00:00:00.000 - 00:00:28.760

[Emily Bonistall] Okay. So we'll go ahead and get started. This is an interview with Marian Palley, on April 27th at 2 o'clock. And the interviewer is Emily Bonistall.

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All right. So we'll start with just a couple of background questions if that's okay. Tell me where did you grow up?

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[Marian Palley] I grew up in New York City. [EB] New York City. What was it like growing up either in that area or in your household as a girl?

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Were there different expectations for girls than there were for boys? [MP] Well, my mother was a professional woman. Consequently, no.

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[EB] Okay, very good. Can you tell me a bit about your early schooling? [MP] What do you want to know?

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[EB] Specifically, did you have any experiences in your early schooling that influenced either your involvement

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in what major you would choose? Down the road. Sort of, your interests... [MP] Well both my parents were social studies teachers and then my mother became

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a high school administrator, but her background had been in History. So they both had advanced degrees in History. [EB] Okay, great.

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What was your undergraduate and graduate education like? [MP] In what...? [EB] Did you... how did you make

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your decision about what area you would study? [MP] I majored in Political Science as an undergraduate, and I started out as an Economics major.

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I liked my Political Science instructor my freshman year and I changed my major. [EB] Okay. Were you active in

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the early Women's Movement? [MP] No. [EB] When did you become, IF you became active in the Women's Movement at all? [MP] I don't know that

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I ever became active in the Women's Movement. I've been involved with organizations. I've been on the board of Planned Parenthood of Delaware, for example.

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And I belong to every women's organization, I think on the face of the Earth, but never as an activist until I was involved with Planned Parenthood.

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And that was, I became involved actively about 10 years ago. I supported, but I wasn't engaged. [EB] Interesting.

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So did you, would you self-identify as a feminist? [MP] Yes. And I would have self- identified 40 years ago as a feminist as well. [EB] You would have or haven't? [MP] I would have.

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Oh, yes, yes, yes. [EB] Did you have what we call it, the "feminist spark"? Was there something that sort of made you realize that this was your way of thinking?

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[MP] I guess I never thought about it. So I can't answer the question. I'm sorry. [EB] Maybe the influence of your mother as a professional? [MP] Possibly, possibly.

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[EB] Interesting. Okay, so how do you view the relationship between feminist advocacy and academics? Or do you,

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feel a relationship between the two? [MP] I think one has to be careful to separate advocacy from education. That's just my position.

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I do not advocate in class ever. Because I think that it's counter-productive. I think it's more important for people to learn to think for themselves.

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And in class, I've always had a mantra: I don't care what you write on the exam, As long as you can

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justify what you're writing. You don't have to agree with me. And perhaps the best example I can give of this was when

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I first started teaching. And this was in the early 1970s. And we did a class simulation of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee

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and we were looking at the war in Southeast Asia and Vietnam. And at the end of the semester, on the final exam,

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I asked a question, curiosity more than anything. And the question was, "What's the professor's position on the war?"

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And half the class said I was pro-war and half the class said I was anti-war. I do not believe in advocacy in education. I think they're separate,

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and I think one should be careful. [EB] Very interesting, thank you. When did you start working here at this university? [MP] 1970. [EB] 1970. And in what capacity? [MP] As an assistant professor in Political Science.

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[EB] And were you at all involved with Women's Studies when you got here? [MP] I think Women's Studies started a couple years later and I was not really involved

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because I had a newborn when I came here. Literally, she was 2 months old and a 3-and-a-half year old. So when Women's Studies started,

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I imagine my children were 2 and 5-and-a-half, and I had very little time for things other than that which was designated as my role as

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a professor. Supportive, yes. Involved, no. [EB] And is your job here what brought you to the state of Delaware? [MP] Yes. [EB] So what would you say influenced,

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as you just mentioned, the Women's Studies department developed after 1970 when you got here. What would you say influenced

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the push for the development of that? Was that perhaps changes in the University? Was it Title IX? [MP] I think it was... You know I don't really know.

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Certainly Mae Carter and certainly everyone with whom you have spoken, has mentioned Mae. And if they haven't, then they weren't here.

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And you're smiling so I know I'm correct. I imagine that she had a certain amount of push that came from

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the second Women's Movement, from the development of the organizations that resulted in the post 1966 period. She's certainly was influenced

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by Betty Friedan. And I think that... I can't remember the exact title of her position. I think she was an

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assistant to the President, but you might have to check that with someone who knows better. And I think that one of

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her portfolios, was women, and though at the present time the student body is 57 or 58% women, then it was a minority.

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And I think that these forces, these factors influenced Mae, who then went out and tried to mobilize the women on campus,

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of whom there were very few in tenure-track positions at the time. I was the only woman in this department. And when I came here,

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there were no women in Sociology, no women in Anthropology. So there were very few women. [EB] That's fascinating. So who, besides Mae Carter,

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would you say were the important allies that supported the development of Women's Studies? Specifically, were there

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any important allies in the administration? [MP] I imagine that the President, at the time was Art Trabant, must have been supportive.

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Had he not been supportive, this wouldn't have gotten off the ground. I also mentioned that Leon Campbell, who I think some time in

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that era became the Provost, was probably supportive. And there was a woman Dean, Helen Gouldner became Dean some time

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in the... you have to check the date, but I imagine maybe 1975 or 1976. She came as Chair of Sociology and then she became the Dean, and at that time,

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I think there were two other women in the Sociology department. But you'd want to check that as well. [EB] Interesting.

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So sort of the flip-side to the allies. What sort of resistance did you see in the development of the Women's Studies classes, the program?

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[MP] I think early on it was so minor that there was probably if there was resistance I was not aware of it.

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It was just too minor a program. I don't even know if they had an office originally. I can't remember. [EB] Were you here when they had

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the first team-taught class? The first class that was taught was team-taught, correct? [MP] Could be. I don't know.

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[EB] You weren't involved in that? [MP] No. [EB] Okay, I wasn't sure. What do you think as a professor,

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Did you see any influence of the offering of Women's Studies classes? Has it affected any of your students or faculty? [MP] Well, initially,

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I think most of the classes that were offered were cross-listed. And the people who offered the courses, of course, were teaching

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the courses in their own departments. So I doubt there was much resistance. No, I can only speak from the perspective of my department.

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When I announced I wanted to teach Women in Politics, I was told to go and have fun. You want teach, then they put it in the books.

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It's still on the books. Political Science/ Women's Studies 323. And I can't remember when I started offering the course,

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but I would imagine that I started offering of the course probably in the early 1980s, but you'd have to go.

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I don't remember. [EB] It sounds like your program was quite supportive of that. Were there... Do you know if

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since there were limited women in faculty programs in general and then often they were either

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untenured or newly-hired. Was there any sort of concern or risk to offering a class that would have been cross-listed with Women's Studies?

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[MP] I had... There was no risk to me. At all. None. The only piece of advice I was given by my then Chair,

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I had two book projects that were looming off in the future. One dealt with urban public policy and the other one dealt with

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women and public policies. And they both came to fruition. They were both published. And he told me, at the time

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I was an Associate Professor, He said, "Do the urban policy book first." I said, "Why?" He said, "I just think you should do it first.

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I think that it will serve you better." He had no problem with my doing the other book, but it was just

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his read of promotion and tenure at the University. [EB] Interesting. What role, if any, did students play in the early development of Women's Studies?

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[MP] I can't tell you. I don't know. Remember that there were not that many women students. And I will tell you, when I came to

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the University of Delaware, I had no women advisees. Every one of my advisees for the first 4 or 5 years I was at Delaware

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was a man. I think the first woman who I remember and I don't know if she was my advisee or not,

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or just someone who was in my class who later became a friend was Kathy Turkel. Okay. [EB] Okay, so let me see...

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A lot of the stuff that we're learning in class is about the name of the program then, the name of the program now. And you know, well, I guess I should ask you this.

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How do you feel about the name change from the Women's Studies to Gender Studies? [MP] I think Gender Studies is probably more inclusive.

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And if you have the GLBT in the program, you can't call it Women's Studies. It's not an appropriate name. [EB] That's a good point.

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If my documents are correct, you served as Director? [MP] I did. Twice. [EB] What years did you serve as Director? [MP] 1989 to 1990.

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I'd have to check my CV and then... hold on... [EB] Well, I have this here. I don't know if it's on this timeline. [MP] Let's see. But I served twice. Once for a year, and then for 6 years.

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[EB] For 6 years? [MP] I was Director from... I'll tell you this doesn't tell me what you need. What you want to know. So I'll tell you what, I'll check it.

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I can honestly say I can't give you the dates. And my computer isn't working very well. I've seen all sorts of professors with iPads.

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They rave about them. The accessibility of being able to read PDFs and access your email. [MP] Well we're not picking up right now. I'm not getting... I don't have access. Let's see if I can if I can figure it out.

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It was certainly either 1988 to 1989 or 1989 to 1990. And then it was 2000... Monica has been Director for 5 years. I think this is... this might be her 6th year.

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Maybe 2002 to 2008. Or 2001 to 2007. Sometime in that time frame. [EB] Can you share with me some of your experiences? Any of the challenges, the growth?

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[MP] Well, when I became Director. The first time I was the Director of the program, I was filling in for Sandra Harding,

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who was on leave. And the second time I had two three-year terms because at the time there were three-year terms because it was a program.

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And during the 6 years that I was Director, we went from having no full-time faculty, having four full-time faculty. The Director was given

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a Chair's salary and a Chair's teaching load. Our offices were moved from 333 Smith, which was kind of cavernous, you've seen it, you know, into real offices.

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We got a chaired professorship. The budget was increased rather dramatically. I came in and we had a new Dean. He said, "What do you need?"

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I told him and he gave it to me. So we had a lot of money. We could do lots of things that previously we couldn't do.

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And I think that we had an outside review during that period. Jessica did unbelievable amount of work putting that

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external review together. I mean, I probably got more credit for it, but she did most of the work. And one of the results

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of that external review, was it said, we needed more faculty and we should be a department. The Dean was very supportive.

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And within two years of my leaving, the issue of a departmental status became very viable. And in fact, Women's Studies

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was then made a department. So a lot happened during that 6 years. And during that period of time we did... We worked with

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the Institute for Women's Policy Research, and I chaired the committee that oversaw the development of the report on the status

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of women in Delaware. We held a bunch of conferences. We had press releases. We were on the front page of the NewsJournal

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when that report came out. As a result of the press conference, we got a lot of visibility. We also ran huge numbers

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of programs on campus, brought in lots of speakers. Did lots of public programming to get a lot of attention.

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And it worked. We got a lot of visibility. [EB] What do you think? That's an incredible amount of growth. [MP] It was a tremendous amount

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of growth because the part-time faculty became full-time, Kathy Turkel and Sue Cherrin became full-time.

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We set it up so that Marie Laberge first, became half-time, and then she became three-quarters time. And when I left,

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I set it up with the then Dean that she would become full-time. And then of course, Margaret Stetz was hired as a chaired professor.

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So you know, a lot was going on. A lot was going on. [EB] Do you think the growth can be attributed to any one thing? Or any number of things? To the people who were involved?

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[MP] I think that it can be attributed to a very aggressive campaign on the part of those of us in Women's Studies and the fact that we were getting very high enrollments.

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And so, the courses were very popular. And third, the Dean. Well, I think there were three Deans during that period of time.

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All were supportive. We had very supportive administration in the College. And I think that all helped.

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[EB] Do you remember which Deans? [MP] The first one was DiLorenzo, and then the next one was briefly Mark Huddleston, and then Bobby Gempesaw.

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[EB] So originally when you got here, you were supportive, but not involved, and then became obviously very, very heavily involved. What shifted that allowed you to?

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[MP] My children grew up. And Mae Carter probably even remembers the exchange. She asked me to do something.

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And I said, "Mae, I have two small children at home. I have a full teaching load and I want to become a Full Professor. I'm writing books.

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You'll be very proud of me when I get, when I'm promoted and I'm a Full Professor. Then I'll work on Women's Studies." And she agreed,

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and she reminded me of it years later. She still probably remembers. [EB] That's interesting. It's fascinating because I often, as a graduate student,

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as a female graduate student, who hopes to go into academia, I often hear that, sort of, getting tenure is what you have to put first. Would you?...

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This is a very selfish question for myself. Would you have any advice for those of us on how to balance this? You know, how to balance your load

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in your home department versus being able to cross-list or get involved with the Women's Studies program or department? [MP] I didn't. How's that for advice. I didn't. The other piece of advice

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is get a get a good babysitter or a housekeeper, and have your mother move to town. [EB] (Laughs) All good advice. [MP] My parents moved here.

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They have always wanted to live in a college town. So within two years of our moving here, my parents moved here,

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and knowing that my mother was always there as potential backup, and having a very good housekeeper

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who was very devoted to me and my children were very important. And I should note that when at one point, I had to, I guess,

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my housekeeper was sick and before my mother moved here, and I needed... I had classes to teach. And Margaret Andersen came over

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and would take care of my children when I was teaching my classes and had office hours. So you have to have a network of

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friends and that's probably the most important, best advice I can give you. You have to have a network of friends who can back you up. [EB] Thank you for that. So you were the Director when the two

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half-time faculty hires... [MP] Became full-time. [EB] How did that happen? Was that something that you campaigned to the Dean?

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[MP] I certainly did. Absolutely. [EB] So the major was approved, according to our records in the 1993-1994 school year. [MP] That sounds about right.

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[EB] And then six majors graduated within the first class. Can you tell me about what you remember from that?

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How the major came about? Were there hurdles to that? Why a major versus a minor? [MP] There was a minor. [EB] Oh, I'm sorry.

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That's what I meant. I'm sorry, the minor. Was there...? [MP] I can't tell you. I simply don't remember. I simply don't remember. [EB] Yes, I'm sorry

00:21:56.210 - 00:22:11.150

that's my fault. The minor was first. [MP] I doubt that. Just as an aside here, I don't know this for a fact. I doubt there was much resistance to establishing a minor.

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I mean, the courses were being offered. [EB] What about a major? [MP] When was the major established? We have that the minor was in 1978. And then the major was in 1993. [MP] Right.

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I don't remember either. Though, I would imagine that establishing the major probably wasn't too much of a problem either.

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The courses were being offered, money was being given to the program, for S-contracts. And there were part-time faculty

00:22:41.870 - 00:22:51.170

teaching courses, and people like me teaching cross-listed courses. There were courses in Political Science, courses in History.

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There were courses in Psychology, and Sociology. So I don't think that there was an issue. And a lot of the people who were teaching these courses were senior faculty.

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[EB] What impact have you seen on Women's Studies as they moved into a department status? [MP] I don't know what you mean. [EB] From the program to become the department?

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[MP] I don't know. I don't know what you mean. [EB] Was there any sort of benefit that was given because you were seen as a department and

00:23:20.720 - 00:23:28.320

no longer just the program? [MP] You know, it's interesting. When I was directing Women's Studies and this is before it became a department.

00:23:28.320 - 00:23:36.980

I used to go to Chairs' meetings. I was treated as a Chair. And I used to say, "I walk like a duck, and I quack like a duck,

00:23:36.980 - 00:23:47.030

but they call me a goose." And I used to say that about the program too, because we often had more majors than some of the departments and we taught

00:23:47.030 - 00:23:57.600

more students than some of the departments. I think that the evolution into a department was just the logical next step. Because it was

00:23:57.600 - 00:24:11.250

a program that was treated as a department. [EB] What is the difference between being a program versus a department? You'd have to check this

00:24:11.290 - 00:24:24.590

in the handbook, University handbook or administrative handbook. But certainly, at least in theory, programs can't hire.

00:24:24.590 - 00:24:39.620

Departments can only hire. So that is certainly one difference. When I was Director, certainly during the last 3 or 4 years

00:24:39.620 - 00:24:47.420

of time frame, we were treated as a department, even though we were not a department. And we were given a chaired professorship.

00:24:47.420 - 00:24:59.480

Obviously, we were allowed to hire. [EB] Interesting. So was the department status seen more as a formality at that time? [MP] I can't tell you.

00:24:59.480 - 00:25:09.800

Ask Monica. Ask Jessica. I don't know. I wasn't involved. [EB] Given your position in Political Science,

00:25:09.800 - 00:25:17.640

why were you committed to Women's Studies? [MP] Why was I what? [EB] Committed to Women's Studies? I've done a lot of writing on gender.

00:25:17.640 - 00:25:32.950

I've written 1- 2- 3- 4 books on women. One of them is out in three editions. So I've done a lot of writing. I've probably written 30

00:25:32.950 - 00:25:40.900

or 40 articles on women. I've done a lot of research on women so that's why I was committed to it.

00:25:40.900 - 00:25:58.390

As an academic discipline to me, it made sense. As an academic discipline. [EB] Have you seen Women's Studies influence your own discipline at all?

00:25:58.390 - 00:26:07.690

[MP] No. I don't. You know, Claire Rasmussen teaches feminist theory. She's a political theorist. I don't know if you've interviewed her.

00:26:07.690 - 00:26:19.750

She's more recent, so you probably haven't. And we have hired two people who do gender and globalization. And Leslie Goldstein, who is retired,

00:26:19.750 - 00:26:26.540

used to teach Women in the Law. And I taught Women in Politics. And I also for a while taught Gender and Globalization.

00:26:27.960 - 00:26:39.530

But I think that people in Political Science who teach these things, teach it from the perspective of the discipline of Political Science.

00:26:39.530 - 00:26:48.580

And there is... the framing in Women's Studies is different. It's a separate discipline with a separate theoretical base.

00:26:48.580 - 00:26:58.750

Different from Sociology, and different from Political Science. So when I teach women, and this was the justification I used when

00:26:58.750 - 00:27:09.400

I asked to teach the class in the department. I said, "I want to teach Women in Politics." And they looked at me. I said, "Well, I could teach politics in any subset of

00:27:09.400 - 00:27:17.980

interest groups, or social movement. I want to look at women." The Chair said, "That's fine." I mean, I could have done Politics

00:27:17.980 - 00:27:29.440

and Native Americans. I could have done Politics and the Elderly. I said, "I want to do Politics and Women.

00:27:29.440 - 00:27:40.910

But we're using the frameworks of Political Science. It's a Political Science course. So if you speak to Ken, for example, he'll tell you it was a Political Science class. I don't do Feminist Theory.

00:27:41.970 - 00:27:55.850

[EB] How do you... [MP] That's my training. [EB] Right. What do you think that means for many of the Women's Studies classes? Not just here but at many universities. They're cross-listed.

00:27:55.860 - 00:28:04.450

But do you think that strengthens or hinders a Women's Studies degree? [MP] I think it strengthens it. And the reason I think it strengthens it

00:28:04.450 - 00:28:17.500

is you're looking at the issues from a broad range, not just through a narrow prism. So you're getting some historical framework,

00:28:17.500 - 00:28:23.770

you're getting a sociological perspective, you're getting a political perspective. I think Women's Studies is a wonderful interdisciplinary

00:28:23.770 - 00:28:30.740

or multidisciplinary major. It's not interdisciplinary. It's multi-disciplinary. I think it's a fantastic multi-disciplinary major.

00:28:34.410 - 00:28:48.760

[EB] How have you seen Women's Studies, either the field in general, or Women's Studies here, this is just sort of a reflection, sum-up question. How have you seen it grow and

00:28:48.760 - 00:28:59.180

evolve over the last 4 years? [MP] Well, there's certainly a whole lot more faculty involved. And I think that there are

00:28:59.180 - 00:29:09.780

many more students taking the courses. And I think that the expansion probably reflects changed status of women in American society

00:29:09.780 - 00:29:17.260

and changed patterns of social and political participation and workforce participation. So, I think all of these things

00:29:17.260 - 00:29:29.150

are a factor. And I think that having very strong teachers. I think that everyone

00:29:29.150 - 00:29:36.530

who teaches in Women's Studies, I think the core faculty are all very strong teachers, draw students in, as well.

00:29:36.530 - 00:29:50.770

I mean, you have phenomenal faculty over in Women's Studies. [EB] You mentioned the status of women. Do you think, or how do you think, the Women's Studies department here

00:29:50.770 - 00:30:03.270

has helped improve the status of women on campus? [MP] I think it's... I don't think it's a one-way street. I think it's interactive.

00:30:04.660 - 00:30:17.550

I think that as more women became tenured, they were more willing to, as myself, to participate in Women's Studies. I also think that

00:30:17.620 - 00:30:28.820

this University was much more, and it had to do with the administration, People who are in administrative positions, were more women-friendly

00:30:28.820 - 00:30:36.650

if that's... I'm not sure if that's the right terminology. Supportive of women than was the case

00:30:36.650 - 00:30:44.480

in many other universities. I'd go to meetings and I'd talk about opportunities that I had on campus, and my women friends

00:30:44.480 - 00:30:51.980

and colleagues opened their eyes and said, "You're kidding!" I said, "No, no. This is, you know... I had a Chair when

00:30:51.980 - 00:30:58.250

I first came here who would never call a meeting after 3 in the afternoon because I had to be home by 4PM because that's when my housekeeper

00:30:58.250 - 00:31:04.570

left and he'd never call a meeting before 9AM because that's when she came in. Now, you have to admit

00:31:04.570 - 00:31:12.970

when you have, and he had stay-at-home wife. Okay. When you have a Chair like that, it makes it much easier.

00:31:12.970 - 00:31:22.430

And I think the whole, in many ways the whole institution, was supportive for whatever reason. I think there was support in the institution.

00:31:22.430 - 00:31:31.270

I don't think there were barriers put up for women. Now, if you go over to the Science side, there aren't that many women. And there were

00:31:31.270 - 00:31:37.360

even fewer if you go back 30 years. But I think that has much more to do with the fact that women weren't getting advanced

00:31:37.360 - 00:31:42.250

degrees in those fields. But in fields where women were getting degrees... Isn't Sociology about half

00:31:42.250 - 00:31:51.250

women now in the University? Anyway, I think the University was supportive. Everything I wanted to do was

00:31:51.250 - 00:32:01.640

supported by the University. I never, ever complained about administrative support at this university, for me as a woman.

00:32:01.640 - 00:32:10.720

[EB] Is it different than most campuses? [MP] Well, as I said, when I tell people, my women friends and colleagues at other universities,

00:32:10.720 - 00:32:20.830

about Delaware they'd be awestruck. because they were not having those experiences. And I think that

00:32:20.830 - 00:32:31.430

it says something for the folks who were in leadership positions. Early on. That Mae Carter was given the opportunity to

00:32:31.430 - 00:32:44.510

help set up a Women's Studies program, I think is very reflective of that. [EB] Okay. Just a couple more questions, and then I think we'll be done. [MP] And I don't know what

00:32:44.510 - 00:32:48.790

other people have told you. Other people may have had different experiences. I don't know.

00:32:48.790 - 00:32:57.770

It's possible that people other people in other departments, but I never, never had a negative experience being a woman on this campus. Never.

00:32:57.770 - 00:33:04.070

I was made, I was here for 3 years and I was promoted to Associate Professor. And then 4 years later I was

00:33:04.070 - 00:33:13.730

made a Full. Okay. So, you know, there are rules and I remember being at a meeting and Mae was probably

00:33:13.730 - 00:33:21.620

at the meeting. And people... it was a group of women we met over in Perkins and people were complaining they had childcare responsibilities and

00:33:21.620 - 00:33:28.880

home responsibilities. And I said, "You know, you don't go on to a football field and play basketball. If you want to be

00:33:28.880 - 00:33:37.900

at a research university, you're at a research university, Don't make like you're at a teaching college." And if you'd played by the rules,

00:33:37.900 - 00:33:48.800

I found by playing by the rules, I was very successful. I was Chair of the Political Science department in 1979. 1979 to 1984.

00:33:48.800 - 00:34:04.860

I was the only woman Chair in the College. I had the complete support of my department. Okay? So, you know, as I said, I've had very positive experiences,

00:34:05.290 - 00:34:11.650

and I think the fact that the University of Delaware was one of the earliest Women's Studies programs in the country,

00:34:11.650 - 00:34:19.760

is a reflection of the environment. I don't know if we were the first, but we were certainly one of the first. Mae could probably tell you for certain.

00:34:19.760 - 00:34:33.510

Jessica might be able to tell you also. [EB] Regarding your involvement with Women's Studies, or just your experience around campus, what would you say you're most proud of?

00:34:33.700 - 00:34:44.560

[MP] My students. I have student who have been very successful, men and women both. That's what you should... And if that isn't what you're

00:34:44.560 - 00:34:58.610

most proud of, then you shouldn't be here. [EB] Very cool response. Two thumbs-up on that one. What do you think in terms of Women's Studies, women's role on campus, any of that,

00:34:58.610 - 00:35:09.320

what still needs to be addressed? Where do you think we need to continue to grow? [MP] In the Women's Studies program? Or the status of women on campus? Well, I certainly know that

00:35:09.320 - 00:35:19.770

in the hard sciences there still is an under-representation of women on the faculty and student body. You know, we make a big fuss about diversity.

00:35:19.770 - 00:35:27.260

Gender is diversity too. And in some departments, it's not an issue. In this department, it's not an issue.

00:35:27.260 - 00:35:36.750

In some departments... On the hard science side, I know it's an issue. So diversity. The buzz word of the year, certainly.

00:35:36.750 - 00:35:45.320

And that's certainly one thing. Women's Studies can't do anything about that. Because, it's essentially a Social Science, Humanities program.

00:35:45.320 - 00:35:54.230

Those are not the units with the problem. I know there are still pay disparities. And in part that's because you have a disproportionate share of women in

00:35:54.230 - 00:36:01.130

departments that are not as well paid. Engineering departments get paid a hell of a lot more than Foreign Languages

00:36:01.130 - 00:36:10.340

and Literatures, or English. So there certainly... I know the AAUP can provide the data. I don't

00:36:10.340 - 00:36:16.520

know it off the top of my head. But I know there are pay disparities. Some of that probably is a function of length of

00:36:16.520 - 00:36:26.720

time women have been on campus, but I don't know. There certainly has been change in recent years.

00:36:26.720 - 00:36:39.680

One can get a parental leave at full pay on this campus. That was put in the contract 5 or 6 years ago, you'd have to check the contract.

00:36:39.680 - 00:36:50.620

So things have happened. I don't know that Women's Studies was a part of this. Certainly women were part of this.

00:36:50.620 - 00:37:04.900

That's very different. And men who were supportive of women. It's interesting if you think back to the Seneca Falls convention.

00:37:04.900 - 00:37:15.480

And there was a debate about participation of men and of course, in the movement. and in the years following, in the Suffrage Movement, and

00:37:15.480 - 00:37:25.730

the point raised was always, men had to vote to let us have the vote. And that is an issue so that in that women have

00:37:25.730 - 00:37:34.440

been successful on this campus. Initially it was men who pushed for women's success. And sometimes we forget that.

00:37:34.440 - 00:37:57.770

I hate to admit it, but it's true though. [EB] Just two more quick questions. There are some people who are critical of Women's Studies as a serious or viable discipline. What would you say to those people? [MP] Well I... They should look at the literature.

00:37:57.770 - 00:38:05.230

That's the first thing they should do. There is literature in Women's Studies. Just as there's a literature in History and Political Science,

00:38:05.230 - 00:38:14.310

and Sociology, and Anthropology. Two, they should look at the work of the scholars who associate with Women's Studies.

00:38:14.310 - 00:38:24.230

Most of it is as good as it gets. You know, not everything, but you know, not everything in Sociology is good either.

00:38:24.230 - 00:38:33.160

Or, Political Science is good. And three, as a major, it provides a breadth of knowledge and experience that

00:38:33.160 - 00:38:41.660

other majors simply don't provide because it's multi-disciplinary. It's a liberal arts education. And if you want a liberal

00:38:41.660 - 00:38:53.240

arts education, it's good. I would argue it's a good field. Though, let me just give the second piece of this. I don't know what happens when you go out

00:38:53.240 - 00:39:01.760

and an employer says, "What was your major?" And you say, "Women's Studies." And they say, "What's that?" I don't know what happens.

00:39:01.760 - 00:39:13.060

I don't know how majors explain it unless they explain it as a broad-based, multiple, multi-disciplinary major

00:39:13.060 - 00:39:29.210

with a core literature in additions of it. You know, you have the core and you have this expansive multi-disciplinary perspective. What did you major in as an undergraduate? Sociology?

00:39:29.210 - 00:39:44.340

[EB] Sociology. I also have a Women's Studies degree. I was a dual major. But there was a lot of overlap. [MP] Of course. [EB] With the cross-list, it was easier to make that happen, but yeah, it was both. [MP] Okay.

00:39:45.310 - 00:39:51.770

[EB] Okay. Finally, how do you feel that your story and your role contributes to the

00:39:51.770 - 00:40:08.310

creation of the department? And what do you want people to take from your story? [MP] You know, I think that in this case, the evolution of the department

00:40:08.310 - 00:40:17.210

is a process that had a lot of people involved. I don't think there's any one person who was primary except maybe Mae Carter,

00:40:17.210 - 00:40:28.070

who got it moving in the first place. But I think that all of us did different things and it was one plus one plus one plus one.

00:40:28.070 - 00:40:37.550

It was all very additive over the course of time. And I think that one should be leery of people who claim too

00:40:37.550 - 00:40:47.330

much for themselves in the development of any institution. I don't care if it's a political institution

00:40:47.330 - 00:40:55.670

and non-voluntary institution, in this case a major, a department. But I think that there are some people who don't get

00:40:55.670 - 00:41:04.920

sufficient credit. The person who comes to my mind is Emily Hayworth. I don't think she ever gets the credit she should get

00:41:04.920 - 00:41:18.000

for this becoming a department because boy! she kept that paper. She kept track of everything, for 18 or 20 years as the office person.

00:41:18.000 - 00:41:24.590

I don't have titles. Probably senior secretary. She never got the status she deserved, but she was

00:41:24.590 - 00:41:31.930

the continuity along with Jessica. Jessica gets credit. Emily does not get credit. And I think that's unfortunate,

00:41:31.930 - 00:41:39.310

but I don't think any single person. So I'm hesitant to say, "What I did made the big difference." Now, I did things that were

00:41:39.310 - 00:41:47.380

important for Women's Studies, but I think that it's very cumulative and additive. And I think that you've had a lot

00:41:47.380 - 00:41:59.620

of very good scholars, myself included, who did a lot of publication, who were very visible on campus. I think that's part of it.

00:41:59.620 - 00:42:09.000

For a while you had Margaret Andersen, who was the Associate Provost and then she was the acting Dean. She's a very good scholar.

00:42:09.000 - 00:42:17.540

Along with other... For years, we had Helen Gouldner as Dean who's a very good scholar, looked

00:42:17.540 - 00:42:22.970

at women's friendship patterns. So there were a lot of women doing a lot of scholarship and very actively involved.

00:42:22.970 - 00:42:30.650

And none of us were shy. We all are on the... We all got ourselves in the print media when there was print media,

00:42:30.650 - 00:42:36.460

and then on UDaily. So everybody knew what we were doing. So no one could say, "Well, there are no good scholars." That wasn't,

00:42:36.460 - 00:42:45.110

no one ever said that. And I think that was a piece of it. I think some very good leadership of the program over

00:42:45.110 - 00:42:54.700

the course of time and a tremendous amount of focus. And I think third, and I mentioned this before,

00:42:54.700 - 00:43:05.360

but I think it's very important. Very good teachers. Very committed to their students. And students who developed a passion. I think all of this is important,

00:43:05.360 - 00:43:26.850

but not one person, not one thing. Accumulation. [EB] Well that's all the questions that I have. Do you have anything that you want to add? Or that I didn't bring up? [MP] I'm curious, you know in the early years

00:43:26.850 - 00:43:37.310

it was a very shadow program. And I'm sure you know that. I'm sure other people have told you that, but I'd be curious.

00:43:37.310 - 00:43:46.070

And I can't answer the question. This is a question to you. I'd be curious to know what the take-off point was. When it went from being

00:43:46.070 - 00:43:55.130

a shadow program into something that was more visible and aggressive. And I don't know what. I can't tell you when that was.

00:43:55.130 - 00:44:05.660

And maybe it just evolved. It may have just evolved. I don't. I simply don't know. It probably happened when

00:44:05.660 - 00:44:17.000

you had more women hired on campus. But I really don't know. [EB] I'll add that to our interview questions. [MP] I just, I'm curious more than anything else. Is there a take-off point?

00:44:17.000 - 00:44:27.200

Maybe not, I don't know, but I think it's just an interesting kind of question. [EB] And if there's not a take-off point, how did it just evolve?

00:44:27.200 - 00:44:38.210

[MP] It might have just been, you know, kind of accumulation, accretion over, I don't know. But it's something that

00:44:38.210 - 00:44:51.950

when you first contacted me, I was thinking, "Hmm, so I know when it began and I know started it. And then how did it get

00:44:51.950 - 00:45:04.880

to the point where it was visible?" And I I really don't know. [EB] So would you say that that happened before your involvement? [MP] I don't know. I think so. I think that

00:45:04.880 - 00:45:16.860

certainly not to the extent But there was no full-time faculty. So I think that may have been something, but there had to be something before then.

00:45:16.860 - 00:45:28.000

Before I became the Director for 6 years, when I was during that one-year stint that I did in the late 1980s,

00:45:28.000 - 00:45:46.290

Women's Studies was not as visible, didn't have the same, I don't know... status on campus. How's that? Something happened in that intervening period.

00:45:47.440 - 00:46:05.050

[EB] We learned about, in 1976, this retreat. That a bunch of the women Margaret Andersen, Sandra Harding, Mae Carter. All these people went on a retreat to sort of talk about the program, and the future of it. What sorts of structural changes would need to happen.

00:46:05.050 - 00:46:18.230

I wonder if part that came from there? [MP] I can't tell you. [EB] It was from the Dean. The Dean set that retreat up. [MP] I can't tell you because I wasn't there. It's quite possible.

00:46:18.230 - 00:46:26.700

I simply don't know. But you know, it's interesting. As a sociologist, you certainly can understand

00:46:26.700 - 00:46:35.460

what I'm about to say. If you're living from day to day, you don't see change and suddenly you say, "Oh my god, look at the difference."

00:46:35.460 - 00:46:47.390

And I think that's a part of it. You know, when you're going through it, it's all very plodding and you don't see any advance, any changes.

00:46:47.390 - 00:46:58.130

And then when you go back to 1972 or 1973, and you move fast-forward 40 years, you say, "Oh my god, what's happened?" I think that's a big piece of it.

00:46:58.130 - 00:47:09.680

[EB] Look how far we've come? [MP] Right. Not just Women's Studies, but the role of women more generally. When I first started

00:47:09.680 - 00:47:18.350

teaching at the University, I taught huge sections of American Politics. in 130 and 140 Smith. You know, 250 or 300 people.

00:47:18.350 - 00:47:28.370

It was a dog-and-pony show. And I... one of the statistics I always used was, and I preface it by saying, "Now I don't want

00:47:28.370 - 00:47:39.590

the women in this class to get depressed." But one of the statistics I always used was that a male high school dropout had a higher lifetime earning capacity

00:47:39.590 - 00:47:52.010

than a white woman college graduate. Okay, that's the expression I used to get, the one that you just gave me. And I'd hear the moans and groans.

00:47:52.010 - 00:48:00.680

Well, you can't say that anymore. Okay, so that's a big change. And then I used too. At the time, women earned on average

00:48:00.680 - 00:48:07.750

$0.59 for every dollar a man earned. And if you go into the Bible, you can see that, and I can't remember which book it's in.

00:48:07.750 - 00:48:17.540

It might have been the Book of Leviticus or Numbers. I can't remember. That a woman was worth 60 silver shekels compared to a man, who's worth

00:48:17.540 - 00:48:30.570

a 100 silver shekels. It was the same thing. It hadn't changed from the Bible. So there have been a lot of changes. There have been a lot of changes.

00:48:31.690 - 00:48:43.410

And I think one has to kind of keep that in mind. Women's Studies in many ways parallel a lot of the changes, the social changes in society, expectations.

00:48:45.070 - 00:48:52.640

How many of your friends are married? How old are you? [EB] 24. [MP] How many of your friends are married? [EB] Most of them. [MP] You're kidding! Really?

00:48:52.640 - 00:49:03.020

[EB] Well, most of my girl friends from college are. [MP] Are married? [EB] Most of my girl friends from the program are not. [MP] When I... I remember asking my daughter

00:49:03.020 - 00:49:09.620

this when she was about 28 or 29 and she said, "Almost none of them." They're all married now,

00:49:09.620 - 00:49:17.940

but almost none of them. It's a little young to get married. And of course, the average age of marriage has gone up.

00:49:17.940 - 00:49:33.650

And when I was in college, by the time I graduated, all but one of my friends was married. We all graduated, you know, I was 20 when

00:49:33.650 - 00:49:40.190

I got married. If my daughter came home, when she was 20 and announced she was getting married, her father probably would've broken

00:49:40.190 - 00:49:51.050

both knees to prevent her from moving. It's a little young, right? So there have been a lot of changes. You know, and the opportunity structures have

00:49:51.050 - 00:50:00.110

changed along with the delay in marriage. And I don't know what the average age of marriage is now, but it's much later.

00:50:00.110 - 00:50:11.120

The size of families, a lot of this... You know one of the things we haven't mentioned was birth control. You know, a lot of this relates back to

00:50:11.120 - 00:50:20.670

the pill. So once you had the pill, beginning in the 1960s, you were able to see some kind of seismic shifts.

00:50:21.250 - 00:50:34.850

[EB] Was there? Was there any influence of the Women's health center? That you saw on campus? I'm just curious. [MP] There was...

00:50:34.850 - 00:50:44.150

and I can't remember the guy's name. There was a doctor who would not distribute the morning-after pill or birth...

00:50:44.150 - 00:50:53.080

I think must have been the morning-after pill. And the then President of the University, was David Roselle. Women students

00:50:53.080 - 00:51:02.050

went and complained, and there was a mobilization. And he told the doctor in question, "You can either distribute it, or find another job."

00:51:02.050 - 00:51:12.720

That's a bottom line that's not exactly what he said. That's David Roselle. The Roselle Center for the Arts. I can't remember if it was the morning-after pill

00:51:12.720 - 00:51:25.580

or birth control It was probably the morning-after pill. [EB] That's interesting. My undergrad was a Catholic university. [MP] I know. [EB] Which is probably

00:51:25.580 - 00:51:39.660

why a majority of my friends are married, or at least engaged at this point. But you could not, by University rules, they could not give birth control,

00:51:39.660 - 00:51:47.840

if you said that you wanted it to prevent pregnancy. Because if you weren't married, then you were having pre-marital sex, [MP] Right.

00:51:47.840 - 00:51:56.480

[EB] and that went against what the university believed in. But we had a phenomenal feminist doctor who was in charge. And as long as you said [MP] To control menstural cramps.

00:51:56.480 - 00:52:11.240

[EB] She was the only one, who would say, "Are you having cramps?" And you would say, "Yes." And she would give it to you. [MP] I can't remember when this took place, but I remember this because

00:52:11.240 - 00:52:25.150

this was really quite something. [EB] Have you seen a lot of mobilization of students on campus? [MP] No. Have you? [EB] No. Not since I've been here. [MP] It's a very

00:52:25.150 - 00:52:38.570

un-mobilized, is that that the word? Un-mobilized. Non-mobilized? Quiet campus. So the answer to your question is No.

00:52:38.570 - 00:52:48.430

which isn't to say that students sometimes don't organize to make demands. But I think that it's done in a very civil fashion.

00:52:48.430 - 00:53:00.410

If that's the correct terminology. You don't get mass demonstrations on this campus, for whatever reason. But I don't think

00:53:00.410 - 00:53:10.110

there are mass demonstrations on most campuses these days. So we may reflect the rest of the university world in this regard.

00:53:10.110 - 00:53:39.770

[EB] Well, thank you very much. Do you have anything else? [MP] No. [EB] I have a release form. If you could please? [EB] I really appreciate you taking the time to talk with me. [MP] No problem. [EB] At this point, we

00:53:39.770 - 00:53:50.480

are not doing full transcriptions, are doing take logs. But the hope is that we'll be able to get someone this summer to be

00:53:50.480 - 00:54:13.000

able to turn everything into full transcriptions. And at that point, we'll make sure we send it to you so you can look it over, and make sure you're comfortable with it. [EB] Do you have any questions for me? [MP] No.

00:54:13.000 - 00:54:26.000

Good luck on the project. [EB] Thank you.