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[Marie Laberge] This is Marie Laberge. I'm here with Bonnie Kime? Or Kim? [Bonnie Kime Scott] Kime. [ML] Kime Scott, on June 26th in Bethany Beach. Thank you for having me. [BKS] Delightful.

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[ML] So I want to start by getting some background information about you. What is your sort of academic history? And how you sort of got to Women's Studies?

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[BKS] Okay. Well, first of all, I went to a women's college, Wellesley. And that was very motivating in terms of

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seeing role models of women who'd become professors. And, I wanted to major in everything. And that's probably a good anticipation of

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interdisciplinary interests because I think probably I needed that when it wasn't there. Graduated from Wellesley in 1967 and

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went on to University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. My major in both sets of studies was Literature and

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focused mostly on modern British literature, increasingly on modernism. >> My undergraduate thesis was on James Joyce and Virginia Woolf.

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And I've just finished a book on Virginia Woolf. So I've kind of stayed in that area. Finished up in Chapel Hill.

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Well, actually, we moved to Newark, Delaware in 1970 when my husband Tom, was employed by the Psychology department as an Assistant Professor.

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And by 1973, I had acquired my Ph.D. I wrote my dissertation at distance, which was first tricky, and with a new baby. But that was

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kind of par for the course with me. And we eventually have 3 children, and spaced widely enough part that I never really stopped doing

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the academic things. At Delaware, At first, I was just sort of writing a dissertation in a bedroom, but I, I got to know people

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in the English department and particularly women in the English department. Jan D'Armond was very, very encouraging.

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And when she retired, there was a full-time position available in the department and in a national search, I did secure it. But prior to that,

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I had gotten involved with the Women's Studies in its stage when it was offering a single course,

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a semester with various faculty coming in. And as your timeline re-establishes, it was the fall of 1973 that I supervised that course.

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[ML] So I wonder if you could talk about with that course consisted of? And how that was sort of pulled together? [BKS] Yes.

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It had faculty from across the curriculum, I remember. Is Ken Ackerman one of the people who taught? (Nods) And certainly Lindy Geis did.

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And Lindy Geis is another one of those faculty that I got to know very, very early. Mae Carter hovered over

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everything and she was very good at getting funding for various Women's Studies activities, and for that course in particular.

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It was run through Continuing Education. It was done in the evenings and the various sessions didn't talk to one another all that much.

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It was sort of being, "This is this week" thing. "This is this week" putting together the exams for the students.

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It was a collection of questions that were isolated from one another. So it, I think it's fairly typical of

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the kinds of courses that universities were offering at that time. And I think one of the models of Women's Studies where you don't

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really endow a full-fledged department of Women's Studies is that there is that sort of module-like figuration that persists until maybe you

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have people who begin to have their own research spanning these disciplines a little bit more and sit down together regularly in

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faculty meetings for you to hash out what the courses are going to be like, and that kind of thing. But it was a good start and

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enthusiastic students, a more diverse set of students by age, I seem to recall, than we ever had in

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standard English department class. [ML] So in that early, the early years, what do you sense? What was your sense of support

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or lack thereof in terms of administration? [BKS] I think there was a heck of a lot of enthusiasm among people who were committed to Women's Studies.

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And they're generally the people who showed up supporting this course. I think we had very skeptical administrators. And I'm not sure what

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Ed Rosenberry's take was altogether. I admired him and I think he was somewhat supportive. I think when Helen Gouldner came along.

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I don't know whether there should be such that she was not enthusiastic, but Women's Studies at all.

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And I remember this meeting with her where a group of us went in and assured her, "This will teach itself out of existence. You don't have to worry about

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having this around, for too long." With our tongues in our cheeks the whole time. But we were willing to say that.

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And I think to some extent, the diffusion of Women's Studies in both directions has proven that not to be a total falsehood.

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Though I still really believe in having Women's and Gender Studies as departments. [ML] As do I. Can you tell me a little bit

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about sort of the efforts to consolidate Women's Studies beyond that single class? And what was some of the struggles to

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get it to actually be incorporated as a--? [BKS] Well, all along there had been courses and I think Jan D'Armond

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and Barbara Gates were certainly doing this before I had... I didn't have real faculty status until 1975,

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Assistant Professor status when the English department hired me. But there were Women in Lit courses in the English department.

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And I assume there was a Women in Psych with Lindy Geis. Though I'm making that up. And so there was more than just this core course being offered.

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And then we gradually get to the point where there were intro courses devised and those tended to be taught by one person.

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I realized that that was going to involve really getting up quite a different kind, of course, and I never did that.

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In fact, I think we tended to hire part-time people from the very beginning. Doing that kind of coursework. So there were 2 things going.

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And then I think one starts talking about, "Well, could we suggest a cluster of courses?" I don't know when University of Delaware started having minors. [ML] That is in 19--?

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Wait I do have that. I'm looking at the wrong paper. 1979, I believe. But that was the first course. I should know this. The minor doesn't actually

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come officially until later in my timeline, 1978. [BKS] Mm. (Nods) But then you do the route: minor, major, and so on. [ML] Right. And now we're doing a graduate certificate.

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How is it sort of split between part-time faculty, and tenured faculty in terms of vulnerability of doing Women's Studies at this time period?

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Because it seems to me that I've heard from a number of different people that they clearly should not focus their career on

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this path because it was a fad or something. So it's, I'm just curious about sort of, I mean you started out as part-time. Did you get negative feedback about

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the focus on Women's Studies or women's perspective? [BKS] I was told it would be a lot more secure to go into English than Women's Studies.

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That was the kind of advice. Nobody knew that it was going to last. I think it was that perilous. However, it was fascinating.

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And there were also, if you had a less than enthusiastic Chair, I mean, you were taking time away from

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your teaching within a department. I didn't have that many years when I didn't have an Assistant Professorship

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and doing Women's Studies. And I generally could do the Women in Lit, type of thing whenever I wanted to. Charles Boehner wasn't a fan,

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but he wasn't a problem. And... oh I remember! I started writing somewhat differently. My first book was Joyce and Feminism. And in the final chapter,

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I took off the distance between scholar and subject and talked about what it means to be a woman writing about

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a man who was perhaps not the greatest feminist in the world. And mine was a kind of historical approach of what feminism meant in his day and,

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and what forms it might have taken in his work. And I was told, "That's not scholarship anymore." And I did some articles where I would come up for a tenure-track review.

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And I remember being sought, sat down and said, "Oh, you were doing such wonderful historically-based research

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when you started your articles. And now look at this Emma Cleary, a proud young woman walking through the decaying city."

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Which was an article really on what the real life of a young woman as she was represented in a novel by Joyce would have been like.

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And that was about women, so it wasn't history. It was about everyday life, so it wasn't history. So there were vulnerabilities there.

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I have to think that the committees they put together and you know, we're not talking about many women in the English department.

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Jan D'Armond retired when I was hired. There was a group hired about my time. Gloria Hull was a little ahead of me. Barbara Gates was a little ahead of me.

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Elaine Safer was there, but that was it. So if you got a tenure-track, tenure committee, they weren't sitting on it.

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And I think was... Gloria and I became Full Professor and we were only the second and third in the history of the department.

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So when you came to things like having your scholarship judged, there was real prejudice. There was real advice in the other direction.

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So it was good to keep things going on a couple of tracks. You could point, "There's this guys." Or, you know,

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this is something that you can recognize. There were compromises, I think along the way. I should add that I was a candidate for

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the first Coordinator of Women's Studies and I did not get that job. And that was a perfectly good decision because Ellen Morgan, who got it,

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had done much more work, you know I was working on Joyce, that had to do with Women's Studies. So it was a good decision, but she was put in a terrible place.

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[ML] How so? [BKS] Okay. She had to earn tenure in English, though she was hired in Women's Studies. She had an office in a dormitory, which seemed oh

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so wonderfully, you know Women's Studies-ish. I should say she was enthusiastic about it, but nobody recognized her as part of the circle of offices on campus that way.

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And I worked really hard the time I stepped in. And it was a very vulnerable time for Women's Studies to get

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us into a real academic building. We were in a house that had a bathtub in the restroom. [ML] So is this 34 West Delaware Avenue?

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[BKS] Yes, it is. [ML] Which just happens to be the house that they have just recently given us 3 years ago,

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we are now back. [BKS] You're back! Well, you're in a healthier time to be there! Oh, my goodness! [ML] I remember reading the documents.

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It said, "In a decrepit old building off, sort of outside the perimeter of campus." [BKS] Yes. [ML] We're now in the perimeter of campus. We're right behind the student center. [BKS] Campus has enveloped you a little bit.

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[ML] And it's the same building. They have rehabilitated it a little. [BKS] Okay! I will have to look at that-- [ML] There is no bathtub. [BKS] -- to decide whether I think it's a good idea or not.

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I mean, after that time, Honors was located in little houses, but there was right across South College Avenue from everything else.

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And it is nice to be able to create your own somewhat different space. But to me it was ghettoizing. And the dorm was Warner Hall.

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It had been a women's dorm. I mean, real all these historical resonances with locating it there. She, after about 6 months,

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sat down with Charles Boehner, the Chair of the English department, and he had no idea of this arrangement. He hadn't remembered it.

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She was a lost person. [ML] Right. [BKS] And I don't quite know what happened, but I think she.. it was too much for her. Perhaps a nervous breakdown.

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And that was what we could bargain for, I suppose in those days. But I think that's a very bad idea

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and I don't think we'll ever put anybody in just that situation again because we filled the ranks with people who know what Women's Studies is.

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[ML] And so following Ellen, there was a search for another Coordinator? [BKS] Yes. And at that time, was that when I stepped in?

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No, we got Joyce Jennings after that, pretty much and without reforming things very much. And she was hired in Psych And are you able to

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reach her? Have you talked to her? [ML] I have not located her. [BKS] Right. Maybe he can. Yeah. She did go to the... to California. [Tom Scott off-camera] She moved to Europe with a man about 5 years ago.

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[BKS] We may have had an email for her, from her within the last few years. And I somewhere I have an email for Akasha, for Gloria. [ML] I would love to see that.

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[BKS] And that's what I have to dig for. [TS] She goes by Joyce Walstedt. [BKS] Yeah, Joyce Jennings Walstedt arrived and we did a lot with her.

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They had a daughter about the age of our oldest daughter. In fact, we vacationed on Martha's Vineyard with them once. [TS] In 2000? Or the 200th anniversary, I mean

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United States' 200th birthday in 1976. [BKS] I don't think so. We were in Cape Cod for that. But this was... [TS] Same trip.

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[BKS] I had always the idea that she had one eye on being in Psych and somewhat an eye on being in Women's Studies.

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And I think there were some... Emily Morgan and the committee that brought her in, I thought, got along very well.

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There was always just sort of a different agenda going on with Joyce. And I think there was some concern early on to the extent that she was really investing

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in Women's Studies. But again, she didn't have a very good setup. [ML] Right, so her conflict with Psychology or the focus of trying to juggle the both pretty much?

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[BKS] That's right, that's right. And in some ways it's the same problem. You ask somebody, and you're, you have to be a go-getter,

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and you're just new on a campus. We don't ask that of an Assistant Professor. So it was what we could negotiate for. And it really wasn't the right structure.

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So... and Joyce was still in that house by then. We had the house and that was supposed to be an improvement over Warner Hall.

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But I think... [ML] So you were part of the group of people that was sent in 1976 after Joyce departed-- [BKS] That's right. [ML] -- on this retreat. I wonder if you could talk about

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what that was all about, what sort of happened there? [BKS] Well, I think the retreat was an excellent idea and I don't

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remember whether it was 1 night or 2 nights or how long we were there. But Barbara Kelly in Phys Ed had us doing exercises in the morning.

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I mean, it was a faculty gathering such as I don't think any of us had ever seen. And I think maybe more things like that happen now.

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They certainly happen as options in National Women's Studies Association meetings and so on. But in a way, I think we were kind of

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inventing a new way to be a community. And lots of us knew each other because we'd been at all these committees and meetings and so on.

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But can we come up with an agenda from that? [ML] I have not seen one yet. [BKS] Still? I will dig. [ML] Maybe Maggie might have one.

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[BKS] Yeah. [ML] I will see her. [BKS] Yeah. Because it might be interesting to see how did

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we set up the discussion and that I really can't recall. But I remember sitting around in circles and just sort of sharing what we think went

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well and what didn't go so well. [ML] Did you sit on the floor occasionally? [BKS] All. We did [ML] Because I think I have, we have pictures of that. [BKS] Yes. And that, in part,

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that could have been the kind of relaxation exercises that Barbara Kelly devised. And I think there's

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enough stress for any faculty member. But, you know, it was interesting to share the fact that yes, in real life we do

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have these pressures and stresses. And this is how to negotiate with your department when they're not not quite supportive.

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I remember my own department at faculty meetings. At one point, we bought a vest set at the Japonesque store down here in Bethany,

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and when we'd go to a faculty meeting, we wore those so that we had this sense that okay, when she says that idea,

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I'm going to raise my hand and say, "Oh, that's a great idea, that such-and-such person had." Because you learned how

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to do the sorts of things that didn't naturally happen within other settings, I think by sharing.

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So I think it was a good thing personally for everybody to have a sense of what is it that we're really up against as we're

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juggling these two focuses in academe. But also what do we need to have there to have this program succeed? [ML] And so the objective of that retreat

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was to sort of figure out what to come at in order to move forward? [BKS] That's right. And that's when we decided that we would take somebody already

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with tenure already at the University, and we could do that then, because the numbers had grown. So this business of bringing

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a brand new Assistant Professor to run a program from the outside, bit the dust. And well, well so. But I think we

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also did some imagining ahead of minor and majors and what kind of regular gatherings we would have. I mean, we had

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wonderful parties in Women's Studies, I think, and bringing in people from all the disciplines. But there was,

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there still wasn't a core faculty. And we started having regular people teach Intro courses and of course, Jessica doing internships right about then.

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So and I think maybe they didn't have it immediately, but I think they were imagined at this stage. And that was,

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that was just really different. It's really Women's Studies. It really is beginning to develop something that is the discipline.

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The idea that we could have conferences and that there was this linkage of programs in the country I think was

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exciting and coming along. But I will dig and see if I can come up with anything from that. [ML] And so Women's Studies,

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that was the retreat was in 1976, and then the minor comes up in 1978. You became Coordinator in 1980? Is that correct? [BKS] I think I was Coordinator

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the next fall. [ML] After the retreat? [BKS] After the retreat. [ML] Okay. [BKS] And we kept working on what things would look like during that year.

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And then we moved into the new arrangement. So I think it was right after the retreat, probably. No, wait a minute.

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It couldn't. Because I was, I think I was newly an Associate Professor. Could I have gotten an Associate Professor? I was only hired in 1975, that means,

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yeah, whilst I was there for a number of years. So we have, We have Ellen Morgan.

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[ML] 1976. She sort of left early in 1976. Late 1975, early 1976. [BKS] Was it that early? [ML] I think so. [BKS] You have... [ML] Oh no.

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[BKS] It's later? [ML] She served 5 years. You're absolutely right. [BKS] So I was an Associate Professor and I know I got it. I got to Associate within 5 or 6 years.

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So 1980 would be when she left and I did it for a year. Yeah. [ML] And at that point what was the job of the Coordinator of Women's Studies?

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[BKS] I hired all of the people who taught the part-time courses. I reach out to people to teach more courses in departments.

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I did a newsletter which was a lot of fun. And I think that was the first that we had a newsletter. And you know I'd get design people. And then we could reach out in

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the community and advertise things that they were doing. So that took a fair amount of work. The office was a mess.

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Not only had, I think we had in the last year or 2 a dysfunctional head of Women's Studies and it was

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always just Coordinator, wasn't even Director. But the secretary had gone a little bit bonkers. So I hired a really

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wonderful woman and she was experienced in offices at UD. And I can't come up with her name now, but she and I worked to

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just organize files and, you know, put things back in order as part of the labor. We ran a little bit of a resource room and that was already there.

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And it was interesting. People would come in that you hadn't met who wanted to get resources in Women's Studies.

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So I think that was a service to the community and had some lasting value to it as well. We, I think, we got on a regular schedule of

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having an advisory board and I think there had always been some kind of an advisory board, but you just re-looking at everything.

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So it was a year of evolution. It was a year of hitting the administration to get more support and working

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with department Chairs to recognize, you know, you'll have a person stepping out in this function, and make sure it was supportive.

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[TS] I've got the keys to the place, if you want to leave before I get back. [BKS] Okay. Have a good match. [TS] Good to see you, Marie. [ML] Good luck on your game. [TS] Thank you. [BKS] They don't need it today. There's indoor tennis,

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which is climate-controlled, nice thing to do. [ML] So that period in 1980 to 1981 is when we have the sort of creation of a faculty Director as well,

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that you were working with? I don't remember who the first faculty Director would be. [BKS] I was doing that for that year. [ML] Okay. [BKS] And after that,

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I think it's Maggie Andersen who took over. [ML] I believe so. And at that time period, we're still dealing with no people having lines in Women's Studies.

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[BKS] Exactly. I think that took several more years. [ML] Because we didn't have until 1986 the 2 half-time faculty were hired. [BKS] That's right.

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[ML] Sue Cherrin and Kathy Turkel. [BKS] Are they still both there? [ML] They still are. [BKS] I thought so. [ML] They're approaching retirement. And we're all cringing when that happens.

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[BKS] Yeah. [ML] How do you think Women's Studies survived without any faculty lines in it? [BKS] With a lot of determined people to keep it going.

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[ML] We're talking about overtime right? [BKS] Yeah. Helen Gouldner really didn't believe in Women's Studies. You had to get lines out of a Dean.

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[ML] So everyone was pretty much doing above and beyond their required workload? [BKS] Well, we had money to hire part-time people to do the Intro things.

00:24:08.640 - 00:24:22.610

But that was about it. And I mean, if you wanted to be able to promise a consistent curriculum and that's still somewhat of a problem.

00:24:22.610 - 00:24:29.030

You have to make sure that the English department will release somebody every semester. I think we got into having

00:24:29.030 - 00:24:39.590

agreements like that along the way, but it was very much department dependent and some evolution of, some departments evolved

00:24:39.590 - 00:24:45.660

in disappointing ways. Nobody ever replaced Lindy Geis in Psychology. They never... Do they today?

00:24:45.660 - 00:25:00.490

[ML] No. [BKS] Never had anybody very interested in Women's Studies. And I've actually noticed that's a problem in San Diego State. The new faculty coming in, just are very much disciplinarily set.

00:25:00.490 - 00:25:07.760

Though I think we had a more welcoming climate the last time we hired somebody in the area of Psych and Women's Studies for her

00:25:07.760 - 00:25:16.760

than we did in previous times. But I'm talking about another institution now. But I think it's been also fascinating to be able to compare the 2 institutions

00:25:16.760 - 00:25:24.460

and what they have, and what they don't. San Diego State somehow got faculty lines from the beginning. [ML] Mm. Somehow.

00:25:24.460 - 00:25:34.190

[BKS] Well, yeah, another story, but... [ML] And in those, the early 1980s, were you working from moving from the minor to the major?

00:25:34.190 - 00:25:43.080

Or was that sort of on hold, sort of sub-rows, so to speak, until the administration changed, because we didn't get a major until the 1990s.

00:25:43.080 - 00:25:53.390

[BKS] Yeah, I think everybody had in mind we needed to work towards something coherent, but I'm not sure

00:25:53.390 - 00:25:59.400

when minors were allowed at Delaware. [ML] It was very, it was simultaneous to that. [BKS] Yeah. [ML] Or very early on.

00:25:59.400 - 00:26:05.680

[BKS] So we did it as soon as we could? [ML] Right, right. [BKS] And there would be a suggested cluster that, you know,

00:26:05.680 - 00:26:10.880

I did a lot of advising, even those that year I was sitting in. Students would come and say, "I'm really interested in this."

00:26:10.880 - 00:26:15.860

And then put together this would be a nice pattern of courses that you could go from here and there.

00:26:15.860 - 00:26:30.260

So it was informally in place. [ML] So there was a lot of student support for this? [BKS] Yeah. [ML] And interest? [BKS] Yeah. When you think about students' interest in

00:26:30.260 - 00:26:38.520

projects and taking initiative to do them, I don't have many. I can't, I wish I could come up with anecdotal material, but I can't.

00:26:38.520 - 00:26:52.130

[ML] Do you recall any particular obstacles that were thrown down in front of Women's Studies that had to be addressed? Trying to get a feel for this...

00:26:52.130 - 00:27:06.550

[BKS] Well, we kept trying to get a decent budget. [ML] A budget. Period. [BKS] Yeah, you know, beyond paperclips and staplers. And yeah, everything was a struggle.

00:27:06.550 - 00:27:15.720

They did do a... When we got to move into... it would... it was the old Art History slide library. [ML] Smith Hall?

00:27:15.910 - 00:27:24.290

[BKS] And over time, you know, little office spaces were created within that and I saw that evolve to

00:27:24.290 - 00:27:35.450

a better space over time. It was a big hollow shell at first. So you could ask for little things like that. And every time you brought in

00:27:35.450 - 00:27:48.810

an interim or new faculty person to be Coordinator of Women's Studies. You could try to boost this or that, or make sure that as new technologies came in,

00:27:48.810 - 00:28:02.000

Women's Studies followed at pace. But it was always a struggle. [ML] So in terms of, currently the situation in Women's Studies,

00:28:02.000 - 00:28:10.040

I've given this sort of history of 40 plus years now, moving into 40 years. What do you see as sort of the

00:28:10.040 - 00:28:21.410

strengths of the field? [BKS] Oh goodness! Of course, it has evolved, I suppose. And I don't think any phase

00:28:21.410 - 00:28:28.230

because there's a new one totally disappears. But I mean, there's a classic thing of talking about recuperative work.

00:28:28.230 - 00:28:40.010

We had all of this wonderful history of women: women who had achieved, women who had written,

00:28:40.010 - 00:28:45.740

that wasn't well organized and much of it wasn't taught. I mean, whole eras of the novel that nobody

00:28:45.740 - 00:28:54.030

paid attention to because they weren't "academic" enough. So I think a lot of early courses basically did that.

00:28:54.030 - 00:29:08.030

There's critique. When you think about how scientific method claims to be objective, and this is Sandra Harding's work, you realize, maybe it's not asking

00:29:08.030 - 00:29:18.410

all the questions it might ask. It's kind of interesting to see these objective people taking gender stereotypes and project them

00:29:18.410 - 00:29:27.290

upon subjects and animals and all those sorts of things. So the sense that how do we get around to asking

00:29:27.290 - 00:29:36.080

the right questions and what's wrong with methodology is probably the next thing, but it can never go away. And nor can the recuperative work.

00:29:36.080 - 00:29:46.130

And then I think the sense of understanding the standpoint from which you observe the world. I certainly am very limited with

00:29:46.130 - 00:29:54.140

the standpoint I have lived and can experience. We had over-generalization about who women were. I'm not so in favor of first-wave,

00:29:54.140 - 00:30:02.180

second-wave, third-wave, and I think that's disappearing as a concept of things. But the capacity to listen to standpoints,

00:30:02.180 - 00:30:10.090

viewpoints that are not your own. And then to work out ways of collaborating transnationally, across race,

00:30:10.090 - 00:30:19.310

across sexualities and so on is interesting. Sexuality Studies. Now, if you've got the Gender appended to Women's Studies.

00:30:19.310 - 00:30:29.570

We need far more than Gender, of course, but it's an invitation to blur even categories of biology, and make things much more transformable

00:30:29.570 - 00:30:39.000

and malleable, and porous in terms of the ways the differences are made and how destructive they can be.

00:30:39.000 - 00:30:50.420

The study of dynamics of power, which cuts across some other categories. And intersectionality is, I think, one of the key words today

00:30:50.420 - 00:31:02.360

in Women's Studies Understanding, and I sometimes consider this too negative a way, but the idea that oppressions

00:31:02.360 - 00:31:11.150

can configure in different ways with different individuals. And that that's a very complicated picture to try and appreciate.

00:31:11.150 - 00:31:24.530

But I think that's kind of an evolution. [ML] I mean, I'm struck by that phrase you used earlier about sort of reassuring Dean Gouldner

00:31:24.530 - 00:31:35.360

that it would just sort of work itself out and sort of fade away, once we incorporated women into the field. And yeah, that's clearly not happening.

00:31:35.360 - 00:31:49.280

[BKS] Right. Well, we no longer want to go off again into separate fields at all. [ML] So given your work in English, why do you think you were so

00:31:49.280 - 00:31:58.310

committed to Women's Studies? Or did you not even see them as separate? [BKS] Oh, I never saw them as separate. Everything I did really,

00:31:58.310 - 00:32:03.710

I mean, my first book became Joyce and Feminism. Everything I've done has been permeated with feminism.

00:32:03.710 - 00:32:11.630

I've just, in fact, its publication date is the 30th of June, published in the hollow of the wave. "Virginia Woolf and Modernist Uses of Nature."

00:32:12.710 - 00:32:23.430

And it's undergirded with eco-feminist theory. So it served me-- [ML] Those seem intertwined. [BKS] It's always been intertwined and in everything that I've done.

00:32:23.430 - 00:32:31.670

And I think it always will be because it trained me to ask questions in a different way. [ML] And what do you think have been the most

00:32:31.670 - 00:32:45.400

significant contributions of Women's Studies? [BKS] Empowering women. Sending young women out into the world who are absolutely changing it.

00:32:45.400 - 00:32:54.300

And young men too. I know Delaware has some male majors. We certainly do at San Diego State. [ML] That's the number 1 thing, our students say,

00:32:54.300 - 00:33:01.480

is that "It gave me a voice." [BKS] Yes. [ML] I just taught our capstone class, and that was exactly half of them are sort of

00:33:01.480 - 00:33:11.380

in reflecting about their own education. That's what they say, as well. [BKS] Yes. I think something I've come to appreciate over time, and maybe it's because I'm among people

00:33:11.380 - 00:33:19.190

who really are interested in it, is feminist pedagogy. It utterly changes the way you teach. And universities...

00:33:19.190 - 00:33:33.380

And I've been very scholarship-related. I love doing scholarship and it's... But the teaching is right up there. And it changes you as a teacher too.

00:33:33.380 - 00:33:46.440

There's a lot in it for being in it. [ML] So what do you think still needs to be addressed in this field or in the academic world related to women and Women's Studies?

00:33:46.570 - 00:33:57.840

[BKS] I worry that, I think the identity politics era is passing. I think it was bad for Women's Studies, although I think it did good work.

00:33:57.840 - 00:34:03.770

If that can be said in the same breath. But you still have, you sit down in a meeting. You know what question

00:34:03.770 - 00:34:11.180

somebody's going to ask. And they all have to do with this sub-area of Women's Studies. And just learning to have

00:34:11.180 - 00:34:23.600

really good conversations within Women's Studies. I mean NWSA has had horrible fights and I've seen an angle on that,

00:34:23.600 - 00:34:35.450

especially from San Diego State, that I think is very painful. So that is a real challenge. How do we learn to work amongst

00:34:35.450 - 00:34:47.110

ourselves without attacking ourselves? In dangerous ways. I'm sorry I have to say that. [ML] No, it's a reality. [BKS] It is a reality. And then I think it's too easy to say,

00:34:47.110 - 00:34:58.070

"Oh, the university's funding is way down. Why don't we just glom all these things together that aren't real disciplines. So we'll have all the interdisciplines or

00:34:58.070 - 00:35:05.270

all the ethnics and women become an ethnic group in that one." And so I am very worried about the economic future

00:35:05.270 - 00:35:13.130

of universities in general, the corporatization of universities. Because if anybody has an answer for that, it's apt to come from programs like

00:35:13.130 - 00:35:22.670

Women's Studies and other ones as well. The whole field of university education is in threat. Doesn't necessarily want to

00:35:22.670 - 00:35:29.660

stay the way it's been. But how that evolves in the coming years is critical. [ML] And what has been your response to

00:35:29.660 - 00:35:42.290

critics who say Women's Studies isn't a serious field? [BKS] "That's ridiculous." (Laughs) "Would you like to see all of the things it is?" That I've accomplished and

00:35:42.290 - 00:35:57.470

the differences that it has made in lives. If serious is esoteric aspects of scholarly work, that isn't my definition of serious.

00:35:57.470 - 00:36:06.530

Or it's only one definition of serious. [ML] You touched on a little bit, the fact that a number of Women's Studies programs, and departments are in

00:36:06.530 - 00:36:12.730

fact being closed down. Sort of we've seen several on the East Coast that have just been shut down, dismantled,

00:36:12.730 - 00:36:19.790

not even merged into something else, but just, "By the way, you're not getting a major in this because we just shut down this program."

00:36:19.790 - 00:36:28.880

I wonder if you would speak to why you think Delaware has lasted this 40 years and now we just moved to a department and sort of are on,

00:36:28.880 - 00:36:36.640

moving on to potentially graduate work. So what do you think are some of-- [BKS] Oh you've got a track record! So did San Diego State,

00:36:36.640 - 00:36:45.230

hundreds of students flocking in, students doing further work and maybe they'd end up going into Women's Studies for a graduate degree. But heck,

00:36:45.230 - 00:36:53.150

they changed the degree that they're going into by having that kind of a background. You don't close down a program that currently has

00:36:53.150 - 00:37:09.570

95 majors and 102 minors. I don't know what Delaware has at the moment. And but I think some of the closings probably do have track records,

00:37:09.570 - 00:37:18.710

so I don't know what to do about that. But I do think Delaware has survived because it's got a critical mass of devoted faculty,

00:37:18.710 - 00:37:28.740

who have produced scholarship, because Delaware certainly demands that, and of students who would vouch for it and still keep coming in droves.

00:37:28.740 - 00:37:38.080

[ML] So what do you think about this transition from Women's Studies to Women and Gender Studies? Or to Gender Studies?

00:37:38.080 - 00:37:46.190

[BKS] I'm neutral on that. San Diego State will probably never take that on, because it was the first Women's Studies department

00:37:46.190 - 00:37:56.570

and cosmos and it was a Women's Studies department. I think there are concerns that when you tack on the gender,

00:37:56.570 - 00:38:05.570

it waters down the woman aspect and women's lives experiences in the enabling of that, I think is at the very core

00:38:05.570 - 00:38:14.180

of what department, I hope Delaware continues to have. Gender is in the title of a lot of my work.

00:38:14.180 - 00:38:21.120

It's a concept I really like to work with. And by it being gender, men don't take over.

00:38:21.120 - 00:38:32.810

But I think I kind of understand binary systems and false dichotomies, and the theory behind gender, and the evolving sensitivity to what gender is

00:38:32.810 - 00:38:50.290

and complication of what it is, is well worth studying alongside Women's Studies. [ML] So what memories do you have of Women's Studies at Delaware that you want to share?

00:38:50.290 - 00:39:06.170

[BKS] The very most creative and dedicated students who have gone on to PhDs or to becoming faculty members in other places, some of whom still stay in touch.

00:39:06.170 - 00:39:14.790

Most profoundly the sense of sistership with other faculty members who were there in the long slog from

00:39:14.790 - 00:39:30.940

part-time person to Full Professor, The excitement of having a humming along program. And that I'll always remember

00:39:30.940 - 00:39:39.660

that retreat because you knew that the things were going to be different. I mean, there are moments that you say, "Okay,

00:39:39.660 - 00:39:46.480

this is the watershed. This was trying to happen, this is going to happen." And we weren't even assured of anything at that point.

00:39:46.480 - 00:39:53.740

We just knew that I think there were enough people intellectualizing, working hard on the problem that it was going to

00:39:53.740 - 00:40:02.800

go some place that it was going to survive. But I think it's Delaware is a conservative place. It took far too long.

00:40:02.800 - 00:40:12.590

I couldn't believe they still didn't have a major when I left. I mean, our department but the major took too long as well.

00:40:12.590 - 00:40:21.740

[ML] Yeah, the major was in 1993. [BKS] Yeah. Now the major was there. But the department status really funny and I think they didn't want

00:40:21.740 - 00:40:36.650

to give department status any interdiscipline. I think that was the official position on that. [ML] And it might reflect different administrative personalities, who felt a department was not

00:40:36.650 - 00:40:44.870

the way to go in order to maintain support in the University. [BKS] It's also, I think, different institutions have different attitudes toward how do you

00:40:44.870 - 00:40:51.440

distinguish major from department. Because most departments had one major. But now I've gone to a university where one department may

00:40:51.440 - 00:41:00.690

have a number of different majors associated with it. And maybe if that had been the format, it would have been a little bit different in its evolution.

00:41:01.930 - 00:41:16.520

But I think it's lucky when you get a really supportive dean. [ML] Is there anything else that you want to share with us? [BKS] I love staying connected with Delaware.

00:41:16.520 - 00:41:25.370

And, in fact, in a longer-term retirement situation, it's quite likely that we'll be back on the East Coast. So I want to be kept

00:41:25.370 - 00:41:33.630

abreast of things and I'm delighted you're having this series of events with the 40th. We had a tremendous amount of fun.

00:41:33.630 - 00:41:42.540

Use it to raise some grant money. Not much. You know, nice little $40,000 grant came in from a woman who's

00:41:42.540 - 00:41:51.320

supported Women's Studies, in one way or another over the years. I do think it's worth making a point of anniversaries because media

00:41:51.320 - 00:42:00.110

sometimes picks it up. We had everybody around San Diego saying, "Oh, we're the oldest Women's Studies department." And they'd never been very aware of it.

00:42:00.110 - 00:42:09.020

But it got said enough, the message got out enough. And I think in that there's the possibility of

00:42:09.020 - 00:42:24.100

collecting kind of testimonials, little short things for the, the webpage. We had enthusiastic people in the kind of publicity arm of our university.

00:42:24.100 - 00:42:33.140

You know, we were the banner across the webpage on a certain day and had a lot of fine collecting of old images for endless slideshows at

00:42:33.140 - 00:42:41.180

events and that kind of thing. I'm sure you thought about a lot of these things. [ML] We're working on it. [BKS] But to celebrate, and if there's some way I can help celebrate,

00:42:41.180 - 00:42:49.840

I want to stay involved because it's a, it's a real huge source of pride and investment. [ML] So what would your testimony be

00:42:49.840 - 00:43:01.470

for the Women's Studies program? [BKS] What would my testimony be? I evolved with Women's Studies, and I think it's a positive evolution for me.

00:43:01.470 - 00:43:04.470

[ML] Thank you. [BKS] Okay.