00:00:01.790 - 00:00:10.970

Okay, We're recording now. Okay. So we'll let my starting off this feel free to just, you know,

00:00:10.970 - 00:00:20.070

talk about every But we just wanted to have a little background on you first-person upbringing where you're from. Very good.

00:00:20.070 - 00:00:30.570

Very good. Once again, thank you for the opportunity and the privilege to share. I'm Vincent Oliver.

00:00:30.570 - 00:00:46.370

I am a native of Detroit, Michigan. I'm born and raised. And when I relocated to Delaware, I was working at

00:00:46.370 - 00:00:58.290

Aquinas College in Grand Rapids, Michigan where I happen to have graduated from. It was a predominantly white setting.

00:00:58.290 - 00:01:06.140

I think out of an enrollment of 1400 students, there was something like 25 black students and I

00:01:06.140 - 00:01:26.340

was there on an athletic scholarship. I ran track at at the time, good pole vaulter, quarter mile or so. I was working at at at Aquinas College as

00:01:26.340 - 00:01:38.420

a coordinator of a minority student recruitment. I guess I made so much noise as a student about the college is Ni,

00:01:38.420 - 00:01:50.020

to attract more diversity and specifically black students. That they took me up on my challenge and created a position for

00:01:50.020 - 00:01:57.430

someone who would be responsible as a part of the admissions office. So we are building up

00:01:57.430 - 00:02:07.850

the black student enrollment, which I was pretty successful at four, two or three years, which was the length of

00:02:07.850 - 00:02:17.600

time that I worked there. As a result of that professional exposure. At the college level, I saw an opportunity

00:02:17.600 - 00:02:28.730

to come to University of Delaware, so I applied for a position there. And they basically were in the same situation that I had

00:02:28.730 - 00:02:42.270

come out of the University of Delaware at that time, which was in 1976. They were dealing with

00:02:42.270 - 00:02:56.450

black students who are underrepresented, but also who were very vocal in the lack of inclusion, that the University of Delaware

00:02:56.450 - 00:03:10.660

was not including them in the college life. As always, university's academic format was very high in its standards.

00:03:10.660 - 00:03:20.190

So it was a good place to go academically. But for those students who were on campus who will relocate, it all came from different places.

00:03:20.190 - 00:03:31.880

It was a pretty tough setting. And one of the results of the students really protesting and getting

00:03:31.880 - 00:03:41.000

the attention of the administration was to create something that they call the minority center, you know, today as

00:03:41.000 - 00:03:47.420

the Center for Black culture. Alright? And they, they began a national search looking

00:03:47.420 - 00:03:58.670

for someone who could coordinate that effort of creating a center on campus, which would be a hub or a place

00:03:58.670 - 00:04:16.910

for black students to gather and also to bring programming. That was the other complaint. University of Delaware just completely

00:04:16.910 - 00:04:31.980

ignored black students and their interest in programs that made sense to them. Whenever they are concert came on campus.

00:04:32.110 - 00:04:41.090

I felt was not interested in, yeah. Okay. It did not even take their their musical interests and entertainment and

00:04:41.090 - 00:04:52.280

cultural interests into consideration. I don't know how much that has changed work probably get into that. I really hope this interview doesn't get

00:04:52.280 - 00:05:01.920

jaw in a difficult position, but i'm, I'm going to beat Frank. We're not worried about being in a difficult position.

00:05:01.920 - 00:05:14.630

That I'm not I'm not going to hold back on my opinion. The University of Delaware and I'll wait. So that's what brought me to Delaware.

00:05:14.630 - 00:05:25.900

I relocated my family, my wife and I. We had one son at the time from Grand Rapids to Delaware. And I took the position

00:05:25.900 - 00:05:36.550

as coordinated minority students. The coordinator of the minority center, which ultimately became the Center for Black culture.

00:05:36.550 - 00:05:49.410

There's an interesting story too that I'm the Dean of Students at the time was, was, was pretty adamant about

00:05:49.410 - 00:05:56.650

the minority centers shouldn't really just catered to black students. Which is why they named it the minority sentence.

00:05:56.650 - 00:06:09.260

So as I put programs together, I had to be sensitive to other cultures, which I thought was just ridiculous, totally ridiculous.

00:06:09.260 - 00:06:22.490

Native Americans and Hispanics. They were not there fighting the fight for diversity. But we had to include them

00:06:22.490 - 00:06:31.340

into the programming format. It was just it was just idiotic. All right. So what and it didn't

00:06:31.340 - 00:06:44.300

change until I left that they caved in and recognize this was a center for Black culture and the needs of black students who they were the most vocal,

00:06:44.300 - 00:06:58.780

the largest minority, and who really was being left out. So I spent, I believe, not quite five years at the university.

00:06:58.780 - 00:07:11.070

When I arrived there. What I've found at the professional level were black professionals like myself who were not

00:07:11.070 - 00:07:18.670

happy with the environment. But we're doing a couple of things. They were putting up with it because they had been there a long

00:07:18.670 - 00:07:28.240

time or it was a stop on it was a resume builder. It was something that they wanted to do to go somewhere else.

00:07:28.240 - 00:07:43.140

I came there thinking that this could be it. I thrive in this environment and, and see if there was room for professional growth and all of that.

00:07:43.140 - 00:07:57.020

So as I was there, we built upon some things. There was already the Black Arts Festival. And we put some programs together

00:07:57.020 - 00:08:11.150

that spoke to the students needs. I met with all of the fraternities and sororities to find out what their feelings were in

00:08:11.150 - 00:08:22.010

terms of what their needs were. Met with Muslim students who, who were in a significant number to make sure that they were

00:08:22.010 - 00:08:38.060

being served as best we could. And I say we because I hired some students who helped me navigate my way around. One, I don't know if

00:08:38.060 - 00:08:49.430

you guys are local or you're from Delaware. Know I'm I'm from New Jersey. I'm from Richmond, Virginia. Okay. Alright.

00:08:49.430 - 00:08:58.200

So Delaware is just unique. Okay. I'm coming from Detroit and from Grand Rapids.

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This was culture shock. So all of that and I, and I utilize students and some of my professional colleagues to help me

00:09:08.900 - 00:09:21.050

figure out that thinking process and the lifestyle that I needed to be aware of in order to be effective in doing what my job description asked me to do.

00:09:21.050 - 00:09:33.800

I think we we we made a lot of headway. And while I was there, the university began to identify some other offices and

00:09:33.800 - 00:09:46.530

administrative positions that cater to diversity. I can't I can't recall the exact terminology, but they,

00:09:46.530 - 00:09:57.740

they they began to recognize that they needed to get some high level people of color in administrative positions at

00:09:57.740 - 00:10:09.630

the University of Delaware. I have no idea where that is right now. So we did the best we could with a very difficult situation.

00:10:09.630 - 00:10:20.390

Let me just say you can do an overview and then you can ask me some specific questions at some point, this thing where you want it to go.

00:10:20.390 - 00:10:33.680

But my tenure there ended fairly rapidly. I wasn't I wasn't fired or dismissed or anything like that. But in my interest for

00:10:33.680 - 00:10:44.390

getting to advance professionally, I applied for a position as an assistant dean of students. I can't even remember what it

00:10:44.390 - 00:11:01.250

was to specifics work. They took a national search and I felt, I felt the how can I put this? I felt my professional colleagues laughing

00:11:01.250 - 00:11:12.190

at me for even applying for the position. I'm not I'm talking about my weight. Our professional colleagues. Nevertheless, I entered my resume into

00:11:12.190 - 00:11:25.330

the national search and they, they interview, I think about 15 candidates and narrowed it down to, I believe, four finalists.

00:11:25.330 - 00:11:36.770

And they ranked the finalists. They ranked me third. We did a second set of interviews. And then they began the hiring process.

00:11:36.770 - 00:11:48.860

They they offered the job to the first gentleman who was from out of town and he turned the job down because his wife either couldn't

00:11:48.860 - 00:12:01.130

find employment in Delaware or something. The second person was offered the position, whatever the extenuating circumstances, what he termed the position.

00:12:01.130 - 00:12:08.240

Yeah. So here they are with candidate of number three where everybody had snicker that

00:12:08.240 - 00:12:17.730

for applying for the position and then someone in one of the vice presidents are over. I think one of the provost's

00:12:17.730 - 00:12:33.640

made a decision to discontinue the search. No reasons just discontinued the search. And then about a month later, the position was re-posted.

00:12:33.640 - 00:12:48.110

And the criteria require someone with a doctoral degree. So they very nicely sidestepped the final candidates.

00:12:48.110 - 00:12:57.170

So that's when it came to me. That university they really didn't want him. They didn't want to do what they said they wanted to do.

00:12:57.170 - 00:13:06.050

They talk a good game and they still talking a good game. And they're not going to get around to doing some of the things

00:13:06.050 - 00:13:17.460

that they say they want to do. Until some external pressures or some financial issues forced them to do that. And every now and then

00:13:17.460 - 00:13:26.770

they'll they'll come around and they'll say some stuff. But from my perspective, that was what, 40 years ago.

00:13:26.770 - 00:13:41.310

They still doing the same stuff. Still the same the same core mentality is there at the upper levels. And I'm talking about administrators and

00:13:41.310 - 00:13:57.470

trustees because I don't see movement in the areas where they could do a better job of serving the needs of

00:13:57.470 - 00:14:14.000

so many black students who choose University of Delaware and write rightfully so because of its academic credentials. But then they are shortchanged.

00:14:14.000 - 00:14:29.350

And the only way I can put it is white students. They have the full benefit of the university, the campus on-campus

00:14:29.350 - 00:14:44.240

experience without limitations, without suppression, put it that way. So I moved on. And it wasn't long after that that

00:14:44.240 - 00:14:55.470

I took a position in Wilmington as the executive director of kings were Community Center, which was one of the largest

00:14:55.470 - 00:15:08.740

community service and social service centers in the city. So that's basically my History. At the University of Delaware.

00:15:08.740 - 00:15:20.540

I didn't not sever ties are kept in contact with administrators for the Center for Black culture. Some of the students that I trained

00:15:20.540 - 00:15:30.740

and worked that worked for me, follow my footsteps as directors and assistant dean of students and all of that.

00:15:30.740 - 00:15:44.840

I think the Center for Black culture has recognized my work as one of the founding, the founding Director and honored me a couple of times.

00:15:44.840 - 00:15:52.990

I don't I don't have a problematic relationship with the university. I just I just kinda

00:15:52.990 - 00:16:06.290

understand that they still have not evolved where they need to go in order to be what I consider a top tier institution of higher learning.

00:16:06.290 - 00:16:17.240

So you guys are free to ask me questions or get clarification on what I've already said. Well, one thing, do you remember the guy

00:16:17.240 - 00:16:28.170

that is a professor, who was a professor back then, they came to speak to us and I'm pretty sure. You worked with him?

00:16:28.170 - 00:16:35.510

James Newton? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. Okay. How did you guys do any specific works together and stuff like that?

00:16:35.510 - 00:16:45.240

Yes. When I when I arrived here, Dr. Newton and his wife. Embraced me and my wife.

00:16:45.240 - 00:16:57.380

I mean, when I say embrace, she came to the house because my wife had not found a hairdresser. She was doing my wife's hair

00:16:57.380 - 00:17:08.800

and showing us around and helping us find a place to live and and given us an understanding, taken us to Wilmington so that we could see,

00:17:08.800 - 00:17:22.450

see black communities and all of the different things that were unique to Delaware. So Dr. Newton was alleging van.

00:17:22.450 - 00:17:36.530

Yeah. Okay. And he is obviously an icon when it comes to black life and Academic Excellence at the University of Delaware.

00:17:36.530 - 00:17:46.370

So yeah, we we had a real good working relationship. I see him every now and then. A matter of fact, in my profession

00:17:46.370 - 00:17:55.520

in social services, I called on him on number of times to help out and to give an academic perspective on

00:17:55.520 - 00:18:04.460

some of the things I was working on. Yes. I know I know Newton well, okay. Okay. Yeah, it was interesting because we

00:18:04.460 - 00:18:11.560

obviously around a month or two ago, we got to speak to him. Okay. As far as a class

00:18:11.560 - 00:18:21.020

or a whole entire class, he came in. Was it was it was it was definitely worth Listen. He spoke to us for probably about

00:18:21.020 - 00:18:34.240

2.5 hours or even go now. Remind him that his wife was outside waiting for yeah, No, I know he definitely the

00:18:34.240 - 00:18:44.660

shared a lot of experiences with that. Well, worth listening to experience. And I remember when we were told that we were going to be interviewing

00:18:44.660 - 00:18:49.610

you are professor, let us know that you guys had a good relationship. We do. Yeah.

00:18:49.610 - 00:18:57.740

Steel. That's great. I'm going back before University of Delaware. Far as when you were still in

00:18:57.740 - 00:19:09.220

Chicago? Detroit, excuse me. As far as when you were there, what do you remember as far as like things that may be affected,

00:19:09.220 - 00:19:15.680

like maybe even whether it be your upbringing or experiences in college that you may have had, that, that really changed

00:19:15.680 - 00:19:21.770

your perception of things. That when you got here it was like, wow, this is a lot different. Because I know it was a cultural

00:19:21.770 - 00:19:31.790

shock just being here in Delaware at University of Delaware, so well, I started getting my education in college at a predominantly white

00:19:31.790 - 00:19:46.100

private Catholic college. All right. So those were the days when we didn't have problems protests and taking over

00:19:46.100 - 00:20:03.840

the president's office and doing things that really had shock value in order to get people to hear us. So I came to

00:20:03.840 - 00:20:20.790

Delaware with a good track record of what I needed to do to get the establishment to include those who are not of the majority.

00:20:20.790 - 00:20:30.920

Okay. And that may be why they hired me and probably regret it because I knew how to make noise.

00:20:30.920 - 00:20:46.070

By the time I got to university Delaware, I make noise in a much more refined and acceptable way. But at the same time, giving pressure,

00:20:46.070 - 00:20:58.310

I I spent a lot of time and energy with the fraternities and sororities. Anybody who was pledging, you guys are frat brothers,

00:20:58.310 - 00:21:10.520

know, we're on a football guy. Alright. That's a fraternity in and of itself. But, but, but if you were pledging male or female,

00:21:10.520 - 00:21:21.050

if you could make it to the Center for Black culture. Being whatever was going on with that line was put on hold.

00:21:21.050 - 00:21:36.740

Because it became a sanctuary for not only people who are pledging, but for students who just were not being served in their dormitory lifestyle,

00:21:36.740 - 00:21:49.960

um, who needed a place to connect with somebody that could talk, listen. We had an art gallery. I think the art gallery is still over there.

00:21:49.960 - 00:21:59.380

On the second floor. You've been in the Center for Black culture? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We started that and gave people,

00:21:59.380 - 00:22:09.830

local artists, the opportunity to do their thing. So I guess what I brought to the university

00:22:09.830 - 00:22:19.030

from my previous experience, not in Detroit, because I went in Detroit. That was a whole nother ball game. I went to.

00:22:19.030 - 00:22:35.270

A predominantly black high school, but it was a Catholic school, so that was just just kinda different. And I don't know how I was

00:22:35.270 - 00:22:51.230

prepared for the University of Delaware in my upbringing in Detroit. Other than to be pretty clear of who I was and what I,

00:22:51.230 - 00:23:05.700

what values I want it to make known to others and share in B, presented for the mainstream. Okay.

00:23:05.700 - 00:23:17.000

But yeah, I was prepared for University of Delaware to a lot of life experiences at the college level. Incidentally, I met my wife in

00:23:17.000 - 00:23:27.200

college because it was so few black people there. We sort of connected. And now here we are

00:23:27.200 - 00:23:42.440

getting ready to celebrate 50 years of marriage in next May. So be careful who you meet. Okay. So good question.

00:23:42.440 - 00:23:50.840

As far as obviously like you said, it prepared to as far as the things you might have experienced, they're kind of prepared you,

00:23:50.840 - 00:23:58.520

but as far as fighting, the fight would differ with different from being in Grand Rapids, trying to fight whatever file

00:23:58.520 - 00:24:04.130

you may have their flight in there. And then coming to the University of Delaware and trying to fight the fight here, I had to do it differently.

00:24:04.130 - 00:24:12.230

I was I was an employee of the University of Delaware, so I had boundaries that I couldn't cross without putting

00:24:12.230 - 00:24:25.980

my own professional integrity on the line. So I had to operate within the bounds. And that's what Newton came in, was helpful in keeping me out of trouble.

00:24:25.980 - 00:24:35.780

When I got hot and I became angry when I want it to do go hard after a situation. You know, it was it was new.

00:24:35.780 - 00:24:46.190

Who, who sort of said, look, there's another way to do that. We won't get put out if we do it like this. So yeah, I had

00:24:46.190 - 00:24:56.060

to I had despite the same fight, but I had to do it with different weapons. One of the ways we did it is I help them organize

00:24:56.060 - 00:25:10.600

a black student newspaper. So we could write about some of this stuff and publish it. Plus there were some very gifted people

00:25:10.600 - 00:25:21.450

who wrote poetry and good writers in their own right. Soap. So it was another outlet. It was just another voice.

00:25:21.450 - 00:25:35.110

People need, black people needed to be heard. They were being ignored. And when the administration sort of underwrites when you take the 18,

00:25:35.110 - 00:25:46.660

they take the lead on ignoring issues that are important to black students. Then, then the entire campus atmosphere is redirected.

00:25:46.660 - 00:25:58.250

Okay? So we had to, we had to fight and push four, I'm black entertainers and black poets and enough of the bluegrass,

00:25:58.250 - 00:26:10.700

enough for the, you know, the, the, the, the rock and all of that. It was some stuff that meant was important to our students.

00:26:10.700 - 00:26:21.640

And we had to sort of push and fight for it and then not have it be a a second rate venue somewhere. I know I don't know what what

00:26:21.640 - 00:26:35.540

the student center is today, but but the student center at my time, there was some main rooms that were reserved for the major the major acts.

00:26:35.540 - 00:26:43.520

And then there were some side rooms and places. I never forget. Gil Scott Heron.

00:26:43.520 - 00:26:58.460

I brought Gil Scott Heron rest his soul to the University of Delaware at the, at the recommendation of the students. And I won that fight.

00:26:58.460 - 00:27:06.980

But the fight I lost was the venue where we will go on to let him do his thing. And that's back when guilds got Aaron

00:27:06.980 - 00:27:21.060

was I mean, he was rocking. And we were given a place, a room called the Backus. And he got there earlier that Friday

00:27:21.060 - 00:27:34.470

before he was supposed to do his thing on on that evening. And I took them over to the Student Center. And is the buck is still there?

00:27:34.470 - 00:27:42.920

Yeah. I'm not sure. Okay. That'd be good to find out. And he went in and he

00:27:42.920 - 00:27:56.000

saw the name of the role and he said, why why why would you allow them? I mean, he he blasted me. Alright. I was that

00:27:56.000 - 00:28:06.330

was hard. I had to take it. He said, Why would you allow them to bring me to a room called the buckets, which of course, That's wine and

00:28:06.330 - 00:28:20.480

married men and being frivolous. He said, listen, you just told me that you all not taking my performance. Serious. You're not taking what

00:28:20.480 - 00:28:35.240

I have to say series. You put me in a place of four playground. I'm still hurts to hear me repeat that. So that's an example of the kinds

00:28:35.240 - 00:28:46.490

of battles we had to figure out how to win. Alright, so that we get, we get the people that you've been ignoring. We get them on campus.

00:28:46.490 - 00:28:56.510

But now what do we do? Okay, let's see if we can get them in a place where it's not just a black event. All right?

00:28:56.510 - 00:29:08.000

But it is a cultural event for the campus and not just for certain group boom. That's the justified.

00:29:08.000 - 00:29:15.290

Alright. That's what we were trying to do and to some extent we were successful. But then again, alone

00:29:15.290 - 00:29:21.520

being recorded but why people don't be waiting? Okay. Absolutely. Yes. Just, you know,

00:29:21.520 - 00:29:35.880

they probably somewhat saying black people don't be Black, Pete does not decay. I always been curious about like,

00:29:35.880 - 00:29:44.180

why are there no light black fraternity houses on campus? That I couldn't tell you. Because I really think that that

00:29:44.180 - 00:29:58.070

position that I was applying for, that that they sort of discontinued. I think it was about it had to do with an Assistant Dean of Students who

00:29:58.070 - 00:30:13.670

was over Greek affairs. That's not the term they used. But I would've been responsible for all Greek organizations.

00:30:13.670 - 00:30:31.300

And I guess that didn't sit well. Not just, you know, black fraternities and sororities, but all of them in depth and that lifestyle.

00:30:31.300 - 00:30:39.410

You're right. You're right. And of course, there was always in I don't know what it is today, but there was a double standard.

00:30:39.410 - 00:30:49.760

Alright. Um, I used to be told that, you know, that the housing situation had to do with the longevity of

00:30:49.760 - 00:30:57.390

the organization until I did my homework and found out that that our organizations have been around. Okay.

00:30:57.390 - 00:31:08.180

So maybe not on that this particular campus, but they have been around. So I really don't have an answer to that question.

00:31:08.180 - 00:31:17.180

Especially when my wife and I drive to campus now and see all of the new buildings and how the university is

00:31:17.180 - 00:31:31.370

expanding and taking over any empty space that becomes available. So yeah, that's a great question to pursue. At another level.

00:31:31.370 - 00:31:39.290

Going off of what you just said, the expansion of the university. Were you around when the new London like

00:31:39.290 - 00:31:48.400

community was still around? Yeah. I was, um, can you speak, expansion of a university in

00:31:48.400 - 00:32:09.230

into that into that community. They didn't expand into the community. The community just was was swallowed up. The Wilson Community Center was named

00:32:09.230 - 00:32:21.270

after a guy who was the father of the gentleman, Dick Wilson. I don't know if you've heard that name before.

00:32:21.270 - 00:32:32.990

Wilson was a, an iconic figure at University of Delaware for sort of breaking race barriers. In when I arrived there.

00:32:32.990 - 00:32:44.540

He had he was in the Office of Admissions. Not because he wanted to be an admissions officer, but because he was becoming

00:32:44.540 - 00:32:53.900

too influential in other areas. So he had been demoted by the time I got there. So that was a voice that had been

00:32:53.900 - 00:33:06.850

taken away from Wilson, was connected to that new London. Community in New York, alright. Where the odds fellow

00:33:06.850 - 00:33:18.860

building is and where the project's used to be. So he gave a voice to the community who, who saw the writing on

00:33:18.860 - 00:33:25.000

the wall that they will get ready to get swallowed up. The churches, the local churches in that area.

00:33:25.000 - 00:33:37.300

So that was another dynamic. I kinda lost touch with that when I when I moved away from that professional setting

00:33:37.300 - 00:33:48.910

and started working in Wilmington. Yeah. Okay. I have a question. So as far as obviously,

00:33:48.910 - 00:33:56.950

I don't know how many more there were besides you and Professor new doctor knew at the time. But like as far as like

00:33:56.950 - 00:34:06.530

you're overwhelming feeling relationship, all of you guys as being here at the University of Delaware, like, what was your main objectives as far as

00:34:06.530 - 00:34:15.690

being in the administration of being in the faculty here, as far as like, where were you guys trying to consistently get accomplished together?

00:34:15.690 - 00:34:22.510

What and how did you guys work together to work towards those accomplishments? I I don't know that I was ever

00:34:22.510 - 00:34:40.340

a part of or if there was a organized group of black professionals. There were very, very many gifted black professors

00:34:40.340 - 00:34:53.510

and administrators who came to University of Delaware. And of course, their credentials got them there,

00:34:53.510 - 00:35:04.790

but it didn't it didn't move them any further than where they were in most instances, I don't I don't recall anybody being elevated

00:35:04.790 - 00:35:18.880

within the university always would move on to different and better positions elsewhere. So I can't speak to any organization,

00:35:18.880 - 00:35:29.090

any organized plans or goals of black professionals. We just saw kinda had a consensus that this was the way things

00:35:29.090 - 00:35:40.710

were and we will go into either suffer it to be so or do, or we could in our particular area of discipline.

00:35:41.080 - 00:35:50.880

So I know the professor Newton told us often that while he was, while he was here, that he dealt with a lot of,

00:35:50.880 - 00:35:57.420

as far as this is relationship with African-American students that were on campus, anything, obviously,

00:35:57.420 - 00:36:04.370

just as anybody would anywhere, even to this day. Really being a confided in, being confided in a lot

00:36:04.370 - 00:36:11.750

more with the black students because you guys are both African-American. Did you have any experiences with that as far as the students, aren't you?

00:36:11.750 - 00:36:22.560

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have relationships with former students who will

00:36:22.560 - 00:36:34.290

become colleagues and in the professional world. And they'll tell you, the minority senate was a place that you could go

00:36:34.290 - 00:36:46.210

in and talk about being homesick. You could go and sort out some stuff that was going on in your life or the dorm?

00:36:46.210 - 00:37:01.590

Yeah. My wife and I, we became surrogate parents, you know, take people home and give them a home-cooked meal and all that.

00:37:03.060 - 00:37:16.960

It had its benefits. I'll tell you a very interesting story. We created a dark room at the Center for Culture,

00:37:16.960 - 00:37:30.880

black culture, so that students could come over and learn photography and develop them. So, you know, I'm dating myself now. I hired a guy,

00:37:30.880 - 00:37:44.230

hired a guy named Rick guide barber. He he was in ROTC on campus and he was a member of one of the fraternities.

00:37:44.230 - 00:37:54.210

So he's very, very well-known, very popular guy. Hired him to work the dark room and to help out.

00:37:54.670 - 00:38:08.450

He left the university and joined the Air Force. And then when I arrived you, I'm sort of jumping all over

00:38:08.450 - 00:38:25.110

trying to put the story together. One wheel, when we arrived here at my, my my son was maybe three or four years old. So some some 20 years later, 25 years later.

00:38:25.990 - 00:38:38.160

He met a young lady. And she went home and told her stepfather that she was dating a guy named Vince out.

00:38:39.070 - 00:38:52.220

The guy that turned out to be her stepfather was the guy that I'd hired to do my darkroom. Show you how small the world is. Wanting hurt. That's always

00:38:52.220 - 00:39:10.170

what you owe for you to know about benzo over number two. So this circle is a very small in terms of Delaware.

00:39:10.270 - 00:39:25.700

So we remain friends with a lot of students that we met, that Rick, I would always come home from service and find me. Okay.

00:39:25.700 - 00:39:34.330

Talk to me. I've got friends who live in Atlanta that talk to me. Should I should I moved to Atlanta, Should I relocate?

00:39:34.330 - 00:39:43.710

And they're still in Atlanta? Having listened to some of the advice, I got some dyes that I still think for helping me move my furniture,

00:39:43.710 - 00:39:49.450

which was in storage when we first got here because we didn't have anywhere to live live it out at the hotel.

00:39:49.450 - 00:39:58.910

I still think those guys because, I mean, these young guys stopped and they they looked out for us, you know. So yeah.

00:39:58.910 - 00:40:13.180

I value what we were able to do in terms of I call it administering that. That's the pastoral term for ministering to the needs of the students here along.

00:40:13.180 - 00:40:23.900

I hope you guys have somebody like that on campus now? I do. Do you I've had a couple of I mean, obviously being on a football team, you know,

00:40:23.900 - 00:40:31.220

it's it's a little different. As far as you know. A lot of things we do we do together as far as their coaching staff and stuff.

00:40:31.220 - 00:40:41.920

But I've definitely, I've had a couple of professors to build true relationships with most of them. I mean, my minor is Africana studies.

00:40:41.920 - 00:40:49.600

So like one of my teachers, professors Serrano, he think that he was not only a great teacher,

00:40:49.600 - 00:40:57.310

but a good leader within the African-American community as I'm just camping. And I have a lot of respect for

00:40:57.310 - 00:41:09.520

him and he was he was a good teacher. And I've never been a big student person, but he may not have class enjoyable, but information though.

00:41:09.520 - 00:41:20.380

So definitely, we definitely have professors on this campus. You'll never forget. Absolutely.

00:41:20.380 - 00:41:27.040

When you graduate you, he'll still have a role in your life or you always stay connected because that's just

00:41:27.040 - 00:41:35.510

how it is. Yeah. So I have another question. As far as I know that you explain to us earlier, you know,

00:41:35.510 - 00:41:42.890

you put your name in for that position and you know, you can hear the snickering from your own peers and whatnot.

00:41:42.890 - 00:41:54.880

Not these were these were not my peers. These were these were other white Professionals. Okay. And we just shocked that I wouldn't

00:41:54.880 - 00:42:09.380

even think to apply. So how was your relationship with with your peers on this campus now, that's something I know.

00:42:09.380 - 00:42:18.120

No relationship. There was there were two gentlemen to their credit. They included me.

00:42:18.340 - 00:42:31.610

They put me under the category of student center programming. And there was a dean for programming and he had

00:42:31.610 - 00:42:43.790

a staff of about three or four professionals. And they were responsible for different areas of student program programming, as was I.

00:42:43.790 - 00:42:58.010

Alright. And to their credit, they would include me in their meetings and planning sessions and some of their even social gatherings

00:42:58.010 - 00:43:07.280

that didn't work for me, but I appreciate the fact that I was invited. So no, I didn't have that kind of a relationship.

00:43:07.280 - 00:43:22.610

It would be interesting to find out. And you'd have to do it. You'd have to do it on two different levels. Professional university employees

00:43:22.610 - 00:43:36.740

versus faculty members. Those are two different settings for which people might congregate together. And I could see it happening more in

00:43:36.740 - 00:43:49.130

the lines of academic personnel, faculty members because they have a common bond, either in their particular discipline

00:43:49.130 - 00:43:55.470

or the fact that they are part of the faculty, be they tenured and untenured, whatever the case may be.

00:43:55.470 - 00:44:08.200

That's not the case with professionals. People in administration, people. I had good close relationships with people who were librarians and

00:44:08.200 - 00:44:17.560

People who are over maintenance and that different, you know, that's that's just wait. That's just the way things were.

00:44:17.560 - 00:44:28.840

Again, perfectly I haven't things that I have advanced and changed. I had a question about like, what does climate is going on

00:44:28.840 - 00:44:44.380

right now was like the police during that time in Delaware. How's that? Well, if if the police

00:44:44.380 - 00:45:05.000

were racing racist and I didn't see any overt racism. It was not a blatant lack of respect. It was not rogue

00:45:05.000 - 00:45:18.800

in I just don't think police then versus police today are the same. I think it's a whole different breed of police who I don't

00:45:18.800 - 00:45:30.910

know if they really recognize they're calling. So no, we didn't experienced blatant racism in terms of police,

00:45:30.910 - 00:45:42.320

new art police or campus police, I shouldn't say didn't experience, but it wasn't anything out of the norm. Okay.

00:45:42.320 - 00:45:50.330

So no, I I I personally did not have that those kinds of experiences, nor did I encounter

00:45:50.330 - 00:46:00.740

students that we're dealing with that taking us the bank as far as obviously we were just speaking about your peer appears on campus,

00:46:00.740 - 00:46:09.800

the white peers on campus. Do you feel like not enough field? Was it more so of them not interested in building a relationship

00:46:09.800 - 00:46:15.770

with you or was it just like whatever to them? Like were they not was it not even something that was really it

00:46:15.770 - 00:46:22.130

wasn't blatantly like trying to stay away from you or whatever. No. No. I think people would

00:46:22.130 - 00:46:35.630

just their own little world trying to do their thing and make a living and move up the professional career ladder. And they really didn't have a lot of opinions

00:46:35.630 - 00:46:49.220

about what I felt or what I was going through. So no, I didn't see it as blatant or some kind of premeditated resistance.

00:46:49.220 - 00:46:59.010

No, none of that is just people being people, you know, it was a professional setting and people were motivated and driven to do what they do.

00:47:00.100 - 00:47:13.790

So here we are, obviously it's 2021. So this is a question that we've pondered over a lot as far as obviously you started here,

00:47:13.790 - 00:47:21.290

he said 1976 as when you got here. Yep. So 1976, I don't know the percentage of black students

00:47:21.290 - 00:47:28.050

on campus back then. All I know is that to this day, that percentage really has not changed that much.

00:47:28.050 - 00:47:37.640

That's right. What do you feel can be done on this campus to not only from a student's standpoint as

00:47:37.640 - 00:47:47.540

far as and as well as you as somebody who worked in administration as a faculty member, what can be done to not only raise

00:47:47.540 - 00:47:56.120

the percentage and make African-American students more comfortable, but even the administration and faculty make them more

00:47:56.120 - 00:48:11.660

comfortable about the University of Delaware. Well, from my a wealth of wisdom over the years, I think it has to

00:48:11.660 - 00:48:34.510

happen external, not internally. And I looked at Delaware State University. Delaware State University was ever considered second-class college.

00:48:34.510 - 00:48:47.420

When I got hit with Delaware State College. And I couldn't ever figure out what I was on campus at Delaware State. I was exposed to the professors and

00:48:47.420 - 00:48:59.040

the administration and it seemed to be no difference. Okay. And then I realized what the difference was.

00:48:59.500 - 00:49:19.220

University of Delaware has historically had legislators in Delaware General Assembly making legislation available so that the university's

00:49:19.220 - 00:49:29.800

endowment and operating funds and budget will always be superior to anything else. Okay.

00:49:29.800 - 00:49:37.470

Then here recently in the last four or five years, I don't know if you're in touch with what's going on in Delaware.

00:49:37.470 - 00:49:47.920

Delaware has the largest number of black legislators in office at a statewide level. In the history of this state.

00:49:47.920 - 00:50:00.980

Okay. I think we have something like eight or nine state representatives and one black senator.

00:50:00.980 - 00:50:11.320

Okay. That that's unheard of in this state. Okay. So much so that they they have a a Black Caucus,

00:50:11.320 - 00:50:23.500

a black legislative caucus that is wielding significant political power in the General Assembly. Okay.

00:50:23.500 - 00:50:43.480

Consequently, Delaware State University has become a little more recognized and included in the funding funnel of dollars,

00:50:43.480 - 00:50:51.860

operating dollars, and money that goes into an end. I'm not getting it totally accurate because that's not

00:50:51.860 - 00:51:02.720

my desk discipline or expertise. But what I see happening is at, at that level, Delaware State University is

00:51:02.720 - 00:51:17.680

becoming more competitive in terms of academics superiority with the University of Delaware. So what that says to me is that

00:51:17.680 - 00:51:27.910

I think the difference is going to be made when legislatively, someone in the General Assembly stands up and says, you know,

00:51:27.910 - 00:51:38.580

for the last four years, you've been you've been tapping into state funds to do X, Y, and Z. What you've been undeserving.

00:51:38.580 - 00:51:48.680

A significant population in the state of Delaware. And unless you do a, B, and C, We're going to have to

00:51:48.680 - 00:51:56.780

reconsider this kind of language that the President of University of Delaware and the board of trustees will

00:51:56.780 - 00:52:07.870

listen to and get serious about, okay, we gotta do better with the black student account. That's just a little seasonal

00:52:07.870 - 00:52:18.590

speech that they, you know, dog and pony show that they've run out every now and then, say face to sort of make

00:52:18.590 - 00:52:28.760

sure they fulfill some promises they made earlier and all that. But my point is, less, The University begins to

00:52:28.760 - 00:52:38.580

suffer financially because they can, whether those publicity storms, it's embarrassing when they see an article in the news journal saying,

00:52:38.580 - 00:52:47.720

this black student population has not changed in x number of years. But they can, people will forget about that. And then I'll move on.

00:52:47.720 - 00:52:55.760

Audio, put somebody in a position, get a little task force, it, a little ad hoc committee. They are talking about it and come up with

00:52:55.760 - 00:53:04.310

some reports and recommendations and will never hear the end of it. It never hear anything else about it. But until that things doors to affect

00:53:04.310 - 00:53:18.190

their financial impact on this date. Okay. Nothing's going to change. The needle will not move in terms of progress.

00:53:18.190 - 00:53:23.350

And some of the things that we would like to see happen, which is, you know, we need, we need more students,

00:53:23.350 - 00:53:39.310

we need more scholarships. We mean, we need more faculty that bring expertise to disciplines that would attract people

00:53:39.310 - 00:53:46.630

that looked like UNI. They're out there. They will come. It's just a matter of higher.

00:53:46.630 - 00:53:57.900

That's right. That's exactly correct. Gotta make it attractive. Yeah. Okay. So that's my song and dance.

00:53:57.900 - 00:54:12.670

Understand this day. Good. All right. Well, I appreciate this talk. I appreciate you for coming on here and now holding back

00:54:12.670 - 00:54:20.290

and being honest that stuff, but like that's what needs to be heard. I hope it's helpful. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

00:54:20.290 - 00:54:28.870

Good. Now, what years are you guys in? I'm in my last couple of weeks here, so you give I graduate.

00:54:28.870 - 00:54:39.390

This is my last class. Yeah. Good for you. Let's say you have a degree in history and Africana Studies. Okay. That was my major.

00:54:39.390 - 00:54:46.310

Undergraduate history. Really good. Good for you. Got any plans?

00:54:46.310 - 00:54:54.290

The next two months I'll be trained into getting the NFL. I'll be in San Diego January and February and they come back

00:54:54.290 - 00:54:59.420

here and March for my pro day. We got put your name on our prayer list at the church. Please.

00:54:59.420 - 00:55:08.340

Please do not give me give me your full name. Column in the second gene.