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[Marie Laberge] Alright. So this is Marie Laberge. I'm here with Barbara Kelly on October fifth, I believe in 2012.

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in Lewes, Delaware in Barbara's home Thank you for having me here. [Barbara Kelly] Thank you for coming. [ML] I appreciate this. I'd like to start out by sort of

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finding a little bit about your personal academic background, how you came to sort of study what you studied,

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and sort of where you sort of come from in terms of leading you into this field. [BK] Thank you. Well, I'm a

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local as opposed to a cosmopolitan. Okay. And I was born in Kent County, Delaware and grew up there. Went to school, elementary

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and senior high school there as my parents did. And following that, went to college in Virginia because I could play

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sports and I did that in high school, but there weren't very many sports for girls at that time. So I did what was available. In college

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I saw a woman who was coaching field hockey, a game I had never seen, and I thought, "They pay you for this." So I said to myself,

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I didn't know what I want to do when I went to college and I said, "This is my life now," I thought It just felt right.

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And so I majored in teaching of physical activity. And then after I graduated, I went back to my original

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High School and Kent County and taught there for five years. And then thought I needed more education. So I went to the University of Maryland for

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a year and got a master's degree there in Health and Physical Education. And then following that, I graduated from there,

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with a master's degree, and came to Delaware again and taught at Claymont High School, which no longer exists. The town's there, but the school is not

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there and taught there for a year. And a friend of mine, who was the assistant Men's Athletic Director at the time,

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married my high school music teacher, and so offered me a job at the University of Delaware. A person who had been there for years.

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Hartshorn Hall was named for her and I don't even know if you know where it exists on campus. [ML] Mmhmm [BK] Okay. You do. Great. So anyhow, when

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I was interviewed, which was a very interesting thing. I was told at the time. They didn't want anybody

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coming into the department making waves for women to play competitive sports. And that was what drew

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me into the field and that's why I didn't go to the University of Delaware to begin with is because there was no opportunity to play

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sports and visit with other institutions. So, so that's what initially drew me to it when I was in my physical phase,

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I guess you could say, [ML] So what were you teaching at that point or directly at that point? Just about everything. I taught activity classes.

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There was a basic movement fundamentals course, and all the newbies got to teach on Saturday. We had Saturday classes 'til noon,

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and so I did that. And I taught some sports classes, tennis, basketball, softball, field hockey,

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and some health classes. [ML] And these were not co-educational classes, or were they? [BK] The activity courses were not. The only occasion we had to have

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even men in Hartshorn Hall were like, I think I had a health class early on and I don't think the men students enjoyed

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being in the building because it'd been considered a women's building. And so, so anyhow that was sort of my introduction there.

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And then as I, as I guess what happened was the chair left the department. She became a hermit and moved to

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Idaho on the top of a mountain and built herself a house. And and so anyhow, that left an opening and I

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became department chair for a year, at which point we hired the male athletic director at the time, Dave Nelson. Hired the fellow to come in and combine the

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two departments. As a group of women, we were pretty much self-starters. We were pretty independent. We didn't get a lot of money to do things,

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but we had no bosses, so to speak. [ML] This is when it was the Department of Women's Physical Education? [BK] That's correct.

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And that's what changed everything for most of us because one of the things was to extricate us from

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Hartshorn Hall, which they did. And then we wound up in Carpenter Sports Building. And that's made a difference.

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That was, I think the biggest change because it felt a sense of loss of identity, loss of control, not being, you know, in-charge, so to speak.

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So we went through that kind of a sorting out. A man who was hired came in, with a new curriculum

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and sort of changed everything. [ML] And so you got your bachelor's degree in 1955... [BK] Yes [ML] ...and then your Master's was in 61?

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[BK] That's correct [ML] And so your early years at Delaware were from 62 to 70 in this period. And then you got your PhD

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at UD as well [BK] Right. [ML] So I'm curious about the experiences of women in the university in those early years because you're

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Coming to your...you were in college at a time when there was no such thing as even thought of in terms of women's studies or

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anything about this [inaudible]. [BK] That is correct. [ML] I'm curious about your experiences as a young woman in that I mean, you talked about in terms of trying

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to find space in sports, but I wonder in terms of just the university itself, whatever the university you're in,

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and how that was for women at that time. [BK] As a graduate student as coming in as a new faculty member? [ML] As either as you sort of work through. [BK] The University of Maryland

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I was asked to, as part of my TA, I was asked to coach the women's field hockey team, but it was very informal.

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I mean, they're national champions now It's, it's so it was sort of whoever came out and and give it to a TA to do because it's not really all that important.

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So that was the sports cause. In terms of the teaching, I think the teachers I met were dedicated, interesting,

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committed folk who just again were autonomous like we felt in, in, in physical education at the University of Delaware. So my sense of it was that

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until we combined with men's departments, until we moved where everybody, center of activity so to speak.

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And the center of the campus, we were sort of, you know, off. And I think the thing that changed, it was a push from

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women's collegiate groups who decided they started out with a golf tournament somewhere. And that was sort of the beginning of

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intercollegiate sports in the East for women. And since I was hired not to make waves and I loved what I was doing and where I was,

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I took great exception to that when the groups got together. Even though sports are what, drew me into the field,

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one of the things that happened was I was sort of an isolate when I went to the Eastern women's collegiate meetings

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because people like Penn State and the larger institutions, Ohio State, had decided that it was time for women's sports,

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and they were absolutely right. But there wasn't anybody on our staff who felt strongly about it. Our Chair certainly didn't

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Thought she was a Smith College graduate and felt very, sure that the reason we had wars was because women compete.

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Women didn't compete in sports but men did so she had a connection here between competitiveness and more aggressiveness.

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And so, and she wasn't alone in this there were a lot of women, who, who felt the same way now the sister school,

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Smith, and others had always had play days and intercollegiate, but it wasn't the level and it wasn't governed.

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History of physical education and women's sports is fascinating if you get into it and find out that what happened at the local level was

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also happening at the national level and, and people squared off for the governance of women's sports. And finally the NC 2A won out,

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but it took a lot of maneuvering and a lot of hurt, I think, on the part of women and anger on the part of men maybe to get,

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to get the things unified for whatever reason. But that's probably a long introduction, More than you needed, but... Anyhow that's

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that's how I got it... [ML] So you were, you were working and teaching and even sharing with a master's degree. [BK] That's correct.

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What led you to go get your PhD at UD? [BK] I think probably realizing the transitions and realizing at the center of campus that,

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that to get ahead and keep going, we're going to need a doctorate and, I mean, just just to keep pace. And yeah, I never had any aspirations to be

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the department chair or dean or associate dean or any of those things kind of fell into me. And I think probably it

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probably the degree might've helped, but it and I think as I grew older and was not competing in sports,

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and I personally felt that I needed, and I was challenged by the academic classes I think, too. [ML] I just

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noticed you got your degree the same time that Title IX passed, I thought that was interesting. [BK] How bout that? How bout that? [ML] and then to 72. [BK] Yeah, yeah, it

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was, it was monumental and it was just sort of under one of those little add ons. [ML] Yeah, I think about it we're in

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the 40th anniversary of that legislation and it's sort of had an extraordinary impact in terms of women's experiences on campuses. [BK] Yes, and I don't know

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where Betty Friedan was in all of this. But what year her book came out [ML] 66? [BK] Ok. So these these things

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kind of [ML] ...cooking together. [BK] Yeah, yeah. [ML] So how did you start to get involved with the push

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to create women studies? Even before women's studies was existed on campus. [BK] I think the thing that happened,

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Gloria Steinem, I believe, came to campus much later. Susan Sontag came and Mae and Bob Carter,

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brought her, I believe, to campus. It was events like that that spun off of Betty Friedan and Germaine Greer

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that and reading those books, I think the whole thing felt like a push that you needed to get on on the ball

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And so the people who came in early on, I think helped things coalesce, that's my sense. [ML] And in terms of the sort of impetus you are

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involved in the early committee to help create women's studies. And then you are also part of the committee that created the first women's studies class.

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I have here my records that you actually got one you were one of the seven that got a summer stipend to get together to discuss the class.

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[BK] You you, you you reminded me of that when you send your questions. And I I had

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forgotten it and I try to think back at what we did. And I think that's probably where the germ of everybody,

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every unit that had something to say or someone who wanted to say something could become part of this.

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And so I think that's how it started, And we had a good crowd. [ML] It was quite impressive. Yeah. I mean, I have an overview. It's

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quite a lineup of folks at the university. [BK] Yes. [ML] from a variety of different ones. And you and presented the section on women in sports.

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At that point, did you find difficulty finding literature or how did you do you remember that? At that time? [BK] When I did share

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part of my time with a woman who had been involved in I think intercollegiate and intercollegiate lacrosse maybe and field hockey.

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And I did some of the history from the Greeks on up, which was, I felt the need to do that

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It probably wasn't necessary at the time. Not too interesting for students, but nevertheless, I felt the need to do that. And she, and she

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filled in with some of the actual things that were going on. And because she had come through private schools and they had

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been doing athletics and for quite a time, but not so much in the public schools. And in fact, there were even in the state of Delaware,

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there were individuals at the head of the department of education who said that women won't play

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competitive sports and people in my field actually said the same thing early on. And so it was a mixed bag of who played

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and who didn't play, but the private schools had always sort of done this, you know. And so she, she,

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and she added the practical note to what we were talking about in that class. We had, I think I remember a fellow from sociology who spoke, a fellow from

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chemistry maybe or chemical engineering, who spoke. And they were very well received. And they were very,

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they didn't come in with their suits and ties and they were kind of laid back and they were very well received by the students, mostly women.

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I don't remember if there were many men in that first women's studies class, as students might know if you have the class roster it might be

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interesting to know what happened through the years. [ML] And so you think the students are very receptive to

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these classes as they were starting to be developed. The list [inaudible] [BK] Yes they were. Yes, they were. There was something, it was sort of

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a mishmash or potpourri. But it was something there for any student who is I think it was only a credit if it was [ML] I think so, yeah.

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[BK] Probably, at the beginning. Yeah, as an elective. [ML] So one of the things I do recall is when I interviewed

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Mae Carter and she used to go to meetings with President Trabant to discuss the need to create

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a thing called women studies that she would bring you and other more senior faculty into the meetings with him

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Because there was a concern that younger faculty, were getting a lot of resistance and I would say hostility around it.

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And so I wonder what your recollections are of sort of trying to convince the administration about the need for this and what issues

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might have come up for faculty who are starting to engage with this. [BK] I didn't realize that that was why I was being, going along with Mae,

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but Mae hid it very well. But anyhow, and I don't even know if I was tenured. I guess I was tenured at that time.

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But, you know, if you mess up tenure's not, not, no sense of security there. But anyhow, I think,

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I think for example, going to one meeting with President Trabant. I said, "Now are we after for something specific

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or are we on a fishing expedition? And that tickled her because it was kind of like that. You know, were, were we really just trying

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to do some promotion or we're trying to get something because if she was torn, I think between establishing the office

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of woman's affairs and also women's studies. And I think that might have provided a conflict for her, but they were able to mesh those

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so that they became forces for one another, which was a good thing. But I think there was a period in which some people may have squared

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off in terms of wondering if, if we needed an office of women's affairs like Provost might've come in.

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But she was good about getting the higher administration in to buy into what was what was happening. [ML] And given that you are hired with

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the understanding you wouldn't make a flap, [BK] How did I generate some flap? [ML] Yeah, how does your involvement with Women's studies get? [BK] It was it was the group that

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wanted to get a course together. I had been reading about women sport courses that were happening. People in my field were writing

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books about women in sport. So there was beginning to come a textbook. And Jan Felshon, I believe, and a

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group of other people in my field. She was at Strausberg, I believe, at the time. Had, these were people

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with voices like Sandra Harding. They, they just got to the forefront. They run state institutions where they hadn't had women's sports.

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And, and they began to talk about the physiology, the social milieu of sports for women. So that's... [ML] So you had a lot of backup

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in terms of making the case when you wanted to do this? [BK] Yeah the people in my field were beginning to talk about it. And that's, and I heard,

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I heard this from someone in the English department. They said they thought the first feminists at the university were

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probably physical educators because they were off, even though there were off doing their own thing.

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They hadn't had to Compete with men as scholars. You know, that hadn't happened, but for us it hadn't happened.

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I'm sure it happened in other places. But anyhow that I think it was the sense of getting, getting everybody together and up to snuff

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maybe. I heard things that women said they felt threatened if they got into women's studies. And I can't remember if this was said to

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me or whether it was said at one of the women studies meetings. But "if you don't watch yourself, you're gonna get labeled as one

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of those women's studies people." And I can remember people coming around interviewing people who had been

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involved in women's studies. And I think I said something for the review. Like men seem to be on the defensive about this, you know,

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and so that kind of atmosphere felt like at that time, [ML] How did your department react? [BK] You know, I was in it.

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So it wasn't really aware of what it was. I knew there... We had a long hallway there in the Carpenter Sports Building and men faculty on either side

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are some women and whatnot. But I remember when we got a different chair, a fellow, he came in and said to me,

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"Could you work for a guy like me?" And I didn't know what that meant, you know, but obviously I was a force of some type.

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He was really asking me to cooperate. And so he said, "What would you like to do?" And I said I'd like to

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head the graduate program. We need to graduate program. So, So I did that for a lot of years. So anyhow, that's

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[ML] So he must have recognized that you clearly were an advocate here in this area. [BK] In a way you don't see it

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yourself. [ML] Right. Right. Because you're just doing your job [inaudible] [BK] That's right and things I think are important

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and going to these meetings about women's studies and Office of Women's Affairs and the Colburn Commission. Have you run into

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that? Kind of an interesting little vignette [ML] Were you on the committee? [BK] Yes [ML] To do the? Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, I should've been and

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I because I had got an interview, so I figured I was on it. And but I talk to fellow in the math department and

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he told me that the reason they didn't hire women mathematicians is because nobody applied.

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And so we were on a mission then to say, "But you have to go beat the bushes." So, so anyhow, he took great exception to that.

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Call me on the carpet after that report came out because it came out, there's a big kind of a splashy thing. There were a lot of people there.

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And she had a good name. There's a building on campus, I think named Colburn Hall. She probably married into the family and

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then I think they eventually left. But There was some force behind that report and he obviously felt

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on the defensive about it. That is to say he took me to task for bringing that vignette into the report.

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You don't realize the power of the pen until you step on somebody's toes. [ML] And you probably didn't

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realize that in recruitment efforts, you have to probably get the word out different ways. [BK] He did then. [ML] It's not the old boy network anymore.

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[BK] He did after that. But, you know, and, and within four or five years they had a woman mathematician.

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So and people were doing that and other departments as well, you know, interviewing people that we...where we

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thought there were needs. [ML] So in terms of that, those, those early efforts, were there particular individuals who

00:24:27.260 - 00:24:36.980

are allies in the creation of women's studies in terms the administration? [BK] Art Trabant, he absolutely was. And I think Jeri, his wife,

00:24:36.980 - 00:24:47.120

was I think she was, her background was social work or something like that. But anyhow, they I think he was a sensitive guy and I

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think Mae had his ear and, and that was good. And he, he was seen as really kind of a strong figure, but well traveled, distinguished.

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You know, he just, and the Board of Trustees obviously liked him well enough to bring back. So so anyhow,

00:25:15.910 - 00:25:23.990

that's I think that would be the start of it. [ML] He made a, he made a difference being there at that time. [BK] I do think so.

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Yeah, and it made sense that it was going to be an opening, and I don't know how she was hired.

00:25:30.520 - 00:25:40.870

I don't know whether she knew him ahead of time, but she, she knew where to go. We had better luck with the president

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than we did with the Provost sometimes, but he had, he had other things on his plate. [ML] What kind of resistance do you think that it was in

00:25:49.640 - 00:25:57.630

terms of this idea of creating an actual program around women's studies? [BK] Well, where it was going to be housed was a big thing.

00:25:57.630 - 00:26:10.920

And who was going to pay for it. It's not unlike anything new starting out. So I think that was it from my recollection.

00:26:10.920 - 00:26:18.650

[ML] Was there a lot of student clamoring for it or do you think [inaudible] like that, or...? [BK] I'm trying to think how the Black student movement

00:26:18.650 - 00:26:33.460

and women's studies worked or didn't work. I remember going to a I guess it was convocation. They used to have a big convocation

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and that they probably still have it. And the President spoke and everybody marched in and all that sort of thing.

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But the black students wanted to black student union. So they took the mic and that was the end of complication as we knew it. And Trabant was present

00:26:48.850 - 00:26:57.130

then. He was on the stage when it happened. He said call these ceremonies at an end. And I'm trying to think the

00:26:57.130 - 00:27:04.490

gal's name who was very instrumental in getting the black student union together. And I don't know what time

00:27:04.490 - 00:27:14.330

what period in time that was, but it had to be 68 to 73, somewhere in that period of time. And she was

00:27:14.330 - 00:27:19.550

later I saw her at the University. She's she's she was on staff and She may still be there. I don't know.

00:27:19.550 - 00:27:30.560

>> So Frank Scarpitti he was a sociologist. She stayed with him and roomed there, I think. And was a student at the University. [ML] We

00:27:30.560 - 00:27:38.280

have to [inaudible] Mary Ruth Warner who was [BK] That's it [ML] Oh, it was Mary Ruth? [BK] Yes, that's exactly who it was. [ML] She still teaches for Women's Studies. [BK] Yes, yes.

00:27:38.280 - 00:27:51.440

And she's she's been there and done that. So anyhow, what's the period of time [ML] It was around well Women's Studies was around 72 so it will be around the same time.

00:27:51.440 - 00:28:03.830

And Black American Studies and Women's Studies did sort of get created parallel. So they'll definitely In terms of that first-class,

00:28:03.830 - 00:28:14.180

do you think that had an impact on helping push the creation of the program? [BK] Umm... I don't...yes, it did, obviously, but

00:28:14.180 - 00:28:24.320

I don't know how much. I think there was an awareness created and I think students had some expectation.

00:28:24.320 - 00:28:33.860

So now what? I've got this one course, how about some more. In terms of the administration, I don't really know that that.

00:28:33.860 - 00:28:45.020

I think it's the Provost really whatever sells. [ML] And the early years of Women's Studies were a little rocky in terms of staffing.

00:28:45.020 - 00:28:53.510

We had Ellen Morgan was only there for about a year. [BK] Yeah. [ML] And then Joyce Jennings Walstad, who was only there for,

00:28:53.510 - 00:29:03.110

I think five years. [BK] That was a, that was an unfortunate thing because she decided to go

00:29:03.110 - 00:29:11.250

with the discipline instead of Women's Studies. And lot people had, because she'd been there for five years, thought that she was going to stay on.

00:29:11.250 - 00:29:23.230

[ML] But you were part of a committee of people that were sent out in 1976 to a retreat in Lancaster. Do you recall that?

00:29:23.230 - 00:29:30.760

Make, Margaret Andersen, Gloria Hells, Sandra Harding, Mae Carter Beth Haslett, yourself, Libby Geis and Bonnie Scott,

00:29:30.760 - 00:29:36.880

were all sent off to try and visualize what would come next for Women's Studies? [BK] Yeah, we

00:29:36.880 - 00:29:43.750

obviously talked about curriculum. That would be my guess. And I have very little recollection of it other than

00:29:43.750 - 00:29:51.200

it was just nice to cross paths with people in other fields. I don't know if a report came out of that or not.

00:29:51.200 - 00:30:03.560

Obviously, I do think I remember meeting with the Dean. I think when we came back over. Yeah. I think,

00:30:04.240 - 00:30:12.430

I think Beth Haslett and I went there to talk to the dean, but I don't know at what point in time it was whether

00:30:12.430 - 00:30:20.200

that was to take back information, make recommendations. I know we we had a good time and I know we talked a lot about

00:30:20.200 - 00:30:27.220

and I can't remember the things of substance I'm sure others probably do. [ML] Well coming back that there was

00:30:27.220 - 00:30:33.910

a restructuring of Women's Studies, and Bonnie Scott became the chair. So it was a really sort of more,

00:30:33.910 - 00:30:41.930

I think a formalization of it. Which I think helps sort of stabilize it. But I think it's sort of interesting that there was sort of a

00:30:41.930 - 00:30:53.660

have to rethink it at the mid stage at that point. [BK] There always seemed to be sort of a I don't know. It was a kind of a turmoil about

00:30:53.660 - 00:31:05.420

the administration of Women's Studies within. [ML] Right. [BK] And and I I don't know. Well, as Jules Jennings did,

00:31:05.420 - 00:31:11.390

didn't make a difference in terms of expectation. You know, people thought that was that finally we were on

00:31:11.390 - 00:31:19.010

some kind of solid footing. And then so we had to do something. I guess the thought was you have to do something to keep

00:31:19.010 - 00:31:28.910

people with women's studies as well as being in the discipline. And she just didn't want to do it. [ML] And you served on the Women's Studies

00:31:28.910 - 00:31:40.300

Advisory Committee for about nine years, those early years. What do you recall from those years? [BK] No, not so much. I don't, I know

00:31:40.300 - 00:31:50.480

we were doing the business of the day, but the hard part is, is you're in the movement, but you don't, you don't

00:31:50.480 - 00:32:02.060

know that it is a movement so to speak. You're just doing what needs to be done. Yes. Let's move on here. [ML] That's right, and you

00:32:02.060 - 00:32:07.370

also were serving on the commission on the status of women at that time. [BK] Yes. [ML] Did you find that sort of conflict there?

00:32:07.370 - 00:32:13.490

I mean, both needed obviously because they were doing very different things. [BK] Yeah. [ML] But was there sort of...? [BK] Yeah.

00:32:13.490 - 00:32:23.530

Yeah. There it always seemed as though the commission was trying to reach out to staff members,

00:32:23.530 - 00:32:38.210

professionals, and faculty and there's a conflict there in terms of status. You know, I remember, it was a big thing, "Dress for Success",

00:32:38.210 - 00:32:45.170

And I think I was chair at the time and the commission when Mae knew this woman who worked for Macy's or some place and was willing

00:32:45.170 - 00:32:51.420

come down and talk about dressing for success. And I don't know if I should name names or not.

00:32:51.420 - 00:33:00.500

Is it well, you can use it as you will, and I think she'd be fine about it. But after this Dress for Success meeting, and there must have been hundreds

00:33:00.500 - 00:33:08.090

of people in the cafeteria to see this Dress for Success thing which we thought we had done a good job. And then we got a letter

00:33:08.090 - 00:33:16.610

from Maggie Andersen said, why didn't you just have a wet t-shirt contest? Well, it was perfect, because it's exactly where

00:33:16.610 - 00:33:24.680

people were squaring off about. Dressing for success is just the opposite of how we want to be seen as women,

00:33:24.680 - 00:33:32.810

Not as men want us to be seen but how we want to be seen. So it was an eye opener for everybody, I think. So, yes, there was

00:33:32.810 - 00:33:40.470

that conflict and the professionals and the staff really had no spokespeople because they're not,

00:33:40.470 - 00:33:52.910

so to speak, unionized even today. They have groups, but I think this let faculty is. [ML] Well, one of the things that you raise,

00:33:52.910 - 00:34:01.160

which has come up a couple times, is sort of these sort of eye opening moments at different periods when sort of

00:34:01.160 - 00:34:06.290

you get a different perspective. I wonder what you think of in terms of the interdisciplinary nature of women's studies.

00:34:06.290 - 00:34:12.980

Being able to sort of bring people from such diverse fields. How that might impact sort of the work that you do in terms

00:34:12.980 - 00:34:24.200

of just rethinking about certain ideas? [BK] You mean the work that I was doing there? [ML] In your own field, but also in terms of sort of

00:34:24.200 - 00:34:34.220

conversation with others around the University. [BK] It, it put your feet on the ground. It really did, and Maggie Andersen spoke at

00:34:34.220 - 00:34:44.390

my retirement and she said, well, I I forget how she put it, but she said we she said "We were children together."

00:34:44.390 - 00:34:53.300

And I said no, we're not children, she said "Yes, we were." So anyhow, it was a growing up, it really was it.

00:34:53.300 - 00:35:02.600

There's a bigger world out there and we come from different angles, but there's no reason why we can't converse. And so that's sort of how it worked I

00:35:02.600 - 00:35:09.290

think. [ML] And helping take you those through those growing stages, so to speak. [BK] Yes, yes. [ML] In terms of consciousness?

00:35:09.290 - 00:35:16.490

[BK] Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I just got a flash when you said consciousness,

00:35:16.490 - 00:35:24.200

I'm sorry. [ML] That's okay. [BK] Sandra Harding and Linda Geis unfortunately is you can probably see some of her work, Seeing and Evaluating Women.

00:35:24.200 - 00:35:30.950

And I'm sure you've read that that she and Mae Carter put together and Beth Haslett maybe was involved in some of those writings.

00:35:30.950 - 00:35:39.140

But anyhow, how I remember meeting in Warner Hall was actually the first thing I ever attended where it was

00:35:39.140 - 00:35:47.960

a group of women getting together, expressing their dissatisfaction with the climate at the University of Delaware. And the voices that spoke out

00:35:47.960 - 00:35:56.720

loud and clear were Sandra Harding, she was there in black boots. And I thought, wow, you know, and then Lindy Geis, you know,

00:35:56.720 - 00:36:05.720

talking about the Provost and the President, what they weren't doing, what they should be doing. And those things didn't

00:36:05.720 - 00:36:13.250

come up at faculty meetings. I mean, that was, to me that was it was a hook really it kind of got me. Well, that's their right.

00:36:13.730 - 00:36:21.890

You know they're absolutely right. This is something and I think that was one of the things that attracted me to the whole Women's Studies,

00:36:21.890 - 00:36:34.640

Women's Affairs kind. It said there's a voice that needs to be included here. So that's that was a digression,

00:36:34.640 - 00:36:42.800

but I I just got a flash [inaudible] of and they were the ones who kinda carried the day. Lindy had

00:36:42.800 - 00:36:52.520

she had had some experiences, I think she was doing secretarial work in her in for somebody where she was studying. She was at Columbia,

00:36:52.520 - 00:37:02.960

I believe, or someplace like that. But anyhow, she probably should have been in another job and she should've been a TA,

00:37:02.960 - 00:37:09.730

teaching or something, but she was in the secretarial business for a faculty member and that's that was kind of

00:37:09.730 - 00:37:25.340

her direction where she was coming from. And I think Sandra's she's gonna stir the pot wherever she is. [ML] And she still is. And how do you think Women's Studies

00:37:25.340 - 00:37:39.200

has had an impact at the University of Delaware? [BK] It's seasoned it well, I'm sure. And I think it's It's started to attract

00:37:39.200 - 00:37:48.840

some really fine students. [inaudible] is one comes to mind. I think he's a Justice in the court system here in Delaware.

00:37:49.810 - 00:38:03.650

Oh, the gal. She may be Indian descent, but she's also a lawyer. She was... [ML] Shaku Bhaya [BK] Yes, Shaku Bhaya. And she and I think she had

00:38:03.650 - 00:38:11.060

a sister who was an athlete too probably, if she wasn't in athletics. But anyhow, those students like that made a difference.

00:38:11.060 - 00:38:17.690

And then to have some of the faculty who had already become tenured written books and whatnot, take part in the program.

00:38:17.690 - 00:38:27.140

I think all those kinds of things began to verify that this is an important presence. People seeing things at other campuses. Mae Carter starting

00:38:27.140 - 00:38:34.770

the Office of Women's Affairs, these things kind of said there's presence here, an important voice to be heard.

00:38:35.920 - 00:38:45.440

[ML] And in terms of sort of the, the longevity...we're seeing a lot of women's studies departments that are actually closing down

00:38:45.440 - 00:38:55.260

their shops these days because of cutbacks. And we just became an official department two years ago and sort of are obviously here to stay for awhile.

00:38:55.260 - 00:39:09.610

What do you think it is about the context of what happened at Delaware that would explain that longevity, [BK] It's always been a few

00:39:09.610 - 00:39:21.430

strong faculty and some very gifted students, I mean I and getting the voice of administration. I don't know if they have that voice today,

00:39:21.430 - 00:39:32.050

but I I do know that through Perkins they did. Jones was there such a short time, but he, he he was a listener, you know,

00:39:32.050 - 00:39:49.130

and then Roselle understood the bottom-line. If it drew students, If it fit in to the academic mission, I think he was fine about it

00:39:49.130 - 00:40:00.650

too. I don't know Harker at all really, so I can't speak for that, but I think I think it had a good reputation

00:40:00.650 - 00:40:10.460

because the people running the program and the people in the Office of Women's Affairs, and people you know, they were publishing

00:40:10.460 - 00:40:18.620

And we would print a list of all people who had done some publishing. It was the core of the faculty and some of

00:40:18.620 - 00:40:25.580

the men were also publishing things that were related to women's studies. So I just think

00:40:25.580 - 00:40:34.070

the centralness of it to the mission of the institution may have helped. And the university is

00:40:34.070 - 00:40:43.990

kind of apart from Sussex County, is very different from, from New Castle County. And I think I think

00:40:43.990 - 00:40:53.180

that climate and a lot of academics, people who had been other places and saw good programs going. Why it hasn't left,

00:40:53.180 - 00:41:02.300

I think is due to the people, the people running it and students taking courses. [ML] Fortunately there is still a need for it. [BK] Yes.

00:41:02.300 - 00:41:09.860

Yes. [ML] How do you see over the 40 years, the changes in your own field in

00:41:09.860 - 00:41:18.180

terms of the sort of expansion and development of this critique of from a women's studies perspective?

00:41:21.250 - 00:41:33.520

[BK] I don't know what my field is anymore. You know, it's very hard because my, my doctorate was in the behavioral sciences, which no longer exists.

00:41:33.520 - 00:41:40.730

And it was a third of my courses, were soc, a third education, and a third psych. [ML] So you were interdisciplinary

00:41:40.730 - 00:41:49.940

to begin with anyway? [BK] yeah, Lindy Geis was on my dissertation committee. So I

00:41:49.940 - 00:42:01.010

guess and I went to a humanities based undergraduate school. So I really think I came into it because I happened

00:42:01.010 - 00:42:10.490

to be an athlete, you know, I did. And then I saw a place where I could teach. And then not just teaching classes, but teaching, teaching

00:42:10.490 - 00:42:22.700

future teachers. That really made an impact for me. So I think I see that I'm still a

00:42:22.700 - 00:42:31.100

little bit bothered by the super competitiveness of women's sports, even though I played

00:42:31.100 - 00:42:40.910

I saw them in a place where we were our own bosses and we weren't struck by the Monday morning headlines and,

00:42:40.910 - 00:42:47.810

and the injuries that women receive from playing highly competitive sports. I'm glad they have the opportunity.

00:42:47.810 - 00:43:06.080

I think strong women probably are creating stronger families. I can see that happening. But that would be the impact I think is this. It's the good and the bad, you know?

00:43:06.080 - 00:43:20.630

And I was watching the Women's National Basketball Association and I remember seeing some of those young, young men are still young.

00:43:20.630 - 00:43:26.510

But to me, but anyhow, they, they started as freshmen at Tennessee and now they're playing in the pros,

00:43:26.510 - 00:43:35.190

and it's a meal ticket for people and it's a wonderful thing that, that they have that opportunity.

00:43:35.190 - 00:43:47.540

But there's also always the opportunity for taking drugs, overextending, getting injured. But that's the nature of sports, though.

00:43:47.540 - 00:44:00.170

I guess I would just like it to be more like it was in the days when Smith went to Barnard and they, they played play days

00:44:00.170 - 00:44:08.630

and, and competitive sports. But, but, you know, the competitive thing sometimes can get to be a bit much.

00:44:08.630 - 00:44:15.480

[ML] And then the issue of equitable resources, for women in men's sports. [BK] That's that's helped. It's still an issue. Yeah.

00:44:15.480 - 00:44:24.170

And and I know Maryann [inaudible] says she being in athletics Is a good friend of mine

00:44:24.170 - 00:44:32.370

In fact she was a student of mine. But anyhow to see the need for women to have more scholarship money,

00:44:32.370 - 00:44:42.080

that's where I donate because of the need for trying to bring that equity up. You know, it's not perfect, but it's on its way.

00:44:42.080 - 00:44:50.480

[ML] So what do you think still needs to be addressed in terms of women's status at UD in your field?

00:44:50.480 - 00:45:09.790

[ML] Hmm, well, I know women's studies, with gender studies, that is a really a kind of a bold step in a sense. When I went, when I

00:45:09.790 - 00:45:19.270

got into the program, I mean, that was the farthest thing from sort of anybody's mind and spent when you see people on TV,

00:45:19.270 - 00:45:28.180

well meaning characters who, who are either homosexual or they have different lifestyles that gender studies, I mean,

00:45:28.180 - 00:45:34.960

it, it just seems to be where, you know, something that needs to be addressed, particularly at the college level.

00:45:34.960 - 00:45:49.500

So I think that's a really good thing. And, and to realize young folks just don't know the history.

00:45:49.500 - 00:45:58.370

They take for granted the fact that they always had a bus to travel two to a sports contest in and they always had the best equipment.

00:45:58.370 - 00:46:05.870

They always had the best uniforms. And back in the days when we had shorts and shirts or not maybe no even shorts,

00:46:05.870 - 00:46:16.820

just little skirts and things like that. So there's a history there. It's, it's rich, it's important, and it needs to be understood.

00:46:16.820 - 00:46:23.510

I don't know if I've addressed your question, but... [ML] What is your, What are you most proud of in

00:46:23.510 - 00:46:47.120

terms of your career? [BK] I could not pick one thing. It's my I was thinking about the woman who was

00:46:47.120 - 00:46:57.510

our department chair and went to live on top of a mountain in Idaho. She said she wanted on her tombstone to say she never harmed anybody.

00:46:57.850 - 00:47:07.400

I would like to think that's, you know, that's not a bad a bad thing to have on your tombstone. And there was another woman.

00:47:07.400 - 00:47:23.040

she was, she wrote a book called Praying for Drywall, or praying for she needed walls and her cottage in her house.

00:47:23.040 - 00:47:34.260

Black woman, I believe she was. But anyhow, there was a there were trucks on a curve of 95 that occasionally lost their loads.

00:47:34.260 - 00:47:44.310

And one day the dry wall fell off a truck and everybody ran out and helped her helped her get the walls. And on her tombstone.

00:47:44.310 - 00:47:56.030

"She done the best she could." And I thought, you know this So I guess, you know, at the time I I tried to do the best I could.

00:47:56.030 - 00:48:05.330

I try not to harm anybody, but to move the ball forward in a direction that would empower women to see themselves as equals.

00:48:05.330 - 00:48:18.410

Walk better, that sort of thing. [ML] I like the sports metaphor, moving the ball forward. That's ever present for you, right? [BK] It is. It's all there. Some fellow has

00:48:18.410 - 00:48:25.820

written a book called Golf in the Kingdom, and it's an older book. But anyhow, he talked about the golf ball resembling

00:48:25.820 - 00:48:41.420

the world moving ball forward and at anytime on Earth there's a golf ball in the air somewhere. He saw sports metaphor there for life. [ML] So is there anything else that I haven't touched on that

00:48:41.420 - 00:48:51.410

you want to make sure we get on record? [BK] No. I think you've gotten most of it. I think we may have ruffled some feathers

00:48:51.410 - 00:49:05.480

and had our own ruffled. I'm struck when Susan Sontag came to the university, that room was full of people, too,

00:49:05.480 - 00:49:16.030

but there was a young woman, was it Kosovo, that she was responsible for getting our attention to? Maybe. But anyhow, a woman from the country

00:49:16.030 - 00:49:25.260

said, stood up after when there was a question and answer at the end. And she said, "I cannot say this except for my people,

00:49:25.260 - 00:49:36.970

but my parents would like me to personally thank you for what you did to bring all that forward so that, United States press saw

00:49:36.970 - 00:49:48.310

what was happening to people there. So there are moments like that that really bring home the impact of what you do. Little bit like Will Baxter

00:49:48.310 - 00:49:57.110

in the math department, they hired a woman math teacher finally. But you have to say you got to beat the bushes here.

00:49:57.110 - 00:50:07.960

So I think most people want to do the right thing. Most people. Just how you define right is what

00:50:07.960 - 00:50:15.610

where we get into trouble. [ML] And also as you put out, they might not know there's a different way of thinking about it until

00:50:15.610 - 00:50:23.890

you bring in that and raise that consciousness. [BK] Yeah. The Colburn Report was,

00:50:23.890 - 00:50:33.010

I can feel the electricity in room, just like of the day when Sandra Harding and Lindy Geis were in Warner Hall saying, "These things are wrong.

00:50:33.010 - 00:50:41.700

We need to do something about it." So there are few moments like that that you really look back on or should we run a wet t-shirt contest?

00:50:41.700 - 00:50:50.900

You know, it's these things tell you what's going on. [ML] Were you active in women's organizations

00:50:50.900 - 00:50:59.180

outside of the university, or was it mostly around the sports involvement? [BK] International women's

00:50:59.180 - 00:51:09.170

physical education group. I was US representative for that toward the end of my career at Delaware. And that was nice because

00:51:09.170 - 00:51:19.340

you're able to go to Finland, you know, other places in the world and meet with other people from other countries. And in some ways

00:51:19.340 - 00:51:26.270

they were better off than we were. In some ways we were better off than they were. [ML] I was quite moved watching

00:51:26.270 - 00:51:34.230

the Olympics and got this past year [BK] Yeah. [ML] And different moments when that Saudi Arabian woman ran her race gave me chills.

00:51:34.230 - 00:51:42.170

[BK] Yes. [ML] Yeah. [BK] Yes. And women were saying even 15 years ago told they can't run

00:51:42.170 - 00:51:49.600

track and field they can't do the swimming, you know, and what the cultural issues were for them and,

00:51:49.600 - 00:52:01.490

and then you look at someone like Japan. They've always been wonderful dancers and, and that was very strong for them.

00:52:01.490 - 00:52:12.570

So it was an eye opener to see, to get to the international group, I think. [ML] And once women engage in sports and it shifts their understanding of their,

00:52:12.570 - 00:52:22.520

their bodies and who they are and allow. I mean, it really does open up other doors that you see in a variety of ways. [BK] It does, yeah. [ML] And I don't think that was awareness of

00:52:22.520 - 00:52:30.970

the profoundness of that for a lot of people until after the fact, except if you're in it. [BK] Yeah. It's as I say,

00:52:30.970 - 00:52:38.300

I wouldn't have come up with the thought that the English, I think was an English faculty member, said that you really

00:52:38.300 - 00:52:44.420

were the first feminists. Because to become aware of your own body, respect it, and know what you can do

00:52:44.420 - 00:52:52.430

and feel stronger as a result of that. I mean, what else? What, I mean, any course or whatever wherever you get

00:52:52.430 - 00:53:01.740

that information is good. [ML] Well, thank you very much. [BK] Thank you. Thank you.