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[Marie Laberge] All right. So again, Marie Laberge here, with Janet Louise, January 14th, 10:45. Thank you for having me. [Janet Louise] You're welcome. [ML] Before we get started

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in terms of the general overview of the interview, I do want to ask you one question which is for future posterity,

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and for historians, which is when I was looking at the documents, your name was Janet Nighland, and you now go by Janet Louise. Just for the record, when did you change your name?

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[JL] It was a process. When I went to graduate school in 1980, I went as Janet Nighland. And in that process,

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by the time I graduated with my Master's degree, I was Janet Louise. [ML] It took me a while to realize I already know

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the Janet in these notes. All right. I do want to get some background information about you. Sort of where you grew up

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and how you sort of ended up here in Delaware? Or if that was where you were all the time? [JL] Actually, Delaware is home. I was born in Wilmington.

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My family, my mother's family is are native Delawareans. from Middletown down to Oak Orchard. But in recent century,

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I'll say New Castle County was the primary area. And my mother graduated from Middletown High School

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and went to Goldey Beacom business school. But she married a man who was in the Army. So I was born in Wilmington, and until I was 8 years old,

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I lived in a different place every year of my life, 1 year, 3 different places. So it's kind of created a little wanderlust

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in me, I think. I like, this is how I acknowledge that and I'd like to come back, but I'm always looking for that next trip.

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[ML] So where did you go to high school? [JL] I went to high school at William Penn in New Castle. [ML] And according to my records,

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you are a non-traditional student in that you did not immediately after high school go into college, but you married and raised a family.

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Is that correct? [JL] That's right. And I was a secretary at Avon. I was a very traditional homemaker. My work was important, but then

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when my son came along, I stayed home and took care of him. [ML] So what led to your decision to go back to school? [JL] Well, you know,

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it was kind of an evolution because as a new mother and not having a full-time job, I had more time on my hands. And so I really credit the League of

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Women Voters with major changes in me, because I was interested in government and it was a study group And... but I

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only had a high school education. And I think all of those women were college-educated. They were free in the daytime like I was.

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And I... it took several, several years and in the coming, but I realized that I needed more education. And living

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in a university town, it's easy to take classes. So at that time, it was easy to do everything in the University.

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So I took a course. Women's Studies. So I figured if I can pass that, that's my first step. So of course I got A's,

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Then, I think it was in the time when they thought women should take Accounting. So first semester, okay,

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it is kind of fun to organize all that. But the second, I knew that wasn't my direction. But it was that step-by-step.

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And each semester I took 1 class until I had 5 and I could matriculate. But I wasn't in the system.

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I didn't know that majors should be declared and put to which I really, I think after about 6 years or so, I got a letter from the University

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saying, "You've nearly got enough credits to graduate, but you don't have a major." So my good friend,

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teacher, mentor, Jim Newton, who was Chair of the Black Studies program. I went to him said, "What can I do?" And he said, "No problem.

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There's this new liberal studies program." And he said, "You know, you can." We talked about it and I wrote a proposal for being a cultural worker,

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but that's not very substantial in the work world. And so then I took this course called Language Power and Sex.

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And that's when I learned that linguistics would be my avenue. So that's why I went to graduate school at the University of Nebraska in Lincoln.

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Because Julia Penelope, a radical lesbian separatist feminist, was teaching there. I had to study with her.

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[ML] And so going back a bit, what was that first Women's Studies course that you took? Do you remember? [JL] Oh, it was the general Intro to Women's Studies.

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And it was taught by, it was taught in 3 sections. Actually, I think Sandra Harding might have been 1 of those 3 teachers.

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But even at that, I took it in a non-traditional way because the third week or that one-third of the class,

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I was traveling in Europe and I had to write my paper going through the mountains in Scotland. And that was my first Women's Studies class.

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[ML] Do you remember what year that would have been? [JL] It probably was around 1970, let's see, 1971. [ML] So it was one of the early ones. [JL] Oh, yeah, it was. [ML] And just as a question,

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you talked about sort of wanting to study with this radical lesbian feminist in Nebraska. What was your involvement in the early Women's Movement? [JL] Oh boy! [ML] How did you get into it

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from this traditional family experience to...? [JL] Well, you know, I have to go back to the League of Women Voters again, because they're well-known as

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a good government study group. Nobody's going to tell you. What to think or how to think. But so having a lot more time,

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I could be in several study groups and got involved with the Newark Parking Authority. And so that was a foot into local politics.

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And then at that time, well, I had a different name then and I became... The Republican Party asked me if I would be a committee woman.

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What's this about? Well, it's about good government, getting people registered to vote. And I'm very naive.

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So I said, "Okay." [ML inaudible] [JL] Exactly. I didn't have any problem. And, you know, Delaware is historically a progressive Republican State.

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So actually there's history in my family that my grandfather, I believe, changed to Republican so he could run

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against his Democratic cousin Harris McDowell, way back in the day. And so from that point, our family was Republican,

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although parties were never discussed. So here I was as a Republican committee woman and I saw on campus there

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was a meeting of the Delaware Women's Political Caucus. And so I thought, "I'm a political woman. I'll go and hear what they have to say."

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And they said, "Well, you know, one of the first things you need to do, and this Rasserto, who was a Democratic co-chair of

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the Political Party Caucus in the forming stages of it. So she gives her rousing talk. And at the end she says, "Okay,

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first thing you've gotta do is become a committee woman." I'm already a committee woman. So I walk up to her after it and I said, "Well, you know, I've done that."

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And she said, she learned that I was a Republican committee woman and her eyes lit up, because at that time, we were willing to really criticize candidates,

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but didn't feel that the Republican, it wasn't politic for the Republican to criticize the Republican candidate. So we did opposite party critiques.

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So I began to be a member and became the State Co-chair of the Women's Political Caucus. And we went to the First National Convention in,

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I guess it was in Houston, Texas at the Rice Hotel. Sat in the back of the bus with Gloria Steinem,

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sat on Betty Friedan's bed and mapped out our strategy for who we wanted to be the first president of the caucus. So it was really very exciting times.

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But at the same time in Delaware, I was very involved in local women's politics support. And I had a newsletter called

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The Full Moon newsletter, or La Luna. It had several permutations, but it was really fashioned after Lesbian Connection newsletter,

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which so far as I know, I mean, unless it's really totally objectionable, anything that anybody submitted was published.

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And I really liked that because it brought a lot of the community together. And there were book groups and potlucks

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and parties, discussion groups, art. It really was a very solid community at that time. And I was very

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happy to be the newsletter person. And then when going from there... [ML] So what would be the timing of that? Is that while you're in classes at UD still in the early 1970s or later?

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[JL] Uh yeah. No, this is like early 1970s because the awakening, if you will, came with becoming League of Women

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Voters member and then the Women's Political Caucus. And that's when, becoming Co-chair of that and meeting

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all these famous women and other women who had political strategies and plans and ideals, just really kind of catapulted me into another frame of

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thinking and what to do. So then it was very exciting when Ellen Morgan came to town and said, "There's going to

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be a Women's Studies program on campus." So we were... She was meeting the community leaders and, you know, just having coffee and talking.

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And so we were asking her what did she need and she said that really that her biggest need at

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the time was office staff. And so that's my background and I said, "I could do that." So, you know, it wasn't really a

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serious I'm going to do that. But it became very real. And I did become the office coordinator for

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the Women's Studies program. And we started the office in Warner Hall. It was very interesting. We were very non-traditional,

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all the way. [ML] Yeah, I've seen a picture of you and Ellen in the, I don't know if it was the desk, or somewhere in the lounge in Warner. [JL] Elegant. [ML] So by day it was Women's Studies office, and at night it was

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back to the students' dorm, right? [JL] Yeah. It was more like, well, all morning and maybe part of the afternoon it was Women's Studies.

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But we could always be Women's Studies if we came in there and it was acknowledged as that from the students as well.

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[ML] At that time, I think it was a Women's Studies dorm, like a Women's Studies interest dorm. Or something of that sort. [JL] Yeah. Yes, it was a women-only. [ML] So what was your...

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what did you do in the office? [JL] Oh, that's a good question. (Laughs) I had fun. Ellen was also not

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the kind of person that "You're my secretary, so take notes" kind of thing. I did the newsletter, which came out at least once a month.

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It may have been a bi-weekly, but I think it was probably more once a month. So it was La Luna,

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but now from an academic perspective. And a lot of it also had to be announcing what we were doing. And because it was also

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a very busy time with bringing people to campus, seems to me people like Mary Daly came at that time.

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So it was very exciting to have faces on these names that were out there so strongly. So I was, my job was 20 hours a week,

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so I had like 4 hours in the morning dealing with whatever on-campus things, like office things, that needed to be taken care of.

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Students would come. Ellen and I were not... she was really busy meeting people and doing things like that.

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So we didn't really spend a lot of time in the office at the same time. [ML] I was reading some of the notes. She said something about having

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meetings at your house, you were there on-campus or something and she would be having coffees or something at your house. [JL] Yeah, I lived on White Clay Drive then,

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which was very close and by the creek. And it was all very informal. [ML] So in terms of getting Women's Studies started at that time,

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did you sense a lot of support or resistance on campus? [JL] Oh by. Well, I tended to focus on where we were getting support more than where we were not.

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And so I remember especially Will Shaner. I think he was bemused by us more than anything else. [ML] And what was his position? [JL] He was in charge of

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finance in the Arts & Science office. So he was a critical person for us to know and get along with. And it was very,

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I suppose he was being patronizing. It's like, "You girls don't know what you're doing, and how you should do things." And we didn't according to their system.

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So he kind of took us under his wings, and, in a very kind of gruff way, was very kind to us. So he stands out.

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And Helen Gouldner was also very supportive. But there's a whole team of Women's Studies people like Mae Carter.

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Where would Women's Studies be without her? And this group of women. Akasha Hull, Gloria Hull, then. Sandra Harding, Bonnie Scott,

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Margaret Andersen. I can't remember who all was there at that time, but it was a very wonderful, supportive time.

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Everybody, both community and on campus, wanted the Women's Studies program to succeed. And it was,

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I felt, it was very popular on campus. You know, not everybody wanted it for sure, but there were enough of us, and a tight enough community that it felt

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really wonderful to be a part of the start of Women's Studies on campus. And to bring my community activity and connections.

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So it really was, I think, that first year, a very nice marriage of the academic and the community world together. [ML] How did students react to this?

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[JL] I felt that the students that we came in contact, were very excited as well. I think the atmosphere at the time

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was one of easy excitement. People were eager to find out what's here on this campus. How would they be enlightened?

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The tenor in the world outside of campus was also in a very dynamic. So it was, they were very exciting times. [ML] And how long were you in Warner Hall?

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[JL] We were in Warner Hall for that 1 year, so I guess 2 semesters. And I don't recall

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that we did anything in the summer. I think I was off and she was off. [ML] And then I have in my records, at some point you moved 34 West Delaware Avenue.

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Which ironically, is where Women's Studies is now. The description was "Women's Studies is in a decrepit building off of campus." Because campus hadn't expanded that far.

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[JL] That's right. [ML] You had like 1 or 2 rooms in this little building off-campus. [JL] The upstairs. We had the upstairs. We had, actually, we had 3 rooms.

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You come up the stairs and there was the office coordinator. And by that time we had Marian Neville was the work study worker.

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And it seems that we had another one too, but I can't remember her name. And then you walk in to Joyce Walstedt's office

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and around the other room, which, as you know, are real old bedrooms, was the library. [ML] Yes, I'm on the third floor.

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[JL] Oh. Now, we didn't have the third floor. [ML] Oh really? [JL] No. [ML] That was someone else. [JL] Yeah. I understood that they became offices,

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but that was after my tenure. [ML] And so how long was Ellen Morgan there for? [JL] She was there for year. [ML] And there was a period where she had

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to leave for health reasons. And there was no one in that position for a time. [JL] You know, I can't recall that it was really vacant. I think when we came back in September,

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Joyce Walstedt, she had an appointment in Psychology. So I think it was finding somebody who could plug into the spot.

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[ML] And she was there for several years? [JL] She was there... I was in the program for another year and a half

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and I know she continued at least the 2 years and I don't know beyond that. [ML] And so how did you see the program developing during that time period, in terms of growth?

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[JL] Oh boy. [ML] What were the sort of issues that came up? [JL] Well, I probably should say that when I was in

00:22:19.670 - 00:22:36.650

the Women's Studies office at that time, was among probably my more militant behavior at times. And it was such a contrast between Ellen,

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who we know, "Here's what you need to do. Do it how ever." And everything was. There may be suggestions, but basically,

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I owned up to my job and was given the freedom to do it. And I understood that my role in the Women's Studies position there

00:23:03.350 - 00:23:22.120

was to marry the community and academic world. And Ellen really was a true feminist and believed in equality. And I felt very nurtured by her.

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Joyce was, I don't think she was a feminist to start with, and didn't understand the values of feminism and the sense of

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community that was there and how it changed was somebody who I felt was it was an academic plus to

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be Chair of the Women's Studies program. And it could be very beneficial in terms of her CV. And I think she tried to understand

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perhaps as a psychologist that this is a different way of doing things. But I think she also didn't have any experience being that kind of leader.

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Even in a traditional way. So I think between her lack of experience, shall we say, and my intolerant attitude for any kind

00:24:34.640 - 00:24:45.890

of discrimination that I felt, real or not. We just didn't. I think the first semester, okay. We we worked well

00:24:45.890 - 00:24:56.520

together, but after that, I was probably a big player in not being able to get along with her as well.

00:24:56.520 - 00:25:08.670

So we endured each other another semester, one more. And then I decided it was time for me to just resign.

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So we had a year and a half together. But those were also very exciting times because the first Women's Studies convention was held.

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And I mean, here's an example of my obstinance. Joyce did say, "You know, this is coming up. Are you interested?" "No."

00:25:32.690 - 00:25:42.090

I couldn't give her that satisfaction of that. Anyway. You cut your nose off to spite your face. But because I was so involved

00:25:42.090 - 00:25:51.350

in my own world and Women's Studies, I received the announcement in the mail, so I said, "Oh this is exciting!" and I quickly sent

00:25:51.350 - 00:26:04.820

off my name to be a delegate. Well, I was elected as a delegate. I take the paper to show Joyce and she said, "I asked you if you wanted to do that.

00:26:04.820 - 00:26:14.880

And you said no. You're not gonna get any money for me." So I said, "Okay." I went to the president.

00:26:14.880 - 00:26:26.730

And so President Trabant really was another good supporter of Women's Studies. So he gave... And there was myself and another student.

00:26:26.730 - 00:26:41.240

We were selected as Delaware student delegates. So he gave us both plane fare to get there. So... But I acknowledge that I was one of

00:26:41.240 - 00:26:56.910

the nasty players in that situation. [ML] Stubborn. [JL] Yes, stubborn. That's a good way to put it. But a lot of good things did happen. And the community of women who were

00:26:56.910 - 00:27:09.980

already involved in Women's Studies really stepped up. They recognized that the person who had come in wasn't really the best choice.

00:27:09.980 - 00:27:23.750

And so I think that it was a good growing, learning experience as well. And I don't feel that, I mean, it was a hard time for sure,

00:27:23.750 - 00:27:34.910

but I think that it helped Women Studies to become stronger. Perhaps more quickly, and to recognize what's necessary to do,

00:27:34.910 - 00:27:48.530

to become a viable, respected organization on campus. And even though it has kind of come full circle back to West Delaware Avenue,

00:27:48.530 - 00:27:59.330

at least you have the full building now. [ML] Yes, even the basement which floods on occasion. [JL] Oh yeah. [ML] Yes. And I think what's sort of interesting about that time period

00:27:59.330 - 00:28:07.250

was the classes were being taught. Some of the classes are being taught collectively as well. So that created those dialogues

00:28:07.250 - 00:28:23.450

across campus. Sort of inter-discipline conversations. And Joyce Walstedt went back to Psychology, as I understand it. And so there was a period where there

00:28:23.450 - 00:28:37.310

was sort of conversation about when that Women's Studies would continue. And in that, what year was it? 1976. Dean Gouldner sent several faculty

00:28:37.310 - 00:28:44.780

off to a retreat because there was a fear that they were not to be able to keep it going. And they came back with a plan to try

00:28:44.780 - 00:28:49.990

and sort of move forward and develop the minor. And I notice that you had a Women's Studies minor.

00:28:49.990 - 00:29:01.370

You must have been one of the earliest. So what do you remember about that transition period in terms of some of the changes? You probably were not still in the office at that time

00:29:01.370 - 00:29:13.950

[JL] No, I'd say. Do you have Joyce's years? [ML] No, I don't have it here. Sorry. [JL] I'd say in her second year was when I resigned in

00:29:13.950 - 00:29:27.500

January of that academic year. So then I got work study work, which I suppose is what my Women's Studies work had

00:29:27.500 - 00:29:37.640

turned into as well because I wasn't in my marriage any longer and I had to support myself. Let's see. I worked for

00:29:37.640 - 00:29:50.740

the Plato project then. [ML] But how did you end up with a Women's Studies minor? [JL] Well, it was part of my stubbornness as a student.

00:29:50.740 - 00:30:00.230

Because when I started out, my goal was not to get a degree. My goal was knowledge. So every semester I would choose

00:30:00.230 - 00:30:11.410

the best 3 or 4 classes. And I would, during the drop/add time, I would attend 6 to 10 classes and choose the best ones

00:30:11.410 - 00:30:23.690

that still fit my interests. And at a time I liked, because I also had to work. So every semester I got the best classes that suited me.

00:30:23.690 - 00:30:31.640

And this is when it came along. And so I took all the Women's Studies classes and you couldn't have a major. But as Jim and I figured

00:30:31.640 - 00:30:44.630

out what my curriculum was saying, I had a minor. I could have, this is stubbornness, really. I could have, had I taken

00:30:44.630 - 00:30:58.460

3 more Communications classes, gotten a degree in Communication. But I didn't want to do that. So. [ML] Shooting yourself in your foot again? [JL] Well.

00:30:58.460 - 00:31:09.740

[ML] It worked out. [JL] Right, because I probably wouldn't have taken... Well, no. It was that Language, Power and Sex, which was Elaine Showalter's class.

00:31:09.740 - 00:31:22.130

So that's the one that said Linguistics. And everybody, all of those women said, "Well, if you want to study Linguistics, Julia is the person to study with.

00:31:22.130 - 00:31:32.760

But she is very hard to get along with." And I thought at that time, "I can get along with anybody." Well, we got along.

00:31:34.270 - 00:31:50.090

[ML] So you were in Nebraska for 2 years? 3 years? [JL] 3. 3 years. [ML] And what brought you back this way? [JL] Well, I am from Delaware. I have a son. He was here. But when I came back

00:31:50.090 - 00:31:58.340

then I quickly got an offer to teach in China. So went off for another 7 months. But then I came back and got

00:31:58.340 - 00:32:09.120

a faculty position with the English Language Institute. And that's been my home base until June, when I retired.

00:32:09.120 - 00:32:18.070

[ML] And you've travelled quite extensively. [JL] That's... yeah. Yeah. I have. Music videos got me around the world to

00:32:18.070 - 00:32:35.740

start with, because I use them to teach English. So one year I went to New York, Vancouver, and Thailand on this topic of MTV and ESL.

00:32:35.740 - 00:32:45.140

But it's, yeah, it's... Linguistics has been my ticket to travel. But I think it was those early childhood years

00:32:45.140 - 00:32:55.590

of a different place every year that says, "Okay, where are we going now?" [ML] I can do this. [JL] That's right. [ML] And it's fun. [JL] Absolutely.

00:32:55.590 - 00:33:04.880

[ML] So if you look back over the years in terms of where Women's Studies was when you were embedded in it and where you think it is now,

00:33:04.880 - 00:33:14.770

what do you think in terms of what some of the most significant changes have been? [ML] Well, I think that Women's Studies is a major now for one thing.

00:33:14.770 - 00:33:35.480

And I have been always impressed when I see how the administration of Women's Studies has continued to grow. And it kind of,

00:33:35.480 - 00:33:44.360

you know, coming from both sides of it, I know how important it is to have the backbone of the support people behind you

00:33:44.360 - 00:33:52.460

because you can be doing all kinds of wonderful things. But if you either don't have the people or the money to get the people.

00:33:52.460 - 00:34:05.650

Your organization is always going to be struggling to move forward. And I feel like it's also a symbol that the University acknowledges

00:34:05.650 - 00:34:19.740

that Women's Studies is here to stay. And it does have to have the backing of staff as well as the faculty. And so far as I know,

00:34:19.740 - 00:34:33.890

Women's Studies does still work in this interdisciplinary sort of way because, I mean, our life is not one narrow channel. And that's still one of

00:34:33.890 - 00:34:43.240

the things that I really appreciate about Women's Studies. And I wonder I was reading about this new science building, Biology building.

00:34:43.240 - 00:34:57.560

And their claim is interdisciplinary work. And it seems like there are things that could be opened up in terms of Women's Studies. So I'm sure we've got

00:34:57.560 - 00:35:13.410

some people are into women's biology, [ML] In other areas. [JL] Yes. [ML] We need to sort of expand that? [JL] Yeah. [ML] And Women's Studies at UD

00:35:13.410 - 00:35:21.040

became a department a year and a half ago. At the same time that Women's Studies in other universities and colleges has been,

00:35:21.040 - 00:35:29.340

are being closed down. So I'm wondering what you think it is about Delaware here that has enabled us to stay and actually grow?

00:35:29.340 - 00:35:49.420

[JL] Hmm. I think there are still enough people who started the program who are in positions to be able to talk about it,

00:35:49.420 - 00:36:03.070

and further the support for it. And I think, you know, I'm thinking especially about Mae Carter, and Maggie Andersen.

00:36:03.070 - 00:36:14.800

They're still very influential women. And I'm sure there are others that don't pop to my mind right now, but are there to undergird

00:36:14.800 - 00:36:26.080

what Women's Studies has struggled very hard to gain. And I know that over those years from when I was

00:36:26.080 - 00:36:35.140

the office coordinator and I've seen it move around campus and, you know, what does this mean? It seemed like, "Oh, Hullihen Hall.

00:36:35.140 - 00:36:46.750

We made the big time." But things are very fluid on the University campus. So I think having

00:36:46.750 - 00:36:58.210

the autonomy of your own building, even though it may flood sometimes, you can kind of call the shots with your own space.

00:36:58.210 - 00:37:06.290

So I don't know, I kind of like the hominess of being there. Now whether... I don't know

00:37:06.290 - 00:37:16.940

what it says about respect, but I know working in ELI, we have had to create and rent 8 different facilities around town.

00:37:16.940 - 00:37:26.620

So everybody's got space problems. [ML] Yes. [JL] But you've got a building. [ML] We're busting at the seams, so that's a good thing. [JL] Yup.

00:37:26.620 - 00:37:35.540

[ML] So what do you think has been the most significant contributions of Women's Studies at UD? [JL] Well, I think it gave me backbone,

00:37:35.540 - 00:37:47.240

for one thing. It gave me the education that I needed. And I think that I'm just one of many that have

00:37:47.240 - 00:38:00.830

benefitted by Women's Studies being here at the right time and having the kind of faculty and support staff that has really taken in

00:38:00.830 - 00:38:16.060

so many different kinds of women, and shown a way to move forward. And I really appreciate the interdisciplinary aspects

00:38:16.060 - 00:38:22.420

of Women's Studies. And I don't see how it could work any other way, but that's my bias too.

00:38:22.420 - 00:38:31.310

We're all in this together. [ML] What do you think we still need to address in terms of Women's Studies?

00:38:31.310 - 00:38:49.150

(Long pause) [JL] That's a very good question. Um, my mind jumps to like libraries, but now think about libraries are moving in

00:38:49.150 - 00:39:02.180

totally different ways and everybody's got their books on their devices. Yeah. You know, I would hope that there would

00:39:02.180 - 00:39:16.520

continue to be forward-thinking, my bias, women but men could be there too. And recognizing, being in touch with what's going on in the world now,

00:39:16.520 - 00:39:36.840

and staying on the crest of that wave, and not getting stuck in ruts. [ML] Do you think that Women's Studies had an impact in terms of ELI and the work that you do with international students?

00:39:36.840 - 00:39:48.860

[JL] Well, I know that there are a number of feminists at the ELI, and I know over the years that there are many women who had come with

00:39:48.860 - 00:39:59.360

very traditional values and learned that they could do other things in their lives. And or even though they

00:39:59.360 - 00:40:07.730

may pursue the studies that they had intended, they did it with a different eye and different awareness

00:40:07.730 - 00:40:18.740

of who they are in the process. And that's always been a very exciting part of my job. [ML] Because, I have been certainly

00:40:18.740 - 00:40:25.400

seeing more international students in my classes as well. And I think it's sort of interesting, the perspectives that they

00:40:25.400 - 00:40:34.190

bring as their sort of grappling with these issues, compared to the American, traditional students that we have.

00:40:34.190 - 00:40:46.080

The conversations that we have are related to different experiences. It's very interesting. Both the young men and the young women. [JL] Well, they've been lifted out of their own community and

00:40:46.480 - 00:40:55.880

maybe they've got some wherewithal to deal with it. But many of them have been protected all of their lives,

00:40:55.880 - 00:41:13.810

and it's a big shock. But exciting. Most of them make it. [ML] Is there anything that you would like to add, that maybe we haven't touched on?

00:41:13.810 - 00:41:27.570

[JL] I just want to thank you for doing this project. I think it's very easy to have our history lost and digital now.

00:41:27.570 - 00:41:35.870

It can stay on beyond longer than we ever wanted it to. But I think it's important that... I'm glad you're going back to

00:41:35.870 - 00:41:46.280

the very beginning. Because I think even the couple years that I was there in the beginning and that second coordinator,

00:41:46.280 - 00:41:55.820

it's very easy to want to put that under the rug, but it's an important part of who we are and who we were,

00:41:55.820 - 00:42:06.590

and how we've grown and learned how to deal with the good, the bad, the ugly. As a tai chi player,

00:42:06.590 - 00:42:17.910

I was sort of reflecting that it's the Yin Yang of the start of the Women's Studies program, and I think that's the beauty of it always.

00:42:17.910 - 00:42:28.280

That it may be you're just moving forward. Everything wonderful is happening. And then there's a snag that makes you re-examine,

00:42:28.280 - 00:42:37.760

what are we doing now, and what's our best direction to go? And I just have lots of confidence in what I've seen

00:42:37.760 - 00:42:54.360

over the years in Women's Studies that it's on a roll. [ML] And now we are Women and Gender Studies. So that speaks to how we've evolved even as we move forward. [JL] Opens more doors. [ML] It does.

00:42:54.880 - 00:42:58.680

Well, thank you very much. [JL] You're welcome.