28.030

but a broader base of students became politicized by that, that business with the professors. Lot of really, okay.

00:20:28.030 - 00:20:43.190

Okay. Wow, originally the, repeat it to jack up the, the humor into this.

00:20:46.560 - 00:21:03.180

Go ahead. Yes, you did. This very serious problems. You asked was a lot of I think there was more student involvement

00:21:03.180 - 00:21:16.280

when we had go naked week. And I had to deal with that as Director of Residence time. Alright.

00:21:16.280 - 00:21:26.600

No, I said no. I I understand what you're saying and I have not unsimilar view, although I do recall there was an increase.

00:21:26.600 - 00:21:37.850

I remember there being more people at rallies after, over those two professors than I'd ever seen that SDS is good people together,

00:21:37.850 - 00:21:50.960

150 to 200 students, a small percentage. The enrollment as the year war on. Again, I'm still mistake pretty much with national issue.

00:21:50.960 - 00:22:09.780

Before we get to the local campus issues. The Kennedy assassination was in April of 68. You remember any reaction on our campus to that?

00:22:10.010 - 00:22:24.440

Was barely a peep. Now the Kennedy assassination was in June and the students are probably of let off.

00:22:24.440 - 00:22:33.010

But what he was doing the I wrote it down to four. Students are probably in exams. And any recollection of that?

00:22:33.010 - 00:22:52.470

Oh, yes. Every lounge in the residence hall. This many students will glued to the TV watching the funeral. Jfk.

00:22:52.540 - 00:23:00.620

A time came and it may be after 60 year in the very end when there was an increasing number of protests

00:23:00.620 - 00:23:11.330

over the American involvement in Vietnam. And of course, in some, some campuses, there was tremendous violence. What can you remember this?

00:23:11.330 - 00:23:29.050

I'm not restricting you at this point, of course, time-wise. But as to the how what was going on here, credit is due to President Obama.

00:23:29.050 - 00:23:39.900

And I'm going to tell you a little story side that is printed. No. Present.

00:23:39.900 - 00:23:56.760

Trayvon, wisely, this was Vietnam and after can stay. He and his wife, okay. Now, for a candlelight parade.

00:23:57.040 - 00:24:09.180

And he invited students and they came to the mall, we call it the green now in front of Memorial Hall.

00:24:09.180 - 00:24:23.260

And they were in the President spoke. And the students for the admit top of been a straighter leading the group. They couldn't be angry.

00:24:23.260 - 00:24:37.800

They clumpy, disruptive about this. There was the president and U2 and me too in the back. Now I'll tell you, too often.

00:24:38.620 - 00:24:56.560

Board of trustees were angered by what percent did and they were planning to fire. And there was a secret board meeting

00:24:56.560 - 00:25:16.520

in Wilmington. They invited the precedent. And it happens to be happens to be one trustee who spoke out and said,

00:25:16.520 - 00:25:31.950

why don't we give this young man a second chance? And it will same line there, who later became chairman of the board.

00:25:33.280 - 00:25:42.620

I won't talk about Sam. Use a tough bird. Really what? But he did that.

00:25:42.620 - 00:25:54.500

He had that one moment. Would you just won't find you remember in discussions with administrators at the time

00:25:54.500 - 00:26:04.800

of Penn State or really at any time where there was a real concern about violence on campus? We had no violence.

00:26:04.800 - 00:26:22.400

How about wearing about it? We we read about it on other campuses, but no, Delaware. And so you're you're recalling

00:26:22.400 - 00:26:31.670

that there wasn't a sense of fear or little paddock. What what's going to happen if it comes here and meetings and plans?

00:26:31.670 - 00:26:42.130

No. I mean, the most disruptive thing that I can recall was ascending in Holly and

00:26:42.130 - 00:26:59.510

all the students referred pleasant about it. And eventually left. Was the damaged know. Joan Didion wrote an article

00:26:59.510 - 00:27:09.740

or an essay or the White Album. She was out at San Francisco State at this time and she said, I wrote this down. During a takeover.

00:27:09.740 - 00:27:21.270

I wanted halls, everyone seem joined in a rather festive camaraderie. Is that what you're talking about? Yeah. Okay.

00:27:23.710 - 00:27:35.510

In the King assassination, the City of Wilmington had this turnout of National Guard which said stay here forever for nine months.

00:27:35.510 - 00:27:43.000

Any recollection? Just Yukon as a Delaware citizen? Not so much in this question about being in administrators

00:27:43.000 - 00:27:53.900

to how you felt about that, your involvement in that your knowledge on it. Well, I remember I was

00:27:53.900 - 00:28:10.740

drunk and I had two secretaries. One was a woman who would come up from the South. She had her view.

00:28:11.110 - 00:28:29.240

The second point with Terry. Yes, she was white, was African American. At the time of the assassination. I called him in and I told her how saddened I

00:28:29.240 - 00:28:49.220

was about this. And we talked. And she subsequently thanks for being the only person who spoke to him access to

00:28:49.220 - 00:28:56.750

the sheer Wilmington City resident. Do you remember? Oh, yeah. I knew he lived on

00:28:56.750 - 00:29:08.640

Chump Street in New York City, but she wasn't a Wilmington resident where the where the lockdown was from, the National Guard took

00:29:09.010 - 00:29:20.990

them until recipes. Him covenant. That's kinda segways into 68, of course, was an election year, a presidential election year.

00:29:20.990 - 00:29:30.820

I know from reviewing some of the review newspaper articles, there was a bit of campus activity involved in the election.

00:29:30.820 - 00:29:49.050

Any recollection on your part as to how the student body or for that matter, the administration was feeling around the the election of 68 was quiet.

00:29:55.120 - 00:30:13.380

Most of the administration were a public certainly the board of trustees were Democrat. You kept quiet.

00:30:15.730 - 00:30:28.500

There were student I sold there were politicians came and spoke with you. You're saying that went very smoothly without gone very orderly.

00:30:29.890 - 00:30:36.740

Let's shift them to something that was much more of your involvement which is locally on campus.

00:30:36.740 - 00:30:43.880

The I guess we can call generally the visitation issue, student dorm visitation.

00:30:43.880 - 00:30:54.680

You talked at the very beginning of this interview about the draconian rules that the women had. Let's talk about and let's talk

00:30:54.680 - 00:31:06.530

about your recollections and involvement in 60 67 beginning 16 when this issue became one of change?

00:31:06.530 - 00:31:21.020

Yes. And then apparently, I was very involved. He writes about it. I want you to talk about what you have in

00:31:21.020 - 00:31:39.290

your hands so it'll be on the record. It wouldn't Tracy, as a graduate student and 71, did a report of

00:31:39.290 - 00:31:54.640

policymaking at the University of Delaware, a descriptive case study, the making and implementation of the residence hall visitation

00:31:54.640 - 00:32:23.390

1966 through 1970. I show rich and he gives me credit in the knowledge about the environment, which I talked about

00:32:23.390 - 00:32:47.820

undue burden and visitation policy. At the time of your visitation proposal was President Obama's first year.

00:32:49.930 - 00:33:10.140

The whole zoo for visitation went along with the policy student rights? Because there was none. Because prior to that,

00:33:10.140 - 00:33:32.620

the students have Brian draw. The administration, acted in local parameters. Your kids, they don't have rights.

00:33:32.620 - 00:34:00.650

As apparent. When when did that first set of proposals start? As part of the student writes or whatever.

00:34:00.650 - 00:34:19.020

67. Okay. The sentence visitation proposal initiated by members of the men's residence hall or MOHAI.

00:34:19.020 - 00:34:34.220

And they wanted to liberalize because up until that time, they were only, by the way, talking about having a few hours a few

00:34:34.220 - 00:34:47.700

days of men or women being permitted upstairs in the mountains, all men being permitted in the woman's fall.

00:34:49.540 - 00:35:07.580

Up until that time. That was not a there's an MO or AHA open dome committee was formed and its members

00:35:07.580 - 00:35:21.060

met met many times with Stuart Sharkey. That was when Mike Sherman was president of MR. terror before that. Do you remember?

00:35:21.060 - 00:35:40.040

Before that? Okay. So by March of that year,

00:35:40.040 - 00:35:59.820

committee had Mr. Sharpies consultation develop a resolution that men's halts be allowed to vote on and implement visitation,

00:35:59.820 - 00:36:12.200

defined as entertainment in men's residence halls of female guests, students. And he is the key.

00:36:12.200 - 00:36:28.060

During prescribe. Our resolution will send you the Director of Residence Hall, Mr. Sharkey, and then

00:36:28.060 - 00:36:41.300

forwarded to the Office of Student Services. And who was who was that person at that point? You remember?

00:36:42.930 - 00:37:05.110

Probably John were. Okay. So this He's very helpful to recall what happened.

00:37:09.620 - 00:37:26.730

And the add just a little backwards. The attitude towards sucrose was essentially the same in these early years as

00:37:26.730 - 00:37:45.810

during the Perkins administration. And the same people who are making decisions. Specific concerns. Anticipated negative reaction from parents.

00:37:45.810 - 00:38:04.070

State legislators had anticipated in violation of traditional morality by students and the legal responsibility of the universe.

00:38:04.070 - 00:38:19.810

The conduct of students. Most of mine are. And there's a quote here from the Dean of men being RD,

00:38:19.810 - 00:38:37.550

for security reasons as well as legal liability. We could not go to Open Door. Plus the product of broken.

00:38:37.830 - 00:38:52.990

That's direct, directly asked you to tell me about you in these early days, you how much you were up against this solid wall,

00:38:52.990 - 00:39:15.150

how much dense you were making in it? Initially, I had to be quiet. And I have said through the years that the things that I did

00:39:15.150 - 00:39:30.280

for John Perkins had been present and still I would fire. Without question. I was able to take Stan and

00:39:30.280 - 00:39:52.230

because I had the support of President Obama, if I hadn't his or I couldn't have said that Related. And then i'm I'm sorry, I keep interrupting,

00:39:52.230 - 00:39:59.850

but who were the leading voices on the other side? The ones that we're talking about, the fears of parents and

00:39:59.850 - 00:40:10.110

legislatures healing the administration was voicing that position strongest. Can you remember that? Initially whole kit, he was still in

00:40:10.110 - 00:40:26.620

charge and the dynamin Hardy, Betsy Collins agreed with that stands. But shoes, a sweet and gentle person and she didn't speak out.

00:40:40.140 - 00:41:23.420

Let me just read this whole kid. Other sources characterize Dean Collins. She being skeptical of the revolves, and Mr. Hogan being strongly

00:41:23.420 - 00:41:37.930

opposed to it from both professional and personal point of view. In contrast, the director of residence halls, Mr. Sharkey,

00:41:37.930 - 00:41:53.680

probably felt the greatest affinity for the proposal since he tended to favor the visitation concept because he had put much effort Julie

00:41:53.680 - 00:42:06.980

advising the students who wrote it. I'm not saying this is is this person saying Well, I was there and I knew that was true.

00:42:08.340 - 00:42:29.570

And now his opinion, Mr. Sharpie, probably enjoyed the least influence in the final decision. At that point in time.

00:42:34.230 - 00:42:51.940

The president was acting president. Sure. Sure. I knew him well. You know, when you're acting for a year, you don't change it.

00:42:51.940 - 00:43:03.520

So the Perkins just carrying it is true bond does become president until the fall of 68. Mr. you're not talking

00:43:03.520 - 00:43:19.660

about industry if D7, early sixties. Okay. When did the first limited hours Station ultimately going to affect?

00:43:19.660 - 00:43:31.720

Well, not until Obama became president of the shoe. I'm wondering. We stay about

00:43:39.530 - 00:43:51.790

how the universe, the outbreak. The trustees retained a traditional role decision-making so as to

00:43:51.790 - 00:44:11.800

leave the president with little independent. Trustees at that time were much more involved in day to day operation of

00:44:11.800 - 00:44:30.590

the top for him. Sorry.

00:44:31.260 - 00:44:43.960

The visitation policy where if conferred upon students a degree of responsibility that the Student Personnel

00:44:43.960 - 00:45:00.950

Administration wasn't me, but the team new man, the demon woman, the vice-president at Delaware, or unaccustomed to.

00:45:05.250 - 00:45:23.460

As I said, Stu, rights. The official attitude towards to personnel administration remain tied to traditional moral values

00:45:23.460 - 00:45:47.840

up by strict control. And when it first went into effect. How do you recall things going and how the administration accepted the the process?

00:45:52.530 - 00:46:12.700

Administration. Floral had no choice but to accept the position that the President at. And this was a new president,

00:46:12.700 - 00:46:26.770

President Trump bond. And things were different. And e.g. the Dean of men within

00:46:26.770 - 00:46:43.400

the year left the university. If you remember parent reaction of any, Will you? Yes, I do.

00:46:45.990 - 00:46:58.930

I'm not going to produce this, but I have a book filled with letters that I received and pertinent or bombers see,

00:46:58.930 - 00:47:11.010

I will quote one cosine memorized it. Way back. Then. If this policy goes

00:47:11.010 - 00:47:28.300

into effect, your institution, your dormitories will be a Sodom and Gomorrah institution and no employer will in

00:47:28.300 - 00:47:47.790

his right mind higher that. Can you That's good. I had a right drafts of responses. What precedent? That was

00:47:47.790 - 00:48:07.770

one of my mind. Sure. Let me just say 1968. A student attended a meeting. No good. One of the first things

00:48:07.770 - 00:48:22.190

Dr. von said was that three things are needed. By Christmas. We're going into 68 new SGA constitution,

00:48:22.190 - 00:48:34.910

a statement on student rights and responsibilities, and a new judicial system. Why nutritive tissue?

00:48:35.280 - 00:48:51.930

Because up until then, system was divided one for male and one female. And people like me said,

00:48:51.930 - 00:49:11.120

this should only be one judicious February body. It helps me to see it in writing. You know, back in

00:49:15.600 - 00:49:23.680

that was that wasn't in December of 68, correct? Right. So he wanted those things in place

00:49:23.680 - 00:49:29.710

before he was going to approve the visitation? That's right. Yeah. Okay. I follow that.

00:49:29.710 - 00:49:54.020

Now, President Trump bond, a retreat at Split Rock. And I will read,

00:49:54.020 - 00:50:06.040

demonstrate the conference demonstrated a difference of opinion between the new president and some of his senior staff regarding

00:50:06.040 - 00:50:17.740

the philosophy and administration of students. There's our students at that split rock conference.

00:50:17.740 - 00:50:31.220

Yeah. Yeah. Jolly was one that was SGA president. I think. He was very active.

00:50:35.880 - 00:50:52.250

The phone Acting President, Trump Shirley was given him a six on leave of absence. And this is, again my opinion.

00:50:54.180 - 00:51:10.230

In six months in May, the new president and to enact his view of administration, which on some level

00:51:10.230 - 00:51:28.860

affected the province operation. So with John Charlene up there, he could make all of these decisions. And also Mr. Hall could left campus

00:51:28.860 - 00:51:48.790

February on a four month tool of 44 campuses and that Vice President, would I be overgeneralizing? Still if I said that what was

00:51:48.790 - 00:52:05.130

happening was a true change. If the guard 100% The, I'll read this. The stool thus to high-level woman strategies with

00:52:05.130 - 00:52:17.320

views on Student Affairs contrary to Dr. Shaw pounds or absent from much of the new president's first-year.

00:52:19.550 - 00:52:29.800

How cold was it? Trevarthen? In his 40s? She's late.

00:52:29.900 - 00:52:40.430

He had been promised at Georgia Tech. And how old were you in 68? I was a child. Hello.

00:52:40.430 - 00:52:50.530

Well, you were blessed. Your 30s? Yeah. I mean, I came I was in my twenties.

00:52:50.530 - 00:53:01.810

I used that to dress up. So they wouldn't take me first. I raised that because I'm seeing, I mean, we talked in those days

00:53:01.810 - 00:53:10.560

about the generation gap. And I asked you, I hear you talk, I'm getting a sense that part of the ability of view and

00:53:10.560 - 00:53:17.230

provide to get things done and change because you, yourself and he were a younger generation trouble,

00:53:17.230 - 00:53:34.870

then that's true. If you want to say that's important and why changes occurred. Alright, I'll step that.

00:53:38.030 - 00:54:08.800

Now. You mentioned briefly about the assassination of Martin King, which leads me to come in on something.

00:54:15.230 - 00:54:28.410

The Black Student Union had become more active. Lead one of the leaders was married, Ruth water.

00:54:28.410 - 00:54:47.950

She was very outspoken, was forever at the mic. Forever fermenting things on the campus was very striking in our approach.

00:54:50.060 - 00:55:01.830

I got to know her. And I was director resident. One day I called her. And I said, Mary,

00:55:01.830 - 00:55:16.920

I like you to be all direct. She almost fell off a chair. I mean, she knew I knew all about her and her views.

00:55:16.920 - 00:55:33.460

I said there are a couple of conditions. Once you become part of the administration, you can't demonstrate against us. You're part of us.

00:55:33.860 - 00:55:49.450

Others will have to demonstrate a physical demonstration. Can you accept that? She looked at me and she said, Yes.

00:55:53.030 - 00:56:14.060

I got a strong negative response from Mr. Hogan. Dawn RD. Basically sin, how in the world could do a point.

00:56:14.060 - 00:56:28.160

After all the things. She has said. Well, let me tell you about her as a whole. That year.

00:56:28.620 - 00:56:44.900

She was the number one best hall director. I bring up the race issue. What were their black administrators are all in 1600.

00:56:44.900 - 00:56:59.150

How about hall directors other than her? Other than how about faculty? Yeah. I mean, Dick Wilson

00:57:01.550 - 00:57:22.880

was the only black person they would see. And he had numerous positions in the ministration and work with two bucks. So whatever transitions were going on in 68,

00:57:22.880 - 00:57:30.480

if Delaware racial racial acceptance wasn't one of them know. Right. Now, only again,

00:57:30.480 - 00:57:36.960

a few more questions on that. The Black Student Union. What is your recollection? Again, in 68 when

00:57:36.960 - 00:57:48.970

many campuses, black militancy, campuses everywhere it was a Black Power, was a growing concept. You know, you and Newton and Stokely

00:57:48.970 - 00:58:02.150

Carmichael, not for sure. What do you have any recollection of any militancy woman for? The level of militancy at Delaware.

00:58:02.150 - 00:58:19.200

Related to Delaware. We need black faculty. We need more black suit. We need to have a voice

00:58:19.200 - 00:58:35.140

on fewer black in the administration. That's what there was some of that fomenting in 68, although seem to have done

00:58:35.140 - 00:58:46.420

anything at that time or a Dr. saying just a few other things. And then when you write this up in other interviews that I

00:58:46.420 - 00:58:53.740

have read in this project, certain names come up, student names. I wondered if you could react it with something she mentioned we're

00:58:53.740 - 00:59:04.550

yourself racy seen as a major activist. Did you know him? What what what were your thoughts? I did not know anything well, no.

00:59:04.950 - 00:59:10.060

And recommend helped me. I come from George Wolfe kind, George walk kind. How about that?

00:59:10.060 - 00:59:19.750

I mean, I mean, I know these names, but I didn't I was not in a position to interact with them.

00:59:19.750 - 00:59:40.690

Alright. Billings Lee Mike Billings Lee. I did interact with he came to see me. I was Director of Residence.

00:59:40.690 - 01:00:02.350

I can remember what issue. But I found another side of mine. He was with SDS, but he had a very pleasant side.

01:00:02.350 - 01:00:23.520

And it's not well understood by his family. His father was a legislator who lived in new R, by the way. But I like mother.

01:00:23.520 - 01:00:35.810

And Mike and I go wrong. Very well. Remember we're talking about Sammy. I for already spent the last name.

01:00:36.120 - 01:00:51.940

Oh, I knew him very well because he was a character. He was a character in. Sammy was more interested in creating

01:00:51.940 - 01:01:15.640

events and bringing the green things in. But Sammy was more talk than action. That's what I have. Let's say to the people that spoke with us,

01:01:15.640 - 01:01:23.740

we're Sean Mullen who was editor of the review at the time, and Richard coder who did the editorial cartoons if the paper,

01:01:23.740 - 01:01:42.530

do you remember the paper being active? Articulate that year? The next editor, Stern, became close friends.

01:01:43.650 - 01:02:10.390

I have brought AND back to campus to speak. He's very active in Texas politics and head of a big company. And so what I learned about

01:02:10.390 - 01:02:22.420

the hue was mostly through AND was there was there was there a significant censorship, give any recollection of that by

01:02:22.420 - 01:02:45.310

the administration over the paper? Not in those years. Well, we start with 67 through 68.

01:02:49.100 - 01:03:10.080

Histones were conservative. I'm not talking about politics, but conservative in their living. The woman initially did not object to ours.

01:03:10.080 - 01:03:27.250

They took it for granted. You know, men's students. But hey, I mean, you would never, in those early years have gone naked week,

01:03:27.250 - 01:03:37.480

which I had to deal with. Well, let's hear about that. You want to talk about that I can tell. I will tell you my story about

01:03:37.480 - 01:03:50.440

coordination and please be good place to end to. This was a period of time where there were no university police

01:03:50.440 - 01:04:14.020

that were universally secure key. And most of them were up in years and literally were not ARM template. I don't think they ever made it at MRS. Well,

01:04:14.020 - 01:04:29.540

they were security and they were not recognized as a police operation. Okay. So I get a phone call, Mr. Sharkey, come right away.

01:04:29.540 - 01:04:45.550

There are men who are naked. Well, I Wilson believes. So. They were in front of Kent dining hall,

01:04:45.550 - 01:05:04.360

which has a slightly raise plasma thin wall on naked. I drove in behind by Smyth in the driveway. And I approach.

01:05:04.360 - 01:05:18.950

This student, was a lead all naked. And the thought went through my head as I was walking. How do you get

01:05:18.950 - 01:05:33.760

the attention of a naked male student? Do you shout? You touch him on the shoulder? On the head?

01:05:33.760 - 01:05:44.860

Well, I shouted. I decided. I decided. And I stood in front of them and I said,

01:05:44.860 - 01:06:02.380

get your clothes on and leave immediately. And then they tip this voice member what I how I described the students. You can guess that for what happened.

01:06:02.380 - 01:06:16.900

They put on their clothes and they left. And where would the security well, if you looked at that tree over there, he was hiding by the tree.

01:06:16.900 - 01:06:28.710

That was what year was that? I was there. I wasn't I didn't say that. Clearly.

01:06:28.710 - 01:06:38.280

This predates streaking in the seventies. This was 70 or 71, I would've said, I see. Yeah. Alright.

01:06:38.280 - 01:06:46.260

We've been going for almost an hour and 10 min or so. Obviously, if you have any other questions you asked me to do this figure,

01:06:46.260 - 01:06:58.230

it's your game for many of the students. They spoke about 1968 being a really important year for them. Does that help protect the laws?

01:06:58.230 - 01:07:17.800

That's the present. And that's the year that the split rock conference was where he explained his philosophy.

01:07:17.800 - 01:07:35.220

That was the year when the top administrators that needs to be a student rights and responsibility that students are important.

01:07:35.220 - 01:07:51.910

It's not that students are to be regulated. He abolished without using the words, These are my words. In loco parentis.

01:07:51.910 - 01:08:17.170

We know role in local correct. Sign really encouraged me as an administrator. It so happened.

01:08:17.170 - 01:08:31.360

I had been employed several years before President Obama came. And I was still there. You know, it could have been, you know,

01:08:31.360 - 01:08:41.320

President Obama rise and the hire a new director of residents. But I had the position. And so now I could go

01:08:41.320 - 01:08:56.480

forward with the changes. I agreed to. I would not have survived if I had the viewpoint of oak it and Hardy.

01:08:57.570 - 01:09:17.680

Just coincidental that whole kit in 1963. And I pretty much kept my mouth shut for a few years. So I think you've

01:09:17.680 - 01:09:27.290

really interesting information about President Obama, and it seems very fitting that font Students Center is named in his honor.

01:09:27.290 - 01:09:34.370

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Alright. Thank you. Thank you very much. It was excellent.