00:00:01.540 - 00:00:12.180

John Williams: ... noon when delivered and I told them, and of course, their report, that they can alert their reporter and he can JW: tell them when it was delivered. Frederick Lauter: Uh huh

00:00:12.180 - 00:00:23.730

JW: I, well we'll say it made page 46. [FL laughing] I don't know what, but it was a way back, just a little document and I really think they pitied me,

00:00:23.730 - 00:00:34.560

because it was a rather strong statement JW: I was making. FL: Yeah, yeah JW: And I can see JW: the questions in their mind. Does JW: he know what he's talking about? FL: Yeah, everybody's JW: And of course

00:00:34.560 - 00:00:42.810

JW: the front page was taken up with MacArthur FL: Right, right JW: And the rest of the press, I don't think they paid any attention to it at all. FL: Now after JW: Very little.

00:00:42.810 - 00:00:55.070

FL: After the first time when you, when you began to get a national reputation, did, did more of the senators listen to you, you know, there were always as I

00:00:55.070 - 00:01:07.220

read the, as I read the Congressional Record, Senator Kem came in every once and a while, FL: Senator Langer would comment JW: Well, yes JW: as it got along FL: There are a few,

00:01:07.220 - 00:01:13.770

FL: there are a few senators that would compliment you or ask questions or anything like that, but, but your, but normally

00:01:13.770 - 00:01:21.340

your statements did not get a big, I mean, there weren't hundreds, there weren't 30 or 40, 50 senators arguing with

00:01:21.340 - 00:01:32.620

FL: you or anything like that? JW: No, because FL: Probably that wouldn't happen anyway. JW: No, that wouldn't happen because I was documenting a case each time. And you as a member of

00:01:32.620 - 00:01:40.810

the Senate, all you knew what I was saying now you didn't know how to ask a JW: question, you know, you can't ask FL: Right JW: an intelligent question, FL: Right

00:01:40.810 - 00:01:47.030

JW: unless you know something about what you're talking about. FL: And the senators did not have FL: copies of the speech while you were making it, did they? JW: No

00:01:47.030 - 00:01:54.700

FL: No. I wanted to be sure of that. JW: No. They could, if there was extra JW: speeches in the gallery, FL: Yeah JW: and they could send up and

00:01:54.700 - 00:02:02.600

get one I suppose, from what was run off. But if they wanted, and I doubt if they wanted that much, but, no, I didn't,

00:02:02.600 - 00:02:14.960

and there's now no press release made, JW: it was just cold speech. FL: Right JW: What appeared in the Record is what was JW: released. FL: Uh huh. Did more, when you, when you made

00:02:14.960 - 00:02:23.450

FL: your speeches, did, were FL: most of the senators there after a while, or was it JW: No, not JW: most of them, FL: No JW: but you have an audience after that. JW: Not after the first one,

00:02:23.450 - 00:02:34.660

JW: but after the first few. FL: Yeah JW: And then, even then, it didn't, it didn't really catch fire until they

00:02:34.660 - 00:02:45.020

moved into the courts. And of course, they began to get indictments, and then, created more interest. JW: Then the courts began getting convictions, FL: Right

00:02:45.020 - 00:02:53.060

JW: Most of them appealed to the Supreme Court, JW: where they were sustained. FL: Right JW: And then then began to question, he must have something in, and

00:02:53.060 - 00:03:03.410

JW: he's getting it from somewhere. FL: Right JW: And, I tried very hard, I was determined that it wouldn't use one unless it would be

00:03:03.410 - 00:03:16.670

documented. And they were proving [it], and so it just got to be each time, a little curiosity, JW: what, what's he going to say today? FL: Uh huh, right. JW: But I, didn't it didn't make

00:03:16.670 - 00:03:31.910

any difference, but I never used it as saying it on, that he's political or anything else. In fact, some of the top, uh, I won't name, name him, but one of the very

00:03:31.910 - 00:03:40.980

top officials that was done, boasted of the fact that he was a strong member of the Democratic Party. But he went in as an appointee,

00:03:40.980 - 00:03:49.560

under a president, a Republican president, JW: as a Republican. FL: Uh huh JW: And he changed it sometime [...], JW: so that's what I'm saying. FL: Yeah.

00:03:49.560 - 00:03:55.460

FL: Yeah. They're, they're, they're party loyalty is FL: only as strong as their pocketbook. JW: And, and JW: I would say that if he

00:03:55.460 - 00:04:05.340

had not been picked up until Eisenhower got in years later, I expect he'd been changed back to a JW: Republican by that time. FL: Right JW: They just, of course you don't

00:04:05.340 - 00:04:15.770

JW: allow states [you] don't register you didn't here then at that time. No, it wasn't done on that basis. If it had it would have

00:04:15.770 - 00:04:23.310

failed before it ever got started. FL: Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to ask you,

00:04:23.310 - 00:04:32.510

although I should be able to get that information somewhere else too, and I expect to. I'd like to ask about the relationship,

00:04:32.510 - 00:04:44.860

the connection between your work and the House committees and the courts. For example, there I think there are two, there's the King,

00:04:44.860 - 00:04:53.120

Representative Cecil King, from California had a committee that, and I hadn't been able, I've not had the time yet to track this down,

00:04:53.120 - 00:05:02.360

but he was operating FL: almost simultaneously with you, was he? JW: He was, JW: he was from New Jersey as I recall. He had a committee,

00:05:02.360 - 00:05:15.020

and he was investigating the, well, corruption, mismanagement, and so forth. I had no connection with that committee. FL: Yeah, you,

00:05:15.020 - 00:05:22.460

that's what I wanted to find out. You had no connection with it yourself and his committee had not been set up to

00:05:22.460 - 00:05:33.050

FL: be a House version of what we're doing. JW: No, it was operating, as I JW: recall, FL: Completely separate JW: right before I ever started. JW: They were doing just routine housekeeping job, ya know,

00:05:33.050 - 00:05:42.600

JW: don't mean they weren't doing a good job. FL: Yeah JW: But this information came to me and I moved in on it, and when I had it I went to the floor. Now, later

00:05:42.600 - 00:05:50.190

FL: But then every once a while it sounds as if, things that I read, it sounds as if they are kind of either they're duplicating the committee,

00:05:50.190 - 00:05:56.200

the King committee is duplicating what you're... Actually there are two, I'm, I'm, I'm not, I'm confused about this right now.

00:05:56.200 - 00:06:05.540

There's a King committee and there's a Kean, K-E-A-N committee JW: Seems to me it was K-E-A-N, instead of the Kin,g or maybe King had been a member

00:06:05.540 - 00:06:14.060

JW: of it, started first, or something. FL: I think King FL: Yeah, I think King is first, and then Kean JW: maybe he wasn't then, and then a later Kean. FL: But in other words, neither one of

00:06:14.060 - 00:06:21.980

those committees was in response to anything that you FL: had done? JW: No FL: No JW: Except in this way. As I started, now I know

00:06:21.980 - 00:06:36.170

after the St. Louis case, they were checking for general mismanagement, JW: and corruption. FL: This was a general committee, a general oversight, governmental oversight JW: General committee and the, of the JW: general oversight. When I made

00:06:36.170 - 00:06:45.950

my statement on St. Louis, was the first one. It was a farfetched statement, if you didn't know what you're talking about.

00:06:45.950 - 00:06:57.260

You've got to, you got to admit that. I mean that, JW: the other. FL: Yeah JW: And naturally, JW: they were wondering too, is it or isn't it. And they called Mr. Finnegan,

00:06:57.260 - 00:07:05.330

and they called some of these others in, and of course they denied it, a lot of it. But in the course of the denial, as they called it in and

00:07:05.330 - 00:07:13.460

began holding hearings, it really set it up. FL: Right. JW: Ya know, because FL: They put their foot in their,

00:07:13.460 - 00:07:23.610

FL: or they put their neck in the noose. JW: Yes. They subpoenaed these men, I suppose subpoenaed them, called them in, and it more or less

00:07:24.520 - 00:07:34.790

documented what I had said was going on. And of course from then, they weren't necessarily investigating me or anything else, but I had

00:07:34.790 - 00:07:45.140

made serious charges about, a, JW: loose management and an office. FL: Right JW: It, naturally, came under their jurisdiction. FL: Uh huh JW: They didn't need an order to look at it.

00:07:45.140 - 00:07:54.280

FL: But you did not, you did not directly work FL: with JW: No, I didn't call FL: You did not feed material FL: to them nor they feed material to you JW: No, I did not. FL: or anything like that? JW: No, neither one.

00:07:54.280 - 00:08:04.970

JW: I knew them, talked to them and, but, what they got, any questions, from what I had to say about it was in the Congressional Record.

00:08:04.970 - 00:08:19.070

FL: Right JW: All they had to do was take it and ask, did you FL: Did you JW: did you do this or FL: did you do what Senator William's said you did? Yeah. FL: Now, second thing is the same kind of thing. Just for the record, what, what was your

00:08:19.070 - 00:08:28.700

relationship to the courts? This I'm not clear on this, quite frankly, in my own mind. Obviously, you, you have no court p-

00:08:28.700 - 00:08:35.210

I mean, as a senator you have no court power regarding JW: It's a separate division of the JW: government, none at all. FL: And

00:08:35.210 - 00:08:46.130

JW: And, once I put it in the Record, it was automatically referred to the courts, JW: they get copies of that. FL: Yeah. But who, who FL: gets a court case started?

00:08:46.130 - 00:08:57.230

FL: I mean the, the Justice Department, JW: The court... the Justice Department FL: the Justice Department has to pick up, in other words, you make the speech, and particularly under the,

00:08:57.230 - 00:09:06.210

under the administration of a Democrat, ya know under a Democratic administration, you as a Republican senator make a speech, they, they are, they don't

00:09:06.210 - 00:09:14.210

actually have to do anything with that, do they? JW: No JW: but public opinion, FL: Public opinion JW: Now, when I made a speech about St. Louis,

00:09:14.210 - 00:09:24.140

it got such a broad headlines down in the Post-Dispatch, that naturally the United States Attorney in St. Louis had to look into it, is this a bunch of lies

00:09:24.140 - 00:09:31.250

or is it true or you know, FL: Otherwise, it's JW: Something comes up here, it's now public opinion FL: Yeah FL: Otherwise his reputation would have been JW: Ruined FL: ruined down there in St. Louis

00:09:31.250 - 00:09:43.850

JW: And he looked into it, called a grand jury, they looked into it, come back and said nothing to it. JW: That's when I came out and said you didn't do the job. FL: That's right. FL: That's Judge Moore's opinion, ya know, JW: Yes

00:09:43.850 - 00:09:50.940

FL: [and he called...] JW: And he convened, JW: I convinced him that they hadn't done the job. Now, I did send to Judge Moore

00:09:50.940 - 00:10:01.060

more material, as the judge, FL: Right JW: you know, what I had. And of course JW: he had the Record, and I talked to him a time or two,

00:10:01.060 - 00:10:09.810

but he convened a grand jury over in Omaha, and that's where the indictments presents. I don't understand courts. FL: Yeah

00:10:09.810 - 00:10:17.900

FL: Alright. Now, let me just, I don't either, JW: But we're supposed to stay out of the courts. FL: Yeah. Yeah. JW: Now FL: But, but there, in other words,

00:10:17.900 - 00:10:26.800

you have nothing at all to do with the House committees, FL: King and Kean, JW: No FL: but with the courts, you, FL: you actually did on

00:10:26.800 - 00:10:37.050

at least one occasion now, with Judge Moore, you did actually talk to the judge JW: Only when the judge talked to me. FL: He contacted you? JW: See,

00:10:37.050 - 00:10:50.220

FL: And you provided him with information on FL: his request? JW: Well, the grand jury JW: was, first grand jury was JW: in his court. FL: Right. JW: They exonerated him.

00:10:50.220 - 00:10:58.030

FL: Right. Right. JW: I came back and made a rather serious charge that the evidence had not been presented,

00:10:58.030 - 00:11:06.470

to them, and I thought that was a whitewash. JW: I made a rather strong statement, because I said FL: Right JW: the documents that are available there, to

00:11:06.470 - 00:11:17.210

the Department of Justice, would bring convictions. JW: That's a strong statement FL: Yeah. In effect, you're saying FL: that the, that as it turned out, FL: you were right to JW: I'm just saying that

00:11:17.210 - 00:11:27.620

JW: [George] didn't do the job. FL: [George Watson] and Greg Watson didn't FL: do his job. JW: Yes, that was what I was saying. FL: Yeah JW: And out of that, the judge very properly, because there's a division

00:11:27.620 - 00:11:37.100

JW: between Judiciary and the other, FL: Right JW: but he very properly had a right to ask me just how JW: confident are you, FL: Right

00:11:37.100 - 00:11:49.390

JW: and would you make your documents available JW: to the court. FL: Right JW: You know, in other words, put up

00:11:49.390 - 00:11:58.460

JW: or shut up. FL: Right. JW: I mean it was, it was a proper question, [FL laughing] and I told him I would be glad to cooperate. But I could not go down to the court, did not

00:11:58.460 - 00:12:07.670

do anything and I don't know, I never met Judge Morris I don't think in my life. FL: And you never, never throughout the entire IRS investigation

00:12:07.670 - 00:12:18.080

from '47 with the early , '48, with the early one, up through 1956, you never actually appeared in a court, JW: No never FL: on any of these cases,

00:12:18.080 - 00:12:29.660

FL: and except for providing information, you had no other contact with the, FL: with the courts in any way? JW: No FL: No JW: No, I don't recall any. I don't recall

00:12:29.660 - 00:12:40.280

JW: that one, and I once more... FL: And you didn't... Oh, go ahead JW: once more say that JW: I didn't have contact with the courts, or the Department of Justice, at some other time because if

00:12:40.280 - 00:12:49.450

they called, ya know, if I was making charges, they came to, if the Department of Justice, State, well, I mean, it would be a federal, U.S. Attorney,

00:12:49.450 - 00:13:01.520

FL: Right. JW: but if at any time JW: they come back and now, what do you got to back this up? I don't say that I was legally bound to

00:13:01.520 - 00:13:11.510

furnish it, but I was morally bound FL: Right JW: to show them what I had. FL: Yeah JW: Ya know FL: And you would have done that JW: Oh yeah FL: and you would have done that anyway JW: would have done it, and yeah, if it wasn't

00:13:11.510 - 00:13:20.080

JW: in cooperation, I just remember that specific one. But when you make a charge, I don't care if it was in

00:13:20.080 - 00:13:28.850

California, the U.S. Attorney in that area, if it was a serious charge, gets to public officials, these are JW: public officials I was talking about. FL: Yeah

00:13:28.850 - 00:13:40.600

FL: But that's why I wanted to check on JW: And he, if somebody brings a charge against the Director of Internal Revenue in Wilmington today, comparable to what I was saying,

00:13:40.600 - 00:13:51.100

FL: Right JW: public opinion JW: would demand, first place, the U.S. Attorney is more likely to do it anyway, but it would demand, what's going on?

00:13:51.100 - 00:14:01.310

FL: Yeah JW: You know, FL: And, and now let me just JW: I mean it's automatic FL: let me be sure I understand it and yeah, that's what I wanted, in other words, in each, each of

00:14:01.310 - 00:14:11.990

these malefactors that were brought to justice, were, that is you you never, you don't have the power,

00:14:11.990 - 00:14:21.680

I mean, you never actually FL: instigated a court case yourself? JW: No FL: You did not do that JW: Maybe what I said instigated a court case FL: Yeah what you said did, FL: but you never, you never, I don't

00:14:21.680 - 00:14:29.450

recall you ever even calling FL: for a court that you JW: No FL: just said this is what's going on and what are we going to do about it. JW: No, the nearest I come

00:14:29.450 - 00:14:41.730

was when, when they exonerated all those involved down there, I said that either they hadn't JW: presented it or there was a whitewash, in other words FL: Right

00:14:41.730 - 00:14:52.570

JW: I was convinced I was right. FL: So then JW: And I knew that I had to back up that case. FL: Yeah JW: So I went, put a strong on the fact that it hadn't been presented.

00:14:52.570 - 00:15:08.030

And, as I mentioned, the Attorney General was Howard McGrath, and of course he was familiar too from the press accounts and all, JW: and I said that they hadn't done the job down there. FL: Right

00:15:08.030 - 00:15:19.440

JW: Ya know, there was something, course I was gambling on the fact that a grand jury, whoever it is, whoever's pulled, JW: they're just ordinary citizens, FL: Right

00:15:19.440 - 00:15:28.540

JW: and you got to trust them. And I wasn't, I wasn't criticizing the grand jury, but they can't indict somebody JW: if you don't give it to them. FL: Yeah, that's right.

00:15:28.540 - 00:15:38.330

JW: And he wanted me to go and arrange an appointment with Greg Watson to come down to the office. Can we set it up?

00:15:38.330 - 00:15:47.330

FL: And this was McGrath that asked you to call [...] JW: He was the Attorney General, J:W I knew him, he served in the Senate before he was Attorney General. And he called up and he

00:15:47.330 - 00:15:54.450

said, he didn't say are you lying or is true, but he said I'd like for you to, he said I read it, I'm concerned,

00:15:54.450 - 00:16:02.870

and I'd like for to send down, Mr. Watson's, I think he was going be in Washington anyway, but he'd got him there, he could you know,

00:16:02.870 - 00:16:10.740

FL: Right JW: and he sent down two or JW: three other officials of the Department of Justice with him to the office.

00:16:10.740 - 00:16:18.440

And he said they will have somebody else to see just, in other words, JW: what you're doing. FL: Right FL: They came to your office or

00:16:18.440 - 00:16:27.750

FL: you came to McGrath's office? JW: No, they came to my office. FL: They came to your office. JW: And it was FL: Not McGrath himself? JW: No, no, he sent FL: Watson, FL: and two or three of his people in

00:16:27.750 - 00:16:36.170

JW: Yes. I've got their names somewhere, but anyway, they were JW: 2 or 3 of his assistants, FL: Right JW: come down to just see what happened,

00:16:36.170 - 00:16:46.610

and, knowing that it was, I had arranged to have a member of the staff of the Finance Committee sit at the meeting,

00:16:46.610 - 00:16:58.500

JW: just as they were bringing theirs. FL: Right JW: I mentioned it to Jim Kem, who's JW: the senator from Missouri, FL: Right JW: and to Schoeppel, who was Kansas, right there by it.

00:16:58.530 - 00:17:07.840

FL: Were they, were they in the meeting with you? JW: They were all at this meeting, and FL: Senator Kem and Senator Schoeppel? JW: Schoeppel FL: Okay JW: And a girl from the office,

00:17:07.840 - 00:17:22.040

JW: secretary was there, and... Ms. Lenhart FL: Eleanor. Yeah, okay JW: And they were are all there. And in the course of it, I outlined, how far are you going?

00:17:22.040 - 00:17:41.130

Yes, he presented it all and I outlined I, I deliberately mixed up the case. I used the actual payments you might say or improper development,

00:17:41.130 - 00:17:53.290

but I put the wrong names to 'em. Giotto, did this. Did he make this payoff or donation? Another man, did he make this, and was

00:17:53.290 - 00:18:06.190

all of this presented, you know, to.. and then the grand jury, if they turned it down, didn't believe it, alright, you know, but I said JW: was it all registered, every bit of it? FL: Alright JW: And after we got all through and I

00:18:06.190 - 00:18:15.340

was proceeding on the basis that he JW: was getting away with telling me he'd done it all. FL: Right JW: And I said, Are you sure you did it or did you just tell, put it in a peach basket

00:18:15.340 - 00:18:22.630

and tell somebody else do it? He said No, I did it myself. He said I I were there. And I said, Then you're

00:18:22.630 - 00:18:37.270

thoroughly familiar with the case? He said yes. I said, Alright. [FL laughing] Every case that I have referred to has an improper step was taken, that's correct.

00:18:37.270 - 00:18:48.730

But I deliberately mismatched all names, references, and cases, and companies and everybody else... everything's mixed up. [FL laughing in background] JW: None of what I said is as it is. FL: Uh huh

00:18:48.730 - 00:18:56.730

JW: I said straighten it out. FL: Uh huh JW: He didn't know as much about straightening it out as you would FL: Yeah JW: and he stuttered and stammered.

00:18:56.730 - 00:19:06.300

JW: And I know what the other two men went back and reported to the Attorney General, that he made a complete monkey JW: of himself. FL: Yeah JW: And it

00:19:06.300 - 00:19:17.150

wasn't, and that's when FL: Didn't you or Eleanor tell me once that he, that he got, he got ripped into right there on the spot by, I mean

00:19:17.150 - 00:19:27.070

I don't know if it was Kem or Schoeppel, or JW: Oh Senator Kem was JW: very FL: Senator Kem was JW: was most indignant FW: Senator Kem gave it to him with both barrels. JW: He'd known him as a man before, and now he was, he was

00:19:27.070 - 00:19:36.950

very strong, because, this case had just been presented a couple of weeks sooner JW: and he should have known something FL: Yeah JW: he didn't know anything about it. FL: Yeah JW: And it was

00:19:36.950 - 00:19:49.300

JW: obvious and all of them, and even to the Department of Justice, they couldn't help but get it. And McGrath later

00:19:49.300 - 00:20:00.590

called me and reported back, and Judge Moore was going to reconvene another grand jury. JW: And he said, FL: Does judge,

00:20:00.590 - 00:20:13.970

FL: do, a federal judge like Moore works for McGrath, I mean, McGrath is his top boss, isn't he? JW: Yes, no, I don't know how far a judge. FL: I don't know JW: I don't know either FL: Yeah JW: I don't think a judge has many bosses

00:20:13.970 - 00:20:20.810

FL: I guess not really, yeah. No. JW: No, I don't, JW: I don't know FL: But but, FL: the District Attorney is, FL: I mean a federal JW: He's a federal

00:20:20.810 - 00:20:37.290

FL: District Attorney, that's one JW: Yes FL: of McGrath's employees, right? JW: And I don't think there's any question, in fact I have reason to know pretty well, JW: the U.S. Attorney that messed it up was on his way out. FL: Uh huh JW: You, know

00:20:37.300 - 00:20:47.110

JW; would be. The, but, but, FL: You mean, you mean Greg Watson was on his way out? JW: Greg Watson FL: Yeah JW: Ya know FL: He was on his way out before this JW: No.

00:20:47.110 - 00:20:59.660

JW: This, FL: As a result of this JW: That was JW: he, he wrote his resignation almost that day, ya know. But McGrath,

00:20:59.660 - 00:21:10.500

who was Attorney General, [though I said that], then he called up and he said that he'd got the report. And he said that the that the case is going to be reopened.

00:21:10.780 - 00:21:21.770

In other words, he was cooperating, and he said, I'll let you pick anyone in my department that you think you'd trust quicker to go down and

00:21:21.770 - 00:21:30.800

be the one in charge, or he said if you don't trust anyone in my department, he said, I'll even give an appointment to

00:21:30.800 - 00:21:37.640

any attorney that you want to bring in from the state of Delaware you have confidence in, and I'll temporarily put him on

00:21:37.640 - 00:21:46.590

the staff, send him down with the full authority to prosecute the case. He said I'm not going to be a part of any cover up, and there'll be no cover up.

00:21:46.590 - 00:21:55.070

JW: And, now FL: I've never heard that, that's JW: McGrath was given a lot of criticism later, ya know. I think the President later JW: fired him FL: Yeah JW: though I don't know what his reasons were.

00:21:55.070 - 00:22:03.570

JW: But I'll say this, there's no man could have been more cooperative. FL: Yeah, he does not show up. FL: I've read very few things about him, he

00:22:03.570 - 00:22:10.520

doesn't show up very well. JW: And I told him that I didn't want to make the appointment. It was his job and I trust him to pick out

00:22:10.520 - 00:22:19.370

a good man to send him down. He did and the job was done. And I know that, what was going to happen to Watson, but he

00:22:19.370 - 00:22:26.880

called me back, a little later. And, or I think I know what would happen to Watson, I just say that you never know. FL: Yeah.

00:22:26.880 - 00:22:35.840

JW: And he said that Watson was a very sick man. And he said, I hate to take the steps that I

00:22:35.840 - 00:22:42.390

think I should take and I'm sure you think I should take. He said, under the circumstances, I'd just like to wait.

00:22:42.390 - 00:22:50.590

Well, the man never recovered, so he was not fired. And I agreed to that. FL: You mean Greg Watson died very soon

00:22:50.590 - 00:23:01.480

FL: thereafter? FL: A month or so, if I recall. JW: But he was sick, and I could see almost why he got sick, but [FL laughing] what that did, what precipitated it,

00:23:01.480 - 00:23:11.710

JW: but he did pass away. FL: Yeah JW: So, I, maybe he never would have been fired, I'm not saying that on the record, I wouldn't want to say, but I do know that,

00:23:11.710 - 00:23:19.570

FL: But McGrath gave you the full, JW: McGrath called, FL: full cooperation and all that JW: he called and said I feel that action should be taken, now whether it'd been

00:23:19.570 - 00:23:27.480

some disciplinary action on what. But I, I got a feeling I know what would be taken, but he said the man is sick, he said I'm not,

00:23:27.480 - 00:23:38.390

he's not force faking it, he says I know he's sick, very sick, and he said he's got a family, and I think under the circumstances, he said, if it's you, alright, I'd just like to hold it in abeyance.

00:23:38.390 - 00:23:46.770

It was, nothing was ever done. FL: Yeah. That, we've talked around this and I want to get this, and again,

00:23:46.770 - 00:23:53.600

maybe, maybe you don't know it either. I certainly don't know, as a matter of fact, I found one book in the Wesley College Library

00:23:53.600 - 00:24:02.390

about grand juries, but I can't, I've not had a chance to really dig into it very deeply. Do you know how grand juries are organized?

00:24:02.390 - 00:24:07.670

That is, I, that's another part of this whole legal system FL: that I JW: You better check

00:24:07.670 - 00:24:14.570

JW: that because I've never had JW: any occasion to FL: I feel foolish as all get out about admitting FL: I don't know anything about it, FL: but, JW: Well, I FL: I, I know what, ya know,

00:24:14.570 - 00:24:24.840

FL: everybody knows what a grand jury is, but where do they come from? FL: Who starts them up? JW: Well, they're selected JW: similar to, some kind of a formula similar to what

00:24:24.840 - 00:24:33.170

JW: the jury's, FL: Yeah, a regular jury JW: the regular jury's are selected JW: I would imagine. Now, I've never served on it. FL: But how long do they, I, just JW: I have no idea

00:24:33.170 - 00:24:40.640

FL: how long they last, and what they, I'm going to have to check that out. JW: You have to check that and I wouldn't try to tell ya. FL: But, but JW: I deliberately

00:24:40.640 - 00:24:49.140

JW: stayed away, of course you know, it's a criminal charge if you interfere with a grand jury, member of a grand jury while he's doing his job.

00:24:49.140 - 00:24:57.120

FL: Right JW: I had no right to talk to the grand jury. FL: No, that's right. That's right. Yes, tampering, and that would have been tampering JW: Tampering, oh no.

00:24:57.120 - 00:25:06.380

I had no right at all. I've been completely out of line to go down and say, tell them why I thought this man.

00:25:06.380 - 00:25:14.970

I mean, that's not my job, and not- But I, any more a member of Congress, no more than anybody else, we can't tamper with that.

00:25:14.970 - 00:25:25.370

FL: So you JW: Separation of powers FL: Yeah JW: So you yourself, under the separation of powers, you yourself never did appear in court?

00:25:25.370 - 00:25:31.360

Just to get this on the record. You never did appear in court in connection with any of your charges on the Senate floor?

00:25:31.360 - 00:25:43.220

JW: Now, never. FL: And you never, you never FL: appeared before a grand jury? JW: No FL: And you, and of course, you never had FL: the power to convene a grand jury. JW: No [faint]

00:25:43.220 - 00:25:54.780

FL: And you've never had the power to actually get a court case started, in other words, every court case that developed out of your investigations,

00:25:54.780 - 00:26:05.720

FL: developed because JW: The Attorney General FL: your reputation FL: put the pressure on JW: No FL: the JW: Yes, maybe, maybe they FL: local justice JW: didn't need pressure. FL: Yeah JW: Maybe there's a man who didn't need it. But the U.S. Attorney in

00:26:05.720 - 00:26:15.680

JW: the district and, maybe independently, JW: I don't know how they operate. FL: Yeah JW: Maybe independently or maybe on orders from the department of Justice in Washington, but how

00:26:15.680 - 00:26:28.530

it was passed down, I don't know. FL: Uh huh JW: But it was done, but it was done JW: independent. FL: Okay, alright. JW: My, JW: my work in the case stopped when I presented the case.

00:26:29.770 - 00:26:38.720

JW: But FL: Yeah, that's yeah, JW: That's the reason I felt it was very important when I said Joe Doe got paid, I didn't just say he got

00:26:38.720 - 00:26:49.140

paid. You notice that most times if I say he got paid, JW: the money was deposited in such and such a bank. FL: Right, right JW: And in other words, there was enough detail

00:26:49.140 - 00:26:58.820

that they could be followed through. FL: Yeah, that's a good point. I'm glad you're, I'm, I'm, I'm thinking while you're talking here that, that

00:26:58.820 - 00:27:07.370

clears up some things for me too. I've been wondering exactly what your role was, and your role really was, in other words you did the, you were

00:27:07.370 - 00:27:16.190

the Sherlock Holmes, you did the digging, you got the case, and then in effect what you did was you announced it FL: publicly, JW: On the floor of the Senate

00:27:16.190 - 00:27:23.960

FL: and then from that point FL: on it with somebody else's, it had to be. JW: Well FL: It wasn't that you, it wasn't FL: that you dropped out? JW: No, but I just

00:27:23.960 - 00:27:30.700

FL: It was just you had done all you could do. JW: It was as far as I could go. FL: Yeah, it was as far as you could. The only other thing you could do is keep on nagging.

00:27:30.700 - 00:27:36.950

JW: I could criticize the courts FL: Yeah JW: if I thought they were JW: negligent in what they were FL: Yeah JW: doing FL: You could keep on pushing it, but you couldn't actually JW: But, uh

00:27:36.950 - 00:27:49.620

FL: do anything yourself. JW: Couldn't do anything, yeah. JW: But, no. And I think that's good. FL: Yeah. JW: It's the separation of powers there. FL: Yeah, I believe in that too. I think that is a JW: No, but

00:27:49.620 - 00:28:01.540

JW: I make that statement JW: about McGrath because I do know FL: That's good to know JW: that later he was, well, according to the JW: press he was fired by the President FL: Right, that's right

00:28:01.550 - 00:28:11.750

JW: I don't have any idea what the President disliked about him, that's his business. FL: I can't remember, I've read it the other day JW: I feel the contact that I had

00:28:11.750 - 00:28:21.890

with McGrath was what I'm telling you, we set up the appointment. FL: Just that one episode with FL: Greg Watson. That's the only direct contact JW: No, I've seen him several times

00:28:21.890 - 00:28:31.850

JW: you know, I served with him in the Senate for FL: Yeah JW: a few years FL: I was gonna ask you that. You had, you and he had been in the Senate FL: together? JW: We were both in the Senate together and, uh, FL: But he must have gotten out just

00:28:31.850 - 00:28:42.410

FL: about, almost the time you got in. JW: Well, he was JW: not too long after, because he FL: Yeah JW: was appointed Attorney General with, now, whether he was in the Senate when he was appointed,

00:28:42.410 - 00:28:52.170

I don't recall, but he was either, JW: I think he was a member of the Senate at the time. FL: I think he was. FL: Yeah. He was from Rhode Island right? JW: Rhode Island. FL: Senator from Rhode Island. JW: But, I, during the course of the,

00:28:52.170 - 00:29:02.480

serving together, I got to know him, and you know how you get to know some better than JW: the other, FL: Right JW: and, as an individual, JW: we weren't social friends,

00:29:02.480 - 00:29:19.150

JW: but I knew him FL: Right JW: and he knew me. JW: And when he called me, FL: He called you as a, as a, I mean he knew you as a former senator JW: No he just called me. As a former senator he knew me, and JW: I knew, I only knew him as John or Howard FL: Right

00:29:19.150 - 00:29:28.440

JW: He said, I would like, I have Watson here and I'd like for him to come down, I'm gonna send him down to talk with you. And if, ya know, if it's alright,

00:29:28.440 - 00:29:36.980

and I'd like to send a couple of my men along, in other words to see what, FL: Right JW: Because FL: To get it, a straight FL: report about JW: Well to get a straight report of my,

00:29:36.980 - 00:29:46.460

JW: I know what he was after. FL: Yeah. Right. JW: And I had no objections to him sending them down and he had no objections to me setting these others in there.

00:29:46.460 - 00:29:59.060

FL: Uh huh JW: I wanted somebody else to know what was going on too. FL: Yeah. FL: So you had, you had the man from FL: the Finance Committee and JW: Well, FL: Kem and Schoeppel, right? JW: I didn't have the man. I think at that time,

00:29:59.060 - 00:30:07.880

I think that had Mrs. Springer, who was the Chief Clerk. FL: Chief Clerk of the Finance Committee. JW: She was the one there. FL: And you had Eleanor JW: Eleanor FL: and

00:30:07.880 - 00:30:20.870

FL: Senator Kem and Senator Schoeppel. JW: Kem and Schoeppel. And that was all. JW: And they were Watson and I don't know whether there was two or three of them or not. Eleanor could tell you, cuz she took

00:30:20.870 - 00:30:32.880

down the names of who they were and stuff, took some notes on the meeting. And yeah the committee, but, and I know that the Department of Justice, their men,

00:30:32.920 - 00:30:42.320

JW: one of them was taking a few notes. FL: Yeah JW: No objections from me. JW: I'd take, each one JW: taking his record of what went on. FL: Right JW: I mean, not the

00:30:42.320 - 00:30:50.630

stenographic record, but FL: Just making notes to report FL: back to McGrath and nobody else. JW: Yes, JW: they were reporting back FL: Sure, yeah

00:30:50.630 - 00:31:02.930

JW: I knew what they were there for, and JW: very proper. FL: Yes JW: And, but I, I do JW: say this, and no disrespect that when they went back,

00:31:02.930 - 00:31:13.440

the man, the indictments did come come around, the convictions were made, they were sustained and all was cleared up, and as far as I'm concerned,

00:31:13.510 - 00:31:24.610

JW: the Department of Justice handled the case alright. FL: Uh huh JW: Now it was a Democratic Department of Justice, if you want to JW: make it FL: Right JW: and McGrath was JW: a member of the Democratic Party, former

00:31:24.610 - 00:31:38.270

JW: Democratic state, national, chairman. FL: Yeah he was a partisan. JW: But on this instance, there was no effort made that you... he gave no indication that

00:31:38.270 - 00:31:39.780

I think [Recording ends]