Oral history interview with Denise Hayman

Okay. So my name is present grad student at University of Delaware.

I'm a senior and I'm in history course. Would Dr. Horwitz I'm interviewing Ms. Hayman. If you could just introduce

yourself and then we can get started. Okay. So my name is Denise Hayman. I'm originally from Newark,

delaware, grew up in New York. Delaware was born in 1955. I typically don't tell my year age, but I was born in 1955, grew up in a family.

I have three brothers and two sisters. So he had what would be considered a large family, single-parent household. My family in particular,

really started in the Delaware area in terms of our history in the 190s. So we have been able to trace our parentage or grandparents

back to the 190s, either living in new work area or in iron hill or Glasgow area. So we've been around for awhile.

Attended public school in New York, which was wonderful. Went on to do my undergraduate work at

University of Delaware, master's degree at Illinois State University, and then completed my PhD at University of Illinois.

Had an opportunity to be in a lot of schools across the country. Okay, That's good to know. Well, I guess I just

wanted to take you back to your childhood and see where it all started for you. You said you had extended family.

Family grew up around new work in the Washington area, correct? Probably more well, probably more so new art. Most of my relatives even today.

I mean, we do have relatives in in Wilmington, but if I had to do to really identify my family lineage.

So I'm talking about specifically the James side of my family, which was my grandmother, and the Hayman family.

We basically all kinda started out in New York and then kind of branched out throughout the state. So believe it or not,

I know a lot of people probably don't think that about NORC, but when I was growing up, we had a sizable black community that

included new London Avenue, Cleveland, Gray Street, five or six streets in that area. And if you go back

and look at the census records, you'll see that there was approximately six to 700 black people that live in that area at one time.

So many of them came here, I guess during a time when slavery existed. My family in particular, on my grandmother's side,

my relatives were actually free. So when we begin to look at our genealogy and go back and synthesis, we found that in the 190s,

my grandfather was purchased by a, a white female who then in turn bought his freedom. And as a result,

as history identifies that if you are born to a free mother, the kids are free. So they were recorded as being mulatto free. So way before the Civil War.

On my grandmother's side in particular, her lineage was free. In terms of my grandfather, he was originally from Maryland and

his I guess it wouldn't be his great grandfather actually escaped. I'm from slavery and came north to Delaware. And again,

art history there and at New York area. So we've been, we're just been, we've transplanted there long before the Civil War and

our family has been there ever since. So I consider new home. But we do have relatives that are in the bone and

tendon and escalator in the state of Delaware. Okay. So you said you talked about your grandparents or

lab when you were younger and you said you grew up in a single-family home. So it was a single pane, single-parent families.

Single-parent home. Well, your grandparents, grandma, me unless a lot. One of the things and you might know

this from your own experience. Even in light of the fact that many black communities throughout history have always had issues of

segregation and other types of challenges fighting for civil rights. The community that I really grew up and was really like family,

although all of us were not related. We were kinda nestled in an area where we took care of each other and looked out for one another.

And because of the fact there were a lot of restrictions in terms of People being being able to have access to stores and go where they wanted to,

especially with my mother's generation and my grandmother's, not me specifically. What the community would do. All the things that they couldn't do.

Like for instance, they couldn't go on main street and go to the stores or go shopping. They created those two specific items

within the context of the community. So they had their own stores, they had a gas station, we had recreation areas and the like.

So my grandmother and grandfather specifically, my grandmother was really the matriarch. She was, you know,

well involved in community as well as her mother and her grandmother. She was active in the church, was instrumental in when

they burn the mortgage for the huge AME Church, he was instrumental in it. So she really has a very strong imprint

on my experience. You know, we grew to be extremely close. She was always like a sage like so, for example, would be, you know,

recently when Michelle Obama talked about the adage, when they go low, we go high. Well, my grandmother said that

long before Michelle Obama did. And what she would tell me is, she said you're going to encounter people in the world that sometime

we're going to kind of bring, try to bring you down. And she said, Don't ever lower yourself to their level.

And it's that same advice that Michelle Obama had. And I would always keep that in my mind because specifically in the world of work,

sometimes people kind of challenge you. And I would always remember, my grandmother would say, don't go down to their level.

So she was really a sage, was a very religious woman involved in the church. I can recall when she was.

In her 70s, you should always read the Bible. I would say to her, I save my mom. I mean, you read the Bible of 500 times, you know, is there anything in

there different than what you already know? And she said, each time I pick this Bible up, she said I learn something new every day. I had a very strong imprint.

My grandfather as well, he was a very independent man, was an entrepreneur on, in many ways. So within the community of new art,

for instance, they didn't have a cleaner where you can take your clothes and be dry cleaning. So what my grandfather did is he set up

a cleaning store where he actually didn't clean the clothes. That what he would do is the residents in the community

would bring it close to him. He would mark those clothes and they had cleaning stores in Wilmington that would take

African-American clothing and clean it. He would take the clothing to Wilmington. They would clean it and he would bring it back to his cleaning store

and that's how they get their clothes clean. He also was instrumental in driving the kids in the community to schools in Wilmington.

So schools were not integrated. And so everybody they grew up in the black community, had to go to Wilmington and

my grandfather was one of the bus drivers and taxi drivers and things such as that. So he was really, you know,

kinda seize the moment and try to figure out ways that he could earn money. And at the same time served the community. Well, I wish my

own I'm not that close with my grandparents. I mean, this in the lab, but my mom's mom is alive and then my dad's mom was allowed to only

have great grandmothers on both sides, but how many stairs and so on. As closest there and I said radically children.

So it's a lot a lot of fine over grandma sometimes. But, you know, one of the things I will say this I can't say all throughout my life,

I was real close as I got older, I began to appreciate my grandmother's stories, her experience. She was an entrepreneur.

I mean, she here's the thing. One of the challenges that many black people had in this community was working

specifically the women. There were factories in the community like FOMC, Avon. Some of those people

eventually went on to work in manufacturing or work in those factories. But up until that point, many of the black women were

required or could only, I shouldn't even say require, but we're only allowed to be domestics and the white family homes.

And how I know that as I started asking my grandmother in some of my older relatives, why did why was it that you guys were so limited in terms of work?

So for instance, all throughout my mother's year of raising us, she was a domestic, so she went and she worked in white families homes.

And that's how she raised us. And it was not easy because we were extremely poor. But one of the things that they told me,

they sit at the time, that's all the jobs that we had. They didn't we didn't have options to go do other things.

If we didn't work in the White family homes, like doing learning or cleaning, We didn't have a job. So when I was younger,

while actually probably before I was even wore, my grandmother had a short period of time work at the University of Delaware,

which a lot of black people did like, you know, they clean the dorm rooms and stuff. But she went on later

in life and this was when I was growing up. And then this is how I remember her. She worked at DuPont and she worked in the kitchen at DuPont.

Now, when you say that, it doesn't sound like it's. This fantastic job with the pond typically hires engineers,

but here's how it played to her manage. One of the things that the pond had was a pension plan and for every dollar that you put

into their savings. Okay. And this is really kind of like old school because today people don't do that as much.

But it's like a 4141 k. They would match it. And I remember my grandmother saying to me that when she started working at the pond,

she would put in like, you know, not a lot of money, but for every dollar they would match it. And she said that a lot of her

friends would say, Liz, why do you why are you giving those people your money? And what happened is when it

came time for her to retire. She was born in 1908. She retired at 65. She lived on her own.

She had her own house and she was one of the few elderly women that could actually loaned money to our grandchildren and

others because she saved her money. So it actually was too hard this to our advantage to have worked for DuPont because

when it was time for her to retire, she had a pension plan, she had health care. She was able to live on our

own and do things for her, her children and her grandchildren. She was really a sage. And in addition to that,

many of them were also entrepreneurs. So for instance, and you probably can relate to this because I did when I was at Delaware, New York,

we technically didn't necessarily have a place that you could go get our hair done like, you know, specific black hair dress.

There was never anyone in the community on Main Street, but in the black community, and my grandmother was one of them.

Many of the black women in their homes would do hair. So my grandmother would go and work at DuPont Monday through Friday,

Friday night through Sunday. She had a room in her house where she had all the bells and whistles, the hairball on it,

and straightening comb and whatever she would do over the weekend, that's what she would do. She would press air. So in

addition to the money that she would get at the Ponte working nine to five job. She also had something that she did on the weekends and many of

the black women in the community did that. So they seize the moment, okay, granted, we might not have all these options in terms of careers,

but what things can we do to add more economic power to our family? I'm sure my grandmother probably lived on that weekend later she got

from doing hair and was it was easy for her to put away money in that DuPont pension plan so that she could have something to live

on when it came time for her to retire. So here's an incoming time. So you you mentioned how there weren't like

you can visit main street. Like it wasn't really for the black community. Where did you guys go instead,

where were the places that you visit? Okay, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna kinda divide this up in problem three sections.

So it was my grandmother and mothers time where they could not go into any of those stores and do anything. And I'll give you a story in

a minute about my mom. But they could work in white home. Okay. One of my brother's generation came along.

There were still segregated schools because he went to the George Wilson community. Well, I was actually called

the New London school, but it was a colored school that's located on New London road, right across the street from

North Campus or clayton whole area. And so he went to a segregated school. But by the time it was my time to go to school,

first grade, things were integrated. So my experience was much different than my mother's and my brothers in the sense

that when I started at six years old, we could go into the stores. But to give you an example, my mom sometimes she can be a little rascal.

She used to like, so she worked they worked in white family homes starting at 14 years old and

that's how they made their money. But my mom was really a close Hall. She like to dress up and we're really nice clothes.

And she would walk on Main Street. There was a store by the name of vigorous. And anybody who's familiar with Main Street from

long ago will know about the store. And the woman the owner is store owner would put the mannequins in the window and display the clothes,

but she black people couldn't go into the store. But my mom told me one time he was walking past the store and the owner was,

I guess, in the window doing something and mom looked at the clothes she liked and she wanted to go in, but she couldn't.

Rather than just walking on, she literally told me she walked up to the window and stuck her tongue out at the woman and then walked away

while she she did it because she was made that she couldn't go into store and look at the clothes, but that's one that's

one portion and my mom used to say talk about it a lot, but she said those times were really not good for black people in Delaware.

You know. Then we transition to my brother's era where he up until my oldest brother,

up until the third grade, he went to the segregated school and then he would they went to the integrated school.

But the interesting thing is, and this is what was shared by my oldest brother who did go to Delaware, even though they weren't allowed

to attend an integrated public school. When they would have these comp, academic competitions, they would identify students

in the colored school that were really good students. And they would take them to a central location,

whether it was university or wherever, where they would compete. And how I know about this is that my oldest brother was really good in math.

And they used to take him to those competitions, to compete against the White students and he would win those competitions.

There is also something that was, I didn't know about this until just recently. It was also something in the paper where they would

have recreational athletic competitions and newer. The students couldn't be integrated like all at one event.

But they would take the students from the black community to a specific area. They would interact with the other students. And be honest with you,

this thing I was reading in the paper, most of the black students that were in that community with when all of the races, they'd have relay races

and other types of things. We would win first, second, third, all areas. So that was kinda their area. Now, when I came alone,

I did go first grade was integrated, went to I went to three schools, Central Elementary, Central Junior High School,

newark high school. Now Central is on Academy street, no longer exists because the university bought that property.

It's central and I think what's on Academy and Haynes street. They bought those two schools and I guess now they

use it for classes or something. But when I think in terms of even though we were poor, my mother was feeding

six kids on a domestic salary. And early in our years, sometimes she would really bring home $20 a day,

which basically meant that whatever food we had for that day, she would stop by the store on the way home. So it wasn't like we did.

We really never had a full refrigerator when I was growing up because we didn't have a lot of money. We didn't have insurance because working

as a domestic in white families home, you didn't have the option of having insurance, health insurance,

and all the other kind of stuff. So I do recall this that what would happen is there was a doctor by the name of Dr. Franklin.

He was white. And what they would do, We wouldn't go to his office then he would come to the black homes like

if I were sick or had a coal, he would come to the black homes and they'd make some arrangements to kinda pay him whatever amount

it was now as things got better and things start to become more integrated than we could go to the darker tone.

But I recall when we were kids, they would come to our homes and treat us so. But even though we were poor or didn't have a lot of money,

I don't know if we are re always knew that we were rich in relationships, rich in a community. I mean, we had our churches,

we had a recreation center. I've mentioned to you at a gas station. We had sports activities. The young men were

mentored by the older men in the community. They were Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, and my brother's always did that ice to get made because I always wanted

to go with them but they can't take you can't take girls or whatever. But we were rich in the community. So even though we were kind of

locked in in terms of being in that area, it didn't feel like we were being deprived of anything. My mother relates when she

was in school and this is what they had to do. So they didn't have white teachers. What they had to do was to go to

places like filling and Baltimore and Washington DC and recruit black teachers to come teach the students in the community.

And what the teachers wouldn't do back in that time. They would stay in the black families homes

and which is part of their salary. They would go to the churches. So teachers from those areas would come live in the black

community in new art, teach the kids, and help them with their assignments. Now one of the things that my mom

always raved about, animals, always happy about. She said, They told us everything. So they told us Latin,

mathematics, everything. So they were as competitive as other students because they would get the best teachers.

And sometimes the assumption is that's not true. But if you look at some of the people that had grown up

in the community and going on. We've had UN ambassadors. Obviously my, both of my brothers were professional football players,

but they were also good students. They sometimes athletes get this perception that they're like dumb jocks or whatever.

And when people talk to me about that, I said I don't know anything about that. I said when my brother used to play high school sports

and they did everything, they did baseball, basketball, football, track. They would come home at night,

let's say at ten o'clock, sit down at the kitchen table and do their work now. They were doing physics.

Okay. Trigonometry, whatever. So it wasn't like they were in a lower level courses and,

you know, one of my brothers went on and on scholarship. Joe paternal at Penn State for football. Then my oldest brother Conway

stayed in New York and went to the University of Delaware and obviously went on and do some things with pro ball as well.

So it was a lot of folks in that community. We had folks that play baseball. Hubbard, who knew who when he passed away suddenly,

I think it was Hank Aaron came to his funeral. There were a lot of athletes in that community that

someone to school and some didn't. But I think if in today's world you probably would be actually shocked to see

how many people in that community actually went on and did things athletically and academically. Real positive thing there has been lawyers.

My uncle, one of my uncles grew up in the community. He went on to be a pharmacist. So it's just a wealth of I,

this think of assets, role models and just things that that community day they encouraged us all to go on and do,

you know, do some positive things. So I know all the positive stuff is going on, but we can erase this. I did. There was also a racial tension

during that time. So when it comes to like your experience in Newark and racial tension, you experienced wasn't anything

like at the restaurants you went to or like any police runners that you could remember. Tell me about human challenges.

So I would think where we found so first and foremost, because I'm one of your questions on your sheet was that we have white friends.

I think we had the most white friends and I would say this for mostly anyone in the community when we were

in like first through 12th grade. You know, obviously, one is because for me the school was integrated. My brother's side that, you know, they played

with other white classmates. And the other part that was a dynamic of this is that some of our families work in their home.

So I can remember to people that I was in classes with or went to school with. My mother actually worked in her home

and they were sitting in the same classroom. So that was kind of a different kind of dynamic in the sense that here

was your mother's employer, sun. But in addition to that, because she worked in your homes, I kind of knew all kinds of things

that under normal circumstances, you don't really want to know about what's going on in people's house because she would come home and tell me.

So there was and I'm not going to say the name of the brothers were there were two brothers. One was my age and one was a little older,

the one that was my pages in my class, my mom would tell me things about them that, you know, I never said anything but, you know,

it's kinda funny but I honestly am I growing up, let's say when I was in high school, middle school and whatever I will say this.

Whenever we had challenges with like, let's say classmates in regards to race, it was typically with students who are economically,

we're doing no better than us. And I'm just going to say they were typically what Sometimes the world would say, the poor white students.

And they live in certain areas in New York like then it was George reads village or whatever. Those were the students that would cause

the inward we would get in fights with et cetera, et cetera. I can remember having numerous debates in class

is about the issue of slavery. And one in particular, and at that particular time, I didn't know as much about

black history as I do now and I wish I had, but I got into a debate and I typically, because they want a lot of black students. So let's say for incident newer Cai,

there were 2200 students in that school and other 2235 were black. So it was really a very small number, but we were real close.

But typically I was always in the class the only black person by myself every now and then we might have one other black person.

And we really didn't have a lot of blacks classmates until we got to high school because we had a Black History teacher

used to teach Black History, believe it or not, and all of us took the class. But anyway, I remember

once I was in a class, I was by myself. I thought it was a decent student. We got into this discussion about slavery. One of the white students said to me, Well,

you're complaining about slavery, et cetera, et cetera. But you want your people talking about people from

Africa were the ones who put you on those boats to send you back here to be a slave. And I remember when he said that at the time,

I didn't have the best answer. But as I've matured and learn more, one of the things that I wish I had known that at that time,

it says a lot about not knowing your history. What I found out later in life after working for I worked at was a docent at

the disabled Museum in Chicago. And they had a wonderful display of Africa and whatever. But what I didn't know at

that time when I was in school is that there were actually kings and queens. African queens who fought off the people from England,

America, Portugal, Spanish, who wanted to take. Slaves from Africa and bring them back in and enslave them.

And I didn't know that at the time. And most of the time we don't know it because only thing we hear about is that Europeans went to Africa,

loaded folks up on a boat and bottom back through the middle passage and put them in slavery. But when I was working at

the saddle and doing some history and preparing for that, I did find out that there were in Zynga, who was an African Queen who

did fight off the Portuguese and other people to try to prevent them from taking this lays back. Obviously, the Europeans had

more firepower and do things that the Africans couldn't do. But I wish at that time I had known that because I could've come back

and said, well, you know, not everybody was in agreement with this chattel slavery and bring people over to America.

So that was typically the challenge. We did have fights because someone, sometimes people would call a person's name. And it was usually the board,

The Men Who young man who would get into fights. I didn't have a lot of encounter with police. And it's really different.

And I'll be honest with you, the way in which police interact now with African-Americans that we see on TV was

not what I recall when I grew up. The only time that I ever remember something really being negative was in ninth 1968

when my brother was at University of Delaware. He was a student. That was when civil

unrest and a lot of college campuses, and I guess they were protesting on the campus. University of Delaware, it

did have a protests. The Black students did shut down the administration building, Black Student Union, et cetera.

You'll hear about that. But I remember they were protesting in two things came from that one, my brother said that when they

were protesting, it was like around six or seven o'clock. He said one of the policemen said to him, why thought has 66 o'clock,

all the ends were supposed to be inside and not out walking around. That was one example and then another would be,

I don't know actually what happened, but one of the police officers hit my oldest brother and the head with a billy club and

put a little gash in his head. I guess they were protesting on campus. So those are the only two circumstances. The things that they do now that you see on

TV with black people in general, black men in particular, we didn't have that as an issue. They might ride past this or whatever,

but I don't ever remember us literally, and I'll be honest with you being afraid of police. And I was telling some white

colleagues of mine this, I said the only time I ever was afraid of police or at in the past was, for instance, if I'm writing in my car

and I know I'm driving over the speed limit. I know there's a possibility that I could be stopped and given a ticket. But in this day and age,

I'm afraid just the idea of driving while black. And I never have had that feeling. And I grew up

in predominately white environments, lived in predominant white environments. But in this day and age that the dynamics are much

different than they were. You know, it hasn't been in the past. You talked about two challenges on campus. I think my oldest brother probably had

more because they closed down the administration building and there wasn't some racial strife. And that was commonplace for

most campuses because they were protesting civil rights. The Vietnam War, equal rights for women. So everybody was involved.

It wasn't just so many black students. But when we were challenged at Delaware. So by the time I got to Delaware, a lot of the things that you guys have now,

we're actually at an outgrowth of my brothers and his classmates protesting. So for instance, they were instrumental in getting a black

studies program there. The Center for Black culture, that when I was there it was called the minority

center was an outgrowth of that. A lot of the programs, like the only thing that they had then was the upper bound program.

But a lot of the programs to kinda help and support underrepresented students were for an outgrowth of those protests in the 60s are challenges

were had to do with the fraternity and sorority. So for instance, fraternities and sororities have

rituals in terms of membership. And I recall a couple of things. So one in particular with the guys, the mega sci-fi pledges with

some times where like army fatigues and black boots. When I was on campus and able to spray paint like a black gold brick.

And they'd have a gold brick in your hand and you know, they've done their little activities or steps.

The perception was once they were, they were going through the mall area. People perceive them as a militant group running

around with rubric because they had no knowledge of. Black fraternities and sororities and whatever.

So that was one myth for our sorority in particular. So we would have first predominately black sorority on campus.

And prior to us was only one other group was the omega psi phi. All of us kinda plays the same time.

So we had a mega sci-fi was first, Delta Sigma Theta was second. We had Kappa, Alpha Psi and then an AKA, and then five sigma.

But our challenge with university was we played for ten months to create that organization. And we did that

with foreign national chapter, which is in Washington DC, et cetera, et cetera. But when it was time for

our organization to be recognized, the university did not recognize us right away. In other words, in order for

us to do anything on campus, like to reserve rooms and whatever it is that we wanted to do. The campus had to recognize us.

And the challenge that the white for a White sororities head with us is that they were afraid that we were going

to take their money or not take them money, but take some of their resources and other types of things if they recognize us. And what ended up happening was

our subroutine advisor who was wonderful. We were on our way to Washington DC to go to a conference related to the sorority.

Our security advisor just told them that if you don't recognize this organization, I'm going to bring it up

to our national chapter, which could have resulted in the university having some civil rights issues or whatever.

But they ended up recognizing us right before we went. From that point on. We were fully engaged

and involved in the campus. So we didn't have like blatant things that they weren't people telling us we couldn't go to

restaurants, et cetera, et cetera. But there were others sometimes covert things that people would do to challenge our experiences on campus.

Interesting when you said, taking it back to the, how the police aged band and how they treat us now,

like, I would think it would be worse back then, but she said it wasn't as bad. This is what I recollect.

So I'm not going to say that Newark police didn't harass people. But in my experience

as a black female and what I heard from my peers, be they male or female, that wasn't something that we saw.

It is more, much more scary now than ever. I never, because if I had to think of in my, in my mind's eye, who police might challenge

would be a male, a black male. Okay. I never have put myself in a circumstance where they would ever challenge a black female.

But after they Sandra Bland incident. And I'll give you an example about myself. After that, I started thinking, well, you know, now is this

just an isolated incident? So I'll give you an example of my own experience in Illinois in 2018.

So it's been about three years now. Three or four years. I was riding home from work and I worked a significant amount

of miles from where I live. So I had to, you know, it was a long commute. I've been doing this. I've been working at this place for

at least 89 years. And as I said to you, the only time that I was fearful of a police officer stopping me is when I

might drive a little faster than when I shoot and sometimes SAP it. But I was coming home one night and the highway was down to two lanes,

one line rather because they were doing some construction. So all of us were kind of maybe driving 45 miles per hour as opposed

to 70 or 80 or whatever you normally do. And I recall that when the road split back to like two or three lanes,

there was a police officer like on the left-hand side of the room and I've seen you police car is the state police all the time,

you know, drive it back and forth. But this one day, we all there, we're all moving. I watched the police car after I pass it,

flip on the lights and I'm thinking, okay, Somebody's got a problem not thinking it was me. He pulls up behind me with

the lights and I'm thinking, okay, what did I do? You know? Because we were driving like slow, so it wasn't like I was rabid fan,

so pulled over. And he came to the passenger side of the window and said to me, he said, You know why

I stopped, you don't do. And I said no, I don't. And he said, Well, somebody called and said that you were driving a radically.

So I looked at him and I said, Well, sir, the road is being repaired. There was only one lane. Everybody had to do like around 40 or 45.

I said How could I be driving the radically? I said, Well, who called and he said to me, You know how they call. And I sat there and I said to

myself, in my mind, I was thinking, no, I don t know how they call it because nobody has ever called on me.

But what I really think diffuse the circumstance and one is because I didn't get testy. But before he came to the car,

I had my cell phone and I had put my cell phone on the on my door. Yeah. So it but it was turned over so you couldn't

see whether the phone was on or off and, you know how when police officers come to your car, they look when they're looking around.

And I really think he thought that maybe I had someone on the phone saying listen or taping it or whatever.

And so then he looked at me and I looked up after he said that I looked up in the rearview mirror in some way,

he must have contact with two additional state police car. So two more cars pulled up behind him. And I'm sitting here thinking to myself,

now, what's going to happen to me? So here I am coming home from work. Nobody really knows and I'm out on the road because I'm driving home from work.

And it wasn't like in a place that's highly populated. And he walks back to his car with

my driver's license and whatever. And I don't know whether he must have told those guys to go on and it comes back to me and he says,

You didn't just hand back my stuffy. So what I want you to pull up, like maybe another 100 feet. I complied.

And then when we did that, he came back and he gave me back my stuff and he said, Okay, I'm just going to

let it be a warning now. But I didn't do anything. I had never had a police officer say to me, You know how they call?

I don t know. I think my phone helped me. I also think that I had on my driver on my rearview mirror, my hang tag from work.

Because I remember him saying to me, Well, what are you doing here? I said I worked out here. He said you work on your inside.

Yeah. I'm on my way home from work and hang tag was there. And obviously I had on clothing.

It was work-related. After that experience and that was in 2018. I said to myself, This is no more

a circumstance where I have to be concerned about just driving fast. They're going to stop me because they can run your plates.

And he probably ran two plates solid. They weren't from that area is not predominantly black and pulled me over because

I wasn't doing anything. And he says to me, Well, somebody called it. I've been driving back and forth on that roof forever.

And now one day somebody calls and he goes, Well, you know how they call. If I had said to him maybe something more derogatory or gotten angry,

who knows what could have happened? I really believe in my heart of hearts that there's a different kind of challenge for us in today's world.

I don't want to get into politics too much, but I think some of the things that have happened over the last four or five years

have opened up segments of our society that maybe before used to be real quiet about how they felt about underrepresented people,

black people in particular. And now it's like fair game, you know. So it was just different and we did not have I mean,

we have students cause the inward and that kind of stuff, but we didn't really have some of the challenges that I see now.

I know one of the things and not give me an example. My oldest brother before he passed and he passed away in 2020,

but before he passed away, I remember this in 2019. He said to me, he said, You know, the things now that are happening on

campus are almost like it was when we were at Delaware where you're protesting because of Black Lives Matter and whatever.

And I said to him, it feels that way. And he said to me, I said to him, So I said, Well, what time we got to Delaware?

We didn't have to worry about Black Studies or anytime. He said to me, he said because we took care of that for you.

We protested. We demanded things, we close down the administration. So by the time I got to

Delaware and he's like six years my senior, everything was there. But I even know it because I've worked on college campuses all, you know, all my life,

that the racial and tribal dynamics have changed really in the negative in terms of, you know, a lot of stuff that's going on,

on campus and in the communities. Like University of Delaware before you got to college, what like as a young girl growing up,

What was your dream job? And like what was your like your major or what you thought your major

was going to be with you? Well, I think that and I saw this on your on your questions and I was trying to think, well, when I really thought about it.

And this was when I was really, really, really young. I think originally I wanted, I liked biology and chemistry,

and I was good in biology and chemistry. I wanted to actually be a veterinarian. But as time went on, for whatever reasons, either because I stopped

liking animals or whatever, I changed and I wanted I always wanted to probably be in a profession where I can help someone.

So that was probably the biggest thing. But the thing that was even bigger than that was I never felt in my mind, my heart of hearts

anywhere that I was not going to go to college. It was just a given. The thought was, whatever the major is

gonna be, career, whatever. The primary thing is, you're going to go to school and you're gonna do something. And so that was just always there.

I think if I had to do it over. So I worked in higher rate as IT administrator to help students navigate the campus.

And I've loved that. I've seen a lot of successes with many of my students. Some people who came from

meager beginnings as I did. Some didn't have parents, some dead, whatever. And they've gone on to do well,

make much more money than me. I remind them of that sometimes like I helped you and now you're making a

million dollars a year or whatever. I think I always wanted to help. Many of us in African-American communities

have that mindset. Because we see that if we can give back to our communities that oftentimes we grow and then the community groups.

So that was always something that I wanted to do. But I think if I had to do it over again or do something in addition,

if I had the energy and time, I also probably would want to be a faculty person. And this is something I

think an ideal dream that came later. If I didn't teach a course in my chosen profession, which would be student affairs,

academic affairs. I would probably want to teach black studies because in my spare time I've done a lot.

I talk to you about Ben and dosing at disable museum. And I've done a lot of history related things on my own.

And some of us because of this, the love of black history, but also because I see that black students in particular in Austin,

there's a void in them not really knowing about the contributions that African Americans have given to this country. And one of the things that was really,

it was a happy feeling, but it also was one that made me really think that maybe there's something else I could

do was one time I was at disabled and they bought in a group of elementary kids, primarily boys.

And I was doing a presentation that they had. They had this wonderful, It's probably like 16 foot would mahogany carving that they have

in this museum that goes from slavery times until the Civil Rights Movement. And I was explaining this to

the kids and I've watched how excited they were about learning about their history. They were smart. And I just thought in my mind,

especially the young man. I'm looking at these young men now at this age and there was no reluctance on

their part to hold back. But then fast forward to then become teenagers and young men. And you see all this negativity.

And I just thought in my mind, if there was a way that we can continue to feed them information about their own

self-worth and had them become more engaging, maybe they would not have some of the challenges that they have now. So it's kind of a mixed bag.

I mean, I still do things. I don't do as much as I did when I was working, but I think I

would I would like black history, go back and get a black history certificate or some other kind of degrees. So I could teach black history.

As we talk about how big of an impact the black community played on you're gone up. You chose the University of Delaware.

Why not? Did you have a look at they'll like overstate or HBC? You actually, I did.

And I actually submitted my application to attend Howard and I'll tell you what the competition was. So the university was first of

mine or became top choice for a couple of reasons. One, when I was in high school starting in

tenth grade and my older brother similarly, Delaware had upper bound program, which basically meant that we could go to campus in

the summer to do something related to college and learn about cars. Now here's the thing. Living in new art.

To be able to go to the campus for three weeks or six weeks in the summer was wonderful because there was nothing to

do in New York at all. So that was, that was like sending us away someplace to like summer camp.

And the good thing about it was, you know, obviously they had people from my hometown, Newark, but they also bought kids in from Wilmington,

from downstate Delaware and whatever. So we got a chance to meet other people from across the state. And I started doing that in tenth grade.

And every summer we went back until I started attending Delaware in my freshman year. So by that time,

we had built like a wealth of friends. My oldest brother, similarly, many of the people that I place my subroutine with were folks that were in

that upper bound program. They are still to this day. We're close friends or associates. We went to school together,

still stay in touch. And so that was really why Delaware left an imprint on my mind, number one, but I did apply to Howard,

submitted my application and we call this vividly, waiting and waiting. And I had already done what I needed to do with Delaware.

And I decided to call Howard one day. This was in the summer of this before we were supposed to go to school because I said I haven't

heard from these people and I don't know what's going on. And when I call Say to me, Denise,

unfortunately we lost your application. I would have to fill that out. And it was late in the summer. And by that time it was like,

I'm not going to try to go by that time you need money and kind of preparing. Your university ended up being the place,

but I don't have regrets. One of the things I sent you, this thing that my brother route that you might

not have been a little difficult to read, but one of the things that he put in there, and I agree, What I learned about the University

of Delaware after leaving. First and foremost, it was always part of my life living in New York. We used to walk through

there to go to school. We used to be one of the fraternities, had a kitchen in the back of the fraternity and we would walk

as kids up and down the sidewalk going to school. And I used to be one of the shifts in that kitchen.

I remember it is clear as day, he used to make us pastries. So when we would come home like around three or four o'clock and we

walk we really weren't supposed to be back at. We'd be walking along that sidewalk. He would come out and give us pastries.

I remember my oldest brother used to take me to Delaware, walk me onto campus and talk about the school.

But one of the other things that I realized after leaving there because, you know, sometimes when you're in

an environment you don't have appreciation for it. There has not been a place that I've gone since I

left that people have not raved about the academics at that school. When I say that, I'm not and I don't bring it up.

I don't say Well, university Dell was a wonderful school as soon as I tell them What undergrad I attended,

they said that that's a great school. So I think in terms of academically, having that experience was wonderful. You know, obviously I did it in my hometown.

I didn't live at home. I lived on campus. So even though I was still in the town, I was still away from home because of campus life and my home

life are entirely different, which you know, because we did parties and things that couldn't do at home. So after you apply delaware,

like, Was there any obstacles you had to face or any barriers you have to face getting into. Now, you know the,

the wonderful thing about being part of that upper bound group. That was the best transition and orientation that we could ever

have had to that campus. Because when we got the campus, we knew the campus. We're familiar with the campus.

The folks that worked in an office connected us to the financial aid, everything that we needed. So it wasn't like it was unfamiliar with,

which is really what made it easy to be a student there. And my own professional experience I've been I've

directed programs like that and I think that's really probably one of the best ways to one, recruit students to attend

school and to keep them there. Like in terms of retention, like having programs that students can participate in the summer,

meet other students. You probably have a similar feeling with basketball because you probably came and had been

with some of your peers, as opposed to coming to campus as a single student and just trying to feel your way around.

I mean, that was like 101% of the things that I think was the greatest thing that could happen because it helped

me learn about myself and meet other people at the same time. So we didn't we didn't have a lot of obstacles.

People were very supportive. Probably one of the biggest challenges that we didn't have a lot of black faculty.

Dr. Newton was one of the main for Black Studies Program and, and he had folks and within his his area, the person that really proudly

had the biggest impact I think on it. Just negotiating a campus was really our sorority advisor. So after my freshman year, my sophomore year,

we started we pledge Agnes Green, she had worked at other schools. She went to an HBCU, she went to North Carolina ANT and all

of the black women that helped us seek our admission to Delta Sigma Theta had all gone to HBCUs, they had gone to Howard,

North Carolina and T Shaw, All the black Elizabeth City, all the black causes. So we were actually pledged

by black women who attended HBCU. So that in itself was a different kind of challenge. And when I tell people

about their experiences, two things. So there were 33 areas that I think black women impacted my life and had

some significance and started first with my grandmother and my mother and say my arms. So living in new art, my grandmother,

mother and extended female family helped me to identify, you know, my strong points, how I needed to function in

the world specifically as an African-American in light of the fact that sometimes you might have challenges in regards to your

Ethnicity or being female. But they weren't necessarily educated women, but they knew the nuances of, you know, what it's like to be in

a segregated environment, integrated, et cetera. So that was one piece when I went to Delaware and pleasure

sorority because before that I actually thought this rule is only for white females because I didn't see that example in my everyday life.

But when we got to campus and started doing some exploration and Agnes was working there. She's in the Dean of Students office.

She actually helped with that transition through the university in the sense of preparing us for the professional world.

One of the things that we were always told that what one delta does all Deltas to do. So for instance,

if I'm doing something that's really negative, let's say I'm drunk on the street and someone

knows that I'm a member of Delta Sigma Theta, that perception is that all Deltas are doing the same thing. It was like, kinda like group

thought or think rather that you had to represent your organization yourself in a positive way. So she prepared us for that.

And the other black women from all those HBCU, some of them are doctors, some of them were engineers.

So they weren't unlike my mother and my grandmother were they were limited in terms of career options.

These black women weren't. They opened her eyes up to other professions and other things we could do.

So that's the second group of black women's. So then when I graduated and went into the world of work, a lot of those professional interactions

that I had at Delaware specifically what agonists green continue. So for instance, when I'm in the world of work and we haven't worked challenges,

things that you don't expect. I would utilize agonists. I call on the phone and say, here's what's happening at work.

What do you suggest that I do and she would give advice. What happened was from that point on other

black women that I would meet. I might not even know them that well, but I would use those same skills and utilize their resources that they could help

me navigate the world of work. So there were three different areas with my grandma, my mom and my grandparents being

on campus and Agnes being revised and a sorority advisers. And then in the world of work, utilizing all those women,

that kinda helped me negotiate the world of work much better than I would've if I didn't have those experiences. So I wouldn't trade that in for the world.

In terms of having that experience. It wasn't something that I expected or new what's going to happen, but it did. And now I can kind of go back and reflect on

what impact it's had on me as a professional, as a female. So that if there are things that I did learn, I can pass them on and give them to

other people that might be beneficial. As we talk about the different leaders in your life and didn't like the impact of the adults in your life?

James middle and you mentioned him and as I told you on that first phone call, I met James knew when he came to our class and he Well,

Dr. Horwitz interviewed him for. So did he play a role before you, before Agnes Greene played a huge role in your life and you

said you pledge your sophomore year, correct? Right. So your freshman year, the knee up and do yourself and what you before you may use

green was David knew and I figured, like you could look at or go to and talk to on our campus if there are any issues. Well, here's the thing.

So with Dr. Newton, I think my first-class I took with him may have been my sophomore year, junior, senior night my senior,

but I'm a junior, sophomore, and junior year. The thing that was really instrumental but him obviously the first positive thing was just having

some a black studies department on campus because a lot of campuses didn't have that. We even had a black studies course

in high school in New York, believe it or not. But he is very astute, I think, in terms of

racial politics and the challenges. And I remember having numerous conversations with him about that. Not only as a student.

After I graduated, I came back to Delaware and I'll tell you what some of the things that happens. So one of the concerns that I had

after I graduated and Dr. Newman was still there. Was that the university and I'll just say this,

the perception with the people in the community that was still living there. And those of us who grew up in that community,

the new loan in Cleveland Avenue area is that the university was beginning to encroach on that community. In other words, they were buying

a property to build dorms and other residence halls. So an example would be, and this is kind of historical perspective.

Where you're north campuses. Now when I was there it was Christiana towers and go I can't remember the Christiana towers and

pin cater where pancake batter is. Now. That used to be all black family homes. All in that area,

including my own relatives and other people in the community. And now this obviously this was before I was a lab.

I may not even been born than I was probably a little, little, little person. The university brought that property from black people who

lived in that community. They used to call that area down at the hollow because it was down near the creek. The University brought that property from

the black families and built pin Kader. Now, the I don't know whether I don't want to say the rumor is,

but based on oral history, many of us were told that those, that land was bought from the black families there for

a much cheaper price than what it was really worth. Okay. A lot of people don't know that. So all that area down there were

black families that lived in and my grandmother lived down there, her family, et cetera, et cetera. So when I graduated from Delaware,

many of us we're still concerned about that because we saw little by little that the property was being purchased and used

for stuff related to the university. I came back to campus and actually I remember having a loan extended conversation with Dr.

Newton at the time. President Pete Bozell was the president UD. And through conversations with Dr. Newton in letters that I

sent to the university, they actually started creating something to like either committees are groups of graduate students

to help document the history and some other types of things. So a lot of the stuff like this class in particular was

an outgrowth of my sorority and me, but mostly me kind of spearheading this, wanting to document the first black sorority on this campus.

And as a result, it morphed into this class and some other things. So this has been alone. I don't want to call it a fight,

but an interested I've had for a long time, Dr. Newton was instrumental in making me aware of what the challenges were

and some of the things you have to do. And he he considers himself controversial. So he's not someone that and I'm sure you probably saw

that from the discussion ahead and he'll tell you that he's not someone as mouse and sits back. Basically, I would talk to him

about all the different things. What could we do, whatever, and he would give me some directions, so he was beneficial.

We did not really have black faculty that were probably as involved as we want it. And I'll be honest with you,

the people who probably had the most impact with us day-to-day. Where the black staff, so you're talking about agonists green.

There used to be someone in admissions name, Richard Wilson. He passed away. And then Vince Oliver used to be over at where

it was now it's called the Center for Black culture, that was called the minority center. A lot of the administrative people

were instrumental in kind of helping us navigate that campus. Because there were more of them than there were faculty members.

Excluding the people in black studies. The other thing in Black Studies thing which I marveled at, one, and it was actually a good course.

One of Dr. Newton's faculty persons was a white male. And he taught that black history like he was a black person.

And I sit there marble because I'm like, well, how does this man know all this? I remember what time he was teaching something

about the black church and he was saying, we know the common response and whatever. And I'm looking at this man thinking, what is this man know about calling response.

But he did a good job. Was multi-ethnic and kinda open-minded and it wasn't like we were trying to call

anybody like racist or whatever. But it was just trying to integrate us into and do inclusion. And it keeps us as part of

the mix in terms of things that were going on, on campus. So it's funny you say that a white man was

teaching black culture like I would look at it as like, how does he know about it? You have to meet each other. He he knew it.

I'm going to ask next time I talk to that document. I don't remember his name because I only took one class from him but I'm

going to ask them his name, but he did a good job. So it wasn't always faculty was probably more administrators.

You know, obviously Dr. Newton was gonna be instrumental in key to everyone because most black students would take a black studies course.

So even, but even if it's by default, he had, there was another professor who did something on African because I took that,

I took that class too and I think I still have that book. So he had a variety of people like African instructors and white instructor.

So it was really inclusive and multi-ethnic. Long before people were even thinking about trying to do that. So as we were

talking about University of Delaware, you mentioned how can cater and Christiana towers. Mainly for black students

that I read that in Q2, we had to be articles each week and he said there was a certain like North Campus. I want to say what it's called.

Yeah. I didn't know. It said that it was for black students. Like most of the vaccines

live live in that area. But maybe it was, maybe I heard it wrong, but was there a specific part of campus where like specific dollars where

the glycine is day one now when I when my freshman year freshman year, because I went I went live. Most of us I thought I could be wrong.

We lived on East Campus, which I don't even think you have those dorms anymore. We had Gilbert I lived in Gilbert

be Gilbert it a, B, C, and D. I live in Gilbert be there was Russell and Harrington. So we lived and

I don't know where the oldest students center is. You've got to Students Center on East Campus. You still have their students

and on East Campus, he's campuses near Academy street. Perkins student-centered? Yeah.

Perkins. Okay. So when we were there, we call it Perkins. Only know if we call it. We probably did call Perkins.

I couldn't anyway, most of the black people that when I was in school freshman year, so I lived in that area.

We move my sophomore year to Christiana towers and there were people who live there. I'm not sure about

pin kit or whether they had a lot of black students because I didn't really go to pin care that much. But in Christiana towels,

a lot of people that I came to school with, we were there and then I moved back to my junior and senior year, I moved back to

East Campus because we were pledging and whatever else. And that's where, you know, when I graduated, we were on East Campus,

so I don't know if if there ever was any. I'm trying to think. Maybe I was out of that loop. I don't ever remember us

thinking primarily that there was one place, there were a lot of black students. There were a lot of black students in Gilbert,

but they may have just been by coincidence. I think, I think in the article it doesn't sit east north campus. So when you're looking at but you know what?

We didn't I don't think we had a problem with it. We'd like, I mean, it was like you saw it wasn't like we were like,

Whoa, why they put us right here where all the blank. We were glad we want him to see all her friends and, you know, whatever.

So it wasn't an issue. And I think, you know, be honest with you, I've worked on other campuses, that dynamic occurs to wear.

You know, there's a lot of black students in a certain tower on a certain floor. I don't know if it's designed that way or is this coincidentally?

By now? I don't when I was a freshman, like all living in a dorm my freshman year, I cannot live off campus. My freshman year. It wasn't me.

It wasn't mixed like it wasn't like a one area of campus, but it was majority glass-like, it's believed makes now, like,

I would say that did I did stay an off-campus my summer freshman year because we had a program also where you'd like the athletes will

be here in the summer and mingle with different students, but isn't mixture. Now. It's not a place where it's like mostly black students living.

Yeah. I don't know. Obviously, I think for us it was important and I'll say this because being on campus at least then,

had a different dynamic than living in a black community, grown up in a black community. Now, we, I grew up in a black community,

but I was surrounded by predominantly white community. But there were some camaraderie being able to see your classmates

and other black students. Because then when I was in school it was 22 thousand black, 22 thousand students at UD.

And of that, I think 300s were black. So it wasn't like a large percentage of black students. So and obviously most of

my association friends or people who I met through upper bound and college try or whatever. So that was really like a real

positive experience for us. You mentioned the Student Senate Perkins book. Was that the only

students and not always true but no, I saw that on your list. Treebank didn't exist. Actually turbine, which is next edges to be like a church.

Yes, a church connected, There's a church connected to Jupiter bond, like right next to it. Yet, when we were

in school, that was a church. There was no student-centered. They put that up. I don't remember the exact year,

but I remember when I came back home once I said, Oh, they added something onto that. The only place that we had was Perkins.

So any activities that we did, we had events that we were going to celebrate, Black History, whatever dances or

whatever it was all done in percuss Perkins Students Center meetings the whole nine yards, they weren't two or three.

You guys actually for a difference, other difference would be none of us lived off campus. Everybody lived on campus until we graduated.

You know, maybe you might have one or two people. But for the most part, everybody lived on campus.

That dynamic has changed for most campuses across country where it's more affordable for students to live off campus now

and then for them to live on campus. But the negative part for me or not, so positive pieces that I've seen students from the campus encroach

on the black community. And I'll give you an example. Someone told me this, I didn't see it. So where I was at church once I was home.

And there's a home home of a black family who I knew that they were renting it out to students. And someone told me

that in May right before graduation, Whatever students were living in their whoever was living in there, they hung a sheet outside

the window that said, Mom and Dad, thanks. Thanks for introducing me to the ghetto. And in all the time I've ever done,

I knew the person who lived in the house, the person's house, whose house it was. They probably have passed away in one of their relatives was just running up.

We'd never perceived at places. And it has the ghetto. Now. They probably do because it

wasn't posh and whatever. But I think for us who grew up there, that we never perceive it as such. So that's why for some like I sent you

two copies of those two markers. So once for the church, I I spearheaded all of that in conjunction with

two people that I met, one of my cousins and it's somebody else I grew up with. We wrote those.

And for me, what we thought and believe in our heart of hearts. We're kinda like the last generation

that has lived in that community. And we know that once we're gone, just like a lot of other black communities across this country.

Agenda fight it. They have all these new homes. But if you don't know anything about that community yield,

never know that black people used to live there. One of the things that I had in my heart of hearts of mine,

I might not be here in the flesh or be here to be able to talk about this community. But this marker is going to

describe actually who lived here when they started living here and the contributions that they had this community,

you know, people will only now be able to see it through pictures and other stuff. They won't be able

to actually have that experience. But it was a thriving community. Some of us say they regenerate it. We sometimes wonder why they

couldn't have regenerated by that community when we live there. So, you know, all of us who kinda moved away because still be

living in that community. So it's just a lot of challenges. You know, one of the other things and she's going to be she's

one of the folks that was being interviewed. Inky Wilson who was the councilman for that? Only black councilman that we help that area of voted in

to be a counseling at new art. He built some of those houses there. He built Terry manner. So there's some houses in

that community that are still there and they're all kinda like ranch style on a slab. He built those houses.

The reason why he built those houses is because when the Black men came back from the war, the housing industry was not integrated,

so they didn't have any place to live. And so that they can have a black community. They could come back to our community. He built those houses,

so people in that community to have some place to live. And that's rich history. You know, people don't know that.

So he was a councilman. He built that those houses. He gave a lot of the kids in the community jobs.

He fought for civil rights and other types of things. But people won't know that if they hadn't never grown up in Bay Area.

Information you get and I know you know what? I was looking at your question. I mean, I I've jotted things down, but there's so much that I said

I'm tackled be able to tell Paris all this stuff. I'm trying to get it all out. There's just so much, you know,

and I'm just one person, other people who have different perspectives and different experiences. And what my biggest fear is,

we're doing this orally, is that black communities, not just ours, we typically have passed on our history in an oral way,

which oftentimes gets lost. Because we don't write it down. If we do talk about it, we talk about it amongst ourselves.

We're not writing it down into books, so it can be documented in my biggest fear specifically for my community,

is that that history is going to be lost. And no one's ever going to know that we even existed. And when I think about all the folks

that have come out of that community had gone to university or other schools and done really great things. You know, it I guess it just bothers me

in a sense that I'm saying to myself that if I do nothing else, I'm going to try to document it as much as this as I can.

I'm looking at the questions now and you you've covered a whole lot of questions, but me a whole lot of questions and one answered.

I'm trying to figure out, I met, I met the campus life now. And one thing I really want to know is how dating happened in the integrated,

where they're like interracial couples that you guys would like. It was like frowned upon back then or was it normal?

Or like well, now, I will probably say this primarily. So even though we weren't on a predominately white campus

in a predominantly white community. We were still kind of insulated herself by being he was black. Yeah.

I don't recall. Then there probably were people who did do this, but I don't recall within

the context of the folks that I went to school with and knew any interracial dating. Now I'm not going say there wasn't,

but we didn't see any. So most of us were either dating each other, you know, other black students or whoever

or someone we met through a student, somebody came to a party that new ones who are friends or was their cousin or

one of those kind of things. So we didn't I didn't see a lot of interracial dating, but I will say there's

no reason for me not to talk about this in my own personal circumstances. One of my brothers, not my oldest one, my brother Gary, did Mary,

and wasn't interracial relationships. I have a couple of relatives that are biracial. Okay. So I have a biracial nephews

and nieces and whatever. And that was before he even went to college. Okay. Now, when I say this,

a lot of the way people reacted had something to do with the time. So if you're doing it in 1960s, which was, say it loud,

I'm Black and I'm Proud, is much different than now when people are much more open-minded about everything and anybody who date,

It's just like who you more compatible with really doesn't make a difference. And I'll say not in an extreme way.

I'm sure he had challenges, especially when he's dating in a racially in the sixties. But he found somebody that he

cared about married him and, you know, has son and I have cousins and other people that have done that. I think I think this being someone

who challenges that we have just being African-American. I think a lot of times we're a lot more willing to accept.

Others were open as long as people are respectful. I didn't see that when I was at Delaware and then maybe it happened when Mike

and my older brothers time, but for the most part, we just stuck with each other in terms of what?

David and whenever you talk about your brother's a line, how do you brother Conway and

played football when you were here, you said you're into sports growing up, but did you attend any like vents

sporting events and saying like, did you guys go to those actin? Yeah, we did in actually, I probably it has

lot to do with the times and the high school. In high school I played basketball and I'm going to tell you though, what happened with that.

Because I have a really athletic family and it's not only my immediate family but extended. I don't know if maybe I did

tell you this that I first year I had to try out for the basketball team. But what I didn't finish or

continue because the practices and the commitment that you have to make to be an athlete and your academics was a little bit more for me.

And I just decided that maybe I don't want to do this. So first you didn't maybe try for basketball? Second time I tried out.

I didn't have to. And part of it was because they said, Well, she's got these brothers they can play and I always my interests was really tracked.

And if they had had a women's track team at my high school and I won't even say in college, I don't even remember a Delaware had it.

I probably would have been trapped because that was my I wanted to be the flow Joe and whoever whatever Joe and be on the front of the box.

But that never happened. But we did attend we did go to the football games, basketball, not as much.

We knew a lot of people, obviously my brothers, but even when we were in school, a lot of our male classmates would

be on the football team or the baseball, whatever. So we did attend those events on the regular one,

we were on campus, you know, transitioning into experience on campus. I know you told me about how you were in Delta Sigma Theta summary on that.

We will get there. I have a low level. I could be there when I was talking about how you got into it with a student in

high school about slavery. But he said that. That will check your first conversation with a student about something like that.

But when you were in college, were there any more situations like that where you had to renew my knowledge then so is there

any any conversations you had? No, We really didn't. I won't say and I'm just talking about myself because

other classmates may have had a different kind of experience because a lot of people that I pledged with, they were teachers and I'm sure

when they were getting their teaching credentials, it would probably much more multi-ethnic. I didn't really have a lot

of conversations about race when I was a student and we had them. It was like with the Black Student Union here.

We were talking about some issues on campus or within the subroutine. We were with black people. If I had to think of places

that things didn't always, well, it could have been better. I think in the residence hall, I think our interactions between some of

the white students and black students could have been better. I mean, a lot of us were just their living as

opposed to kind of interact. And I say that in a comparative way. So for instance, once I began to work with students on college campuses,

we would do things in the residence hall so that different groups of students would interact with one another? I don't necessarily recall

that when I was at UB, that maybe they did it maybe because I was Black Student Union or with the sorority. Maybe my energies, we're in that area,

but I know now it's almost a deliberate thing. Let's see, we can do on the floors because I worked in Res Life.

What what can we do on this floor is to bring everybody together, whether you're buying a pizza or going out to see a movie or whatever.

I don't necessarily recall it's doing it, but it could be that at that time, the residence hall and then they call them dorms weren't the same as they are now.

Now they're more like living, learning and trying to expose people to a lot of different things. But we didn't have we didn't

really have to be honest with you. A lot of racial issues. I mean, other than as some of the stuff I talked to you

about with the sororities and fraternities. I think a lot of that was more with my brother's generation in the sense with the sixties and you know,

just all the campus unrest. Then by the time we arrived on campus, it was more about trying to develop and get our academics

together and create a sorority and other types of things so that we can move on and do some other things. Which is actually good because it didn't

distract from the classes. You just brought it up. Delta Sigma Theta sorority incorporated. Take you back to your

sophomore year in college. You decided you want to pledge? Their actually, when we began, there were 25 of us.

We lived up in Christiana towers. It was Christiana towers East Room 505. And I remember my roommate was actually my roommate my freshman year.

Her boyfriend was a member of mega sci-fi. And so she along with one of my other sorority sisters who ended up marrying one of my cousins.

They will connect it to a omega sine phi. And as a result of that, they found agonists Green who was over in the Dean of Students Office,

who was a delta, and started working with her. And some of the other advisors that I mentioned from

HBCUs to help us create a chapter on campus. So we pledged for ten months. We started we ended October 197526. But when we start so if I go back

ten months, was it January? No, hadn't been to January. Well, that's ten months. So it was like December, January.

We met through the summer, started out with 25, ended up with only 11. Some of the people who were part of the 25, some of them graduated,

some of them who didn't graduate though, ended up creating the second sorority on campus, Alpha, Kappa Alpha. So it was like all of us

wanting to do something either Delta Sigma, Theta, Alpha, Kappa Alpha and I would not trade that

experience in for the world. I think it really provide a sense of belonging gave me, and I think others are much

better perspective of what it was like to be a black woman, professional woman. They helped us with challenges with for ourselves.

I mean, it wasn't easy, but, you know, kinda brought awareness of how we needed to, what we needed to do to be prepared for the world.

Those relationships continue. So we didn't like they didn't just advise us and then go off into the sunset. And it probably if I had to

think of something that I've done has been long last thing is probably been the most long-lasting pain because it's the same people that I've played with.

It's been over 40 years now. I'm still connected with today. One of the advantages of being part of that organization.

I know fraternities and sororities sometimes get a lot of bad PR black fraternities and sororities are a lot different in the sense

that our membership isn't just an undergrad. When we graduate, we also become involved with alumni. We have honorary members like we just select

the joint read on MSNBC and some other people. We continue that service. And now the objective is

service for the sorority. When women's suffrage back in 1919 was an issue. Delta Sigma Theta was the subordinate,

was there with a women's suffrage movement. The challenges, again, he was a racial issue. They wouldn't let us march in the front part of

this women's suffrage thing because the white females didn't want us in the front. So they put us in the back.

So but we're still doing things in the community that will always be a part of, I think more than what I am, you know? So, you know, not everybody wants to pledge.

You know, it's a lot different now than it was long ago. But I think that if once you gain membership into this,

this is probably one of the few places that you can really see a diversity of black women, but a lot of strengths and you kinda work

together toward a common goal. I know, I know a couple of people that pledged. So I can see it on social media.

Do you guys like, how does it work when you say you pleasure at University of Delaware? Somehow you're networking

with the Bell state, like how do you ask them together like that, how does that work? Well, usually what happens is

so whether your undergrad, so if your undergrad, wherever there is a college and university, typically there's a chapter.

So we have like membership. They come up and say what I'm thinking, well ways that we can contact members. So like for instance, if I wanted

to contact them at UD and I wanted to do and we did this. We wanted to work with for touch base with the sorority sores at Delaware State.

We contact their advisor or whoever through national database and we set up a meeting. So we did go when we were at University of Delaware,

we did go to Delaware State. We went to Lincoln. We went to the HBCUs and go to Howard. I think we even went to Howard.

So we traveled different places. Similarly, when you become an alum. So I'll give you an example how it benefited me.

So I leave Delaware the first place that I moved. After Delaware, I've moved to Illinois, right?

And so the first thing I did was to find out the undergraduate chapter on the campus, which in turn they gave me contexts for alumni.

So not only could I be affiliated with the undergraduate chapter, but I could also do stuff with the alumna. And it's just a network.

Just like let's say you're an athlete, then you might know some people from, I don't know when New York you use that connection or

that interaction that you've had with someone else to connect with some of your athletic friends. And it's lifelong.

So if I go to Maryland, I go to California, I go to Atlanta. There's a way in which to

our national database and connections that we can connect with other people with disabilities are fraternities. And I'll be honest with you,

it's actually really reassuring because like for instance, I've moved around different states and you don't always move

someplace where you know a lot of people. But you know that if you can connect with Chapter Delta Sigma Theta, that's gonna be like 2 three hundred,

four hundred sorority sisters that you will be able to kinda do things with, which is always great connection

for life, right? I know you, you're heavily involved was discovered yet. You did. You came back for the 40th.

Frank. Do you have any plans for the 50th anniversary? Well, hopefully it's gonna be a big one. We did do something for the 45th,

which was last year, but because of COVID, everything was virtual. Obviously. The 50th is coming up in two. What is this?

23 years and we're working on that now. Hopefully fingers crossed. Covid will not be. Thanks. Delivery.

Yeah, looming over and we'll probably do something on campus. I know when we did the 40th, I was told that that was

the largest group of alumni that came back for that type of event over that weekend. And I'm sure we're gonna do the same thing.

We use some of those activities to gray scholarship money, which we've really done a great job with, and other things that we're doing,

what we're working on, some other things in it right now to get the history of the sorority permanently located

at the university's archives so that once all of us move on or whatever, you know, there'll be a record of the sorority

being established there on campus. So it's really and here's the thing. I was on the charter lines. So that means that I actually

helped start this organization. And the way in which, and I'm not saying this to make it look like we didn't have anything to offer,

but to look back at this 40 years later, to see all the women that had pledged and all the wonderful things professionally and

personally think they'd done. It's just overwhelming. We started, we were just little sophomores. You don't know what's gonna happen.

What do you know? What? After all these years you come back and it's just dynamic.

I, you know, I would not change this for the world. At the time you're doing it. Sometimes we think around pledging,

I'm wearing the same outfit since this young lady, you know, the person standing next to me or whatever.

But it's really been a rich experience and it continues to be one. So here's the thing. If you don't play undergrad,

you can always Pitt grad chapter, which is a whole, you know, your professional, the only thing that's a challenge probably

for most people is not cheap. I remember we were doing it. We only had to raise, like what, $60. That was the hardest $60 to come by because,

you know, when you're a student, you don't have any money. You know, we were trying to get some money to go get

a grilled cheese sandwich and some french fries for some potato chips. But you know, we would work and do little public service events.

But if people can't do an undergrad, you can do graduate and professional group of black women, college educated that are

trying to do things to help with the black community. And then there's all this stuff we have fun things to do,

like picnics and stuff to say, I was an undergrad and I was looking like What would you say the mean to get me to pledge down.

So what makes you guys different from the others? Well, you know, I probably wouldn't try to because I wouldn't

do anything to try to discourage or paint a negative light on any fraternity or sorority. What I would tell, and I've told people this,

like I've got a nice now it's 15 and she'll be hopefully going to call it in the next couple of years.

And she has an octopus, an AKA, and she also has a Delta. Now, the Aka one just came a lot recently. She spends more time with her.

It was so funny with my sister told me she said, well, you know, her other arm is doing that pink and green.

But what I would tell people is that we need you. So sororities and fraternities need members. Members just as much as

sometimes some of the members think they need to be part of those organizations because sometimes people can see us as being like liters or exclusionary.

I usually tell people that you look at them all, attend their events, interact with their members.

So you can decide based on your personality, your needs, which one you feel that you fit with the best. Okay?

Obviously, I'd want all everybody to place Delta Sigma Theta, but not everybody is going to press Delta Sigma Theta even though we have

the highest membership of all of them. But I would look at who's in the organization. And sometimes this campus specific,

you might meet a delta that's an alarm or from another campus that you think is wonderful. But you might be on campus with folks that

are standoffish than liters. You just don't see how it matches. The bottom line is trying to find that organization that you fit the best way.

All of us are doing the same thing. I think in trying to uplift the black community. That's why a lot of these organizations

were created. They had challenges now, they weren't all like let everybody in. But the ultimate goal of all of

these organizations or to do things, go back into the community and help the black community either on-campus, off-campus in any way we can.

We have the same goals. That's good. That's, that's pretty much it at Walmart question for Delta Sigma Theta. So when incorporating that,

but You didn't mention that you were involved with the Judicial Board and the PSI club? I'm not too familiar with those suits.

So if you could just see, you know, a little bit about them, the PSI was really just part of being a major. And I think I did that wasn't my scene.

Maybe junior or senior year. We didn't do much. I mean, it was really just I don't know how popular was because I don't

remember when we had those meetings. It wasn't like it was a big room full of students and involved, but basically, yeah,

they had constitution and bylaws and they would do little programs related to people who are interested in psychology.

I think the thing, if I had to talk about my major, I think the thing was one of the things that most impact

because we didn't have any black faculty. There was a faculty member that taught a cognition course. I think he was a faculty person of color,

but I wasn't sure. I pick on one of his classes. But the thing that was most impactful from Delaware is my junior year,

they had something called a Psychology Research Institute at UD. And what they did is they select the two students from

University and I was one of them, me and another student to Blackstone's for Mu day, and then two students from HBCU.

So we had folks from Hampton. Delaware State Morgan show different different HBCUs. They came to campus,

they gave us a stipend room. And then they had a black, there was a black faculty person who taught a black psychology course.

I still have that book, it's called Black psychology. Then we also had, we did a research experience.

So, so for instance, I wasn't interested in cognition. So I did along with my classmates, whoever we're interested in same topic.

We spent the summer working on research in that area, and then we presented that information to the group at the end of the six weeks.

And I think that was what had the most impact because not only where we ran all black students, we had one black faculty person that we also

had majority faculty from the campus that worked with us with some of these research experiences and that really had a very strong impact,

I think on my experience at the Judicial Board and I was there were some other things I was involved in building a tool.

I remember the Judicial Board, which I really shouldn't say this, but I actually in a way unlike that in a sense.

Because what happened is, what I remember is if students, let's say this is like a code of honor that you don't cheat

on a test that's used that as an example. If they found a student who cheated on a test, rather than just faculty

or administrative making the decision to whatever you're gonna do with a student, whether it was to give them a bay,

a poor grade in the course or whatever failed. And of course, the student was required to come before the Judicial Board of

their peers and talk about if they choose. So an example would be, I remember this clear as day. I think it was like

a chemistry course or something. The professor would hand back to chemistry tests. And students would write

in pencil because you know, sometimes with chemistry hand and balancing equations and stuff. And he'd hand back the test.

I remember this. And it was one student. So let's say he'd hand back the tests. The student got a D on it.

When the professor would go over the questions on the test and the classroom, the student would erase the answer and put the right answer.

Go back up to the professor and say, well, you gave me, you said this was wrong, but here I have the real wrote the real answer.

So what the professor started doing, he started copying all the students tests, quizzes or tests that he'd have a original copies so that

when we'd go over the test and the class, if the student erase something, he would have the original, so he would know. And I remember that was

one of the cases that we hadn't student came in and said, well, you know, he keeps giving me a D or F and this should be migrate.

The Professor button and the copies of the original exam showing the student had erased the thing. So that was kinda

giving students a chance with their peers and then we would decide what the sanction would be for them. But there were other groups.

There were other things that I did too as well, but those are the two that stick out in my mind most.

So after you graduated, what what was your first first ever job? After? My very first job was working at

Northwestern University in Evanston, Illinois, which was a wonderful place to land after graduate school. Well, let me back up. So I

had actually let me backup. So I did I asked that wasn't my first job. My first job after getting my degree at UD was actually working at

the George Wilson Community Center up on New London road. They needed a recreation person and I went and I

worked there for maybe it was less than a year, maybe about nine months. And this was right before I

went to graduate school. So I had planned on going into graduate school. But what I was trying to do with

that experience and I didn't do it to a certain extent. I wanted the community to be more involved with the center.

So we had like gospel concerts and we had fashion shows and other stuff. And what I would do, I would utilize, like some of my sorority

sisters are people that I knew in the community to come back and do like a Gospel concert. And the idea was to kind of get

the community more integrated. And if I had stayed because it was really a dilemma. And I remember talking to

my brother whether I was gonna go to graduate school in Illinois or stay and continue to work there and

try to bring a community. And I remember him saying something to me like, well, now Is that

something that you want to do for the rest of your life? What are the things that you need to prepare? So I opted to go, you know,

go back to graduate school and get my master's degree at Illinois State. Then when I finished there, that's when I went on to work at

Northwestern and student affairs. And then from that point on, I had experiences a variety of different schools.

My very first job out of UD was at in the community, working with the community center and then I decided to go back to graduate school.

And then I worked at Northwestern. So at each university rec, but it was basically or mainly in higher education will right. Okay.

Student Affairs or academic affairs which was either directing programs. I did Career Services, I did Res Life. I've worked with engineering students.

I've had to National Science Foundation grants. Each word like $2 million. I've had money from a lot of major companies

like AT&T, Rockwell International. And I've used all these monies and I would say connections that kinda helps students.

So we are helping them by giving them scholarships, internships, jobs. You know, you name it. So as it by now,

I know you're rarely are you working at the university? You know, actually what I decided to do right before

COVID was to take my pension from the state of Illinois. And so as the example that my grandmother said,

now, she had a pension. She was born in 1908. And actually unfortunately, they don't have a lot

of places that have this option. I have the option of work or not work and I don't have to what I'm really doing, I shouldn't and I

don't want you to think I'm just sitting home not doing anything, but I've been actually working on a history, but I'm actually working on a book.

So I, and this has been a long standing endeavour here. But I'm closer to the board the end, I started doing genealogy with my family,

believe it or not, when I was a sophomore in Delaware. And then they didn't have all the good things digitize like they do now,

you guys are lucky because we used to have to go the card catalog and you don't even know what that is important.

Looking at where you get a tip, where you get a chance and pull the car at a card catalog, give it to the library,

she go get something and it will always be in paper, maybe they had it or not. Now, you literally can go online and

a lot of this stuff you can get because it's been digitized, which is wonderful. But what I did is this has something to do

a little bit with the coaches. So my family and I'm not going to talk about this a lot, but I'll just mention it in their book

that they were little known history of Newark, delaware and its environment. There is a chapter in the appendix.

Well, two chapters, they have a chapter in that book about Colored People from new art. And a lot of the folks that are listed in there,

folks, families that I grew up with. But in the appendix they do have a chapter on my family, on my grandmother's side of the genes.

And so they actually worked for the coaches back from whatever. So based on the oral history, I knew that book and some other things.

I actually started doing my own genealogy. But it's morphed into a book in a sense that I found out more things about my family

than what I originally knew. So rather than letting that history be buried or never known, I decided I'm going to document it,

write it down and hopefully I won't say by the end of this year, but hopefully by the end of next.

It should be in book form if everything goes as planned. So how is the structure of the book? Well, I'll give you an example.

Well, let me maybe not give me. So I've talked specifically about individuals in my family that I discovered things about

that we didn't know. Okay. So for instance, everybody does genealogy, so you might go and find out your

grandfather's grant people whatever is dislike, you know how Henry Louis Gates does discover your roots.

So it's like that, but in a much broader sense. And I'm actually using some of the things I've discovered

as themes about black people and their experiences during that time. And I think the thing is key about this is that the information that I'm

using deals specifically with my family before the Civil War. Which I use it as a Margaret because I think a lot I used to think when I was in

school before I took a black history course, that kinda black people didn't really exist until after the Civil War. But this book is going to talk

about their experience before the Civil War, during and after. So it's just a lot of material. But I'm hoping by the end of next

year and maybe even before that it'll be in print copy. So I actually had an opportunity to present at a conference,

Black History Conference this topic, but I decided not to do it. I'm going to wait until I have more stuff together.

So as you look back on your DNA, your time AUD is one relationship that you're most grateful for.

Other than agonist because I know you knew what I was going to say. I would probably say so I won't say an individual.

I'm doing this in a reflective sense because I don't know when I was a student, if I necessarily thought this or greenness out of the experience,

I will just say a whole host of experiences. So for instance, the collective experience of being able to get to

know and interact with my sorority sisters. I'm not going to say like initially it was like perfect because we all had to work toward

that relationship or the person who had with those folks. I would also probably say Dr. Newton, in a sense that he was really a motivator.

When I talk about this book for the history of the community or some of the things I've done with the markers.

It kinda morphed out of me having conversations with him. Not a lot, but enough to kind of motivate me to say what I need to do more with this.

And I was, I hadn't talked to him in years before this class. But when I was going about like all of

the folks that you guys are talking to now. I was the person who got everybody including him. And when I talked to him,

that I hadn't talked to him in years. The first time I talked to him, I was like I was revved up again. He did most of the talking.

I was revved up because he did. He just went on. It was good. It wasn't a bad talk.

It was just he read me up again. So I would say those relationships in particular and then I would probably say, I mean, there's a lot of

things like I talked to you about their psychology Research Institute. I think that had an impact on me.

Again, relationships with the faculty in psychology department because prior to that, I didn't really have the kind of

one-on-one and then getting a chance to see and meet black students from HBCUs because that's a rarity.

And the fact that that campus did that, they didn't have to not done it or just had a diversity, but they obviously knew there was a void.

So just those relationships. I think at the time they added something. But now reflectively, I look back like for instance,

I say to you, my sorority sisters, since I've known him proud of since I was 16. And we still have strong relationships. Those people that were in

that psychology research institute, I'm in touch with a lot of them. They've gone on and done professional thing. So I think just those relationships

throughout bit with the faculty, my student peers, students from HBCUs, and just the whole experience of Delaware in general.

I don't think I ever have had a negative feeling academically about that campus. It's a beautiful campus.

People tell me when they see pictures of what they say. It looks like people who go there or smart. Somebody from illinois said that debate.

I'm taking what, you know, because it's a Georgian style. It's not like, you know, schools in the Midwest.

It's a whole different kind of mystique that it has. So just a variety of different things and I'm doing that reflectively, mature,

mature person now I'm not a student is reflectively and I sent you that thing with my brother. It may have been hard to read.

I probably have a better copy but I couldn't find a better one. He wrote that in. I don't know whether he was still

playing pro ball and I was trying to remember and I had to think about it. But the essence of what he put in there,

I would say ditto the same thing. And because he used to say to me, You have to look at the totality of your experience.

It wasn't always perfect. But the end result is, here's where I am as a result of having the opportunity to

attend that institution. I did that. I read the newspaper and I read the whole thing last night on the way back from New York.

And I was going to ask you a few questions asked about that at the end that weren't on the sheet that I gave you.

Okay. So before I get to that, couple of more questions, until you say you were bought like you're still heavily

involved with University of Delaware. Made you get involved with the oil history course and get involved with what are the oral history course

and I'm in right now and how you hear what made you come up with the idea to the interview everyone and get their perspective on UD.

Well, so here's the thing. So here's how this started. So over COVID, because all of us were clammed up inside.

So we did a lot just like we're doing a Zoom now. We did a lot of Zoom and virtual and phone number, phone conversations.

So it started out with the severity. We had a one of my sorority sisters, so why was close to what hadn't talked to a lot

over the last couple of years. Unfortunately, she passed away suddenly in February of 2019. And as a result of that,

I think we all started thinking about, well, we really need to document this history. So in that we were

the first black summary at this institution because even though all the members know this, we need to document it because

once we're not here, we're not gonna be able to talk about the beginnings of it. And this is, I think this

goes along with my mindset that black people were real good with oral history. But we're not writing in

documenting and putting things in museums so that those who come after us be at my niece who I hope place it Delta Sigma Theta or whoever,

they don't have that rich won't have that history. So we started talking about that and deciding that we're going

to do two things. We're going to write. We know about the history when we establish this organization at UD. And then we're gonna give the UD artifacts.

So we actually have a box of things related to Delta Sigma Theta that we're going to give the university, they can put on display.

So every year, be it our 50th anniversary or whenever, they can display certain things that we did or use your head

during the times we pledged in the seventies. I in turn, because I already had some contexts and they contacted UD,

talked about what we wanted to do, and I talked to two people. So Dr. Horwitz is one of them. But Alison Oh,

Dr. Parker in the history department who is the chair. I started out with her. And she in turn,

we talked on the phone and we kinda did zooms and whatever. And it kinda morphed into because I guess they

have some kind of racial equality group now or committees that they're doing looking at inclusion.

Okay, So one of the things they thought was because they've done, the university has interviewed people from the black community before.

They have a lot of this already in the library. My concern when we were talking about this, I said to them, It's

good that we've done some of those things, but have we done it at the depth that we need to do it? So in other words,

they've talked to people about living and growing up in that black community. What have they talked about? Like when you asked me things

about my racial experience, dating experience, schools, have they really done a deep dive? In other words, really looking at

individually what our experiences were and then the totality of those experiences. My contention is that we need

to not only talk about, oh, there was a black community, but what was actually happening in the community and what

benefits it has it had. So they asked me to get in touch with people. So it's a really a three-pronged thing. So it's UD and African Americans.

But SUD the community. I gave them names of people in the community. And it's also UD students. So I'm giving them the name of

the first black student that graduated with a degree in business. And I'm giving them the name of the fraternity members,

first black Attorney members. So rather than just having one small segment, we're looking at everyone. And I went and had

conversations and, you know, obviously we don't have enough students to interview everybody, but we have enough to kinda

give folks, you know, kind of a perspective of what's happening with them. And I've always been interested in this.

And we'll continue primarily because I think it needs to be documented so that students like yourself or others

that come here for you, even if they can never talk to us because we're not here or what, whatever, there'll be some places they can

go and either listen to these interviews, read about them, looking at artifacts or whatever. So black history and

UD and in that community is not lost. As a student. I appreciate that because we'll get into this course. Like I didn't, I didn't

think that I will be interviewing. Now. Not black people were like as someone who knows

so much knowledge about the university and what went on during that time. And like I say,

it's good to know, like is I'll take this. Say if someone asked me what was something significant that

happened at University of Delaware where you were here? And I would definitely say this interview because I've learned

so much in two hours, I will say is I feel like it's a good experience and for the next group of kids isn't

taking the course next semester or something. You, another group of people like more knowledge than, you know, than to the library.

That's a good idea. I feel like you're doing something great here at University of Delaware. Know you guys are doing something great.

That's a great school. You know, I don't know what it's like now for you as a student as I don't I don't believe

it's the same way it was for me. But we want you guys to thrive. We want you to graduate Dr. go on and do wonderful things.

And I think a good thing about this. Obviously, I have my sorority people involved, but I also have a KAs

and capitals and non-Greeks. The oldest person in the black community. You know, this person that has something to do with the black church.

Obviously, my grandmother was still alive. I'd have her talk about her experiences because I think it helps us not only the campus, well,

not only black students actually say, but the campus, because they need to see a much broader perspective of who

and what we are and what impact things have had on us. So it morphed into this wasn't the original plan.

And I attribute give kudos to Dr. Parker and Dr. Horowitz putting this together because that wasn't my initial interests.

But when they said it, I said whatever and I can do to help you, I'll help you pull it together. Well, that brings me to my life.

My last question that was on the sheet that I gave you. But have you been doing to preserve the history of

the black community in the area near the university. As I can see, like you're staying involved

in creating courses for students to learn about history of the university because I'm from Virginia and not just came in for basketball,

but I wouldn't have been at the University of Delaware if it wasn't for basketball. Being like I'm learning a lot about

the university, newark in general. So one of the things I must say to Paris, and we haven't worked once. We can kind of get this COVID thing

and this is really kinda jammed. And I'm saying this on behalf of the Greeks. We did talk about this, so we did do a Zoom with all the Greeks.

One of the things that we aren't gonna do collectively, and we talked about this and I think it's gonna be significant.

So all the Greeks, the males and the females, we're going to start putting together some scholarships, support for black students on

their campus and other things. Once I think we can get through this course. And people can get a chance to talk to students and share their stories.

Probably starting the beginning of next year after the holidays. We're going to ramp up some other activities. And it's a significant number

of black alumni. So it's not like two or three people. And we're going to try to do as much as we can to help students on that campus.

All students but black students in particular. And then we're going to work on scholarship money

because we know that one of the biggest challenges that most students have is trying to figure out how to pay for. If it wasn't for financial aid,

I would not have had a college degree. And if it wasn't for the fact my mom was poor, so that's one good reason to be poor.

I wouldn't have had the money to go to college so that you know, the community. I mean, yeah, Now unfortunately,

you get ready to graduate this year so we can't give you any money. Maybe, Hey, if you come back as a graduate school or some of you,

but we're working on we're gonna do something. So we're talking, you're talking about people that have been working for awhile.

So it's not like we don't have monies that we can We do have monies that we can kinda donate to the cause.

I believe you guys will get it done. So the stuff that you emailed to me after I asked him to the question the questions,

the markers, I just had a quick question. Like how the process like what did you guys have to go through to get that?

Like didn't like unethical, I didn't. It, it costs money to get the mockers about what's gonna be on the marker and stuff like that.

So even though I was living in Illinois when all this happened, because I just moved to Maryland last year.

On trips home or special trips home. What I started doing, I started out in Dover. So I would go to Dover

because the overheads archives and they actually have a department I'm trying to think. I can think of the person's name,

but I can't think of the department, but they actually have a department in Dover that does historical markers. It's all on one or two or three trips home.

I went to Dover and ask them what I needed to do to get the historical markers. And so one of the things that you have to do, obviously,

each one costs about three to $400 from 332, $4 thousand. So one of the things that you had to do or I had to do was to

connect with the representative, the state representative for that area. I can actually send you their names. I will do that so you can at least have them.

So I started doing like a letter campaign. I mailed them email letter saying that we wanted to do X, Y, and Z. And at the same time we actually had,

we actually have a committee. It's called the North African American Heritage Committee that I created. It's been around for at least ten years,

less active than it used to be. And so there are two people on that committee, my cousin, crystal Hayman Sims,

and then Richard Wilson's daughter, Patty Wilson, a0, a1, and George Wilson's granddaughter. So I started the process of.

Initiating the contexts. And they'll tell you this. They said from afar, I send an email or I

call and say we need to work on this to get this marker. So we crafted together. I think my cousin and I look at

some history first and do the initial rate. And then Patty looked at it and we went back and forth, back and forth until finally

the wording was like what we wanted. We met I met with the people at the church and talked about it. And then once we got the money,

work through the folks in Dover, and then they set up a time that they came in, they install those markers.

The goal is obviously to acknowledge that community, but also to leave something in our memory. So 5000 years from now,

somebody is gonna know that there was a black community there. It may not be one black person walking through there, but they don't know.

And they take it upon themselves to do some research or investigate. Fine. But they'll know the thing about the churches,

which I think I didn't say, but I need to insignificant. Our church. My church I went to was a UAA ME, which actually stands for

the Union American Methodist Episcopal, St. John, which is on the corner of Cleveland in New London. Saint John Church.

Now listen to these dates. Was created, established in 1843. The church that I went to UAN was established and had

to cornerstone was 1868. Now this is why this is a significant 1843 was good 20 years or so before this end of the Civil War.

What happened with the black people in that community when they migrated from Glasgow or iron hill, they all kinda went to the

same church at first. And then what they did, some of the men and community built. And I might send you some pictures of this.

They built the two additional churches. Now here's why they're insignificant. There's a church in iron heel or Glasgow called

Saint Daniel's with my relatives attended before they came to New York. And they actually used to walk the new art to go to church.

Saint day at J. Annulus and the UN you AME Union American Methodist Episcopal church that I attended.

And I didn't notice when I was going there. This is why history is important. They're part of the Spencer churches. Okay, Now why is that important?

Peter Spencer established these churches, but he also had a significant because he was extremely involved in the underground railroad.

Okay. And if you look up the Spencer churches, you'll see this and I'll tell you I'll tell you who can talk to you about.

Unfortunately, probably didn't. Dr. Newton was. I think he wrote something on it. But here's why it's supporting.

I believe in my heart of hearts and I may never be able to prove this. That where those churches are located, they're all on 896,

which can take you right up to Pennsylvania. Okay. They talk about Harriet Tubman coming from Maryland and Delaware and

then go into Pennsylvania. If you know anything about black history, what you know is that when these slaves were moving from 1 to the next,

along waterways, waterways and through false bottom wagons, et cetera, et cetera. They were also staying in black communities.

That community in New Orleans had free blacks. They also had those Spencer churches, right on an 896 that

would take you to Pennsylvania? I may never be able to prove this because, you know, they didn't write it down, but I would not be

shocked or surprised if someone told me that both of those churches has something to do with the Underground Railroad,

especially Saint John being established in 1843. There is no way you're going to tell me. And I would not be

surprised if we could go back. See that Harriet Tubman may have gone up through that area, coming through Glasgow around

where the coaches live because there's a waterway, they're going up to 896 to Pennsylvania now, why was Pennsylvania and

specifically Philly important? I may have, I may get my dates wrong, but I think in 1793, Pennsylvania, in Philadelphia

did not have slavery. And you could, if you were free or could escape to Philly, you could be free.

Okay. So why wouldn't you take those people up 896 to Philadelphia through where Lincoln University is and

whatever, for free life. And I would not be surprised that those two churches didn't have something to do with that because

the spectrum of churches has something to do with the Underground Railroad and that's been documented, written books.

So for me, we needed to document that. Maybe that next-generation of people will do go beyond where we went. They'll look at the mark and say,

okay, well, what else can we find? I've talked to people about this. What else can we find out about these churches on this,

on the strip 896, that community was free. Black people before the Civil War. Maybe they didn't have

great jobs and still are being treated with some disrespect. But it was a free community. So this is probably

my question and my interests and a sense of we're going to use oral history where we're going to also documents somebody's oral history

so that maybe the next person, be it a historian or a student, maybe my niece, take it to the next level. So that was the motivation behind it.

And so I had to other people to help me. But, you know, we work with the state people. They were like three to $4 thousand each. We're going to do

more because as a result of us doing those, they said, Well, identify other places like there's a corner of New London,

Korbut and re street where the black people Bill school right on that corner because the kids couldn't go to integrated school. So the black people have built

a school right on that corner and that was the first school in that area. So what we're gonna do,

we're gonna identify places in that community that need to have additional markers so that regardless of who's living there,

they're going to know that there was a Black presence. It's just COVID time has slowed everything down.

That's why my books not done because I couldn't, you know, some of the research I needed to do,

they close the archives and other places so we weren't able to do that. So sorry, that was a long answer

for this question, but it's near and dear to my heart. I'm just and if I could prove I don't see because we

don't document it, you know, they only talk about Harriet Tubman and William Garett in Wilmington.

There's no way you're going to tell me that black people weren't involved with that Underground Railroad. Taking somebody someplace where

there's walk them through some woods, hiding behind a tree or something. That was my last question. We'll pose

one more question about the markers, but you kinda, kinda pretty much answered that. It was just what does it

mean to tell people that you are part of this? Like that's like you Hi, can I put it here? Very proud of it.

I'm probably one of the proudest things more so than other. They're probably Tuesday. If I could think of two things.

The community and work would be those markers, even though it was only like 6 $7 thousand, which is not a lot of money. It's that.

And the last grant that I got from the National Science Foundation for $2 million to help underrepresented students. So there's black students, Latino,

and majority students earned degrees and degrees in stem. And they gave me that money. So I can do scholarships by books,

take them on trips and whatever those if I had to think of two things Career-wise and personally,

those would probably be the two things. And it has lasting effect in a sense that you kind of build to that. So when I'm thinking

about having this question in my mind, a sophomore Delaware, the history of my family in that community where it's where it started.

It took a long time to get here. But those markers are the end result of that not letting that dream or idea ago, wanting the community to be documented.

And if it wasn't for COVID, we probably would have more markers and some other things, but because we haven't

been able to go out and do stuff, but Whatever I can do to kinda help black folk, you know, in terms of documenting

history and leaving something for those who come after us. That's gonna be my life's ques from now on. However I do it.

Last two questions I had sweet. It's about your brother Conway's his incident newspaper that you sent to me. I read it and he was involved with

the blacks a lot that play a role in whether or not that she wanted to be involved with it when you entered college

or you just like was it like solely based off of my brother went to it and learn from it like that.

I'm trying to explain it. So you're saying because he was involved in Black Student Union, is that why I got involved with the banks?

Do that like one of the reasons that no one can hear me. No, I didn't hear you. One of the things I said was that one of

the reasons I know there's probably multiple reasons why you wanted to get involved, but did that play a role in it?

Yeah. Well, here's what I'll tell you about my family in general. My probably my two brothers in particular. How do I say this?

Both were very I'll say it this way. Say it loud. I'm black and I'm proud. Okay. So let me give you an example.

My oldest one in particular, but both of them they're both active in the community. I would consider both of them,

especially my oldest one. They work what I would consider, consider black intellectuals. So they were not just athletes.

They were well-read, well-written, and they were aware. So my oldest brother came home from Delaware in the summer.

This is before I went to school. He would bring Just a box of books and just drop them in house and go on and do his thing.

And I'll be honest with you, when he was in school, all of the black box like Eldridge Cleaver, Soul on Ice, H Rap Brown.

All those books were what he was reading courses until I remember the first book that I've read that has something to do with kinda like,

uh, say it loud, I'm black and I'm proud theme was Eldridge Cleaver Soul on Ice. So whatever they were doing in college at that time,

I would read their books, magazines. So they were really conscious about their blackness, proud about their blackness.

Afraid to express their opinions. Nobody in my family is in general. And so because we grew up in a single-parent household,

they played up a variety of rules. Obviously they were big brothers, but they also were in some ways father figures as well as for my uncles.

And they were fearless, didn't have fear, they were not. And if so, I think if I don't have fear or have interests,

my interest in being motivated and we were just we were just say it loud, I'm black and I'm proud. I mean, I don't want to say

that we were militant, but we probably weren't. They were to a certain extent. Not to extent that you

were trying to harm anybody, had an awareness of your blackness. You knew about the Black Panthers, The Black Muslims.

They were well-read and history. And so by the time you get to Delaware though, it's almost a given

that you're almost part of the Black Student Union, whether you want to be or not. It wasn't something that you had like

five organizations that you laid out and said while WSU, that was probably one of the first places that you gravitate to

because they were black students went and they were active. So I just think it was a given. I think we've always been egg that

was even in high school, we were active. We didn't have a Black Student Union, but we had an organization for black students.

We did a black play, newark high. We fortunately, we had a high school history teacher who was black, who did black?

A black history course and whatever. So they would just intellectual and aware. That's why when people talk to me about if they say a dumb jock,

I don't know what you're talking about now. I don't know that any of those people, you know, they would just aware and they would they

didn't mince words, they'd let you know. My brother talks to me about when he was being Prime Pro Bowl. How some of the players, sometimes it'd be

afraid of some of the coaches or people because they were white. And he's related one time

that one of the guys, Oh man, how could you talk to the coach like this or say, suppose you said, I'm a man,

dislike he is, I'm not going to be fearful. He wasn't disrespectful, but he expressed his opinion. So they were just fearless.

And it's kinda funny because not that actually Nestle be modeling my behavior after males, but when I would get into my

grilling thing where I'm boohoo crying, which I did do with them. They let me do that for a hot minute. And then they say,

okay, So now what you're going to do. So you always had to have a way to get back up another option. Okay.

This did happen. We cried about it. Now what you're going to do, and they were always like that. So we have three systems,

but it is like that too. Yeah. You can have your moment, but we had to do something next to get pass right through it.

Right. So I miss them dearly. I really missed because we grew up, we were not necessarily close in age, but we kinda grew up together.

So six of us, so the US first three kind of trailblazer for the 3D came after us, you know, in my family, which I'm proud of. My mother, was smart.

My mother didn't have the money to go to college. But she instilled in us how important education was at middle-class values.

There are six of us. So at, uh, 65, went to college, three-halves master's degrees. One has a PhD.

My two oldest brothers played professional football, and now I have a system that has a developmental disability.

But even in that realm, she's Excel, she works she lives independently in a group home. And we never thought when she was

young that she would ever get to that point where she could do that. So whatever it is that we could do, even coming from a single-parent household,

being poor. Mother kind of directed us, you know, you've got to have some goals and long rings, objectives to accomplish.

So i'm, I'm proud of that because we were all those statistics and those books that aren't always positive. But you can dispel the myth

and you can prove people wrong, which I think is what you really need to do in life sometimes. Last question. Your brother

mentioned in the article handy. I use his experience that you need to have time with professional football. Has it been a specific time where you look

back and tried to handle a situation in your career by. Looking back on how you handled it, how you handle something that UV light.

So you went through something tough at UB and you had to get through it and you went to some staffing, it could really look back like how

you handled that gets you through? I think so. And actually, the place that I think really roomy for that.

So let's say I, obviously I didn't play professional football, but let's say in this career where I learn, let's say leadership skills,

group dynamics, or just skills dealing with people. We're in the sorority. So for instance, when we started,

I was president of the the the pledge line. Once we gained membership, that was Vice President, was also secretary. So I had different roles.

But within the context of that group, you had to have skills and approaches that you would either have to develop or use so that we can accomplish our goals.

Because there's a group dynamics that everybody gets alone. You learn leadership skills and what help buffer that are helped us with that,

We constantly would get feedback from our advisors. So let's say, you know, something didn't go away.

They would say, Okay, here's what you did and here's what you need to do to make it so it's better. I would say out of all the places was

that sorority because this, the dynamics, those leadership roles, having to represent that organization in a positive way. Remember I talked to you about,

you're always told that if one delta does something, everybody does, so you needed to do something positive, which I probably would say the same thing

with you and athletics. If they see you doing whatever athletes do that are inappropriate. Adh athletes from

University of Delaware and do the same thing. So that probably had the biggest impact and I took that with me into the world of work.

And then also, as I said to you, having those black women, my grandmother with that adage saying, don't want,

somebody wants to pull you down to their level. Don't lower yourself. It's the same thing that Michelle Obama say,

My grandmother was a woman working in the kitchen and DuPont. Then you think of my advisor, You know, agonists would always tell you to keep

involved in activities and do things like especially when stuff at work was challenging and then taking all that

together and using that in your everyday life, your world work. And then if you need to be reassured, are given other ideas.

Pick the phone up and call them and say, Here's a circumstance, what do you think I should do? And she was key, she got she just passed away

two in 2019 unexpectedly, so but she was still feisty. We met her when she was 4090 something. She was still fighting.

He was like, the only thing that was different was that she used to have a bigger Afro, her afro with a little

small Shi I said Agnes, you're almost the same way you were when we met you at 40, she was still feisty and whatever

in that movie was motivated. So anyway, sorry, that's a long answer for that one little question.

But I would just say that the group dynamics and being in a sorority and in leadership roles, you develop an IT and IT area.

Dislike. My brother mentioned some of the things that he happened while he was playing wasn't as ethylene. That's all I have for you.

Is there anything you want to get off your chance to say? Well, I think this is a wonderful thing that this whole class is doing for

all the students. Obviously. I think it's important because it's what African-American students, African-American alarms

and people in the community. But I also think sometimes too, I wouldn't mind being on the other side of the table hearing about some

of the experiences that the majority students had and how they perceive Delaware, maybe even how they perceive the few numbers of

black students that are on campus. And what that means, because it at least gives us some idea of different perspectives.

I do hope that the university continues to think out of the box. Have students do things out of the box, document history and experiences.

Because I think through that we all kinda grow and things can, can be better for the next generation of students on campus. Good school.

Once you leave here, it's going to open up a lot of doors. I know you talked about some things that you wanted to do after you leave,

so Delaware is definitely a good start. Thank you. Thank you, pair. Sorry.

I mean, I took a lot of your time there. You probably got a lot of homework to do or say, Yeah, fine. Is this possibly finals week?

So I'll have a live status study only I like to find or what next week is finals week. The week after.

Yeah. Okay. Alright. Good. Very good. So what what kind of injury did

you get though with your basketball? You hurt your ankle, foot, or what? You can't talk about the injury? I can't. I sprain well,

every year I need mine like a minor a minor injury. So in March, like the last 20-minute hyperextend

and my knee and sprained my ACO. Summer I was recovering and then the first game of the season, I re-entered it.

Acl is like ones last leg. So I had to wear a brace that the way to the floor. I play it again,

so don't wait for it to get here. Oh boy. Well, you know one of the things, my brothers and neither

one of them were alive. My second brother, he, he's actually is pro career because he tore his Achilles tendon in an exhibition game.

But one thing I'll say about the pro people, whatever they do to remedy those injuries. It works. They have them doing all kinds of stuff.

You know, they can break their leg and half and next thing, you know, they did something to put it back there.

They're walking, running all like are you sure you wanna do that? He's like, Yeah. Because even though I've never

played athletics like you did whenever I would have an injury just from going to the gym. I asked my brother in a minute what I should

do and whatever he would tell me it would work. So just hang in there. I hope to hear from you

when you graduate this time in June. Yes, I'm supposed to be. I knew in June, but clove here. As far as basketball,

it gave me an extra year. Okay. I think I'm just going to pick up another major for the neck, another minor. A minor for next year

and his graduate next year. Okay. So I'll give you time to look around and see what you want to do.

Well, keep me posted. Let me know how to class goals and, you know, if there's anything else you need some additional information

or pictures and stuff. I got so much stuff. I'll be more than happy to send it to you or give you another