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Hi there. This is Brianna Perry, University of Delaware student talking to Mrs. Marlene her dunk leave university alumni.

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And this is an interview about the African-American experience at University of Delaware from the sixties and seventies.

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And we're starting Okay, Ms. Ms. Marlene bunk Lynn. I'm sorry. That's okay. Because you want to

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talk about your early childhood? Sure. Why not? I grew up in the city of what we did and I come from a very large family,

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family actually of ten. Wow. My siblings were first-generation college graduates. On my parents were,

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my mother actually stayed at home and my father, he was the breadwinner in the house. So education was really

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important in our household, even though both parents, neither parent went to college. They were very supportive of us,

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you know, in school. They came to every event and, you know, I think my childhood was pretty good. I up until a ninth grade,

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my school basically was predominantly black. I'm going into high school. First-year was predominantly white. Women too high.

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But, you know, it's just kinda it transitioned from being predominantly white in the late sixties to predominantly

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black by the time I graduated in 72. Very interesting. Okay. So I'd like to know a little bit more about the makeup

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of your neighborhood. Was it mostly american? Was mostly, yes. It was basically all African American.

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That was our neighborhood at the time. The neighborhood was very closely knit. During those years, like the neighborhood children and

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the neighborhood adults were the parents to most kids. So back in that day, a parent, neighbor could correct you,

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as well as your own parents. And you could also like the kids on the block when it was dinner time your parents called you for dinner.

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It may be three or four kids following you in the house to eat. It wasn't, so there is always room for one more.

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So I think growing up in that era, it was different from now. Everybody knew everyone. Everyone respected the adults.

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You didn't want your neighbor to tell your mother what you did because that may cause you to get punished again.

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So basically everyone looked out for the other was, like I said, mostly African-Americans in the neighborhood.

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I don't remember any white children as a matter of fact, in my neighborhood to come to think of it, No.

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Basically we were just all African-Americans. Sound that lovely. So I like that nowadays, yes. Okay. I'm transitioning.

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Unless, unless you'd have more childhood stories you'd like to talk. Oh no, I, I I enjoyed I enjoyed growing

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up in that neighborhood. A lot of people think of being in an all black environment as being something bad or that you're poor.

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If we were poor, we didn't know we were four because we seem to have everything that we need it. We played all kinds of games

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and we've made up or games we build. I remember you could take a pair of skates and a little crepe from

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fruits or something and make a scooter wear or you could like, you skate it all around. And you know that one bicycle may have been

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the contribution of five bicycles in the neighborhood to get that one bicycle. So a lot of, a lot of memories,

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a lot of fun. You know, you just felt a lot of move back in that day. Yeah. Wow. That sounds lovely, honestly.

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Okay. So you were a person who was so close. University of Delaware, Wilmington is quite close to New York, so you must have known you'd use reputation.

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Surprisingly, I did not. Most of when I was in high school, we were University of Delaware didn't have a reputation

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of not like welcoming African-American students. So as a result, most people were directed to go to

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predominantly black schools by our teachers. There was Upward Bound and colleagues try in that error. I'm not sure if you were

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familiar with upper bound college, right? So the University of Delaware head the upper Outward Bound college try program, which a lot of my friends went to.

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But unfortunately, I wish I had gone. I wasn't a part of that program. Which kind of, in a sense isolated me from different programs that were

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available to people went to college, try over brown process. But it was a program that was really good

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for my friends and people that I knew, I wish I were in it. But University of Delaware had the reputation in our minds is not

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being very nurturing or welcoming or you were just the number because it was really huge. I remember one of my teachers said, no,

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don't go to the University of Delaware and you're just gonna be a number, you're going to be lost in the shuffle. A lot of different reasons

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why it shouldn't go, but I decided to go at the last minute because I was I was accepted other places,

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but to financial aid and money going out out of the state was a lot different if you were an in-state student. So I I chose

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to go to University of Delaware late in the process. And as a result, That's how I ended up living on North Campus.

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And pin cater, which was not supposed to be for freshmen. I was there as a freshman and that was a whole totally different experience for me.

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But yeah, we weren't encouraged. As a matter of fact, when you went to something that I felt like very interested in once you graduate,

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if people just assumed if you said you went to Delaware, that you went to Delaware State which was like No,

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it was University of Delaware, but it was just that kind of mentality that people put on you, that if you were black,

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you went to Delaware State, if you were white, you like the University of Delaware. So yeah.

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So I was aware in that respect about the reputation and maybe being a number and it'd be very hard and,

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you know, all of those things that you hear, but it wasn't it wasn't too bad. That's all I love it. I love hearing from I don't know.

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I mean, I love thank you so much. That's awesome. Great. Okay. So you know the reputation, at least that UD was not

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very friendly to African-Americans. When you said that your family valued education, what did they think of you going?

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My mother my my parents, really I don't think they thought a lot about going to actually, my brother had been in college trying

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over bound and although, you know, college wasn't at the at the top of their spectrum, just when we were in

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high school and elementary school, you had to have respect for teachers. You had to get good grades and you had to at least get

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the skills so that you could go out and get a good job. So I mean, because my brother before me had been in

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he was in the college try Upward Bound program. They thought it was really, really difficult, but I just wanted to go there

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because my brother and my sisters, they went to Delaware State and I kind of wanted to make my own inroads with

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my own reputation not following in the footsteps of anybody else. Wow, wow. Yeah, I was always like the rebel.

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Fantastic. Okay. So your first time on campus, what did you think? I mean, okay, my first day at

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the University of Delaware was kind of like culture shock. Cultural shock in the sense that one, because I was a freshman and hadn't

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been oriented because of college try or Outward Bound. I had to go on campus before everyone else. And being on North Campus

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where you weren't in a dorm situation per se, you are like, I don't know if you remember it. Well, piton caters torn down,

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but pin Cater was like the quality and you have like outside the entrance to your own dorm and then you shared The bathroom's like

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a quiet with other people. So you didn't have that community one-on-one sort of relationships as you would've done in a dorm,

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but you get drunk and telephone in your room and I mean, it was great later. I mean, I loved it after

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I'd been there for a while, but initially felt I felt alone and isolated. I didn't see any black people at all. Again, it was like I was there by myself.

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That's what it felt like. But I assume kind of got acclimated to what was going on and and, and made some lifelong friends.

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And being a part of my sorority also helped, but it was like a cultural shock. I remember I was, I was at their door with

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a white students from the ACCC was a senior and very naive about college life and boys and men. And I remember my my freshman year,

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the second night she was there. She had someone stay over and you're not supposed to. And that was really scary to me as a

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as a freshmen who was very wet behind the ears like didn't know anything. She moved out.

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She said because she was a med student and she had to have a single, but that was kind of scary. It also I had a she moved

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out it in after winter session and I had this white person from South Africa move in. She was moving her things in and I was on

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the other side of the bathroom and I came through because I went Oh, what's this one more on getting a roommate? Because I hadn't had a roommate for

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this semester. And so they were all excited and I went back through the bathroom and I see

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the girl moving her stuff out. After I got it, she was moving her things out and that's it. You going naive stupid me.

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And she said We forgot something. Like you forgot something. She said, Yeah, we forgot something. Later on the door advisor said to be

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that the parents didn't want her rooming with anyone black. So they decided not to move in and they wanted a completely new dorm.

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And at least I was maybe they lied about it, but they did say the door director said that they were not going to give her a new room.

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She either had to live in that room or find another place, the lid, and that made me feel good, but it was very

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uncomfortable hearing that this person didn't know me. And, you know, just because she saw me, she moved out,

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she didn't give me or the situation a chance at all. Wasn't even like a day or a night or two days.

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It was like move your stuff in and then things are in when I came in and then move that directly. I'm so that wasn't a great feeling.

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You know, when I wasn't accustomed to be like racism was very most times subtle. This is like in your face, so to speak. So that was probably one of

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the worst situations that I had been on campus. Yeah. So gross. Yeah. So to answer your question,

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no, they didn't really have a problem with me being there. They were just happy that I was going to college.

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That was a big thing back there. Back then. You know, your kids were going to college, so it was something to be very proud of.

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It's great to have supportive parents. Okay? So the next part is just like general life on campus. Like your experiences, this and that.

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Okay, So, um, what do you remember your favorite classes? Most of my favorite classes had to do with education because I was an education major.

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Some of our Black Studies classes. So I can't really say just I loved education. So they were not as large as some of those sociology classes,

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psychology classes, which could at times had like three or 400 people in a class. So being an education, those were probably

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probably the better classes. And yeah, and I met like a lot of people in my education credits that are still my friends.

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So I would say those are probably the better. Those are cancers that I remember. As far as living in a dorm. Like I was saying, like on

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everyday life was really, really different. Again, I lived in to o for pin cater F for four years, which was unheard of.

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They thought it was like everybody was moving because of the lottery. They didn't want to be placed with someone they didn't know.

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I just kind of like left it up to chance. So I was in two O four pin cater f. My phone number was 7381058 is just stated by y and I,

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you know, I watch people come and go. But in that dorm, like I said, there were no blacks in that dorm effect. My freshman year and sophomore year,

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all of the blacks were in pancake or B, which was crazy. It was maybe like two or three people in

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other pin caters and it went from A1 to A2, Elmore, something p I don't know. It was a lot of them. But that was really different.

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I had a lot of them. I actually, I guess because I was the only black people on in that dorm were sort of curious,

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but they had a lot of respect it and it got to the point that I have a friend, like I have a group of friends now

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that came from pig K to recolor. So the big gate or princess. And they were very protective for some, I mean, all of them were

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very protective of B. Still are. I had the kind of personality though that I kind of like took charge of phasing.

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You know, my, my mindset was I never looked at like adversity or race or whatever is holding me back.

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And I think that it was a learning experience, not only for the white students that were in the dorm that I associated with.

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Also everyone, because they had a lot of people have never been involved with any blacks before. They had these preconceived notions

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about blacks were some other ones in my dorm. Not the ones that I'm like really in that I'm really friends with now they had some some racist attitudes.

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Them a lot of them were curious about you though, the hair and, you know, just our culture and things that we did.

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I was not involved in some of the things that were going on with my friends that lived on the other part of the campus.

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Like back then we had big frozen. I remember one of my one of my friends and we're still friends now, African-American.

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They would comb their hair and sometimes the hair would be in the sink and they would say, why are they let their pubic hairs

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leaving their pubic hairs indistinct like those kinds of things. But my group of friends, they were not the kind that would just kind

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of like take anything lying down. So they were always quick to defend and, you know, just let people know where they were, who they were.

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And I think going to the University of Delaware as an African-American, you had to be comfortable with who you are,

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know who you were, and, you know, just kind of work through the system. So I think it was a certain mindset

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that you had to have. Just being in that situation. Wow, Very, very cool. I love hearing about that.

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So what I'd like to go on to France, I heard that you're founding member of an app, the first African-American from campus.

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Can you tell me about that? Okay. Yeah. We chartered back in 1970 spot well, actually feel 75 because we started

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the process in January. It took all those ten months before we were actually became deltas because of the the process.

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I wasn't as involved with the process of soap as some of my other line sisters. But because we were the first African American sorority,

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we had to like pave the way in terms of the mindset of the university and how they viewed us. The sum of the students and how they viewed

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just an all African-American group or sorority. They wanted us to sort of like assimilate and become a part of who

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they were versus a part of who we were because it's a national organization. So there were plenty of

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rules and regulations that apply to us that couldn't be applied to University of Delaware and air their set of rules.

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They want us to be a part of their panel clinic. But it was like some other things were not conducive to what we were doing.

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I remember we were plaguing because they're a pledge processes a lot different. Then some of the white students with Mach, what we were doing and T's are steps

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and say all kinds of things, but we handled it. We always handled it. The process was was a lot different.

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The reception after time was a little a lot different than when we first started out. We did have to like paved the way

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that then we had the frets come on, accused the capitalism it AKs scanning but it was a process and it wasn't easy. It's never easy being the first of anything.

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Founding member. So 75 was in 19 effect. These are all of the lines when we hit her, 45th.

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These are all the lines that we had that was afterwards. Those were the names, what are called charter line.

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There. We have had minds on campus since 1975 and they're still there growing strong,

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sound, real proud and happy event. So happy to have been involved with it. But again, because of who we were, we were when we pledge,

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we had to make sure that our QM or GPA was high because we had an example. As a matter of fact, both of us had very high GPAs while pledging.

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Because the big sisters who were will actually agonists greed. She was a dean at the time. She was on campus,

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and she was really the one who kept us together and fought for us to become a part of the campus.

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And so we had to like our, our perception and our reputation had to be almost splices. So our grades were

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were in on-point like we probably had the highest grade point average or sorority or fraternity on campus. And they taught us

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that we had to stick together, work together. Build each other up. So if you are good at math and I was good in science than we were in a library, you know,

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making sure that you do almost as much as I did in science and AI and vice versa. So our grades were very, you know, they were pretty high, you know,

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and we'd had to do projects that were visible like Big Sister program we did with some of the outline, the elementary schools and camp food drives,

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fashion shows, a step show. So we had to do some things that would, that would allow the administration to see us in a positive light.

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Very cool. Okay. So I like to ask about dating life on campus. What was that like? Well, I did that.

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I didn't dating like on campus. See, we had a core, although there were very few of us African Americans,

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or we tend to stick together a lot of time. So you had your group that you you kind of hung out with and then interact with. And so I don't know if dating was a problem.

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I didn't date that much in like in college a really my boyfriend was off campus and that was for a reason. It was a name. And so I mean,

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even though I did a lot of activities, interacting, I did not date in a racially on on campus. I had like my princess

00:23:06.920 - 00:23:15.100

the pin cane or princes. We all hung together and they had brothers and friends, but it was more like a buddy kind of thing.

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I don t think I was ever really interested in dating inner racially. Although foreigners, not necessarily like whites from campus,

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but foreign students always seem to be attracted to be for some reason or another. But I was I

00:23:33.560 - 00:23:40.220

don't think daddy was a problem for most of us. Because again, sometimes when you are in a minority,

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you said you tend to stick together and via belonging to a sorority, fraternities and all of that, we tend to like hang out together.

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But I like also because I was a part of different kinds of groups and different, you know, different time. So I was lucky to be able to

00:24:02.120 - 00:24:10.670

maybe interact and transition among groups. And so, you know, you did things with whenever two times where like I said,

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I had like friends from pin care. We're still friends. We did a lot of things together and we never I think being a part of them,

00:24:20.210 - 00:24:30.850

being a part of me. And then that group. I did not look at race as it wasn't as in my face because

00:24:30.850 - 00:24:39.410

they were open and willing. And I don't know if they were to Jewish girls. And you know of there was a girl,

00:24:39.410 - 00:24:51.800

she called her some wasp and there were other ones. So our group, we're sort of diversed. And I don't know if we look at race as,

00:24:51.800 - 00:25:03.500

as much as maybe the next group. It was definitely there was racial tension and undertone, definitely while I was there and you

00:25:03.500 - 00:25:14.180

could feel it more in the community then I did per se on campus. That was their main people would give you loops and say things in.

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But again, we we have on our own because we were the people that I'll go with. We like I said,

00:25:22.520 - 00:25:32.040

we had a certain mindset, a certain skill set. And you just handled your business basically, you said what you meant

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and you meant when you said and people respected that. But you had a lot of there were times when there wasn't it again,

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because say, late sixties, early sixties, there were African Americans on campus like Tim Archer and you know what,

00:25:52.070 - 00:25:59.150

Ryan Whittington and a lot of those havens where they kinda like paid the road. There were a lot of boycotts

00:25:59.150 - 00:26:09.560

and there were a lot of racial tension before us. So those guys really paved the way for us. Like that's how we got a lot

00:26:09.560 - 00:26:16.730

of black studies programs. It's like, wow, we got more next staffed or bought, was more open to

00:26:16.730 - 00:26:27.280

a lot of things because of what they do. But we, it was rare to see someone that looked like you on campus a lot

00:26:27.280 - 00:26:35.110

of times or as a faculty member? Yeah. It's really interesting that you said lucky because

00:26:35.110 - 00:26:43.540

my first interview was with a lady who was in the late 60s and she, she protested for African American Studies program, right?

00:26:43.540 - 00:26:56.020

They were the ones that they paved the way. Because after that, when I came there was a more willingness and enter bond. Was president at the time.

00:26:56.020 - 00:27:05.600

So, you know, he he was, I don't know, forest what it was because of him. The protest and things that were going on,

00:27:05.600 - 00:27:14.060

on campus that I think a lot of black studies programs became a part of it. Then there was like the black peer counseling.

00:27:14.060 - 00:27:22.560

They came from the counseling department with Dan is in tumours are lots and lots of things just because of those before us.

00:27:22.560 - 00:27:31.250

As I guess, with us being a charter line with deltas because of what we did as a sorority paved the way

00:27:31.250 - 00:27:42.290

for other things at home. On campus. Yeah. Okay. Cool. So were you involved in sports or clubs?

00:27:42.290 - 00:27:51.260

Mostly cubs. I was not involved in a lot of clubs. I mean, like sports or any went to all the gains because my friends

00:27:51.260 - 00:27:59.090

were my friend was a cheerleader in the football team. Most of them lived on North Campus to so

00:27:59.090 - 00:28:07.250

a day and that was another thing when I when I was on North Campus because that was only were like upperclass men and they were all in

00:28:07.250 - 00:28:15.770

pink cater be I don't know if that was my designer. What they sort of like took care of me too. So I knew a lot of

00:28:15.770 - 00:28:24.350

the upperclassmen when I was just a freshman, like some of the football team I DO Gregory Lane, Gregory and, you know, Johnny Bail

00:28:24.350 - 00:28:34.370

like a lot of those people that were there before me. So it was it was interesting that I think going to the University of Delaware had

00:28:34.370 - 00:28:49.600

its ups and downs and benefits and all that. Yeah. So again, no, mostly clubs. Would you like to more into your clubs or well,

00:28:49.600 - 00:28:56.960

it wasn't I wasn't on like in a lot of things my like I said, my network was through just the people that I hung

00:28:56.960 - 00:29:04.930

out with for some reason that I was not as active as in high school. Their eyes go L's and everything. Student cancel your book,

00:29:04.930 - 00:29:12.800

you name it, drama. I was that was it. But in college it was like it was different. It was for different.

00:29:12.800 - 00:29:20.060

But like I said, I was a part of vaccine Union. I was trained as a black peer group counselor,

00:29:20.060 - 00:29:29.320

you know, and then I had my sorority. So not, not necessarily sports. I would love to hear more the Black Student Union,

00:29:29.320 - 00:29:36.590

my last interviewee was part of that table. Could you tell me what you did for them? Well, just being a member and that was the vaccine.

00:29:36.590 - 00:29:44.420

You knew they were the ones that started like doing the the the black festivals, the black arts festivals.

00:29:44.420 - 00:29:51.460

I remember like back in the day, they used to have like different groups on campus, but it was, it was,

00:29:51.460 - 00:29:59.640

it was the Black Student Union that started having like the black festival down there and it was like every year backwards festival.

00:29:59.640 - 00:30:05.900

And we use that we had tower of power one year from down there. It was good. Yeah. Yeah.

00:30:05.900 - 00:30:13.040

That's cool. That's cool. I I didn't I didn't know there was flat festivals, So yeah,

00:30:13.040 - 00:30:24.040

backwards festival that we start they started it. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if that kind of thing still goes on. I am not real sure.

00:30:24.040 - 00:30:33.650

I'm not I don't know. I can't say yay or nay today. That's cool. Thank you. Okay. So this next part is about with the racial climate on campus.

00:30:33.650 - 00:30:43.430

Earlier you said that there was a tension. What do you, do you have any like huge things that stick out about your experiences with

00:30:43.430 - 00:30:53.150

racism besides your roommate or I tend to try to forget those things, but it was it was it was more like an underlying feeling

00:30:53.150 - 00:31:03.450

more in the community to then, you know, because when you're walking on walking downtown and on Main Street or say like in the

00:31:03.450 - 00:31:12.150

in the drugstore or any of those stores. They were always kinda like following you around and, you know, like can I help you?

00:31:12.150 - 00:31:23.450

Can I help you or they standing by the door, basically, it's making like sort of like trying to intimidate you. So was it was more of that kind of thing,

00:31:23.450 - 00:31:29.750

that community, I mean, even if you look at the makeup back then were on the other side of the tracks.

00:31:29.750 - 00:31:38.220

It was weird to African Americans wearing weights were on this side and so it was sort of like they tried to make you stay that way.

00:31:38.220 - 00:31:46.830

But the thing that we were from all different areas, yeah. Everybody brought their own set of what they were willing to tolerate.

00:31:46.830 - 00:31:59.510

So you gotta like with downtown like, you know, all my ear and I'm going to stay here, so to speak. Okay. Kind of went over that one.

00:31:59.510 - 00:32:10.070

Okay. So work. Did you have any like, I don't know, this was the seventies. I'm not quite sure what was going on.

00:32:10.070 - 00:32:21.320

Was there any like civil rights issues? We're being in the time that you were there. There weren't as many civil rights issues that we

00:32:21.320 - 00:32:27.950

were participating in during that time when I was there, there were always some kind of protests about something else.

00:32:27.950 - 00:32:40.220

Like I remember we had the what do they call it? The guys were they ran the strippers. They ran through town with no clothes on.

00:32:40.220 - 00:32:47.630

What were they called? No, they weren't called it. It was I think they were doing that all over everywhere.

00:32:47.630 - 00:33:01.140

And not very many black people participated in that though. They were called the child to thicken a day. Oh my gosh, strikers,

00:33:01.140 - 00:33:11.690

strikers, they were called speakers. And so they were like, But neck, it was like hundreds of them and they would just run

00:33:11.690 - 00:33:21.030

through Main Street or rent through the campus and protest and God knows what. But yeah, there were that air. They used to do some really wild things and

00:33:21.030 - 00:33:30.470

I can, I can say, I don't think very many, if any, African Americans, you didn't see a lot of that happening.

00:33:30.470 - 00:33:38.120

What else? They had different kinds of protests, like the strikers, if you can just imagine Main Street with

00:33:38.120 - 00:33:45.260

hundreds of new people just running down the street. That's what happened. What did the years that I happened to

00:33:45.260 - 00:33:53.900

be sitting in a car with one of my actually wanted to print says Isn't that like people with all these little dangling, everything,

00:33:53.900 - 00:34:03.710

it was so different, but not necessarily we were doing a boycotting and those things that happened before is because like I said,

00:34:03.710 - 00:34:14.180

they paid a lot of ways for us already. You always had to go in and make sure like, one of the things that I find that we did was to

00:34:14.180 - 00:34:25.740

make sure that there were key people. We knew African-Americans in different situations like different clubs and different sports events.

00:34:25.740 - 00:34:33.890

Like, for instance, I remember Lisa, she was she was on the yearbook staff and so, you know, you had to fight to make sure

00:34:33.890 - 00:34:41.570

that the African Americans were represented it in the sports and the activities that were going on campus. So it was always

00:34:41.570 - 00:34:48.400

important to make sure that we had someone in a position that could fight for us when we weren't there.

00:34:48.400 - 00:34:58.980

I think that was one of the big issues because if you didn't, you might be left out in some sort of way. Yeah.

00:35:00.700 - 00:35:10.470

Okay. So in listening and talking to other people, I was told that UD would encourage people to pursue

00:35:10.470 - 00:35:16.520

mostly African-American people would to pursue certain majors and then were discouraged from pursuing others.

00:35:16.520 - 00:35:25.520

Did you face anything like that? Well, I think that happened either even before you came on campus, like if you were involved

00:35:25.520 - 00:35:39.560

in some high schools tend to, cancers tend to funnel you into certain certain majors. So I think that was part

00:35:39.560 - 00:35:46.910

of a culture even before we get to the University of Delaware. I mean, I know that a lot of the counselors

00:35:46.910 - 00:35:54.200

weren't trying to direct those. I didn't feel like my Canvas I can't even remember when it comes to her was directed me

00:35:54.200 - 00:36:06.110

in the proper way for classes even because I took my freshman year crazy class is my first semester because I didn't know. You're not supposed to take biology

00:36:06.110 - 00:36:13.370

and sociology, psychology, and all these reading glasses all at the same time. But no one told me that.

00:36:13.370 - 00:36:24.450

It's like you don't do that and you don't come in as a freshman 18 hours or something like that? No one told me that because I wasn't again,

00:36:24.450 - 00:36:34.130

I didn't have that that college try Upward Bound counselors and people to help you out initially. But it was after I had been in school

00:36:34.130 - 00:36:42.500

like a semester that I've learned quickly, there's certain things you don't do. But again, had I had the proper guidance from

00:36:42.500 - 00:36:50.540

the University of Delaware, like some of their staff members, they would have said as a freshman, these are take 12 or 15

00:36:50.540 - 00:37:00.280

that all letting these crazy classes, but I didn't know. So you find that the hard way, but yeah. So I think we were directed in certain areas.

00:37:00.280 - 00:37:09.880

There were a few that went into other fields. And when you find if you look at the roster or the graduation graduation during that time,

00:37:09.880 - 00:37:16.910

we were in certain fields. You get certain like a small minority that were maybe an engineering or

00:37:16.910 - 00:37:26.660

The sciences or communications, like I know one of my own. Why was there a special she was the first African American

00:37:26.660 - 00:37:34.930

engineer in that program. Her name was Bill T. Jones Potter back in that day and she was really smart.

00:37:34.930 - 00:37:42.270

But you just weren't geared or steered in that direction. But again, that wasn't just from the University of Delaware,

00:37:42.270 - 00:37:54.240

That was just from the culture that we live in previous to that too. Yeah. So you're already talked about

00:37:54.240 - 00:38:01.450

them falling around on Main Street and stuff like that. But I'd like to ask you about the police on like the police in New York.

00:38:01.450 - 00:38:13.680

Were you racially profiled? Basic, I think boys boarded up. My my my my male friends, African-American friends were more profile.

00:38:13.680 - 00:38:24.470

I think by me living on North Campus where there were a lot of times I had to walk home with, you know, the the Caucasians

00:38:24.470 - 00:38:32.990

and I was with them. I wasn't as profile. But again, I had friends all over like that. A lot of times they were

00:38:32.990 - 00:38:43.000

and gotten into situations. But me like for me personally, it wasn't felt as much like the police. I don't I don't think so.

00:38:43.000 - 00:38:54.220

And again, it was my situation too because I'm living on North Campus and a lot of times I'm on a bus or I'm walking with white students who,

00:38:54.220 - 00:39:02.430

you know, like I said, they were like they were my friends. I treated them as my friend and they treated me as a friend and, you know,

00:39:02.430 - 00:39:09.900

I think having that relationship and having them go home with me or I went on with them, or I taught them how to

00:39:09.900 - 00:39:18.570

dance and taught them about black culture, told him about her hair, me know, and I learned a lot of a lot of things from them too about, you know, um,

00:39:18.570 - 00:39:27.430

I think going to the University of Delaware, some of the students in the dorm, they got up the courage to ask certain questions.

00:39:27.430 - 00:39:39.870

And I was very deliberate in my answers. I had never held back. I always say what I thought and I think by me being candid and honest,

00:39:39.870 - 00:39:48.880

some of them walked away being different people from when they left home. So, but like I said, my little princes,

00:39:48.880 - 00:39:57.030

they, they were sort of open-minded anyway. So we we sort of had a whole different I don't know, we just looked at things a

00:39:57.030 - 00:40:10.350

little bit differently. I was blessed to have the, the intermittency of my own core group of people to African Americans,

00:40:10.350 - 00:40:20.370

along with being involved with different people, different cultures. And then I guess my personality, I'm, I'm pretty like I can

00:40:20.370 - 00:40:31.390

deal like my my mindset is like this is why I'm comfortable with where I'm going. My mindset isn't so much of that.

00:40:31.390 - 00:40:40.230

I'm going to let someone determined who I am. I'm not going to let you decide who are going to be or I'm gonna do sidelong, would it be?

00:40:40.230 - 00:40:47.100

And how I feel about me. You can't make me feel like you want me to feel. So I guess I've always been

00:40:47.100 - 00:40:59.070

sort of like that and it's kind of paid off that I'm my own person in an uncomfortable I worked in my After the University of Delaware,

00:40:59.070 - 00:41:11.470

I think you'd University of Delaware was more of a realistic goal of how the world or how, how we live or interact.

00:41:11.470 - 00:41:20.430

We have to interact and live with people of different cultures. And I think because I went to the University of Delaware of my it did

00:41:20.430 - 00:41:32.330

provide me with some skills that I could use later on in life. It wasn't going it wasn't like I was around all black people,

00:41:32.330 - 00:41:41.580

which I was accustomed to learn to deal with all kinds of situations. So in that respect, going to University of Delaware

00:41:41.580 - 00:41:50.670

was a good thing because you did. It wasn't represented representative of what the real-world was about. You know, you had people who

00:41:50.670 - 00:42:00.990

were going to dislike you because of your color of your skin or like you because of the color of the skin. So it was a good representation.

00:42:00.990 - 00:42:11.590

They taught you to to use your skills learned in school, went to to be comfortable with who you are and

00:42:11.590 - 00:42:21.210

where you're going in to just kinda like deal with situations. You get to know you chose your battles, but you still didn't do it yourself.

00:42:21.210 - 00:42:33.030

Yeah, Very cool. Okay. This next part is more of like it's just like personal interactions every day.

00:42:33.030 - 00:42:42.450

So I asked you if he knew James Noone and you did. Tell me about him. Well, James james Luna actually was

00:42:42.450 - 00:42:50.180

the person for both African Americans on campus. He was War I. He was a mentor, he was a leader.

00:42:50.180 - 00:43:01.000

He liked, told you like straight up how it was. I mean, he encouraged he encouraged people to see the other side.

00:43:01.010 - 00:43:11.820

He was that person that was going to be there even when you left campus. Like if you had to get a reference or if you needed

00:43:11.820 - 00:43:19.170

some advice or any of those kinds of things, people do that James was gonna be there for you. So he was he was more or less

00:43:19.170 - 00:43:26.630

like one of the go-to person's score on campus. I didn't take I didn't personally take any classes with him

00:43:26.630 - 00:43:34.920

because he was black studies, but I knew them because of other people when interaction and he always opened his arms and because my friend,

00:43:34.920 - 00:43:44.740

Lady and Nathan eat if it Terry all that and we're like Coast and cozy evolve. So once you became like once he knew you eat,

00:43:44.740 - 00:43:51.830

do you like you're not in my class and I'm not going to deal with you. It's like you're a year when his campus,

00:43:51.830 - 00:44:01.920

I'm going to help you to maneuver and matriculate and get all that you can allophone. You know, this this experience.

00:44:01.920 - 00:44:10.860

So that was James Davis did that. I knew Dr. Newton. Yeah. Yeah, I saw I saw an interview with him and he seems like he

00:44:10.860 - 00:44:18.550

seemed like such a powerhouse. He is a powerhouse. I mean, he's, he's just a leader in so many different ways.

00:44:18.550 - 00:44:25.500

And some things that we then want to do and our attitudes, we're not doing this, we're not doing that is I know you do

00:44:25.500 - 00:44:34.290

this because this is going to get you here, where this is going to get you there, and you need to do that for this reason. Once you've gotta listen to

00:44:34.290 - 00:44:45.790

his reasoning and why you should go to a certain event or why you should portray yourself in a certain manner, then you would be like, Oh, okay.

00:44:45.790 - 00:44:52.130

I see. I got you were sort of more or less like, Yeah. He's a very dynamic person.

00:44:52.130 - 00:45:01.090

He's quite a sneaker Tim. Yes, he is. Greatest, weaker. Still love eating, still there the community door every day.

00:45:01.090 - 00:45:11.370

I think this man is like a Eveready batteries. He's doing well. We already went over pink color pancake

00:45:11.370 - 00:45:19.140

or as my life, I loved it. I loved all my people there. I loved AND gate or days the call like a pinky

00:45:19.140 - 00:45:25.050

or by friends used to tease me and say, Oh, you are nerve campers with the rich people or like with the buoys or whatever.

00:45:25.050 - 00:45:31.290

But I mean, I didn't know anything else with pink gate or like I said, my experiences with what

00:45:31.290 - 00:45:39.870

we call the pink gate or princesses was it was good for me. It was a good thing because I I kinda may have

00:45:39.870 - 00:45:48.690

come to the University of Delaware myself, a little chip on my shoulder. But, you know, just are acting as seen, like I said,

00:45:48.690 - 00:45:57.750

just seeing different different cultures, different people, you know, my own people doing well, my own people representing us and

00:45:57.750 - 00:46:11.790

in certain positions was all out two shaped me into who I am today and for my kids do my my my kids would to HBCUs. They were matriculating into

00:46:11.790 - 00:46:20.710

like my daughter went to friends and my son went to Newark charter and friends and they just wanted the black experience,

00:46:20.710 - 00:46:29.230

which was I It was good. I mean, it it was something that they needed and I think it really worked well for them.

00:46:29.230 - 00:46:39.600

Yeah. It's good to get that back-and-forth media. Yeah, definitely. Okay. So this next part is about admin.

00:46:39.600 - 00:46:47.280

You already mentioned that President Obama was a little bit for the African-American studies. Well, it took, I think

00:46:47.280 - 00:46:54.360

it may have taken a little persuading. Well, again, I think it was because I wasn't there, but from what I understand,

00:46:54.360 - 00:47:06.360

the boycotting and the sit-ins and all of those things kind of helped shape his directions, so to speak. I know that when

00:47:06.360 - 00:47:15.370

people would say if you go to the doctor, Dr. Joe box office add-on, you needed financial aid or you had to do was cry,

00:47:16.430 - 00:47:27.070

god help you out. So I think he sort of started to mellow by the time we got there and he would talk about

00:47:27.070 - 00:47:36.660

putting different things in place and some of the things that he did. I think that he started to bend a lot more

00:47:36.660 - 00:47:46.080

during the time that I was there. No, I didn't have any bad experience but I think he he sort of like I said,

00:47:46.080 - 00:47:53.130

he just sort of came around. Well, yeah. And a lot of ways I mean, a lot of things you still had to do, but yeah.

00:47:53.130 - 00:48:02.360

I think that he was, he was actually the one that did start the brain on the black studies programs and try to hire

00:48:02.360 - 00:48:13.190

more African-American faculty members. Yeah. So I think his administration did do a lot of things, but again,

00:48:13.190 - 00:48:22.410

you had to sometimes keep making them aware that we still needed to do more even now, I don't know how much

00:48:22.410 - 00:48:29.550

the University of Delaware has changed from when I was there. I think a lot of it is still in place. And again, we just have

00:48:29.550 - 00:48:39.210

to keep pushing, pushing, pushing to make University of Delaware aware of the needs of African-American students, period. You know?

00:48:39.210 - 00:48:49.690

Definitely. Yeah. Wow. I love hearing about your Ron I m is even there anymore, so great.

00:48:49.690 - 00:49:03.200

Yeah. Okay. The Black Studies Program was very young and the night early seventies. How was everything handled? Like it's so fresh to new?

00:49:03.200 - 00:49:13.620

Well, again, it was once that program came on campus like black studies. Of course, it gave

00:49:13.620 - 00:49:26.010

the black students a sense of belonging. You know, finally, people can learn about us. I know that there was infected with some AI in my dorm.

00:49:26.010 - 00:49:34.650

And sometimes you had to take like you had to take that class in order for your major or it may have been the only thing that fits a lot of ties us,

00:49:34.650 - 00:49:43.140

our students ended up in that class like, like Caucasians. You know, some of the Caucasians weren't that happy about being the mirror,

00:49:43.140 - 00:49:55.940

but I think it was a good learning process for them too. Yeah. We already mentioned that one. So life isn't x-bar is about life.

00:49:55.940 - 00:50:05.970

After you eat your career, you told me that you were the youngest and the first and the only African-American woman

00:50:05.970 - 00:50:15.310

to ever be a negotiator? Well, I was. Okay. So I worked for the SEA NDA,

00:50:15.310 - 00:50:24.780

which is the National Education Association slash Delaware State Education Association. And at the time they, and it was really weird because

00:50:24.780 - 00:50:32.730

you had to own. You should have already taught for four years before you've had that job and there were

00:50:32.730 - 00:50:39.400

certain preliminaries that you should have had. But I don't know. I did well in the interview,

00:50:39.400 - 00:50:48.850

it was like an intern program. So I feel that I realized that I feel a certain amount of slots because I was a woman.

00:50:48.850 - 00:50:56.020

I was African-American. I grew up Jewish, you know, I was young so they could check off a lot of boxes.

00:50:56.020 - 00:51:06.420

And I think like in that interview they were really impressed. As a matter of fact, I was supposed to I called and got the interview

00:51:06.420 - 00:51:14.010

today before they were supposed to go to the board because I put in an application and I was taught through people,

00:51:14.010 - 00:51:23.940

like just go into University of Delaware. And like some of my own life, Dr. Newton, people like that. And Agnes green, they were always

00:51:23.940 - 00:51:32.250

told us about your protocols. So I had put in an application add nerdy thing, happened to call that day and said,

00:51:32.250 - 00:51:37.680

you know, taken out the status of my application. They said they they'd get it. So I was like,

00:51:37.680 - 00:51:44.130

No, I sent it in Hayward. I will can you come in tonight, which I thought was odd. It was like coming in

00:51:44.130 - 00:51:48.600

at night for an interview. And when I went to the interview, we're like, well, you have to come

00:51:48.600 - 00:51:54.120

tonight because this is going to be we're going to divorce tomorrow. Yeah. So I went to

00:51:54.120 - 00:52:02.470

the interview and I from what I understood, they were actually going to hire a white male. But after I interviewed,

00:52:02.470 - 00:52:10.680

I was the one that was hired because they were impressed with the inner root plus the fact that going to the University of Delaware did

00:52:10.680 - 00:52:18.720

actually sort of open doors in some respect because they figured, I mean, they weren't like the guy said, you went to University of Delaware,

00:52:18.720 - 00:52:26.070

you did well, you know, you Lee believed that you will be an asset in terms of being either to interact

00:52:26.070 - 00:52:33.900

with all kinds of groups of people. So I think that it was it was good in that respect by going there.

00:52:33.900 - 00:52:43.410

And so I was hired as a unit serve director intern and I found that I was the youngest. And you go through the years, I'm like, whoa,

00:52:43.410 - 00:52:53.180

so I was there doing the negotiation process. We're like, a lot of the school districts not hadn't even been a teacher.

00:52:53.180 - 00:53:04.200

But it was like there was called the unit surge internship. In fact, I the guy who came after me, I actually kinda like

00:53:04.200 - 00:53:12.170

help train them and I was under him. But It was like, yeah, that's what happens. So I blessed.

00:53:12.170 - 00:53:18.810

I enjoy that job too. That was great. I was making big buddy in terms of what I shouldn't be getting.

00:53:18.810 - 00:53:33.530

So that was interesting that I was happy. Well, so lucky that you while not lucky, I mean, you've got it on your merits. I just meant if I had not called that day,

00:53:33.530 - 00:53:41.910

I probably wouldn't have gotten a job. But again, like just the skills learned from one. I'll tell you, pledging really helped me

00:53:41.910 - 00:53:54.180

in and being able to, you know, just kinda work through things in that interview process. We learned a lot about etiquette and

00:53:54.180 - 00:54:01.290

knows the women at trained us in place. This will be done on London, the chapter which is the sorority, that's the grown-ups.

00:54:01.290 - 00:54:12.120

I used to call them the grown-ups. They really in a dean, they really taught us a lot on, on a process. So just, just that simple thing of calling to

00:54:12.120 - 00:54:19.020

find out where you are in that process actually helped me to get the job. I probably would not have known that had they

00:54:19.020 - 00:54:29.010

not taught us certain things we had to do. And then going to the University of Delaware and their minds, you were certain kind of person to

00:54:29.010 - 00:54:40.600

be able to get through the University of Delaware program. So I guess it had its merit. So what Okay.

00:54:40.600 - 00:54:50.840

What did you do with the program? What did you do in the program? Where the SEA and yeah. As you had 21, negotiate the contract,

00:54:50.840 - 00:55:00.060

teachers contracts, you had to go disputes, teacher principal disputes. You were like the liaison dislike it was a union. Yeah.

00:55:00.060 - 00:55:08.610

So it was a teachers union activity. So those things on a daily basis on you got workshops, just developing

00:55:08.610 - 00:55:16.080

and going to different workshops, providing workshops experiences for teachers in their area and just

00:55:16.080 - 00:55:22.820

generally those kinds of things. Yeah. That was my first job and then I ended up going into the classroom,

00:55:22.820 - 00:55:33.000

which was interesting because what am I first principles was whether the principles that I had to kinda like b to the mediator for

00:55:33.000 - 00:55:40.760

a hill and another, and another teacher. So I was like value or the other side that it fits. So that was interesting.

00:55:40.760 - 00:55:49.800

Going from the person who was sort of like not the disciplinarian, but kind of a negotiator or a mediator in disputes.

00:55:49.800 - 00:56:01.890

And now they're your boss. So I taught actually, actually through college because I did like junior college.

00:56:01.890 - 00:56:16.800

I worked at Dell tech before, um, you know, so I had the whole gamut. Be great. Okay. So you were so young, African-American and you were in one,

00:56:16.800 - 00:56:23.640

I'm assuming that we're awful, a lot of feathers. How did your co-workers treat me as a uterus or a person or is

00:56:23.640 - 00:56:32.980

it like working in the school system? Either? Well, there was really an incident that said I really stood out in my mind.

00:56:32.980 - 00:56:46.490

I can't we can stop this opinion. Io being a units or director interim. I remember going because I had this guy, his name is Chuck valor,

00:56:46.490 - 00:56:56.450

was my the person to that I was trained in under and I remember going into the office in Wilmington and

00:56:56.450 - 00:57:08.580

I noticed a certain attitude with the secretary because the main office was down in Dover. We had like a satellite office here.

00:57:08.580 - 00:57:22.860

And this woman was just kind of like really rude, so to speak in and just like having an issue and me being in YM,

00:57:22.860 - 00:57:31.350

I asked her I said asked her to come to my office because he was a secretary and back then, you know, secretaries

00:57:31.350 - 00:57:41.850

had certain responsibilities. And one of her responsibilities are one of the things that she did was to get

00:57:41.850 - 00:57:53.730

coffee and those kinds of things is set it up for the director of a uterus or a person and just just kinda dislike secretarial duties and

00:57:53.730 - 00:58:02.600

responsibilities back then were a lot different than now, but she had a problem with it. So I IV who I am,

00:58:02.600 - 00:58:09.570

I called her into the office one day and I said to her that I noticed that you seem to have a problem with me.

00:58:09.570 - 00:58:18.330

And I don't know what I've done or what I've said to make you kind of like your attitude and your air and you're just act like

00:58:18.330 - 00:58:24.300

you just don't want to do any of the things that I'm asking you to do that so requirement of the job.

00:58:24.300 - 00:58:31.890

And I said you can speak candidly to speak openly. I just really want to know what's going on inside your head.

00:58:31.890 - 00:58:43.080

She did. She said to me, she was it accustomed to having to wait on or do wit. And a black person told her to

00:58:43.080 - 00:58:52.800

do because that's not where she came from. And that the fact that I'm directing her and I was so much younger than she was. She had a problem with it.

00:58:52.800 - 00:58:59.640

And so she didn't know that it was showing us. I guess it's showing a lot and I can't appreciate it.

00:58:59.640 - 00:59:10.830

And she was like, I didn't grow up that way. You know, there were there was never an African American person that was in that was over me.

00:59:10.830 - 00:59:17.460

And at your age and you're young and you're telling me things that do and she just went on and on and on and on.

00:59:17.460 - 00:59:27.330

And so I said, Well, I'm sorry that you feel that way. But this is where we are today. I am responsible for getting certain things

00:59:27.330 - 00:59:36.900

done and you are responsible for getting certain things done for me. So if you have a problem with it, then I can call the director down in Dover

00:59:36.900 - 00:59:43.330

and tell him that you need to be removed or moved down to Dover. Or maybe you just want to find a different job.

00:59:43.330 - 00:59:50.910

But I am who I am and these are things that you have to do. And so if you have a problem with it, then maybe you should just leave

00:59:50.910 - 00:59:59.280

it at the outside of the door before you come here and deal with me because I'm not going anywhere. And then I did I was

00:59:59.280 - 01:00:07.590

like kinda room that said And can you give me some coffee on the way out, please? So I mean, I know like even

01:00:07.590 - 01:00:17.790

it's been situations where, you know, you can feel it because of your age and because your color and I taught in situations where I had to always

01:00:17.790 - 01:00:25.200

defend my life situations because you're African-American, but you know what? Like I said, you have to have

01:00:25.200 - 01:00:33.570

a certain mindset for certain skill set to be able to deal with that and just make sure that people are treating you the way

01:00:33.570 - 01:00:42.450

that you want to be treated. And you just can't allow little things to balloon and mushroom into bigger things because

01:00:42.450 - 01:00:52.820

they will mushroom into bigger things. So my, my model is also always been nip it in the bud quickly. Because if you don't,

01:00:52.820 - 01:01:03.350

you may find yourself in a situation where you want to smack somebody. So you just have to just be very cognizant of making

01:01:03.350 - 01:01:11.350

sure that people understand where you're coming from and you being the best that you can be. And I taught my kids,

01:01:11.350 - 01:01:19.010

you know, you just work hard UV who you are. You represent yourself when you walk out the door, you're representing your family,

01:01:19.010 - 01:01:28.040

you're representing your people. You're representing yourself. So you just have to make sure that you do certain things and be proud of

01:01:28.040 - 01:01:33.940

who you are, job that you're doing. I don't care what your job is. Make sure you're doing the best. You can.

01:01:33.940 - 01:01:44.980

Watch it off the table. Make sure you're watching you the best table washer out there. And so you can move to be something else. So, you know, you just gotta you have to

01:01:44.980 - 01:01:55.560

do things to until you can do better, so to speak. Yeah. And I always like, I can't do better and I'm going to

01:01:55.560 - 01:02:03.430

do better and I'm going to, you know, you just have to know how to like, just kinda matriculate into whatever situation you're in.

01:02:03.430 - 01:02:11.070

Very, you know, and, and, and be who you are. And I enjoy life and people. And so I'm always

01:02:11.070 - 01:02:20.130

that person who's got to have fun. No matter what you get, you can be bad and have issues, but I'm just going to just be

01:02:20.130 - 01:02:28.130

y I've got to enjoy the situation. I'm going to tell you how I feel and then I'm going to move on. I'm not going to let it stay in my mind.

01:02:28.130 - 01:02:36.470

I never I forgive situations. I don't forget on but I forgive them and you move on. And that's the what because if you don't,

01:02:36.470 - 01:02:52.100

you will let situations eat you up and not be the best you. Yeah. Okay. So this next part is a reflection on your years at UT.

01:02:52.100 - 01:02:58.050

It seems like you've had a pretty positive experience, but I like to. Did you feel like University of Delaware

01:02:58.050 - 01:03:05.850

gave you a good education? I think, yes. I think I had a good education. I not only academically,

01:03:05.850 - 01:03:16.230

but like in other, other experiences to like like I said, just the experiences of being able and having to deal with situations.

01:03:16.230 - 01:03:25.260

I think there they had a great reputation of being a good college as far as education goes. So when you put that,

01:03:25.260 - 01:03:35.580

you've graduated from the University of Delaware on your resume? It's sort of open doors back in that day that more so than putting some other place.

01:03:35.580 - 01:03:44.010

So I think in that respect, University of Delaware, did I got a good education, like I said, in all kinds of ways.

01:03:44.010 - 01:03:55.410

I don't know if the University of Delaware sometimes stepped up as low as as much as they could have in our student teaching situations.

01:03:55.410 - 01:04:09.570

Because again, we were outside of that. That realm of University of Delaware where we were placed into buildings outside like schools that we were seeing teaching in.

01:04:09.570 - 01:04:16.710

And because the University of Delaware had certain districts, the one in a lot of those times

01:04:16.710 - 01:04:26.760

those districts were predominantly white. So you're putting this predominantly, you put 0s on black students in predominantly white situations where

01:04:26.760 - 01:04:34.920

sometimes parents had a problem with it, and sometimes the cooperating teacher had a problem with it.

01:04:34.920 - 01:04:41.970

And my cooperating teacher did our problem with it. But again, I stand up for myself and I found like this,

01:04:41.970 - 01:04:54.090

she said certain things before we, before I even came about BB in black and different and different dialect in different this different

01:04:54.090 - 01:05:02.430

that which I didn't appreciate. So, you know, and what are they and what are the kids spent time kind of told me what

01:05:02.430 - 01:05:13.510

are the little second graders. So I went directly to the source. Then we had a meeting with with my supervisor.

01:05:13.670 - 01:05:20.320

So yeah, but I still think we've got to answer your question. I think I had a pretty

01:05:20.320 - 01:05:33.170

fairly a good education. I think going to the delaware allows us to be pioneers in a lot of situations, to get involved in things

01:05:33.170 - 01:05:42.810

that helped us out later on in life situations. So yeah, it was agreed in pet. I meant lifetime friends and

01:05:42.810 - 01:05:53.220

all different cultures and it's great. I would do it again. I think I would do it again. Yes.

01:05:53.220 - 01:05:59.420

You already reflected on this a lot, but I just like to ask it, how do you think the University of Delaware and

01:05:59.420 - 01:06:17.400

pack that you as a person? I think it impacted me again and in a way that I saw the world afterwards, like and teaching me

01:06:17.400 - 01:06:31.920

the skills that I needed to be successful, so to speak. How to interact with different cultures, different people, how to

01:06:31.920 - 01:06:43.080

stand up for those things that you believed in. It, it's impacted me in terms of again, people sometimes looked at you differently

01:06:43.080 - 01:06:50.960

because you did graduate from uterus nowhere. I mean, when you like I said, if you say you went to Delaware day immediately,

01:06:50.960 - 01:07:03.730

they Delaware State. Delaware State. It was a great institute and it had, you know, it turned out great leaders. But just the fact that people just

01:07:03.730 - 01:07:11.820

automatically assume that if you're black, you had to go into the Delaware State like you couldn't have been a part

01:07:11.820 - 01:07:19.620

of the University of Delaware. So, you know, all of those kinds of things that you learn. I mean, that I learned while

01:07:19.620 - 01:07:29.190

being while getting an education, they're impacted like just everyday experiences and how you have to deal

01:07:29.190 - 01:07:37.110

with the world, you know. So like I said, it was it was great Overall. I think University of Delaware was

01:07:37.110 - 01:07:48.790

a good a good resource for learning in so many different ways. Learning different skills, different people with different every day.

01:07:48.790 - 01:07:57.020

Yeah. So overall, you'd read it as a good experience? It was a good experience. I think they still have a lot more too.

01:07:57.020 - 01:08:06.300

I mean, they need to do a lot more so that they can move past where they were like 40 years ago. Because I don t think they moved very much.

01:08:06.300 - 01:08:15.840

That meter has not moved too much. I think that is almost like they've stood still and time that they need to do more in

01:08:15.840 - 01:08:26.930

recruiting and maintaining and nurturing. In so many ways that's going to move us past where we were 40 years ago.

01:08:26.930 - 01:08:36.060

I mean, I don't even know if the if the enrollment is that much different than it was back then in terms of African-Americans,

01:08:36.060 - 01:08:44.970

so that I personally get a great education. Yes, I got a good education. But it was because of a lot of different variables.

01:08:44.970 - 01:08:54.480

I think they still need to move on. They have a lot further to go. I think what you're doing is it is a good example of

01:08:54.480 - 01:09:05.040

trying to get things to move past where it was 40 some years ago. Because you as a student, by having to interview

01:09:05.040 - 01:09:15.650

or talk with other African Americans, we are wherever you are. In terms of your thinking, I'm sure he's going to change are involved or

01:09:15.650 - 01:09:22.980

or be reconfirmed in your thinking just by having to go through this process? I think yeah.

01:09:22.980 - 01:09:29.380

Yeah, it's been it's been interesting. Yeah. I like talking to older people, getting their experience.

01:09:29.380 - 01:09:41.560

I'm very sorry. I just TZ this teasing but my grandson things I'm 45 and I let them like,

01:09:41.560 - 01:09:57.810

yep, that's how it will look. Very cool. So that's the end of my formal questions. If there's any like,

01:09:57.810 - 01:10:05.020

interesting story you want to talk about, are any like haha did or just anything you wanted to talk about?

01:10:05.020 - 01:10:12.780

Well, I don't know. I think I'd talked and talked and talked and talked. I don't really know

01:10:12.780 - 01:10:22.640

of I can't think of anything right now. I really want to just kinda say thank you and, and your professor and anybody

01:10:22.640 - 01:10:33.940

that is involved in making this happen, I think it's a good thing because it's definitely needed. University of Delaware is

01:10:33.940 - 01:10:41.330

it's moving in the right direction. We just need to keep pushing them a little more. But yeah, I don't I don't know.

01:10:41.330 - 01:10:50.910

I I talked to some of my friends that we call the princess and they were like they said, make sure that you just tell them

01:10:50.910 - 01:10:59.790

that you taught us how to do to bump him. We were singing gladness, David, you were always glad if we were to Pepcid, you know, this.

01:10:59.790 - 01:11:04.950

They were like they never really thought of me because I said, Well, how did you guys really

01:11:04.950 - 01:11:14.580

feel having me as your black friends? Like I like most of them didn't have and they were like, they never really thought of me as

01:11:14.580 - 01:11:22.270

being black or anything else. And, you know, somehow we're saying that, you know, they came from families where they had

01:11:22.270 - 01:11:33.360

nannies, maids or whatever. But so they had some kind of contact, but it was never on that level. You know, they have learned and I've

01:11:33.360 - 01:11:42.540

learned in so they were like, We just loved you and so and that is evidenced. I'm glad that I went

01:11:42.540 - 01:11:53.160

to the University of Delaware. I don't know if I would have as close a core friends that are like Caucasians. If I had not going,

01:11:53.160 - 01:12:04.020

we're friends and it's like we've graduated with 4548 years ago, whatever. And we still get together. You know, I was am I

01:12:04.020 - 01:12:10.380

friends from my African-American friends and my sores or even how many that they were in the hospital

01:12:10.380 - 01:12:18.110

when I had a major stroke and I couldn't walk and it's in a wheelchair and all that other good stuff and they were coming to visit as well.

01:12:18.110 - 01:12:28.390

So, you know, going to notice if Delaware and and building those relationships and it was all good. I mean, I love my sorority ions.

01:12:28.390 - 01:12:37.140

I don't know if I had gone to the doors, the Delaware if I would even be a delta or be as involved because the process was so

01:12:37.140 - 01:12:48.450

long and so intimate and involved in. And I'm just building bonds that I don t think I'll ever get again. Like the bond that my line sisters and I

01:12:48.450 - 01:12:56.290

have or are unbreakable. I mean, were there no matter what. I have, like one of my lines sisters in Hawaii,

01:12:56.290 - 01:13:06.840

Ohio, in Chicago, and the ones right here. My daughter wanted to go to college just so she could be a delta because of the bind that she saw

01:13:06.840 - 01:13:14.420

growing up in our household with them always be there. So University of Delaware, I thank them for that because that was

01:13:14.420 - 01:13:24.930

a great opportunity for us to be as one. So yeah. No. I know my lines sisters and like I said,

01:13:24.930 - 01:13:31.470

we it was good. It's all good. I don't know any other stories that it was it was fun.

01:13:31.470 - 01:13:40.150

I would do it again. I didn't ever want to graduate. I was graduated. I was crying because I went to college a little over.

01:13:40.670 - 01:13:52.700

So I think that's the end of my question. Okay. So this is brand of Harry signing out with Mrs. Marlene hurt Duncan.

01:13:52.700 - 01:13:55.900

Thank you. Goodnight.