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All right. We're recording. This is Devin Roth interviewing Patty Wilson a1 on November fifth, 2021 over Zoom for Dr.

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Roger Horowitz is history to 68 class. Alright, so we're gonna start with your experiences growing up in New York. Can you talk to me a little bit

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about what it was like in your neighborhood living on New London road. Sure. So if you're familiar with New London road,

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r has this at the top of the hill and most of the black community was at the bottom of the hill. So in my very early childhood,

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my clothes playmates were those that lived at the top of the hill. And I don't know if you know the background, but my grandfather built

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our houses and then up to going towards Fairfield crest. So in fact, there was our house, my grandparents house, river Andrews has two,

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was the University of Delaware is Chaplin. And then it was the band dad's house, which my grandfather built. The bad decks were Jordanian and

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they Mr. Ban deck was my grandfather's accountant. The next house was the Kohler's house and the colors were related to us by marriage.

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The next house was I've forgotten his name, but he was a mailman. The next house was the Henderson's. The Henderson's were a white family

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and they did business with my grandfather as well. Then the last house was his chambers house. So I share all this with you because

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my grandfather's vision after building Terry manner, which was a black development, was to build an integrated development.

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And so our stretch was the first part of that vision. So growing up very early, my companions were the band at

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kids who were Jordanian and the Henderson kids who were white. And we were the embodiment of this vision of this integrated neighborhood.

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You would not find that any place else in Newark. When we were old enough, we were allowed to go down

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the hill and that's exactly what we called it. I'm to go down the hill. We would play at school hill.

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That it wasn't then the Georgia and Wilson Center, it was called school hill. We would meet other kids there.

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The black community was very close. You will hear people say that all the time. So the people that I played with school with are still people

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that we interact with on a regular basis. I went to IOS for kindergarten. I was the only black kid there. I went to John or downs Elementary.

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I was in the first first grade class. Went down or downs opened. Throughout my time at dawn or gowns Elementary,

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I was the only black kid in the entire grade. The way the school district cut the boundaries was that our house was the last house

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within the genre downs boundary. So all the other black kids who live down the hill went to Central Elementary. We went to downs.

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So my early education, I was always the only one in my entire grade. Which sort of shapes your sense of self, your sense of who your friends are,

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how you interact with them? The kids that I was very close with, as, you know, schoolmates. Somehow, I never got

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invited to the sleepovers. But those were the school friends and did well academically, got along with kids socially.

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But that was my school, like after-school life, um, you know, regular social life. Like I said, I've played with the band acts

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and the the Henderson's. And then, you know, the kids down the hill. Part of the dynamic was,

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of course, we had the pool behind my grandfather's house. And the rule, my grandfather built pools because there was no place for

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black kids to go swimming. And he felt strongly that kids needed swim. So the rule was that. Any kid in the neighborhood

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can come to our house to go swimming as long as an adult was there and as long as they call it first. So that was another part of the interaction.

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Kids would come up the hill and swim at our house. That was before the the pool was built at the Georgia Wilson Center.

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One reason I think they put the pool there is because that was so much a part of my grandfather's philosophy

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that kids should have a place to swim. So the, you know, went to Central middle school and then went on to nor archive.

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I think when I was at new archive, there were under I think under 40 black kids in school. We always had the worst school bus,

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literally the ragged school bus. And we had the black school school bus driver. Mr. choppy was the black school bus driver.

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And the school bus that the black kids, Rodin, was absolutely the most ragged school bus of all the school buses.

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You figured that out, at any rate went too high? I don't know how much detail you want. I left New Archive after my junior year.

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I graduated early, went on to Spelman College for undergrad and Cornell for graduate. So that was the sweep of my life.

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So do you want any do you have any questions about my childhood years? Specific questions? Yeah. You kinda touched on a lot of it.

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You mentioned you had the swimming pool in your backyard. What were there any other what other forms of recreation did

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you participate in growing up in terms of games or sports or anything like that. So you'll hear a lot of people talk about the softball games.

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So the black community was, they would always play baseball and softball at school Hill. And in fact, other black communities

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would come and compete. Sports were a big deal. In the 60s. Newark high was undefeated. And it was because there

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was a group of very athletic young black men, some who went on to play professional football. And they were undefeated for three years.

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So it was like a big deal. Newark football was a big deal. That was three new archive. But as far as

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the black community is concerned, playing baseball at school Hill was part of the the thing to do. I'm not being particularly

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I mean, we swam competitive. My sisters my sister and I and my cousin swam competitively because we were we had the pool,

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you know, the rule in our household, but she had to be up at six o'clock to put chlorine in the pool. We had a guy that came to teach us.

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He's actually Sammy Congo. If you look up, Sammy Congo is now probably one of the most prominent black entrepreneurs

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in Delaware. But when I was growing up, he was my swimming teacher. And the last one in the

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pool had to swim extra. But as not an athletic kid, I was I was fat and wore glasses and the personification of a nerd.

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As far as recreational things. I was in the band front. So I twirl the flags. My art was actually

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the first black girl in your chi span front. My sister was in the band front. So we you know, we did band. But as far as recreation is concerned,

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they had teen night at the George Wilson Center. You did stuff like that. Very interesting, very interesting.

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You mentioned for a lot of your schooling career, you were one of, if not the only African-American students

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in the class or in the grade. Remember any specific instances of discrimination? I know you mentioned the school bus

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and not particularly be invited to certain things. But is there any more? Instances of

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discrimination that you can remember? Well, there was an incident with my sister where one of the moms in the Girl Scout troop

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wouldn't drive her in the car. They were going on a field trip to a museum in Philadelphia and the mom would not drive

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my sister and the car in. My first encounter was in kindergarten. And I considered a little girl by the name of

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wind cells to be my best friend. And I was I had my sixth birthday party. And when cells, mom called my mom and asked how many color kids would

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be at my birthday party. And, you know, my mother was not happy about that conversation.

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But when cells did not come to my birthday party. So that was, you know, I would think my first encounter

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with knowing that I was different. All right. And then outside of school, just in the town of New York, are there any memories that

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stand out to you specifically, maybe on Main Street or so. I was past the point where Main Street was segregated.

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But we certainly knew the State theater for a long time was segregated. And the black black families

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would go to LTE to go to the movies. The drugstore. You didn't go to the drugstore on. But when I came along in the sixties,

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those things were opening up. But I think our parents still had trepidation about we traveled and navigated the community.

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Black people did not go to Deer Park. Deer Park was notoriously racist. And I love the way they make, you know, made themselves over into

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like a fern bar or whatever. But when I was growing up, it was a ramshackle bar and black people were

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definitely not welcome at your bark. On the other hand, Newark was the kind of community where you could walk home from school.

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And you you know, you went to New York department store. My sister's first job was at Newark department store.

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My first job was at the North free library. So I don't want to just focus on those troubling aspects because it wasn't a tight community.

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My cousins lived on the streets, so you can walk down the street and around the corner. And your family's house?

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My grandparents were right next door. So I never needed a babysitter because family was close by. So there were very positive aspects

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of growing up in New York. And as I said, those people that I grew up with extended family or family, not by blood, but by the fact that you grew

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up with them are still very much a part of our lives. That makes sense. And I've, I've, you know,

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this thing I keep hearing about is community in New York. Were there any certain places that were like kind of meeting places,

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like I've heard the insignificance of churches in Newark, especially for the African American community or the George Wilson Center.

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Was there a place where you could sort of congregate and feel like a more a part of a community, if you will.

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So again, my family's kind of an outlier. We went to the Presbyterian Church, First Presbyterian Church. The Presbyterian church movement

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at that point was really reaching out to African Americans. And I don't know if there are any other black families at

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First Presbyterian church at the time. But we went there on a regular basis. But for Easter, We always went to pilgrim Baptist Church.

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The Wilson family always was always associated with Mount Zion. And in fact, my grandfather rebuilt

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Mount Zion and my uncle, my great uncle, my grandfather's brother, made a significant donation to rebuilding Mount Zion.

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There's a story that people tell. It's documented about the rebuilding of benzyne. They were rebuilding the church.

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Move from across the street to this location now they're rebuilding it. There was a store and the roof blew off as it was being rebuilt.

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And the other churches in the community. White churches, Jewish Jewish synagogues contributed to putting the roof,

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the new roof back on. But as far as church life is concerning, the church is certainly were sort of the glue that

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held the community together. I'm going to Hershey Park and during park on bus trips were a big thing. Summer bible camp, It's big thing.

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And that was through the churches. As far as other places to congregate, there was the George Wilson Center was established when I was younger.

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The Georgia Wilson Center and hadn't been open. Of course, the George Wilson Center used to be the colored school,

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and it was left abandoned for a long time. But there was still the playground and there was still the field. So you can still go down there to play.

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And then they establish the center. And they had T9 and things like that. All right. Now, I want to move a little bit more

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into your family. Will get to your grandfather, George Wilson and your father Richard. But outside of that,

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are there any stories that you can remember from older family members about their experiences in Newark, growing up or just living in the community.

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So Wilson's have been in the NORC areas for our back because he can trace right now it seems that for others back we get is 120th three.

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We were always in the iron Hill area associated with the Koch family, crunches bridge. And we also another branch of the family,

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the Cauchy's own property in what is now white Creek State Park, up by the Pennsylvania border. So we were free and we were landowners.

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And it's interesting, and you know, with my background in historic preservation, I've always wanted to do further investigation of this.

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You had these black settlements of black landholders. And it's interesting that in both the case of iron Hill in white clay Creek,

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those settlements are now part of state parks. You know how the property early on left the family,

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the families and became a state property would be an interesting research project. But at any rate, we've

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always been part of Newark. Were one of the earliest families. If you study new works, African-American community,

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you'll find that there are those folks that have been there for a long time. Delaware, because of Delaware,

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slaveholding history, has always had a large free black population. So if you go to other places, people talk about the impact

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of the Great Migration. And people always say, Well, my family came from, my family came from Alabama.

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Well, in Delaware, We were already there. We then had some people who did come to new work through the great migration, largely from Virginia.

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And then the next wave of black families came when Chrysler changed over from a building tanks to building cars.

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And then black, black men particular, we're in particular and transferred from Detroit to New York. So you had another way,

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a black families associated with Chrysler. So if you talk to a lot of black families, you will be able to trace back when they actually came to New York.

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And it's usually one of those one of those milestones. As far as my family is concerned, our families very intentional about

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maintaining our history and maintaining our connections. We still have reunions of my grandfather's siblings.

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So those third cousins and beyond still get together. They still consider nor their home. Oh, my grandfather's siblings. I guess.

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You'd have they they were amongst the first African Americans in New York to go to college. So they,

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they went up the road to Lincoln University. So one was a doctor, one was a dentist, one was a social worker.

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And so they, they felt they had to leave New York in order to grow and pursue their, their lives in

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their histories and that their histories, their lives in their professions. So my grandfather was actually the only one to stay.

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And then the other Wilson's left. But did you know Wilson said, I think then integral to NORC for a long, long time, for centuries.

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It appears so. You've touched on a little bit about George Washington's accomplishments in terms of housing and

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just overall working against discrimination. But if you could expand as much as you'd like on George Wilson's story, as much as you know of it.

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And his goals and what he accomplished and whatnot. Well, I think you probably know a lot about George bullets

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and the builder or the politician and things like that. But my grandfather was a take no prisoners kinda guy.

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He came out of the army and said that he would never let another white man giving them orders. And therefore,

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he always had his own business. After that. He read five newspapers a day. So I don't I don't even know if it's still there.

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But right next to Woolworths on Main Street was the paper store. And so every morning he would go to

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the paper store and he would buy the Wall Street Journal, New York Daily News. At that point. The journal,

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the Wilmington Journal, had to two printings. It has the morning journal in the evening journal. And then what else did he get?

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I forget, but they're always newspapers around. And he read those newspapers. He was very intentional

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about hiring black people in the community. So when he was building Terry manner, when he had George Wilson demolition, he hired folks from the neighborhood.

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So if I didn't know people, otherwise, I wouldn't know them because the men would gather at my grandfather's house at

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the kitchen table six o'clock in the morning to start the day. And then he would deploy them. This person is driving the truck.

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My cousin drove all the heavy equipment. He was the bulldozer operator. My dad and my uncle were both schoolteachers. So during the summer they

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worked with the demolition company as well. So beginning of the day, all of those guys were at the house and then they got their assignments

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and then they they left from there. I mentioned my grandfather's family. He always said that he was the smartest of all the kids,

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but he got the least amount of vegetation. I think he left in the eighth grade. He got thrown out for shooting crafts and sort of made his way from there.

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And he he cared a great deal about education. I remember when I told him I was getting my master's in historic preservation planning.

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And at that point, and he had to remember this was 45 years ago. And you know, not a lot of people were talking about historic preservation

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and certainly black people were. And he was so disappointed. And he said, I thought you're going to be a lawyer.

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You know, he he wanted us to be changemakers and I don't think well, it's not that I don't think I know.

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He didn't understand and I could not articulate at that point the connection I felt between historic preservation and his legacy.

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I remember him taking me on demolition jobs and showing me the progression of a house as he was demolishing it

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because you could see the different nail heads that were used. You can see the different types of wood that were used.

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And I remember that spirits net influenced me. The fact that you can change a community's dynamics by

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changing the landscape, physical landscape. And that's what he did that influence things. So in choosing to go into historic preservation planning

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and choosing Cornell's program, which was part of an urban planning program. I felt I was continuing that legacy. Could not articulate that.

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And I don't think he understood the connection there, but it was very influential in my path my professional path forward.

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If you got put in jail, you call my grandfather and he, you know, he built a lot of folks out. He was not afraid of getting in.

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I don't want to say getting a people space because that wasn't it. Was, you know, he he spoke truth to

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power. I'll put it that way. Meandering all over the place. Devon asked me a question that I mean, that was very informative

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about your grandfather. But your father, Richard Wilson, was also the first Black administrator at the University of Delaware.

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Can you talk a little bit about his accomplishments and you guys doing? So? Daddy was a started

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his career as a Jinshi treatments and Lincoln University, got his degree in physical education, was working as a teacher.

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One anecdote that they used to share is that he just graduated from Lincoln University. This was at a time when

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the Delaware state troopers were not integrated. Louis L. Reading and my grandfather concocted a plan where daddy would

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apply to the state trooper. Like I said, he had just graduated from college with a physical education degree, applied to Delaware state troopers and

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was rejected because they said he had a psychological problem. But they use that case. It did not go to a legal case,

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but they use that case to take it to to confront the the state troopers about their hiring practices and

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to underscore the fact that they were turning away qualified black candidates. Daddy didn't want to be a state trooper. He was there Guinea pig.

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But at any rate, he was a teacher. He was working at Bancroft in Wilmington. And I guess I must have been five or six when he got the job

00:31:28.350 - 00:31:39.970

as the first director of upper bound. And upper bound was that program where they would bring black students on campus to sort of prime

00:31:39.970 - 00:31:51.320

them for matriculation at the school. And so there was I mean, during the summer and things like that. And I remember as

00:31:51.320 - 00:32:03.250

my father was engaged in first upper bound and then admissions, his goal was always not only to get the kids in school,

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but help them stay in gradually. So making sure that the pipeline included retention. Not only recruitment in creating the kind of

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environment that was conducive to black kids success. So there was a lot of programming included. So I remember growing up,

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they had regular cultural programming. I remember seeing Nikki Giovanni, the poet. I remember going to lectures. But they also had things

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like James Brown playing at the field house. So there was that programming that hopefully made the University of Delaware a more friendly environment.

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That issue has still not been resolved at the University of Delaware. My father functioned as the defacto Black dean,

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I guess you would say. I remember him getting calls in the middle of the night when a black kid gotten into trouble for some reason,

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he was the person that they would call, you know, early on when the black student population

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was small enough. He would have my parents would have all the black kids come up to our house and there

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would be a barbecue and because the pool was there, the barbecue and swimming and things like that.

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And I've heard people who are seniors now, older people now, but that first way say that that was part of their education as well.

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To see a black couple, a black family have that kind of activity when that was not what they were used to seeing.

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It was not only that our family, my father was an example of professional success for them, but also the family

00:34:26.080 - 00:34:47.810

was sort of an example as well. Daddy can be very frustrating with the University of Delaware. His expectations of them as far as

00:34:47.810 - 00:35:01.460

what they were offering to black students was not met. His expectation of his own professional growth was frustrated.

00:35:02.130 - 00:35:13.720

Buddy. He hung in there, but it was not it was not ideal. It was, it was challenging for me. And I know his successors,

00:35:13.720 - 00:35:25.360

people like Ron Washington had express the same type of frustration. And, you know, so, you know, I don't know where they are now,

00:35:25.360 - 00:35:35.230

but I know if you look at the stats as far as retention, if you have conversations with black students about

00:35:35.230 - 00:35:52.090

how welcoming University of Delaware is, you know, I think there are still challenges. Absolutely. Can you talk a little bit more

00:35:52.090 - 00:36:03.300

about the university's role in the community and how they affected especially people growing up who weren't particularly involved like

00:36:03.300 - 00:36:12.560

you didn't attend the University of Delaware. But was the impact still felt among community? I didn't attend the

00:36:12.560 - 00:36:25.920

University of Delaware because my father was adamant that we wouldn't. In fact, he at that point was in admissions. And he was very clear that

00:36:25.920 - 00:36:34.250

his daughters would not attend the University of Delaware. And he was pretty insistent that we look at an HBCU because he

00:36:34.250 - 00:36:43.250

thought that that environment would be more conducive, not only to our academic growth, our personal and social growth as well.

00:36:43.250 - 00:36:55.730

He felt that your college experience was not only about growing academically, it was growing as a person, and he did not feel

00:36:55.730 - 00:37:09.550

that University of Delaware was an environment that is conducive to that. So he facilitated my going to Spelman my sister Clark.

00:37:09.550 - 00:37:17.240

He was pretty adamant that we not go someplace else other than the University of Delaware. His other rule was that you

00:37:17.240 - 00:37:27.010

had to go far enough away that she couldn't come home on the weekends to wash your clothes. So that meant at least two hours away.

00:37:27.010 - 00:37:39.490

So that was part of the social growth as well. As far as the university is concerned. You know, I, I look at

00:37:39.490 - 00:37:52.270

things through the physical environment and the encroachment of the University of Delaware and the black neighborhood cannot

00:37:52.270 - 00:38:01.980

be the impact of that cannot be overstated. And it has been gradual. So when I grew up, the land across the street

00:38:01.980 - 00:38:21.670

was an orchard, peach orchard. And that's where Penn Kader is now. So all of that was open field. And the if you go down race street,

00:38:21.670 - 00:38:34.490

half of race street has been chopped off. So the house is my grandfather built on race street. Now the only only house

00:38:34.490 - 00:38:43.670

remaining is my uncle's house. And there were other houses, but they have been, you know, now to university housing.

00:38:43.670 - 00:39:00.370

And Cleveland Avenue is different as well. So that gradual encroachment is not only the University of Delaware, not only did that,

00:39:00.370 - 00:39:10.900

I think because they could, but it was their way of, I think creating an environment that they felt was more

00:39:10.900 - 00:39:23.320

conducive to their growth and their ability to attract students. I remember one community meeting in University of Delaware has

00:39:23.320 - 00:39:32.800

been doing these kind of projects that you're doing for awhile. And, you know, one kid said when students said that they

00:39:32.800 - 00:39:37.960

had been warned not to go into the black neighborhood because of the crime. Well, you know what?

00:39:37.960 - 00:39:47.840

That's not true. We all knew each other. You don't steal from people that, you know. Growing up. We never locked our doors literally.

00:39:47.840 - 00:39:58.570

We never locked our doors. Didn't lock our doors until after I went away to college. So it was not a dangerous environment.

00:39:58.570 - 00:40:14.590

It's not the dangerous environment that the university painted it to be. If you look at early Newark, the railroad tracks were

00:40:14.590 - 00:40:24.730

always very significant and it is the stereotype of across the tracks. But in New York that was very much the case.

00:40:24.730 - 00:40:38.440

In fact, city services up to the sixties. And actually, it's one of the things that my grandfather ran on. City services stopped at the railroad tracks.

00:40:38.440 - 00:40:47.560

Zoning enforcement stopped at the railroad tracks. Code and code enforcement. All those things stopped

00:40:47.560 - 00:40:58.280

that the railroad tracks. So property within the black community was very vulnerable to development. And so whether it's the university

00:40:58.280 - 00:41:08.910

itself or speculators that came along later. Those black families that had been long time property owners were prime because the housing was,

00:41:08.910 - 00:41:19.410

in some instances substandard. And the truth was, as kids growing up, there's no reason to stay more.

00:41:19.410 - 00:41:32.270

If you've got an education, the left. It's not like you were moving back to the house that you grew up on the left. That's very interesting.

00:41:32.270 - 00:41:39.740

I was just going to ask what drew you to leave New York, especially growing up in a family that is has been

00:41:39.740 - 00:41:50.240

so influential in the community for so long. Well, for one thing, if you, if you live it, then sometimes you don't

00:41:50.240 - 00:42:04.590

understand your family's influence or impact. So that was just our reality. I wasn't looking at it from that perspective. What was there for me to do

00:42:04.900 - 00:42:20.060

for my sister or anyone else? I and in fact, I didn't just see myself leaving New York. I saw myself needing Delaware.

00:42:20.060 - 00:42:28.450

I didn't I did not think Delaware had anything to offer me. And I left quickly. I left in my junior year,

00:42:28.450 - 00:42:40.970

after my junior year, I didn't even go through my senior year in high school because I was so eager to leave. I did not think that Newark

00:42:40.970 - 00:42:52.920

offered anything for me socially or professionally. I left at 17 and didn't come back until I was 36.

00:42:53.290 - 00:43:01.040

And only came back then because I've got a divorce. It needed my family network. I came back for families.

00:43:01.040 - 00:43:12.890

I did not come back for any other reason. Although now I'm very engaged in f friends and friends of crunches fridge and a couple of

00:43:12.890 - 00:43:28.310

projects going on around the school hill and things like that. I'm engaged in those things, but came back to Delaware for for family.

00:43:28.310 - 00:43:45.390

It's a good place to raise a family. So my son grew up in Delaware and he went to tunnel. But when I was making those decisions,

00:43:45.390 - 00:43:55.280

no one was talking to me about the benefits of University of Delaware, the benefits of growing up. I mean, I'm starting,

00:43:55.280 - 00:44:07.310

you know, professional life in Delaware. Nobody was saying that to me at all. The expectation was, you know, if you have

00:44:07.310 - 00:44:22.320

those aspirations, you need to leave. That makes sense. So you left at 17. I went to Spelman and then Cornell.

00:44:22.320 - 00:44:29.480

And then can you expand a little bit on your personal accomplishments, especially as a museum professional in

00:44:29.480 - 00:44:41.090

your working life as an adult. So I went to Spelman, went to Cornell and I think when I graduated from Cornell,

00:44:41.090 - 00:44:49.970

I think I was the first, if not one of the first African Americans to get a degree in historic preservation planning.

00:44:49.970 - 00:45:00.620

Blackface involved in preservation at that point came to preservation from housing and land use development, but didn't necessarily have

00:45:00.620 - 00:45:13.640

degrees in preservation planning itself. Started my professional career in Washington DC and worked for the National

00:45:13.640 - 00:45:22.730

Trust for Historic Preservation. That afforded me the opportunity to travel throughout the country. I think I've been

00:45:22.730 - 00:45:34.910

in most of the states except for I think eight. I was working for the national main street center.

00:45:34.910 - 00:45:44.570

So, you know, going to various communities in talking about how to revitalize their store commercial corridors and how

00:45:44.570 - 00:46:00.410

preservation can be an engine for economic development. But came to understand that I really enjoyed running organizations,

00:46:00.410 - 00:46:16.860

enjoy advocacy and running organizations, and had a talent for leadership. Went to I was working actually. Went from Philadelphia,

00:46:16.860 - 00:46:27.970

went from DC to Philadelphia, working for the National Trust. I was there regional director working from New Jersey down through

00:46:27.970 - 00:46:39.650

the West Virginia else I had Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands. And at that point was coming to understand, as I said, that I like running organizations.

00:46:39.650 - 00:46:53.570

I'd like being a boss. I'm a good boss. And so started working. From there. I was working at the preservation of life

00:46:53.570 - 00:47:01.360

for greater Philadelphia as the president of the preservation wise for greater Philadelphia, and I sold a theater to Kenny Gamble.

00:47:01.360 - 00:47:12.800

And if you, which you probably don't know anything about soul music, you know the sound of Philadelphia. So Kenny Gamble was

00:47:12.800 - 00:47:25.740

the producer for Patti La Belle, the O'Jays, the Dell phonics, all that sand to Philadelphia. So, you know those songs when you hear them,

00:47:25.740 - 00:47:34.530

like, you know, money, money, money, money. That's the O'Jays, right? So the guy that produce that music is philadelphia.

00:47:34.530 - 00:47:43.550

And he turned his money over in the city and he was rebuilding the neighborhoods that he grew up in.

00:47:43.550 - 00:47:51.830

He had a vision of an historic theater as the center of a commercial, of a Entertainment District.

00:47:51.830 - 00:48:03.530

And he hired me to take on that project. So as part of that project, I became the executive director of the Rhythm and Blues Foundation.

00:48:03.530 - 00:48:11.810

Because of the Rhythm and Blues Foundation was that organization that, because so many R&B artists had been cheated out of

00:48:11.810 - 00:48:28.430

their royalties in their contracts. Ahmet Ertegun and Berry Gordy from Motown Records actually established funds so that R&B artists in

00:48:28.430 - 00:48:40.610

need could apply to us and we would provide them grants. So if they had medical needs, if they needed to be buried in their family,

00:48:40.610 - 00:48:51.290

didn't have the money to bury them. We did that. We also produced the Pioneer Awards. So I became the executive director,

00:48:51.290 - 00:49:03.230

I mean, the executive producer of shows. You know, I know if you did a show, I didn't show, you know, Aretha Franklin and Dionne Warwick

00:49:03.230 - 00:49:16.820

and binding rate and all those folks. So it's doing that. And then I left there and went to the African American Museum in Philadelphia.

00:49:16.820 - 00:49:28.520

And was there ten years, eight years as president of the museum. And people have asked me, okay, well, how do you tie

00:49:28.520 - 00:49:35.150

together starting off in historic preservation, in ending up working in a museum. And it's all about cultural

00:49:35.150 - 00:49:43.610

resource management. That's what I do. You know whether it is? Architecture, whether it is music,

00:49:43.610 - 00:49:52.910

whether it is fine arts. And now I'm at the Blues Foundation. It's all about managing non-profit organizations that preserved

00:49:52.910 - 00:50:01.220

and celebrate cultural resources. And I specialize in African-American cultural resources. So I've had the great,

00:50:01.220 - 00:50:16.500

good luck doing some really awesome, awesome things and working with wonderful people and doing extensive traveling.

00:50:18.010 - 00:50:28.240

I always say to people don't place six degrees of separation from me. I mean, play six degrees of separation with me because, you know,

00:50:28.240 - 00:50:38.350

I've had the good fortune of knowing people and working with people who are pretty significant and significant because they have made

00:50:38.350 - 00:50:55.020

a mark on the cultural landscape. But I here in Memphis for another month. And then I'm returning to Philadelphia. I'll be the president and CEO of

00:50:55.020 - 00:51:03.720

the Greater Philadelphia Cultural Alliance. It's an arts advocacy organization. It's the voice of Philadelphia's cultural sector

00:51:03.720 - 00:51:14.850

representing some 400 organizations, but it also gives me the opportunity to come back home. My mom is will be 86 tomorrow.

00:51:14.850 - 00:51:26.260

And I have felt the distance. And while Memphis has been a wonderful adventure for me and becoming part

00:51:26.260 - 00:51:38.360

of loose community and lifting up the story of the blues as an African-American cultural resource that has had international

00:51:38.360 - 00:51:50.360

influence on music. I mean, it is the root of Rock and Roll. It is the root of so many of our musical expressions.

00:51:50.360 - 00:51:58.820

Even as I've enjoyed that, I need to come back home for personal reasons and I've had the good fortune to

00:51:58.820 - 00:52:15.050

identify and get a job that is a wonderful professional progression for me. And then did your Did anything you

00:52:15.050 - 00:52:22.580

learned growing up in Newark help you in your career? Because I know your grandfather probably instilled

00:52:22.580 - 00:52:35.760

some values of of hard work and perseverance. Was there anything that you learned in Newark growing up that really helped you throughout your career?

00:52:36.160 - 00:52:53.250

I think we all learn that. I always grew up with the expectation of being an exception. We were never told that we have limits.

00:52:53.590 - 00:53:06.650

So never talked about or perceived what we could not do. And I think if you talk to other people who grew up in New York,

00:53:06.650 - 00:53:25.460

I think they would share that. We were we were, we were nurtured. We were taking care of that old proverbial thing about nowadays,

00:53:25.460 - 00:53:34.020

you can't you can't discipline somebody else's child, but in those days you could, um, you know, it was it was very true.

00:53:34.020 - 00:53:48.040

So we were sheltered. But I think New York, it was a great incubator or talents. If you go through and look

00:53:48.040 - 00:53:56.820

at what people from Newark have accomplished North's black community. As I have accomplished, we're exceptional.

00:53:56.820 - 00:54:05.440

And I say that without hesitation, people readily recognize the professional athletes that came out of that community.

00:54:05.440 - 00:54:17.940

But, you know, if you look at people who are academics, you know, my sister was a television reporter.

00:54:17.950 - 00:54:32.540

You know, we have had others who have gone off into business or, you know, there's one guy who was an ambassador to someplace.

00:54:32.540 - 00:54:46.220

I've forgotten where we do good stuff. We're good people. And I think that there had to be something special

00:54:46.220 - 00:54:59.000

within our community to nurture that exceptionalism. Absolutely. So as we wrap up, is there anything more

00:54:59.000 - 00:55:07.940

you'd like to share about your experiences in it, particularly in Newark or just in life. Well, like that's huge.

00:55:07.940 - 00:55:26.260

Devon. I think. Norc needs to turn its back on itself. For George Wilson to be the only black city council member.

00:55:26.260 - 00:55:35.660

Says something about that more. I used to say that he was the first black city council person. But for him to have

00:55:35.660 - 00:55:46.910

been elected in the sixties. And for there not to have been any other black person in a significant influential political

00:55:46.910 - 00:55:56.480

office in New York. Says something. It says something about, you know, the black folks who felt that they

00:55:56.480 - 00:56:11.120

had to leave in order to accomplish something. But it also says something about how power is exercised in New York.

00:56:11.120 - 00:56:23.990

So there's, there's that. And, you know, it's a conversation that I really think needs to be expanded. The purposeful eraser of the black,

00:56:23.990 - 00:56:40.160

the traditional black neighborhood is something that needs to be discussed as well. And while I appreciate projects like yours, there had been a number

00:56:40.160 - 00:56:53.420

of projects done by students at the University of Delaware that really have used North black community as

00:56:53.420 - 00:57:04.530

sort of a laboratory and not in the best sense of the word. They have been removed from and looked through a microscope at.

00:57:04.530 - 00:57:20.570

Rather than give them my museum background. I'm a great believer in community curation. Community having a role in and being empowered

00:57:20.570 - 00:57:30.470

to be apart of decisions regarding interpretation and how we are presented, and how we think

00:57:30.470 - 00:57:38.120

strategically about the future. And that has not been the case. We haven't been studied, but we have not been

00:57:38.120 - 00:57:49.950

able to contribute to decision-making. And I think that's problematic. I'm thinking more about now that I will be living

00:57:49.950 - 00:58:02.300

in Delaware once again, how I can be more active in holding nor accountable for some of these things. Absolutely.

00:58:02.300 - 00:58:15.110

So there's still work to be done. Absolutely. Exciting, new work to be done. I think we're on the cusp of really because there are

00:58:15.110 - 00:58:25.160

others who are of my generation who are coming back. Some who are retiring. And saying, You know what, I

00:58:25.160 - 00:58:37.810

still have some energy. I left nor successful elsewhere. I'm bringing that energy back to work and I think collectively,

00:58:37.810 - 00:58:50.570

we might be able to make some change. Absolutely. Well, that is all I have for you. I'd like to give you a big thank you for

00:58:50.570 - 00:59:00.540

participating in this project. That's about all I got. Well, I wish you success. Hope you get an a.

00:59:00.610 - 00:59:10.380

You seem to be a very sincere guy, and that counts for a lot. So keep up the good work. Let me know how it goes.