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All right, So we're here with Selma Heinz. We're gonna be starting the interview on 1126. Alright, so I'll start

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with some opening questions. So how is your life before you do like where did you grow up? Okay.

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So I was born and raised in Jamaica. So I came here to America in April of 1972, which in essence would probably be a guest the end of

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my sophomore year in school here. So then when I got to Delaware, I went to Paris, PS DuPont high-school and woman.

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It's called P. P or S, P E R E because I don't want, sometimes I say something and it doesn't, you know, doesn't make sense.

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Yeah. That's where I came and I went to school. I'm trying to take vitamin and I'm trying to turn off my

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volume on my mail. Oh yeah. No problem. That keeps coming.

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It sounds so loud. Figures. I'm not going to be able to. Okay. I'm fine. Okay.

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So I apologize beforehand for that. Okay. No problem. Okay. So that's where that's where I came from.

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I came from my parents separated if you know, all that whole piece, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So when I got ganged up

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stepfather and that's how I ended up in America. Yes. Okay. And then did you

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have any impressions of University of Delaware before you came here? No. I have no idea

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anything about University of Delaware. And what's interesting, when I went to PS DuPont, I met a teacher.

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Her name was Karen Ms. Benton, and she taught high school English. And we connected because of I had an instructor who kept

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marking everything I did incorrect. Because remember in Jamaica we learned the King's English. And so like the word color

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is spelled C-O-L-O-U-R? Yeah. With a U. And so he would mark it wrong. And one day I was in the hallway

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crying, fit crying, and she walked by me to ask was I accelerate cetera. And we got to talk.

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And I remember at that time, so my accent was really thick. And so she took me to her office. She took the test for me.

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She looked it over and she said, well, you should have gotten a 100% based on the scores. Then we start We got into a conversation

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around what did I like? So at the time, I am a fan of British, British lit. So great expert, Charles Dickens,

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Great Expectations, Shakespeare, I knew those writers. And so we got into discussion and so she gave me some kind of test that is they I

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don't I guess there's a placement test. And she started talking about University of Delaware and those the first time I heard

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about University of Delaware. And so then she signed me up for classes at the wheel castle center. You know, you know where that is off

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of it, haven't you? And that was my first experience. I started taking classes while in 11th grade at IPS at the World Cancer Center in English.

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Wow, That's very cool. Yeah. She was she was she was one of the best. Yes. I actually didn't know that in Jamaica

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they told the King King's English. Yes. We are a British territory. Well, it's very cool. Yeah, we gained our independence

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in August of 961962, but we still have all of the British pieces that make up. Yeah.

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So we still use the British pound, that kind of stuff. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. Yeah.

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So when you finally came to the campus at University of Delaware, did you have any first impressions of that? I came through summer.

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I came through, you know, anything about the Upward Bound Program? Yes. Yeah, I heard it.

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Okay. So after I spent that first semester at the Wilkinson Center teeth taken English,

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I then was introduced to Mr. William Morris. He was at the time the director of upper bound. And so we had a conversation and

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I was invited to join upper bound. And so that was the very first time at the campus was that first summer of

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my junior year in high school. At the time I thought it was a beautiful place. That's my first impression.

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It was a beautiful place. It was just different. I mean, I'm coming from warm weather would versus coal,

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whether it was beautiful place, I did not have any. I met the people that worked during the summer.

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But as far as meeting a lot of the students, that did not happen at that point in time that we're in summer school, yes. But it wasn't like a folk school year,

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so then you're not fully immersed in what's going on. It was just so the Summer Program in upper bound was nice.

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The expanded a lot of fun because we went to the theater. I know we went like we took we took trips to museums in DC.

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It was a nice experience. I so I spent two years in upper bound. I spent that year and that's summer. And then I would spent go back

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the second summer right before I started my freshman year at University of Delaware. And then what were

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your impressions freshman year when you went to were you on the Newark campus? So I was on yes,

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I was on campus and I was at the Harrington quad. I don't exist anymore. Yeah. That's actually where I stayed.

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Yeah. I came I was there last night. I was there in the summer. We had some kind of activity

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for my sorority there. And I came during the summer and that's when I realized everything had changed.

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That Harrington quad is no longer there, but that's where my first experience at university of data was Ms. Harrington. And so to give you a background,

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so I come from Jamaica where the majority of the people look like me. Are national arrows look like me.

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We were mixed culture, we called out of many one people. I have people in my direct family than our Caucasian Indian,

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East India and not American Indian but Eastern Asians. So I come to the University of Delaware and the first negative experience I had

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was October during Halloween. So open to make. Uh, we didn't that's not a holiday that we celebrate that I wasn't privy to.

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And we had gone out that evening. When you go into the dining hall, we had dinner and we were going to then do some things that

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were coming back on when we came back somewhat at Hong an effigy hanging off of one of the buildings with a note

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that says niggers go home. Was the very first situation that I had. Was that well, that's horrible. Yeah, it was and it was interesting.

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And so as a person that's coming from a different culture, and I was technically considered at the time at University of Delaware

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as an international student. And I did that except I never, I never got invited to certain events that were targeted for African-Americans.

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And it was a conversation I had one day that I found out that I was listed as an international student because I was when I first started,

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I was and it never has shifted. So that was the very first experience I had. And then the next I had I was in a freshman honors class for English.

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I was the only African American in the and I think it was the first exam. The professor got up and he was talking about how we didn't really,

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we hadn't read prepared, et cetera, et cetera. And so someone asked a question in this awhile.

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The curve is going to be interesting because one person actually got a really good score on the test. And they were like, Oh, okay.

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So then they started asking and asking and he wouldn't say so at the time, I hadn't received our papers and then when you pass

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them out and I got the blue book back, it was me. I was sitting in the class and I said nothing.

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I just sat there and listened to them talk, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And that professor, and I don't remember his name was a nice guy.

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And I'll say that because I would meet so many that were not mine. And so finally, he said, If the person who had the highest score

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doesn't mind and I'll say who it is. I don't care. And you can see the shock on there that I, that I only

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African-American in-class, whatever. Let's see, I like it. And I loved British literature and I think it was

00:09:02.900 - 00:09:14.510

a British Lit class. What it is. So yeah, So those kind of experiences, I had some negative some positive and some in-between.

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Yeah. At some in-between. And so the other experience that my freshman year that stayed with me,

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I at the time I had the Assistant Dean of the College of Arts and Science as a professor in composition. So first, he sent me to the writing center.

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The very first paper I did, he sent me to the writing center for tutoring. So I got to

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the writing center with the paper. They signed me and they met me and they took the paper. They read it.

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Why did he send you? I said he's just said I needed to come. So they walk walk through the paper with me. They had a conversation

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with minIndex that, well, you don't need to be here. What you're doing. And so I said Okay. I said but at that time back in those days,

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if they sent you, You didn't just go one time. So you basically had to stay. So then I asked him to do a paper

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on individuals that we were not familiar with. So I opted to do a paper on Martin Luther King and

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Malcolm X. I didn't know if they weren't. I wasn't born and raised there. And so it was a comparison, contrast essay, the two characters.

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So I wrote the paper, proof, did whatever the people at the Writing Center, et cetera. And I turn the paper in and he gave me a C.

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Give me a C. And I asked him, I said Could you tell me specifically what I didn't do that and see his comment to me was,

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you people can write this well, so either you plagiarized it or write the papers, right? Yes.

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So I was like, okay. So I was going to complain, et cetera, et cetera. And Mr. Maurice, God rest his soul,

00:11:02.380 - 00:11:10.380

convinced me that it wasn't worth it. I let it go, that I knew I will do pay for et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, I had that professor.

00:11:10.380 - 00:11:20.980

I don't remember what I got in his class. But so that's my first year. Those experiences to this day, isn't that interesting? They still stand out.

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Yeah. It's almost like they were threatened by you doing so well. Yeah. Yeah.

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I'm not sure if it was threatened as much as they made some assumptions about that. Yeah.

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Yeah. And so since they didn't realize that I was I yes, I am an African American, but I'm also, I'm a West Indian.

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They knew the school systems and the West Indies, then they would have understood my writing because your friends, so you know,

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we have a levels, o levels because in Jamaica, if you don't get a certain level, you end up out of school.

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You know. And so it was interesting, yeah, but you live and learn, that's what experiences do for you. They either break you.

00:12:01.720 - 00:12:13.910

Are they making? Wow. Alright. So were there any barriers for you to go into UD such as financial?

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Yes, it was. Finances were were an issue. And the organization that I that I would Lloyd later join,

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we were we started the chapter at University of Delaware, which is the Alpha Kappa Alpha sorority, and we were the initial chapter

00:12:37.640 - 00:12:50.750

there on they gave me a scholarship. So I got a scholarship from them. And then I had work-study. I had work-study and I had

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a work-study with a lady doctor Gladys summons, African-American lady they hired are from, I think Oregon.

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Think she was from Oregon. I don't remember if it's been awhile. So I had a job with her work-study. So then I used to work at

00:13:07.670 - 00:13:25.730

the Chrysler plant on Monday and Friday nights from three to 11. And so that's what I did to go to school. What what was the reputation

00:13:25.730 - 00:13:45.740

of the school towards African-Americans? I'm not sure. What we all knew was that we were there, but we weren't invited.

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Included let me not say environment Walworth. We did not feel included. We felt like we were on the the periphery of what was going

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on in the sense that most of us were were living in Harrington quad. Okay. So when you went to

00:14:04.550 - 00:14:16.150

the dining hall and Arrington, most of the people who look like us. And so we were like We were not interspersed, are included, are welcome.

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That's a good word. We were there because I think they had to bring us. But we weren't welcome.

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You were a football player, you were? Because at the time when I went to school there, nate Beasley, African American,

00:14:31.410 - 00:14:46.820

was a quarterback for bursty Dalloway and Toby Raymond, Mr. Cote. So we were there, but it was not welcoming and it was

00:14:46.820 - 00:14:58.010

not it was not an atmosphere of inclusion. It really wasn't. They were African-American professors data because Dr. James Newton had

00:14:58.010 - 00:15:09.740

an African-American lady in studies and African woman studies, women studies. A woman's right, or I should say, that was there at the time.

00:15:09.740 - 00:15:20.230

So they were there and we were there. But we had to make our own space, which is how the, the the house, remember the house,

00:15:20.230 - 00:15:28.070

the Black Student Union started. Which is how all of that started, because we had to make a space for ourselves

00:15:28.070 - 00:15:40.860

to feel as if we belong. But it was not welcoming. I guess it just depended on who you were in contact with daily

00:15:40.860 - 00:15:47.760

and don't misunderstand. I had professors at the university at University of Delaware were really nice people.

00:15:47.760 - 00:15:52.280

There was a gentleman that I can't even remember his last name. His name was Alan. I remember Allen's name when

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I was when I got ready for my citizenship to become American citizens, he helped me. It was I think he was Jewish.

00:16:01.310 - 00:16:11.680

Me say to you everyone there that were white were bad. Can't say that Ms. Daphne is not his wife. I can't say that. I had

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professors that were white, but they weren't bad people. They were really nice people. So everyone was not that way,

00:16:18.180 - 00:16:27.950

but the culture was not welcoming to us. That way. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.

00:16:28.440 - 00:16:38.230

Were there any pressures for you being a college student? Pressures from who? The school, my friends,

00:16:38.230 - 00:16:52.600

what I guess like maybe well, I guess like the school will serve at the school. There was no pressure because I

00:16:52.600 - 00:17:02.980

don't want my personal opinion. I don't think they expected much of us. Some of us they did. Maybe, you know,

00:17:02.980 - 00:17:12.110

but I'm not sure they inspected much of us. I really don't feel that way. Yeah. So yeah.

00:17:12.180 - 00:17:22.990

Yeah. They didn't expect too much of us. But I will say this. One of the things that I loved that because I got in,

00:17:22.990 - 00:17:31.040

but at the time I got involved, they had a theater group at Mitchell Mr. Hall. And I assume Mitchell stills there.

00:17:31.040 - 00:17:41.820

And I will tell you that when the Black Student Union got together and we wanted to invite like, I don't know if you know who Richard Wilson.

00:17:41.820 - 00:17:53.590

Wilson. Sure. He was there when I was there because I remember we saw can't even think of the guy's name. Now, we saw quite a few African

00:17:53.590 - 00:18:02.920

American at that campus. So even though we did not, We weren't included. There were certain activities

00:18:02.920 - 00:18:11.900

that we want we try to do and we were able to do Gregory. That's what it was. Remember the Gregory and

00:18:11.900 - 00:18:21.220

some other people and I can't remember all the names off the top of my head. But we were able to do some of that cell. So it was like, how do I put it?

00:18:21.220 - 00:18:30.170

It's like living in a parallel universe. Okay. So were there were not included, but there's some things that we

00:18:30.170 - 00:18:42.450

are able to do. So it comes across as if we're Pardo when in reality we weren't activities that we did or things that we did.

00:18:42.550 - 00:18:53.720

Caucasian students didn't come to. Some of them did, but not all of them did. And I will say that my freshman year, there were a few Caucasian students in

00:18:53.720 - 00:19:02.960

my dorm that were really nice. And I still can't remember their name. People that were, you know, they didn't know who we weren't,

00:19:02.960 - 00:19:09.550

they didn't understand and they tried to understand where we're coming from. And then of course you had those that didn't care who he worded,

00:19:09.550 - 00:19:14.040

didn't want be narrows, didn't want speak to us. But that's life still that way in America today.

00:19:14.040 - 00:19:32.750

So what about like pressure from your parents? So I was raised. I knew I was going to

00:19:32.750 - 00:19:40.430

college From the time I was young. I had an older brother or a stepfather who had a PhD in engineering

00:19:40.430 - 00:19:52.340

from Howard University in DC? I knew I was going to school, yeah. And one of the non-negotiables in our home life was a C was not acceptable.

00:19:52.340 - 00:20:01.700

So great to see you going to have some issues. So education was important. My mother's a registered nurse.

00:20:01.700 - 00:20:12.710

And so yeah. So my mother's attitude was you have to choose to play on

00:20:12.710 - 00:20:19.460

people's play in graph playground. That doesn't matter who they think or what they think of you does not matter.

00:20:19.460 - 00:20:31.130

It's what you do for you that matters. And so my parents always taught us that even though people feel that they want to start a conversation or arguments with you.

00:20:31.130 - 00:20:38.730

And it was about everything was just about school, it was about getting in trouble. You have to choose to play on that ground.

00:20:38.730 - 00:20:45.980

So when they start, you can choose to walk away. You can choose to play, but understand whatever the consequences

00:20:45.980 - 00:20:54.330

that are going to happen. We will make sure the consequences that I knew that. So consequently,

00:20:54.610 - 00:21:06.190

schools serious, it wasn't a joke. And so my mom and my mother worked at Christiana hospital. She retired from there and she would tell

00:21:06.190 - 00:21:13.680

me over and over all of the stuff that happened to her there. And you have to make choices. And you have to choose

00:21:13.680 - 00:21:21.200

to do what you need to do for you. And don't bend to other people's opinions and feelings. Just do you make them a liar?

00:21:21.200 - 00:21:33.170

Don't you don't have to call him a liar. Just do what you need to do and prove them alive. So were there any like

00:21:33.170 - 00:21:45.990

a preparatory programs that you remember or any assistance for African-American students by the University of Delaware. I really don't know.

00:21:46.750 - 00:21:56.620

I think they had, I assume you mean like a remedial remediation programs or programs for tutoring, I assume. Yeah. Well, like the summer thing,

00:21:56.620 - 00:22:02.870

what I forgot the name of that upper bound. Yeah. Like sample. Yes. So yeah.

00:22:02.870 - 00:22:14.240

So that is the one thing I will say about University of Delaware. They had a premier Upward Bound program. I have been I've traveled

00:22:14.240 - 00:22:20.630

all over the world and I've lived in a number of different states. And I will say to you, talking to other people who came out

00:22:20.630 - 00:22:30.170

of other Upward Bound Program. We had a premier program. We really did that. They had that nail down. I'm not really sure if it's because of

00:22:30.170 - 00:22:40.580

Mr. William Morris or not because he ran the program. But it was down. So like so we did have access to materials.

00:22:40.580 - 00:22:48.300

We had access to people who look like us, who could help us. And so like if I was having was struggling with the class,

00:22:48.300 - 00:22:58.280

I couldn't I couldn't get myself my head above water. I could reach out to him and he would connect me with someone who's at

00:22:58.280 - 00:23:10.100

the University of someone who could help. And so in that sense, yes, they had a really good program. And they had a variety of

00:23:10.100 - 00:23:21.650

instructors and the upper bound program. We had a mixture of color, wasn't just all African Americans. And so that program was in

00:23:21.650 - 00:23:29.450

really good program that helped me because when my sister came behind me, I think what, four years later, 34 years later,

00:23:29.450 - 00:23:40.650

I made sure that those are the things that she got involved in. So so yes, so they did and then they had the engineering program.

00:23:41.060 - 00:23:45.960

Did they do that later? This is called flame and I'm trying to remember, did it start when we were there?

00:23:45.960 - 00:23:53.730

They had some things in place. And I think because of the fact that we did not feel welcomed and included,

00:23:53.730 - 00:24:03.320

I think that's one of the reasons why a lot of the sororities and fraternities started. I think that's why

00:24:03.320 - 00:24:10.670

the Black Student Union started. And I think that's how we had the Miss Black Student Union because we weren't included in any

00:24:10.670 - 00:24:17.040

of the homecoming activities, even though the quarterback was African-American guy? We were not included.

00:24:17.440 - 00:24:25.220

Yeah. Okay. What about with did you find that staff were

00:24:25.220 - 00:24:38.000

assistance to African-American students? Same thing. Some some were willing and some were not. So what tends to happen once you

00:24:38.000 - 00:24:47.720

find the ones that are willing, you pass that information onto people. You know, you know, this is who you meet with if

00:24:47.720 - 00:24:56.680

you want to have a conversation. This is who you do with. If things are not going anywhere and you need somehow.

00:24:56.680 - 00:25:06.780

But we tend to as a group, I think we tend to do that because when I went to Armstrong for my masters in Georgia, I did that.

00:25:06.780 - 00:25:13.520

And when I went for my doctorate and velar know I didn't have to do that. My dogs are below. They wanted me so I was

00:25:13.520 - 00:25:20.650

yeah, I was welcomed there. So that was a little bit different. Yeah. But everywhere? Yeah.

00:25:20.650 - 00:25:30.720

Yeah. Yeah. Did you ever see slash get involved in protests? Are any problems on campus?

00:25:34.420 - 00:25:49.410

I think I'm not. So by definition, a protest, you know, it's going against because of you're right.

00:25:49.410 - 00:26:03.570

Some some right that you should have. You don't have. I don't think we had any outward I think we protested,

00:26:03.570 - 00:26:15.980

but it wasn't overt. Okay. I think that's where you have the like. When we started the African American paper, started the African-American

00:26:15.980 - 00:26:25.200

Black Student Union when we started all of the pan hail, the Black Greek penthouse. The Alpha Kappa is when we started those.

00:26:25.200 - 00:26:38.100

I think those in and of themselves, I will consider a form of protests that we're not a part of your style. So we need to have our stuff

00:26:38.100 - 00:26:46.420

that'll meet our needs. Dr. James Newton, who started the Black Studies program at University of Delaware.

00:26:46.420 - 00:26:53.000

I took a course with him and I, and the very first test he gave us, I flunked the test. I,

00:26:53.000 - 00:26:58.250

along with all the Caucasians people in the class, along with that as well. I was born and raised in America,

00:26:58.250 - 00:27:06.380

so some things I didn't know. But he said something in my class that has never left me. He's told us one day and he told all of us.

00:27:06.380 - 00:27:13.270

And so we had African-American as well as Indian. We had a variety of people in this class is people like this.

00:27:13.270 - 00:27:20.060

And he was awesome instructor. And he said one day that we all as human beings, we all have some needs.

00:27:20.060 - 00:27:26.600

He said we all have a physical need. That means keep your body in shape, take care of yourself. We all have spiritual needs

00:27:26.600 - 00:27:36.220

and you have to find what your faith is and how do you tap into that fate to make you a whole person? Then he talked about, we have a socially,

00:27:36.220 - 00:27:44.040

we have a need to connect with people and to feel comfortable with people where we can take our mask off.

00:27:44.470 - 00:28:01.220

And to me, that's what the Black Student Union, the the Saudis in fraternities. That was our opportunity to take on mask off.

00:28:01.220 - 00:28:10.340

Because the function at, at a University of Delaware during the seventies because society you talking about 7576,

00:28:10.340 - 00:28:17.190

that that's that period to function at University of Delaware during that time, you had to learn how to wear the mask.

00:28:17.190 - 00:28:25.880

You had to learn how to what we call cold sweat, where you know how to I'm talking to you formerly had to have

00:28:25.880 - 00:28:33.650

a follow-up conversation with a professor. Say what you have to say. Versus when I'm with my friends, then I switch and switch

00:28:33.650 - 00:28:45.470

code and I'm speaking in a vernacular that familiar to them. And so that's literally what happened to us. We were there. We had to learn

00:28:45.470 - 00:28:54.040

how to wear those masks with the learn how to wear my glasses. We have to learn how to wear them. Going in and out of organizations on campus.

00:28:54.040 - 00:29:02.860

We have to go into the dining room. We had to learn how to wear them. And the only place that we could lay those masks down would be

00:29:02.860 - 00:29:15.350

could be and were when we then were able to join blackness Black Student Union, the National Panhellenic Council. We had the African-American paper.

00:29:15.350 - 00:29:23.280

That's those those were the opportunities we had to take those mask off. Okay. Yeah.

00:29:23.590 - 00:29:36.810

So on campus life, what did you think of dormitories? Harrington quad was the ultimate segregation to me.

00:29:37.540 - 00:29:53.570

They put us all in the same place. Uh-huh. Okay. And I remember when I couldn't even get housing and Rodney when my mom first when my mom

00:29:53.570 - 00:29:58.790

realized where we were living in what was happening. And after that effigy, the burning of the effigy and then the

00:29:58.790 - 00:30:04.970

comments that would make it would happen a lot. That was the first incident, but like if they got the partying and

00:30:04.970 - 00:30:12.200

hanging out and you can cross that quad, you'll hear all kinds of comments and all kinds of things we learned not to walk,

00:30:12.200 - 00:30:21.740

to go anywhere by ourselves late at night. We learn how to pair to go places. So it was almost it was very difficult to get into Rodney Rodney dorm.

00:30:21.740 - 00:30:27.380

Unlike when my sister finding out when my sister got to university that were that was our front door. Wasn't Rodney.

00:30:27.380 - 00:30:36.330

It was interesting. Then when I lived in pancake later. But it took some doing to be able to do that, to live in parents,

00:30:36.330 - 00:30:46.220

I lived in Christian, the Kristina towers because back in the day, those were the places. So it's Rodney than it was.

00:30:46.220 - 00:30:55.290

And then it was the towers. And so by the time I got to my senior year, I was living in the towers. And so things change and things evolve.

00:30:55.290 - 00:31:03.810

But initially, no. Initially we were all placed in the same area. Yeah. So were there ever like

00:31:03.810 - 00:31:10.370

white students that would come to your dorms or no. So there were white students in the dorms with that.

00:31:10.370 - 00:31:15.980

Okay. So the dorms weren't all black? Okay. Just all of us were in

00:31:15.980 - 00:31:19.610

Harrington because remember you have more than one parent? Yeah. Yeah.

00:31:19.610 - 00:31:25.570

Literally what happened? We were all That's where we all were. We were home. Whether it's a Harrington,

00:31:25.570 - 00:31:33.380

a Arrington, wherever we were all inheritance. There were a lot of whites there

00:31:33.380 - 00:31:42.930

because, I mean, we were only one. I don't even think we were 4%. We might've been one or 2%. And so you're talking about maybe

00:31:42.930 - 00:31:50.990

four hundred, six hundred of us. It I'm not even sure how many of us. I think that's probably what it was before, just six.

00:31:50.990 - 00:32:02.190

So we were we were still the minority. We could go to the dining hall and see more people that look like yeah, most of us were over in that area.

00:32:02.430 - 00:32:12.460

Because I had where I was in my dorm, my first floor. Majority of the students on that floor, white.

00:32:12.460 - 00:32:20.680

Back in the day then you have all females. We were all females. And so I think on the floor they might've been six of

00:32:20.680 - 00:32:29.050

us that were African American and there was me was Spanish. That's only part I can't even remember. But it wasn't a lot of us.

00:32:29.050 - 00:32:37.250

Wasn't a lot of us. So we were there at University of Delaware, but we were basically in the same year. We were all yeah, that's more inherent.

00:32:37.250 - 00:32:46.430

Most of us were narrative. You had a few of us in other places like the, like the football players, you know, those people.

00:32:46.430 - 00:32:57.090

Those, I shouldn't say those people but the players. Sports because sports was big. Listen.

00:32:57.090 - 00:33:04.360

I remember listening, listening when I lived in Texas, the place that I could literally compared to the University of Delaware,

00:33:04.360 - 00:33:15.010

because football is king in texas. Listened. And that's the way I felt. The University of Delaware, if you played football, you are special.

00:33:15.010 - 00:33:24.730

Anybody else? Boards now? Basketball got pretty, you know, got better as time went on. But when we start at University of Delaware

00:33:24.730 - 00:33:32.070

sports with it and Toby Raymond was different for us because he had an eight Beasley African American.

00:33:32.070 - 00:33:43.870

I think Nate was number 36 was the 36. As a quarterback. And that yeah. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:33:43.870 - 00:33:50.480

Yeah. And did did Greek life affect that at all? So like did it bring more African Americans together

00:33:50.480 - 00:33:58.920

or yes, it did. So I don't know how much you know about African-American history when it comes to sororities and fraternities.

00:33:58.920 - 00:34:10.100

So we have a core group. Most of us started at Howard University. Most of our organization we saw. So Alpha Kappa Alpha is where

00:34:10.100 - 00:34:20.520

the first female organizations, Greek, Greek authority. So what then happened is we literally then formed what we call the Panhandle.

00:34:20.520 - 00:34:31.990

Okay. So you had initially it was the switches, aka Alpha Kappa Alpha. You add the amigos que sci-fi.

00:34:31.990 - 00:34:39.520

I think they were maybe the first group nail grooves, I'm not mistaken. And then you have the Kappa's and then you had the delta.

00:34:39.520 - 00:34:48.140

So we were there, the two female and so we came together. And so that's another one of those protests that we

00:34:48.140 - 00:34:56.900

talked we talked about that's not an overt protests. But yeah, so we started patterning our, our, our lives and our roles

00:34:56.900 - 00:35:06.320

similar to the way the students who started the first National Black Greek organizations did. As a way to have people that look like you,

00:35:06.320 - 00:35:19.460

that you could connect with, talk with the width? Yes. So that was yeah, we did. That was what was dating like on

00:35:19.460 - 00:35:33.140

campus but would you say was interesting? It was interesting. It was interesting. It really was.

00:35:33.140 - 00:35:45.920

I did. I don't know. I think I had I had I remember dating a guy Caucasian got in my I met him in my African Studies and

00:35:45.920 - 00:35:55.400

Black American Studies class. It didn't last long. Different, you know what I'm saying? And my parents my parents

00:35:55.400 - 00:36:04.710

wouldn't have my parents didn't care. But, you know, and I didn't do a lot of dating because that was not what I went to school to do.

00:36:05.030 - 00:36:14.660

So yeah. So yeah. And so we tend to probably be data among ourselves and then some of us, they dated the people that we were

00:36:14.660 - 00:36:23.810

dating before we got to the University of Delaware, who might be around. But it wasn't a lot of choices.

00:36:23.810 - 00:36:33.790

You're asking me. There wasn't a lot of cases. Yeah, it did people ever like comment on it being

00:36:33.790 - 00:36:42.040

an interracial relationship or anything like that? First of all, it didn't last that long. And second of all, I'm

00:36:42.040 - 00:36:50.920

very good at telling you the Manion business. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. I know business because I

00:36:50.920 - 00:37:00.160

see here's the thing. I was not raised that way. And maybe that was my blind spot. But I was born and raised in Jamaica.

00:37:00.160 - 00:37:10.240

And because my family is mixed. Okay. I have so because you make his motto was out of many one people. Okay.

00:37:10.240 - 00:37:21.570

I have people in my family that are on so light here, so straight bands. And I have people in my family who are east Indians.

00:37:21.570 - 00:37:32.880

So that wasn't the issue. It with my with my parents and my mom more so in my stepfather. And it didn't last long.

00:37:32.880 - 00:37:39.700

It was and it wasn't because he was whatever it was, someone that was really nice. We got along really well in class and we

00:37:39.700 - 00:37:48.910

decided to do the movies together, whatever. But then I have an actual boyfriend at University of Delaware. The four years I was there last year I did,

00:37:48.910 - 00:37:54.850

but he was not from there. It wasn't it wasn't from there. My actually, when I actually started having them,

00:37:54.850 - 00:38:03.330

boyfriend probably was mice, I think, close to my junior year and he was a guy that lived it from he was an engineer.

00:38:03.330 - 00:38:10.690

He had already graduated from college. And yeah. And it was okay. Because they can anybody on campus,

00:38:10.690 - 00:38:16.930

they don't have money. So what do you feel like you can't do much of anything? That's very interesting.

00:38:16.930 - 00:38:23.440

Just like makers like motto and everything. Just because I feel like it, it goes so perfectly with what we're

00:38:23.440 - 00:38:31.430

speaking about and everything. Yeah. How was work like on campus for African-Americans?

00:38:32.280 - 00:38:46.770

So you have a variety of people. So, you know, just like the regular society, regular society. So it's a microcosm

00:38:46.770 - 00:38:54.850

of you have African Americans, University, Laura, whose parents had money, so they didn't have to work. So you have that.

00:38:54.850 - 00:38:59.290

You had people like the football players or the basketball players who weren't

00:38:59.290 - 00:39:08.930

full scholarship because they were good at that they played. Then you have people like me who are coming from a background where we need it to work.

00:39:08.930 - 00:39:19.620

And so there was work-study. So we did have we did we did have work-study opportunities. They offered opportunities like

00:39:19.620 - 00:39:27.600

you make a tutor if we were getting some subject and you want a tutor, we could. And then and then,

00:39:27.600 - 00:39:34.220

you know, when I'm trying to think of the place where you go, when you can get your resume written. You could go ahead.

00:39:34.220 - 00:39:38.930

I know the name of it. I can't think of it where you could go and they would suggest places you could work.

00:39:38.930 - 00:39:48.970

So they would have so you can go in and look at where jobs are available. Now. Then then came the issue. Because of your race.

00:39:48.970 - 00:39:58.780

You might not get whatever those jobs certain jobs were. And I started working at Chrysler on Monday nights and Friday nights

00:39:58.780 - 00:40:08.770

because of another student who had gone there and we got into a conversation and I wanted to make money. And so I think I did that for

00:40:08.770 - 00:40:18.960

probably 18 months until my courses got really hard and I couldn't do it anymore and it got really sick. So what happened is so

00:40:18.960 - 00:40:27.360

then you could work then at Chrysler. So it's just like regular site society. Some places you can find off someplace that you can,

00:40:27.360 - 00:40:32.960

some places you apply. But because of the color of your skin and I don't care what anybody said that still happens today

00:40:32.960 - 00:40:42.450

because of your color of your skin. You're not acceptable. So you may look good on paper. But then you are surprised

00:40:42.450 - 00:40:53.980

when people meet you. Like I got hired while I lived in Germany, I got hired on the job and when I got to Texas and I thought that they knew,

00:40:53.980 - 00:41:04.390

I'm not sure how I thought they would know that I was African-American, but you could tell. It was like, well, that's life happens.

00:41:04.390 - 00:41:13.660

And so there were opportunities? Yes. You have to move more than nine times out of ten, you had to connect with people that

00:41:13.660 - 00:41:18.700

look like you to find certain opportunities because some of the times the opportunities that were available,

00:41:18.700 - 00:41:29.550

they didn't want you because you were black. That was the reason. That's actually the second story I heard where someone got a job over

00:41:29.550 - 00:41:35.270

the phone or applied over the phone and then they went in in person and it was such a different reaction. Yeah.

00:41:35.270 - 00:41:42.120

That's so surprising to me because it's like I feel like if someone did that, they would realize like, oh,

00:41:42.120 - 00:41:47.970

I'm I'm being racist, like I'm doing this wrong. Like it's surprising to me that then they would they would still

00:41:47.970 - 00:41:56.150

stick by their beliefs by treating you differently even after they didn't realize in the first place. Because you know what? No, Chris,

00:41:56.150 - 00:42:05.800

one of the things that occur and because I was so I trained teachers, that's what I do now. Women to university. And I am co-chair for

00:42:05.800 - 00:42:13.720

the alternative route that teacher certification program in special ed. So most of the people I work with are becoming teachers and special.

00:42:13.720 - 00:42:23.340

90 something percent of our candidates are white females. You have very few African-American males, very few African American females.

00:42:23.340 - 00:42:32.090

In Asians, Hispanic. Would you have bought alarms is predominantly. Here's what I've learned.

00:42:32.310 - 00:42:44.650

And it's about hidden bias. We all have them. And I think until they are brought to light, sometimes people don't even

00:42:44.650 - 00:42:52.070

realize that they have them. Yeah, sands. And it's not just because of somebody's color,

00:42:52.070 - 00:43:00.120

which does exist a lot, but for other reasons, like I remember going to ETS, I was doing I was on on the standard

00:43:00.120 - 00:43:05.920

setting study they were doing and I got invited there. And one of the thing they gave us was a bias tests.

00:43:05.920 - 00:43:14.640

And it was interesting for me to realize I have a bias when it comes to writing. Like you don't write in full sentences,

00:43:14.640 - 00:43:22.110

you leave out verbs, grammar. Those are issues for me. I would consider that a bias. I will just talk but

00:43:22.110 - 00:43:29.380

thought through that whole piece with them, that whole training on bias, which then lead to other things. You realize that you have.

00:43:29.380 - 00:43:39.940

Hidden feelings and perceptions that occur through your childhood. And you may be fine and you may not see it as racism or a human.

00:43:39.940 - 00:43:47.230

I'd see this prejudice, but in reality, it is. Somebody brings that to light. You may be totally unaware.

00:43:47.230 - 00:43:54.650

And then some people they know they are and they don't care. That doesn't that make sense? Yeah. Yeah.

00:43:54.650 - 00:44:02.350

Yeah. They know they are and they really don't care at all. And we even have elite attitudes

00:44:02.350 - 00:44:16.190

of elitism were better than other people. So it occurs everywhere. Well, that's just surprising to me. I guess.

00:44:17.100 - 00:44:26.540

So. Experienced. Did you ever have any more experienced harassment or discrimination by white students?

00:44:30.180 - 00:44:43.960

The incident inside we discussed? Yes. And then one of the things that you you you are able to understand is a lot of time when we were

00:44:43.960 - 00:44:53.730

together as African American. You can see that the attitudes or you could see the change or when we go to the football game.

00:44:53.730 - 00:45:01.900

They didn't want to sit my silence. Or you'd hear comments like, Well, they're too loud. Not we were having fun,

00:45:01.900 - 00:45:11.760

but it was just to me, those are are are cue words. Sometimes what people use it. What's the assumption?

00:45:11.760 - 00:45:24.770

Well, you're black, you're allowed. Blackwell don't want to behave. The African-Americans. And so because of those belief systems,

00:45:24.770 - 00:45:30.820

when you do certain things, they hacked away or late at night when we go to the movies and you're coming out of

00:45:30.820 - 00:45:42.640

the movies and you would see them cluster or try to because as that, if I were going to do something, so it was there the the most severe would

00:45:42.640 - 00:45:51.250

be the effigy in Harrington quantity that will be the most. And then when I first lived in a Christiana towers,

00:45:51.250 - 00:46:00.940

I had an incident one night where I had to provide my ID to the I forgot who it was because he didn't believe I lived there.

00:46:00.940 - 00:46:11.040

So I think the best place at University of Delaware that I enjoyed living was pancake batter because Penn Cato was open.

00:46:11.040 - 00:46:20.730

So wherever you stayed, you know, as long as you had your key, you can because the way they were there, I don't know if they're still there.

00:46:20.730 - 00:46:28.790

You can just walk up. So there was not like a building to go into. Was that way. Rodney was that way.

00:46:28.790 - 00:46:38.890

I'm Christina Christina Christina towers was that way. You know what I'm saying? Had a central someone to get in. So to me, the best living space

00:46:38.890 - 00:46:51.140

for me was maintainer. And I could not eat at the pancake or dining. All I could get with the Rodney, I could go to Harrington.

00:46:51.140 - 00:46:59.440

But then what happens is you make plans with friends to go. Very rarely just went to the dining hall by yourself.

00:46:59.440 - 00:47:05.830

And for all those years that was University of Delaware. I didn't That's one of the things I did not did not go especially late

00:47:05.830 - 00:47:12.490

at night and never myself because that's when people tend to they can throw the stone and hide their hand.

00:47:12.490 - 00:47:21.070

Yeah. So yeah. Were you ever discouraged from pursuing your major or

00:47:21.070 - 00:47:28.990

another major duty being African-American? No. No. No. I understand I

00:47:28.990 - 00:47:38.020

understood that that was an anomaly. And I still am to this day. Yeah. Because I Yeah, I am African-American person who people

00:47:38.020 - 00:47:46.510

claim I'm an anomaly. I don't think I am. Who loved British? Let you know what I'm saying. And I worked with a professor

00:47:46.510 - 00:47:54.390

at Wilmington University. She just got her doctorate at University of Delaware because I came for her dissertation presentation.

00:47:54.390 - 00:48:01.660

We talked a lot about that she went to an African-American school for undergrad degree and I went to University of Delaware.

00:48:01.660 - 00:48:08.830

So when we start talking about black literature, or we talk about literature African, I can have a good conversation with her.

00:48:08.830 - 00:48:16.990

And Kate. Understand when we talk about what it means to be different people that you

00:48:16.990 - 00:48:25.920

don't look like, you know. So yeah, we have good conversations. We have a lot of fun together. And the one good thing I will

00:48:25.920 - 00:48:35.820

say at a University of Delaware, University of Delaware prepared me for my next steps for colleges. Because when I went to

00:48:35.820 - 00:48:47.000

Armstrong Atlantic University in Savannah, Georgia, I think I was one of two African-Americans in the program to get a master's in education.

00:48:47.000 - 00:48:54.670

And then when I got to Baylor, I was the only African American in my cohort for my degree in curriculum and instruction.

00:48:54.670 - 00:49:04.130

Because of University of Delaware, I've gone through all those experiences, good and bad. And so I know how to be comfortable.

00:49:04.130 - 00:49:14.890

I don't have to like, don't misunderstand. I don't have to like what's going on. I know how to live, do what I need to do.

00:49:14.890 - 00:49:25.270

And University of Delaware, I got very good at wearing the mask. And what I always say because I remember when my niece was getting ready to go

00:49:25.270 - 00:49:33.780

University of Delaware, which she did. She has a PhD now from Temple University and University of Delaware. And we talk about that.

00:49:33.780 - 00:49:41.080

One of the things, even my, my, my my tooth my sons who went to school, you got to pay them back. It's called the black tax.

00:49:41.080 - 00:49:51.830

You're never good enough, never smart enough. You have to do more than they have to do. You have to be better than they have just to get paid less than they do.

00:49:51.830 - 00:50:04.130

And that's reality. So were you ever like around the town in general, like on Main Street?

00:50:05.250 - 00:50:20.740

There were some places you you knew not to go too. Do you remember any of these places? Are. Okay.

00:50:20.740 - 00:50:29.530

So one of the places that I think I used to spend some time when I used to spend time on Cleveland Avenue. And that's because I'm not sure how much does

00:50:29.530 - 00:50:37.180

the African-American church right there? I don't know if it's still there used to be African-American church there. So we could go there on Sunday mornings.

00:50:37.180 - 00:50:43.170

And then Richard Wilson or we call them Becky Wilson. He lived in that area. So that was okay.

00:50:43.170 - 00:50:53.800

But when you got back into it, Mitchell I'm trying to think. Is it Mitchell all I'm thinking. You know, when you come into

00:50:53.800 - 00:51:01.720

University of Delaware and you come down the main strip where the Financial Aid Office is, the library on the other side.

00:51:01.720 - 00:51:07.060

And I'm trying to remember that back in that area, you know, not to go over in there. Okay.

00:51:07.060 - 00:51:14.650

You knew that the goals of Macedonia, and you have to be careful of the new art police because they didn't need

00:51:14.650 - 00:51:23.110

they didn't need an excuse to stop us. And they didn't need an excuse to have conversations over stupid stuff with it. Did you ever have

00:51:23.110 - 00:51:32.480

any experiences with the police? No. I didn't know because I walked most places are caught the bus?

00:51:33.660 - 00:51:42.260

No. Because most of the time, that's basically yeah, I didn't have a vehicle and I didn't know.

00:51:42.260 - 00:51:52.420

So even I had my boyfriend had an issue when one time he because he was an engineer and he came out in

00:51:52.420 - 00:52:02.140

New York and he was driving a bands. And I remember him getting stopped one night. But I'd warn you about coming back late at night,

00:52:02.140 - 00:52:14.480

but anyway, But yeah. But I personally just an example. Have you ever like Had you ever gotten a deer park or,

00:52:14.480 - 00:52:25.420

you know anything about Deer Park? I went to a park. What year is this? This is 2021. I went to

00:52:25.420 - 00:52:42.370

depart the first time I went to their park. I think it was I think it was a senior because, you know, not to go there. Not our place.

00:52:42.370 - 00:52:49.340

Not to go there. So I think my first time that I actually went there, I think I was probably a senior.

00:52:49.340 - 00:52:57.820

And the next time I went there, it was probably in the 19 because I had just moved back from Germany because I was teaching

00:52:57.820 - 00:53:05.440

in Department of Defense dependence schools in Germany. I had just stayed size. So that was what 19921993.

00:53:05.440 - 00:53:14.040

And I had to meet someone and that's where they took they took me to eat at University of Delaware. I had come back because

00:53:14.040 - 00:53:23.920

I was getting ready to prepare and prep to start my doctorate program. And I was trying to take a stat class. And I took a stat class that year.

00:53:23.920 - 00:53:31.210

And that's where I met with the person that I had to meet to type a comma and that was the first time that I actually since that night from

00:53:31.210 - 00:53:40.610

my my senior year that I actually was in the middle of the day. I still didn't feel comfortable. It was like, oh,

00:53:40.610 - 00:53:49.740

when I went here, I could even go here. Yeah. Nobody said you couldn't go. It's one of those hidden things.

00:53:49.740 - 00:53:59.980

You know, that culture that's hidden, those expectations that you're supposed to understand? Because it was Yeah. I didn't go there.

00:53:59.980 - 00:54:07.620

I did not go. No. Yeah. I heard a lot of stories about that. Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. That's another place you

00:54:07.620 - 00:54:13.620

don't want to walk pass late at night when they've been drinking and oh, yeah. Because then the real people

00:54:13.620 - 00:54:20.340

come out or what? The real people always there. The liquor allows them to cop more a lot more freely?

00:54:20.340 - 00:54:25.810

Yes. Show themselves. Yeah. That's a good point. They're able to show themselves.

00:54:26.720 - 00:54:36.150

Did you ever have any favorite classes that you remember? The University. I can not remember this professor.

00:54:36.150 - 00:54:46.100

My favorite class was a class in international law. And the other class, it was was it five?

00:54:46.100 - 00:54:53.380

Political Science? I can't remember. It was a course where the professor was friends with Joe Biden, who's in our president.

00:54:53.380 - 00:55:06.170

And he would visit our class. Yes, they were really good friends. So my political science courses, I think we're the best at UD.

00:55:06.170 - 00:55:17.260

Majority of those professors were, I don't want to say there were liberal, but they weren't as negatives. They weren't as negative like some of

00:55:17.260 - 00:55:25.710

the language in the English department. Like some of those people in the department, they weren't like some of those people because those people really add some issues.

00:55:25.710 - 00:55:32.400

A lot of those professors in English department had issues. And they didn't have African American professor net department

00:55:32.400 - 00:55:39.280

in an English department. But the Political Science Department. And maybe because they have to learn how to work with

00:55:39.280 - 00:55:47.570

different people from whatever, even if you feel that way, those feelings don't become, it's not so easily see, Mei,

00:55:47.570 - 00:55:57.520

Mei, Mei, Mei, Mei, Mei. I say that I enjoy, I enjoy the political science courses. I love the, the,

00:55:57.520 - 00:56:08.020

the lid course and I can't remember like DH Lawrence because I took American story i2. Yeah, But I loved. So those are the courses I loved.

00:56:08.020 - 00:56:14.800

I loved the lid courses, composition, you know, you well, I already told you my story. If I didn't have to take another,

00:56:14.800 - 00:56:22.760

I wasn't going to take one. And political science. I really enjoyed those courses. I really did.

00:56:24.330 - 00:56:31.010

And I know you're already spoke about Dr. James Newton, but do you have any other experiences about that?

00:56:31.010 - 00:56:39.760

No. I took because I did not know African-American history. I think it's a two I think I took two courses with him,

00:56:39.760 - 00:56:53.920

but even though I did, but then every time he had an activity or something on campus, I would go because I learned a lot from him.

00:56:53.920 - 00:57:02.960

Let me say that when I came, if you asked me about Jamaican history, I can tell you who Marcus Garvey is even though he shows up in America?

00:57:02.960 - 00:57:09.470

I can tell you who Michael Manley is. I can tell you who was the Manti is, those are national heroes into me. I can tell you those people

00:57:09.470 - 00:57:21.450

are coming to America in 1972. I did not know African American history. I came from a country, we had a television,

00:57:21.450 - 00:57:29.850

but we were a third world nation. We were not well-developed nation like America was. We had a television,

00:57:29.850 - 00:57:38.650

but my parents had real issues, so not negatively, let me not say that incorrectly. The only time we watch television in

00:57:38.650 - 00:57:45.600

my house was on Saturday morning. And you watched it for about three hours and that was it for the week? Yeah. Okay.

00:57:45.600 - 00:57:52.950

That was not something you are going to watch night afternoon. So I did not know these people. Okay. I know more about the Queen.

00:57:52.950 - 00:58:00.530

I could tell you about Haile Selassie, the Emperor of Ethiopia. I could tell you those things, but I didn't. And so one of the things

00:58:00.530 - 00:58:08.610

I learned a lot from, like, I learned about Kwanza, I didn't know even though, right at the time,

00:58:08.610 - 00:58:15.940

like promote job, you load a lot of the African and terminology that I didn't know.

00:58:15.940 - 00:58:22.040

The first time I learned about Martin Luther King and Malcolm X was from books, from researching and reading.

00:58:22.040 - 00:58:33.670

And so I did, I started learning from him. I learned I learned a lot psychologically. He was good. I think for me specifically,

00:58:33.670 - 00:58:42.900

I don't know about other people because once we once he provided that information about the whole person,

00:58:42.900 - 00:58:52.300

you have to find time to be be among people that look like you sound like you think like you. You need that to build your strength,

00:58:52.300 - 00:58:59.600

to build your resilience, the bill who you are. So I learned a lot from him and I think he did a lot for us.

00:58:59.600 - 00:59:05.960

I know there was a young lady. I don t think the game is on the market anymore. She created a game called Super Bowl.

00:59:05.960 - 00:59:13.200

And I don't remember what the definition means anymore. She created the University of Delaware and we used to play it.

00:59:13.200 - 00:59:21.640

We learn that's where I learned that every time I put a pair of shoes on, I get to thank a black man because I wasn't wasn't matched linger,

00:59:21.640 - 00:59:30.310

I think his name is. That's where I learned about Charles Drew. That's where I learned about that every time I go to Washington DC,

00:59:30.310 - 00:59:38.160

I need to remember that even though the Frenchman design DC was an African American guy who remembered all the details to build what?

00:59:38.160 - 00:59:45.860

I learned, all of that. Carter G. Woodson, I learned about every time I go in front of a stop light.

00:59:47.130 - 00:59:56.160

And that's one of the things I think is missing to younger generations. We don't do that much as much as we used back in the day.

00:59:56.160 - 01:00:02.950

Oh, yeah. He made sure we knew all of that. When you get to get rid of pickup for iron iron your clothes. I knew what it meant when it

01:00:02.950 - 01:00:14.560

says the real McCoy. I learnt so much. From him. And to this day, I still have, you know, I used to have a real,

01:00:14.560 - 01:00:22.100

I used to buy the books and by insect. And that's one of the reasons when I got an invitation when the African-American Museum in

01:00:22.100 - 01:00:32.730

DC was going to open a charter member. I became a charter member because I understood I important that history has taught

01:00:32.730 - 01:00:43.420

us as African Americans in America. We, we didn't, we may have come here in and boats in prisons, enslaved. Let me not say boats.

01:00:43.420 - 01:00:49.720

We came here and shifts in the bottom of the bottom with feces, whatever, all the negative things that happened,

01:00:49.720 - 01:00:55.780

we came here that way. Our bodies were found at our minds never were. Okay.

01:00:55.780 - 01:01:06.610

And there's a lot of things that we did that we did not get credit for. A lot of a lot of the things that we did, even though African American

01:01:06.610 - 01:01:15.790

guy that went to the North Pole. You know what I'm saying? So that's the, that's the thing that I think I think for

01:01:15.790 - 01:01:24.790

the most is that history is that he provided that groundwork. He lay that groundwork for me to to read, for me to study,

01:01:24.790 - 01:01:36.820

and for me to learn what it means to be African student with an African history. Not necessarily we said an African American, but with the African history because

01:01:36.820 - 01:01:45.080

people in Jamaica came from Africa. And we have what we call the camera rooms in Jamaica who, when the ships docked

01:01:45.080 - 01:01:51.760

to the sugar plantation, they broke away and they got up in the mountains of Jamaica. And whenever you drink Blue Mountain coffee

01:01:51.760 - 01:01:58.390

there one of the groups of people that's known for that, you know what I'm saying? So he laid that groundwork, he really did.

01:01:58.390 - 01:02:05.150

And then I'll learn black vernacular, like I didn't know what to do. So in a quarter is it was a car, an electric 225.

01:02:05.150 - 01:02:16.210

I learned a lot about Dorothy Dan and rage, one of the first African American woman in theater. I learned when I tell you a lot,

01:02:16.210 - 01:02:25.340

I learned a lot from Dr. Newton. Yeah. He was the best. He did. He knew who he was as a man and he knew we were as a people.

01:02:25.340 - 01:02:35.500

And he set out to not just teach African American students, but to teach students about history. All history. Not just some history.

01:02:35.500 - 01:02:43.690

Yeah. Yeah, I asked because we actually conducted an interview like this. Are our professor interviewed

01:02:43.690 - 01:02:49.960

Dr. James Newton in our classes like an example. Yeah. Now very interesting is such a smart guy.

01:02:49.960 - 01:02:57.690

He was yes. Listen, yeah, and he's something else too. Yeah. Yeah. Alright.

01:02:57.690 - 01:03:05.060

So now we're getting towards the closing. What career did you follow after after graduating you do? So?

01:03:05.060 - 01:03:15.290

I graduated with a degree in English. I have a Bachelors of Arts in English. And my plan I want it to be a lawyer. That never happened.

01:03:15.290 - 01:03:24.780

And when I started university, I started actually as education as a special education major, believe it or not. Then the first semester that they sent us

01:03:24.780 - 01:03:35.790

to a deaf school for the deaf, let me say it the correct way. In new arc. And I spent, I think what they call clinical hours.

01:03:35.790 - 01:03:41.800

And that changed my mind students, but in my face and I realized that I was not at the age with the temperament to be

01:03:41.800 - 01:03:50.420

a special education teacher, believe it or not. And so that's how I started. I got married and we move to Hawaii.

01:03:50.420 - 01:03:58.660

And in Hawaii. That did I prejudice again, if you were not a Nash, if you were not a Native Hawaiian,

01:03:58.660 - 01:04:07.000

you could not teach in Hawaii schools in Hawaii. So then I started working for the government. I worked for the Department of the Air

01:04:07.000 - 01:04:17.020

Force for a couple of years. And then when we moved from a why we went to I think we went back to Georgia. I think we went from Hawaii to Georgia.

01:04:17.020 - 01:04:23.330

And that's when I took I went back into teaching. That's when I got my master's in middle school education.

01:04:23.330 - 01:04:32.170

And at the time I did that, I was working for the Department of the Army. I was a supervisor for them. And then so then I went back into

01:04:32.170 - 01:04:43.860

teaching in the eighties. And I have been teaching since I've worked. I've been gifted ed teacher. I've been middle-school,

01:04:43.860 - 01:04:53.500

and then I have been at the district level. I've worked with advanced placement, train teachers on taking advanced placement course that

01:04:53.500 - 01:05:01.430

got a lot of training in teaching reading, you know, how to teach reading English, et cetera, et cetera. And so, yeah,

01:05:01.430 - 01:05:10.740

I got in Germany for a couple of years. That was a beautiful experience. And so that's what I do. And so now I am

01:05:10.740 - 01:05:21.360

Associate Professor here at Wilmington University. Okay. So how would you say your education

01:05:21.360 - 01:05:38.140

influenced your career? I think back to that, to Dr. Newton again. Even though I wanted,

01:05:38.140 - 01:05:46.020

I started as education major change my mind. I thought about going to law school. One of the things that I learned from Dr. Newton that I have not

01:05:46.020 - 01:05:57.510

forgotten is the idea of paying it forward. I think that there's actually a movie or around that name. But the idea that we owe it to

01:05:57.510 - 01:06:09.780

each other to help each other. There is, I can't think of the name of the book right now, but I heard an author discuss,

01:06:09.780 - 01:06:15.270

I think it was a Pennsylvania woman's conference and she talked about the fact that everyone will not

01:06:15.270 - 01:06:24.510

have a seat at the table. So if you have a seat at the table, it's critical that you speak for those people who

01:06:24.510 - 01:06:32.820

cannot have a seat at the table. And that you can have a seat at the table and then disregard people. Your background from where you came from,

01:06:32.820 - 01:06:39.810

the people that look like you who may not have a seat at the table. I think that's the one thing I think stayed with me about Dr.

01:06:39.810 - 01:06:46.410

Newton is that his willingness because I'm sure he could have been could have written books, he could have gone other

01:06:46.410 - 01:06:56.390

places and done other things. But he was willing to train and teach us about who we were as a group and

01:06:56.390 - 01:07:08.430

the critical need for us to help people that look like us. And so yeah, I still volunteer a lot. I still do volunteer things.

01:07:08.430 - 01:07:17.770

I if I have an opportunity, like Washington University has a scholarship program. I do that because

01:07:17.770 - 01:07:26.220

a lot of the scholarships are to the children or students that are in Inner City of Wilmington. So I still do those things in my church,

01:07:26.220 - 01:07:33.410

does some activities for people, like for Christmas. We're gonna be working with the children whose parents are

01:07:33.410 - 01:07:45.200

incarcerated to provide Christmas for them. So I still do those things. And I think that's the one thing. My education at University of Delaware,

01:07:45.200 - 01:07:54.120

delaware experiences positive and negative. University of Delaware. I know in my heart of hearts that I can't walk away

01:07:54.120 - 01:07:59.840

and say I got mine and it's up to the rest of you to get your own. I can't do that.

01:07:59.840 - 01:08:10.750

I still have to remember that someone extended a hand to me and someone stood in my corner. Someone helped me to be Dr. Heinz

01:08:10.750 - 01:08:21.980

today because I'm not sure that I would be if it hadn't been for the people. That includes my mom and my family. But Doctor Doctor Newton,

01:08:22.050 - 01:08:36.070

Mr. Maurice, dr. Gladys Simpson. I can't even think of Alan's name. His name is Alan numbers, last name. Ms. Benton.

01:08:36.070 - 01:08:44.980

Who started this whole program? Started this train. My when I started school in PS connected me to University of Delaware

01:08:44.980 - 01:08:52.250

and the upper bound. And of course, I can never forget all the things that I received through upper bound.

01:08:53.790 - 01:09:05.190

And the final question, would you say that it was worth it going to the University of Delaware? Yes, it was. If you look at the

01:09:05.190 - 01:09:15.180

if you look at the totality of everything that happened, yes, it was yes, it was I was young.

01:09:15.180 - 01:09:25.240

I want to say dumb. Young and inexperienced. And the experiences that at, at University of Delaware

01:09:25.240 - 01:09:32.320

helped to make me who I am today. The negative as well as the positive one. And more than likely, probably the negative more

01:09:32.320 - 01:09:38.680

so than the positive because a negative are the ones that made me stand up, put my backup and say,

01:09:38.680 - 01:09:44.410

I'm not giving it to you. You're not going to make me move, you're not going to make me run. You're not going to make me go back

01:09:44.410 - 01:09:53.950

home and you're not gonna make me quit. And so I still I think, but overall, yes. And like I said, there were good things that happened

01:09:53.950 - 01:10:01.840

at University of Delaware. There was, you know, whether that's did Gregory. We saw one of the premier

01:10:01.840 - 01:10:11.730

or African American female writers at the University of Delaware. I don't know if he did Joffrey older, he was on Broadway.

01:10:11.730 - 01:10:22.510

I saw him that aim at University of Delaware. I met yeah, we met big name people at university, lawyer. They paid the money for those people to come.

01:10:22.510 - 01:10:29.520

In one hand. There was some negative things. Yes. A lot of negative thing, but there are other hand, they did some things for

01:10:29.520 - 01:10:37.970

us because they could have not done some things. They allowed us to have the building for the Black Student Union.

01:10:37.970 - 01:10:48.960

We had our own paper, they allow that. Then we had the Black Student Union. They have the regular homecoming, and then they allowed us. So we have that.

01:10:48.960 - 01:11:02.140

And I know that my when by the time I left University of Delaware, we had a sorority house. We have authority house.

01:11:02.140 - 01:11:10.590

Yeah, African-American group. We had a sore anyhow. And so yeah, there were some negative. But by enlarge,

01:11:10.590 - 01:11:23.860

your experiences either make or break you. One of my favorite author, Clement. And he says, I am human and no one that

01:11:23.860 - 01:11:35.510

is human diminish diminishes me. And so yeah. All right. Okay. Well, I'm going to conclude it now.

01:11:35.510 - 01:11:44.270

Do you have any last things to say or no, Chris, thanks with experience and I enjoy talking with you. Thank you too.