00:00:01.190 - 00:00:11.190

[Elise Wolpert] So we'll start out with something simple. When did you arrive to Delaware? [Barbara Settles] My husband and I made our 1 nationwide search for

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2 jobs in 1 location, in 1968 when he graduated. His degree was in Physics, and I had already graduated earlier and

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had been working at Otterbein College. But we did this big search. We would find one place where they'd want one of us, and one place

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where they'd want the other. Very few places where they wanted both of us. But when we came, Andy had worked at DuPont one summer

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and so they were very excited about offering him something. And I got an offer both from Delaware and from Glassboro,

00:00:45.440 - 00:00:53.960

which is now Rowan College. But I decided to come to Delaware because they had a graduate program, Master's program in

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Home Economics and the other program did not. They paid a little bit more. They had a little higher salaries over in Jersey.

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But, but it was, it seemed to me like there was more opportunity here. And so we came in

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1968 and I've been here ever since. [EW] And Andy is your husband? [BS] Andy is my husband, yes. [EW] Oh okay. And did you get your undergraduate degree

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at Otterbein? You said you were working there. [BS] No, you know, I worked there while he was finishing his degree. Both of us took all of

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our higher education at Ohio State University. I had an undergraduate degree in Home Economics, Education and Extension.

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Andy had an Engineering and Physics degree. And then we both went on and got PhDs. [EW] And how do you think your undergraduate degree impacted

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the career path that you chose? [BS] Well, of course, I came out of a family that had just a huge number of women who were

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either Elementary teachers or Home Economics teachers. And the thing about Home Economics was it required

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a 4-year degree where you could at that time, early in my mother's generation, you could teach elementary school

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on a 2-year degree. So they thought they were definitely more professional in the Home Economics group.

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And I had my mother, her sister, we had 3 or 4 cousins that also did Home Economics.

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So it was for us. For my mother, who grew up in West Virginia, was a major mobility thing to become a teacher.

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To come down to Ohio State University and take a Master's degree as she did in the 1930s. And then go on to teach

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vocational Home Economics in a high school and supervise student teachers. So she had an adjunct position for a little while at the university.

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So we came kind of into it from the standpoint that Home Economics provided really good jobs. And I really assumed

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that I would be working. It never occurred to me that I wouldn't be and that I had a very exciting experience

00:03:06.860 - 00:03:15.680

when I was an undergraduate. There was a program at Merrill Palmer School in Detroit, Michigan. And it was a small institute

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that had been cert-- that gotten recognition by the certification and then and various accrediting associations so that you could transfer

00:03:24.830 - 00:03:34.400

the courses back to your university. And so students from all over the United States would go there for Child Development,

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Human Sexuality, things in terms of Family Sociology, Family Studies kinds of things. And I had a quarter

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there and it was very exciting. It was just like going to graduate school, and a great deal of fun. And I think it's

00:03:53.050 - 00:04:00.020

that kind of thing that gave me the sense that I could go on to school, that I was interested in the kinds of things that you

00:04:00.020 - 00:04:06.290

could get out of a graduate education. [EW] Did you take those classes after high school? [BS] That was, it was in the middle

00:04:06.290 - 00:04:15.260

of my Bachelor's degree. I just would go, I just went for a semester to take those courses. [EW] Oh okay. [BS] And it was some of the most outstanding

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people in the country. And so people that were real leaders. In those days, they actually had an infants group,

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and a toddlers group. And they had mothers come in and they worked with the parent education as well. They had done some things

00:04:33.650 - 00:04:39.410

in terms of disabilities. And you do have to understand, that's very early for those kinds of programs

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to have been in place. And then of course, I took a job when I came out of school because Andy was still working on

00:04:48.490 - 00:04:58.810

his degree and I went into the Extension service. And that was up in the northeast part of Ohio at Ashland.

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And there was a small college there. And I got very much involved in doing work with women's groups and with 4-H.

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And I remember I did a tailoring class and all the women in it were thinking about going back to work.

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And so I helped them make a suit and get something that they could interview in. And then we took some of their old clothes,

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and straightened them up, and made them look more like Chanel jackets and that sort of thing, so that they looked a little more professional.

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And they did go on to be, work for colleges and universities, or finish some of their graduate studies. And so I think, in some respects,

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even though I wasn't thinking about being in the Women's Movement, you just kind of get into it by the things that you end up doing.

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And then one summery afternoon, my husband and my mother. Now at that time, he wasn't my husband. He was my fiancee.

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But they got me out on the porch and they said, "Now we're not to blame if you don't go on and get a Master's degree.

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There's no reason for you to sit around and just work up there and not move ahead with your career. It's time to go back to graduate school.

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You have to make an appointment with the dean and find out if you can't get a good start." And so then I did do that.

00:06:21.770 - 00:06:30.110

And there was a new faculty member that was coming in Family Studies that fall. And she was my adviser and a very wonderful person.

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And I ended up sort of phasing from that Master's degree into a PhD program. And so it really worked out very well. [EW] Now, you said that you

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were actually encouraged by your fiancee at the time and your mother to continue on with your studies? [BS] Yes. They both did not want me to blame

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their other things they wanted me to do as reasons why I couldn't go on to grad school. They didn't want to at any point be, have me

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turn to them and say, "Well, I would have done that if you hadn't discouraged me." And so they felt it was

00:07:05.310 - 00:07:12.440

very important for them to take a stand that if I wanted graduate school, I should go and get it. And I did. [EW] Did your family have

00:07:12.440 - 00:07:19.550

other expectations of you besides schooling that would have gotten in the way of going back to school? [BS] Well I think, you know, my husband

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and I were thinking of getting married at that particular point in time. And my mother had not had a career. She had done some work after her Master's degree.

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But, you know, there's a lot that happens in terms of where you are in the generations and the Depression,

00:07:39.890 - 00:07:50.360

I think affected both my family and my husband's family fairly severely. And my dad had a job. So that was a really important thing.

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He had not gotten to go to college, but he had a job and he was, you know, taking care of his family and able to buy a house and those sort of things.

00:07:59.450 - 00:08:07.610

So when my mother, you know, when I was born and she was able to do a little bit of work. She did some things.

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And one summer, she taught at the university and I went to preschool. But then World War II broke out and she didn't have a job,

00:08:16.930 - 00:08:24.320

a full-time job at that point, and she did have another child and it was really kind of difficult during World War II.

00:08:24.320 - 00:08:33.470

to exactly... You either went and worked in an industry that was supporting the war or you know, lots of things weren't happening that

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had been happening before. So she really didn't get back into the labor market herself. But I think she thought

00:08:40.160 - 00:08:47.810

that I would want to. And I think everybody, even though people are somewhat traditional, there is another level at which

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they sort of think you have some talent, you should do something with it. And so I, I, I've never had any problem

00:08:54.890 - 00:09:02.180

with going to graduate school and moving on and people thinking I should work or not work. It wasn't my family

00:09:02.180 - 00:09:10.700

that was holding me back at any time. And it was an exciting time. You have to also remember that at the time I was in

00:09:10.700 - 00:09:20.450

school is the Civil Rights Movement. And so that was one of the big moving things that was happening at that time

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when I taught Otterbein, they would have a bus out front at noon on Fridays so that you could ride on the bus South to

00:09:28.550 - 00:09:37.490

the sit-ins if you wanted to. And the students would do that because Otterbein was an old abolitionist college. It was an Evangelical

00:09:37.490 - 00:09:46.170

United brethren, which was a kind of German Methodist that were both pacifist and very much opposed to slavery.

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So they still had that kind of air about them in the 1960s when I worked there. [EW] Now, you mentioned

00:09:54.560 - 00:10:05.780

the Civil Rights Movement. Do you find a lot of similarities in the I guess the initiatives that the Civil Rights Movement was pushing for

00:10:05.780 - 00:10:18.110

and parallels to the Women's Movement? [BS] I think you can see that throughout history. That people who were active in abolition, in temperance, in women's rights often were interchangeable.

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In some, not everybody did everything, but that happened to happen over and over again. And the...

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After we got suffrage for the black population, it still didn't extend to women. And so it was, you know, so many, many,

00:10:37.160 - 00:10:43.970

many more years before women got the suffrage. I could remember my mother saying that her mother was so

00:10:43.970 - 00:10:52.430

thrilled when she got the right to vote. And she lived there in West Virginia, which was a Democrat State that didn't, nothing much happened except in the,

00:10:52.430 - 00:10:59.890

in the primaries, you know, because once the primary people had been suggested that was who was going to win.

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But her husband would be asking her, "Letha," she would say he'd say, "How'd you vote? Tell me how you voted."

00:11:06.940 - 00:11:14.240

And she'd say, "Oh, John, and I can't tell you that we have a secret ballot in the U.S." And, you know, it was just

00:11:14.240 - 00:11:19.570

really important for her. She really enjoyed the fact that that kind of thing had happened in her generation.

00:11:19.570 - 00:11:30.980

And then for my mother's generation, I think particularly women's education became so much more available. You know, she, her family.

00:11:30.980 - 00:11:41.330

Her generation was the first to go to college. No one else had done that before. And so I think you get those kinds of things that kind of go together.

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And I think again, as Civil Rights began to move forward, we began to see things happening. It also became clear to people

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that we hadn't done much about women's rights in a long time, and that there were still a lot of things that

00:11:57.770 - 00:12:05.610

hadn't happened that needed to happen. And for me, of course, when I came here, it turned out that I was pregnant.

00:12:05.610 - 00:12:12.270

And I had to go in and tell my Dean and, you know, try to get things worked out. And of course, University of Delaware

00:12:12.270 - 00:12:19.490

didn't have any maternity leave. In fact, her first offer to me was that she'd let me resign like they did in public schools.

00:12:19.490 - 00:12:25.520

Because you had to resign even in those days, you had to resign if you were pregnant. [EW] Wow. [BS] And I said, "Well, I hadn't

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any intention of doing that, I hadn't moved all the way from Ohio to walk away from a job." Well, then she said, "Then you will

00:12:33.800 - 00:12:42.480

have to pay for your substitute. If you need a substitute." And I said, "Well that will be okay. I'll work that out." And so I was very lucky.

00:12:42.480 - 00:12:52.940

Alex was born on the Friday before spring break. So then I had a graduate student who was my assistant.

00:12:52.940 - 00:13:05.300

She took my class on Monday following Spring Break. And there was a sex-ed pre-test that we always had them take before we had

00:13:05.300 - 00:13:14.900

the discussion about sexuality. And so she could administer that. And so then I went back to work on the Wednesday after spring break.

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And I was very fortunate I was very healthy and I had some help from my mom and then some really great students in our building,

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you know, because I was living in a building that had mostly students. So what you can see... I walked in the door with my own issue.

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I had an issue I had to deal with. And at the same time all of those things were happening. Dr. Trabant wanted the faculty to do

00:13:44.120 - 00:13:55.190

a really big strategic planning exercise. And he got every department to work out a 2-, 5-, 10-year plan of what they wanted to do.

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And then he had cross committees across the different disciplines and across the different colleges to work on other issues.

00:14:03.150 - 00:14:11.060

So we all got to know each other. There were about a 100 new faculty that were hired the year I came. And if you can imagine how many people

00:14:11.060 - 00:14:19.010

that was in a small university. It was like a huge change. And so what we did was we got to know each other,

00:14:19.010 - 00:14:30.800

we got involved in this kind of planning, and then we began to see what it was that Delaware needed to kind of work on. It had been a small liberal arts college

00:14:30.800 - 00:14:36.500

with a very nice Chem Engineering department and Chemistry department. But really everything

00:14:36.500 - 00:14:46.440

else was pretty small. Small college, School of Ed, a small Agriculture college, this small Home Economics college.

00:14:46.440 - 00:14:53.460

It was not a department, it was a college because it had it was standard disciplinary. It had Nursing, had Nutrition.

00:14:53.460 - 00:15:05.000

It had Textiles and Clothing. It had Household Equipment and all of those things, plus Family Studies and Child Development. So one of the things that

00:15:05.000 - 00:15:10.340

we also realized was that the University of Delaware didn't have much in the way of faculty governance.

00:15:10.340 - 00:15:17.150

And one of the things that came out of that process was we got the Faculty Senate and the whole Senate committee system,

00:15:17.150 - 00:15:26.710

which is very important and a very important part of what's made Delaware a really first-rate institution.

00:15:26.710 - 00:15:35.550

And at the end then, of course, I was really quite shocked by the fact that we didn't have personnel policies.

00:15:35.550 - 00:15:43.000

Everything was individual. You worked it out with your Chair or your Dean or you ended up in the President's office and

00:15:43.000 - 00:15:49.730

cut a deal on anything that you needed to have any kind of a personnel policy. And so I got

00:15:49.730 - 00:15:57.860

involved with a group of people in AAUP, the American Association of University Professors. And we decided we needed a union.

00:15:57.860 - 00:16:04.190

And we organized a union, I was part of that original executive committee. And of course,

00:16:04.190 - 00:16:12.560

I had an agenda of things I thought we needed to get into a bargaining unit. So we had those kinds of things going on

00:16:12.560 - 00:16:18.180

in those years. I also was very much involved in sex education. And that was the point at which

00:16:18.180 - 00:16:24.790

dorms were being integrated. And all of a sudden they realized that you really didn't need to talk about some of these issues if people were

00:16:24.790 - 00:16:34.290

going to be co-ed in the dorms. And some of us, there was, it was still pretty small faculty for all of the people that were coming in,

00:16:34.290 - 00:16:41.920

the larger classes and so forth. And one of the things I had been doing was giving talks in the dorm about sexuality

00:16:41.920 - 00:16:49.290

and contraception and some of those kinds of things. And it just was not the way to be doing it. It was too small groups,

00:16:49.290 - 00:16:56.410

it was too many times. And so a number of us decided that we really thought we needed some kind of

00:16:56.410 - 00:17:05.640

A university course in sexuality. And the University provided some opportunities. I had been on a task force on sex education.

00:17:05.640 - 00:17:13.630

So that was one of the groups where across units, we were putting things together. So as Women's Studies began

00:17:13.630 - 00:17:20.110

to be talked about across the country, University of Delaware was a place where it was pretty easy to get

00:17:20.110 - 00:17:26.890

something like that started. We had, you could teach a course a couple of times as experimental before

00:17:26.890 - 00:17:34.440

you had to have it reviewed. So that meant that you could try something out and do something with it. And we did the same kind of thing as

00:17:34.440 - 00:17:44.360

they did in the sexuality courses. And I think there were oh, I don't know, maybe 19 or 20 people involved in putting together

00:17:44.360 - 00:17:54.290

the first Women's Studies course. And what we did was everybody contributed, you know, I don't think anybody got paid for it.

00:17:54.290 - 00:18:00.900

But we had a little bit of money from the University to develop the course and we had a good turn out, I think,

00:18:00.900 - 00:18:12.200

nearly a 100 people that first time. I remember I talked about balancing work and family. That was my piece was to talk about that. [EW] Because you are with the...?

00:18:12.200 - 00:18:18.230

[BS] I'm a Family Studies person, right? And I also was a person who was balancing work and family.

00:18:18.230 - 00:18:25.250

They always, you know, there was always this sense look at the ring. And that was as important as the PhD as far

00:18:25.250 - 00:18:34.430

as a lot of people were concerned. But anyhow, it was a really nice group of people. Everything from English to Philosophy

00:18:34.430 - 00:18:42.550

to Social Science to some people than in some of the Sciences. In Home Economics, there was a woman who taught her

00:18:42.550 - 00:18:48.680

household equipment courses in there, that kind of thing. And so she said, "Well, why don't we have everybody

00:18:48.680 - 00:18:58.580

wire a lamp and just, do the just help everybody understand how electricity works and how to do it." And just walk away with

00:18:58.580 - 00:19:06.530

a new lamp and she got somebody to supply us with the materials and everybody did that. And they thought, you felt like

00:19:06.530 - 00:19:14.970

you were able to cross over some of those lines that had put people in Home Economics rather than Shop,

00:19:14.970 - 00:19:21.520

you know, so it was kind of fun from that standpoint. But then we went on to have a lot of other kinds of courses and what we,

00:19:21.520 - 00:19:29.330

the other thing that the University offered was the ability to cross-list. So that a course I was teaching, if it had enough Women's Studies

00:19:29.330 - 00:19:36.260

content could be cross-listed with Women's Studies. And then a student like you who was not in my department might be,

00:19:36.260 - 00:19:43.790

take it as Women's Studies where you might not have taken it as Home Economics. You might not have, it might not have fit into your program,

00:19:43.790 - 00:19:50.240

but if it was cross-listed, you could do that. And I guess another thing I did was

00:19:50.240 - 00:19:59.970

one summer, early on, I think maybe it was 1972 or 1973, I taught a summer school class in Women's Studies.

00:19:59.970 - 00:20:09.620

And Mae Carter was very upset because I called it Women's Studies. Because she had in her plan, she had a real desire for there to be

00:20:09.620 - 00:20:16.400

a Women's Studies department. And then they would be the only ones that used the word Women's Studies except

00:20:16.400 - 00:20:24.380

if you cross-listed. And so on. She wasn't unhappy with what I taught. I didn't have a very nice group of graduate students from

00:20:24.380 - 00:20:29.060

across campus who took that with me in the summer. And the thing that was nice about summer school

00:20:29.060 - 00:20:35.440

was you could teach almost anything you wanted to. It was your bet. If you could fill the class,

00:20:35.440 - 00:20:43.970

then you got paid. If you didn't, you didn't get paid. You didn't get a chance to offer it. But that was a way to get a course started.

00:20:43.970 - 00:20:54.920

Was to offer it in summer school or offer it in Continuing Education. The college of Home Economics as it was then had a

00:20:54.920 - 00:21:03.830

faculty meeting one Friday afternoon, and they said to me, "We think that we need one of those modern courses.

00:21:03.830 - 00:21:12.860

And why don't you develop something on this whole business of all these new lifestyles?" And so I was asked that, and I ended up

00:21:12.860 - 00:21:20.770

developing a course called Emerging Lifestyles for Men and Women. And that was a really great course because

00:21:20.770 - 00:21:29.930

it was included both the changing roles of men and the changing roles of women. And the choices people had in terms of the diversity

00:21:29.930 - 00:21:38.090

of family forms and non-family living arrangements and so forth. And we could do whatever was of interest at

00:21:38.090 - 00:21:45.230

that particular time, very easily under that kind of rubric. And for many years that was offered, that I think, it's

00:21:45.230 - 00:21:54.530

now so much focused on that particular issue. It's more on family and community issues at this point. But for many years it was

00:21:54.530 - 00:22:02.960

a kind of Women's Studies, Men's Studies course that our students took. And then lots of other people too because it

00:22:02.960 - 00:22:14.750

was a course that interested many people. [EW] Did you find that there was a big, I guess, difference between the opportunities for women and

00:22:14.750 - 00:22:24.140

men that were in your classes? [BS] Well, of course, you know, Home Economics was by nature, in terms of the way it had been

00:22:24.140 - 00:22:30.020

organized from its beginnings, primarily appealing to women. And so there weren't as many men, at least at

00:22:30.020 - 00:22:37.740

the undergraduate and graduate level, there were always some men. And certainly when you offer a course that sort,

00:22:37.740 - 00:22:44.570

it has the word that says that you're welcoming men into it, then we had more men in that course than we did in the major, right?

00:22:44.570 - 00:22:52.760

People would take that course because they thought it was interesting, an interesting idea. And I certainly ended up

00:22:52.760 - 00:23:00.650

working with a lot of guys over the years in different ways, mostly at the graduate level, but also some at the undergraduate level.

00:23:00.650 - 00:23:09.410

And since we've offered the minor in Family, in Human Development and Family Studies, we have a lot more men coming into

00:23:09.410 - 00:23:18.680

our classes because that's an easy route. They're taking Psychology or Sociology and Criminal Justice, like you are.

00:23:18.680 - 00:23:25.550

From the very beginning though, there were men teaching in our program. And I don't know if you have a list of some of those,

00:23:25.550 - 00:23:34.730

but you should go back and look at the some of the course offerings of that period and see where there are some of those men that were offering things.

00:23:34.730 - 00:23:42.470

We never... We never in Women's Studies on our campus crowded out men who were willing to and

00:23:42.470 - 00:23:49.070

interested in getting involved. Now, so you see there were, so we have these Women's Studies classes. We also have this human sexuality

00:23:49.070 - 00:23:56.450

classes that were being offered. And in some respects, the human sexuality classes had a lot of relationship to some of

00:23:56.450 - 00:24:05.660

the issues in Women's Studies. And that's probably as I came into it. What I was coming into it was that I had been teaching sex education.

00:24:05.660 - 00:24:13.790

I had been doing courses for teachers. The first year I was here, they had a course

00:24:13.790 - 00:24:23.730

arranged for me to teach sexuality education to Delaware teachers and the State Legislature got wind of it.

00:24:23.730 - 00:24:34.590

And that was back with the John Birch Society was so opposed. You know, some of these far-right groups have been around a long time

00:24:34.590 - 00:24:43.370

and they wrote asking for my syllabus and all the films I was going to show and what all, you know, what all the dirty things

00:24:43.370 - 00:24:51.350

where I was going to do. And I spoke to my Dean and we went to see the Provost and he said, "No,

00:24:51.350 - 00:24:59.970

you don't have to do that." He said, "We'll, send them a letter and we'll invite them that they can visit your class if they call you in advance.

00:24:59.970 - 00:25:10.140

And we just don't give our materials out. And we're not, we're a State university, but we're also a private institution." And so they did back me up.

00:25:10.140 - 00:25:24.050

But I was pretty frightened, because it was clear that there were people in the community opposed to, just as they are today,

00:25:24.050 - 00:25:32.840

I guess in many cases, opposed to open discussion of sexuality, especially with students. And so you have

00:25:32.840 - 00:25:40.410

to say that I kind of rocked back and forth between Women's Studies and Sexuality Education. As both of the things that were interesting to me.

00:25:40.410 - 00:25:49.980

[EW] Did you find that there was more adversity towards the classes that you taught on sex ed or Women's Sudies courses?

00:25:49.980 - 00:25:56.840

[BS] I never saw any resistance to the Women's Studies courses. Now maybe some other people have had that experience.

00:25:56.840 - 00:26:06.970

And I was not always able to cross-list. I would like to have cross-listed more, but we did have a growing student population in our own majors.

00:26:06.970 - 00:26:16.080

And so sometimes I couldn't list a cross-listing because it wouldn't have enough seats in the class. And so I didn't get to do it as much.

00:26:16.080 - 00:26:28.130

But whenever I taught in Women's Studies, I always felt that there was good support. I did do a little later as you get toward the end of the 1970s and

00:26:28.130 - 00:26:34.940

the beginning of the 1980s, I got very much interested in women in international development. There had been a grant come into

00:26:34.940 - 00:26:43.280

the College of Agriculture. And it had a part that had to be spent on women in international development. And I had friends

00:26:43.280 - 00:26:50.720

from the Women's Studies group, and we got together along with some other people that were appointed to work on

00:26:50.720 - 00:27:00.770

a Women in Development committee. And I ended up doing quite a lot of work in Panama and later some work in Costa Rica.

00:27:00.770 - 00:27:21.410

In terms of, kinds of things that women in other countries needed. And so Sally Bould and...from Geography, [Speaks to someone off-camera) her husband and she'd...

00:27:21.410 - 00:27:29.630

[Man's voice off-camera] She was DuPonter. [BS] Yeah, she... uh... I'll have to get that name for you. [EW] It's all right. [BS] It'll come back in a moment.

00:27:29.630 - 00:27:38.210

We developed a Women in Development course, and we taught it once as a team and then in the different

00:27:38.210 - 00:27:45.860

departments at different times, and we would guest lecture for each other. But that Sally ended up in Sociology having more opportunity

00:27:45.860 - 00:27:52.410

to schedule it than us. I haven't taught it for a long time, but it was a great course and we, and a lot of fun with it.

00:27:52.410 - 00:28:00.830

[EW] Now it seems like team-teaching was a very popular way to experiment with courses? And that's how UD's,

00:28:00.830 - 00:28:08.840

first Women's Studies course was taught. [BS] Right. [EW] Did you find in your experiences that teaching in

00:28:08.840 - 00:28:17.990

the teaching alone or teaching in a team was more effective in drawing in students? [BS] Well, I think having

00:28:17.990 - 00:28:24.650

the team meant that a student could figure out that there was somebody that might relate to them. You know, that there was somebody from

00:28:24.650 - 00:28:30.410

their end of the disciplinary, whatever the disciplines are that were being represented. And so I think that helped in

00:28:30.410 - 00:28:41.030

terms of attracting people. But I have to say that women on this campus always had pretty heavy loads. I mean, I had a 3-1 split.

00:28:41.030 - 00:28:50.600

I have 3 classes each semester and just 1 quarter that was not teaching. So that if I were to add anything, how would I do that?

00:28:50.600 - 00:28:58.460

I could add it as a night course for extra money and we did that sometimes. And that's one of the places where we did some of

00:28:58.460 - 00:29:07.900

these team things is we would do them as a Continuing Ed course. And if you were only having to do 2 or 3 lectures,

00:29:07.900 - 00:29:16.030

you could contribute to Women's Studies and keep it going even though you didn't have a whole much,

00:29:16.030 - 00:29:24.290

not much time that you could give to it. Because you have to realize at the same time these things were happening in teaching, the whole University was switching

00:29:24.290 - 00:29:34.160

from being a liberal arts college that was mainly a teaching institution into a research institution. And the first summer I was here,

00:29:34.160 - 00:29:42.380

they took my keys away from me for my office because I was on a 9-month contract. I wasn't expected to come in

00:29:42.380 - 00:29:50.360

in the summer and... but I had this course and I had to, you know, I had to ask around and get some help to get my keys back

00:29:50.360 - 00:29:58.100

so that I could work out of my office with this course I was teaching. But it was just beginning to see that summer was a time

00:29:58.100 - 00:30:06.370

you'd be doing research or that you would be doing research all the time, that you would be maybe even trying to publish.

00:30:06.370 - 00:30:14.300

There was very little publishing done when I came to the University. But at the same time we were developing Women's Studies,

00:30:14.300 - 00:30:25.580

Sexuality Education, Black American Studies, Latin American Studies, all of these different kinds of interdisciplinary things where also

00:30:25.580 - 00:30:34.670

all those women were being asked to come up with a real research program and with publications program. And I think the reason we often did things

00:30:34.670 - 00:30:40.370

is committees was that was really all the time we had. And we couldn't, you know, not many people could actually

00:30:40.370 - 00:30:48.860

get or who had real appointments. Now, if that's one of the reasons we also used part-timers. And we started to use more people who

00:30:48.860 - 00:30:59.390

were in the community but had not been on the faculty, but who... And some of those people came in through Women's Studies and eventually

00:30:59.390 - 00:31:07.190

got positions too. I mean, that also happened. They found a spot for them in the departments

00:31:07.190 - 00:31:17.010

they should be in, in addition to the Women's Studies work. But there was a real time problem for people in terms of participating.

00:31:17.010 - 00:31:27.890

And you see at one point, Helen Gouldner comes in as a new Dean to Arts and Science. And she's quite dynamic.

00:31:27.890 - 00:31:36.410

But when she takes a Women's Studies retreat, I was noticing when we were looking at those papers that you sent me, that she only took people

00:31:36.410 - 00:31:45.830

from Arts and Science to that retreat. She didn't ask those of us who are in these more professional colleges to be part of it when they

00:31:45.830 - 00:31:54.530

started to organize that. So there was always a sort of... It was open in many ways that, but it was also: Was it going to

00:31:54.530 - 00:32:04.590

be part of liberal arts? Or was it going to be a university-wide kind of thing? And it's always been hard to be a university-wide kind of study.

00:32:04.590 - 00:32:13.170

One that's been totally unsuccessful, has been Gerontology. Several times we've tried to get something started in

00:32:13.170 - 00:32:21.610

Gerontology because just as Women's Studies and sexuality education are things that affect a lot of different departments.

00:32:21.610 - 00:32:29.270

Gerontology is something that runs through many different departments and groups, but it's not in 1 college.

00:32:29.270 - 00:32:36.730

And so the, every time they try to get something going in Gerontology, it ends up that there's just a tiny little effort

00:32:36.730 - 00:32:42.590

and it never quite takes off. [EW] You'll have to explain to me what is Gerontology? [BS] Oh, that's the study of the

00:32:42.590 - 00:32:52.340

aged and that's the study of services to the aged and programs for the aged and of the development of people at that stage of life.

00:32:52.340 - 00:33:00.410

And you would think with the aging population that we would want a huge Gerontology effort, especially in the state where

00:33:00.410 - 00:33:08.470

so many people retire to Delaware. You know, this is a place that particularly in southern Delaware in Sussex County,

00:33:08.470 - 00:33:14.990

the Home Economics agent for the cooperative extension, they hired a person who was a gerontologist because they

00:33:14.990 - 00:33:21.470

saw that that was what they really needed in that part of things. But it has been hard on campus because I'm not sure,

00:33:21.470 - 00:33:33.560

as you go clear up to the top and maybe up to even the Board of Trustees that they're not terribly comfortable with thinking about elderly people.

00:33:33.560 - 00:33:42.470

It's kind of something that makes them a little, something a little nervous about that. You don't want to see people with their walkers out on campus, right?

00:33:42.470 - 00:33:49.560

I don't know if you've ever. Have you ever been up to Arsht Hall up on the north side where we have those aging programs?

00:33:49.560 - 00:34:01.760

We have a very extensive program for elderly people in terms of Continuing Education up there. But like they're never invited to come to

00:34:01.760 - 00:34:12.230

campus to have programs. They're sort of walled off there. [EW] Where on North Campus? [BS] This is up on Delaware Avenue,

00:34:12.230 - 00:34:22.820

Pennsylvania Avenue, at that end of Wilmington. Not very far from... I'm trying to think what you... not too far from where

00:34:22.820 - 00:34:35.960

the DuPont facility is, not too far from where Tatnall is some of those private schools. It's in a nice part of town and somebody gave

00:34:35.960 - 00:34:50.990

us that property and the Arsht family, helped us to build a building there, and now there's another foundation that's helping them develop that program.

00:34:50.990 - 00:34:57.860

But it's being developed primarily as a service program to the elderly, not as a research program or a teaching program

00:34:57.860 - 00:35:05.180

in aging, which would be very nice to have on campus. But that one didn't, didn't catch fire. Women's Studies did.

00:35:05.180 - 00:35:13.250

[EW] What do you think made the difference between the failures of Gerontology and the successes of Women's Studies?

00:35:13.250 - 00:35:21.680

What do you think really made the difference in it? [BS] Well, I think partially Women's Studies hit when, hit at a time when the University was

00:35:21.680 - 00:35:31.190

changing and wanting to change It, you know, they were new programs were welcome. All that whole 1970s era.

00:35:31.190 - 00:35:40.400

It was also... and our graduate program grew in Child Development. That's when Head Start started you know, and we had all sorts of students coming

00:35:40.400 - 00:35:50.090

back for Master's degrees in that area. You know, it was a time all across campus where women were coming into the University.

00:35:50.090 - 00:35:56.100

They were hiring more women. They were hiring more women that had credentials. There had been a policy and

00:35:56.100 - 00:36:06.320

procedure in many places. Biology was one of them. That, and so was Home Economics, where they would hire people who

00:36:06.320 - 00:36:16.040

had Master's degrees and give them short-term soft-money contracts. And just admitting to them up front that they were not going to tenure them,

00:36:16.040 - 00:36:23.110

and that they were just sort of getting some experience before then they would go back to grad school or go on

00:36:23.110 - 00:36:29.650

to some other kind of career. And so, for example, in Biology, for years there were lots of women in the Biology department

00:36:29.650 - 00:36:36.470

and none of them were tenured. And none of them were doing research on a regular basis. And so what was

00:36:36.470 - 00:36:47.150

happening in the 1970s was that more people were being hired who had PhDs who were in a position to put together

00:36:47.150 - 00:37:00.870

a research program. or writing program, a history program, whatever in the liberal arts, their kind of scholarly program. And so Women's Studies was like,

00:37:01.150 - 00:37:09.380

in some respects, I'd have to say it was like a workshop for us. You know, we helped each other.

00:37:09.380 - 00:37:16.620

There weren't... For example, when I went up for Full Professor, I couldn't find anybody else who'd gone up for Full Professor.

00:37:16.620 - 00:37:23.680

There were some women who were Full Professors in the University, but they had been tenured when it was the Women's College.

00:37:23.680 - 00:37:31.850

And when the, when that was put together as a whole co-ed university after World War II, then they hadn't promoted

00:37:31.850 - 00:37:39.350

anymore women to Full Professors. They'd brought a few in from outside. Roberta Coleman, and some of those people were brought

00:37:39.350 - 00:37:49.520

in as Full Professors, but they weren't promoted here. So there'd only been, I believe, 1 or 2 women promoted to Full Professor before I was.

00:37:49.520 - 00:37:56.670

I know Marian Palley was promoted before I was. Maybe there was somebody else. But when I went up, the first time I went up,

00:37:56.670 - 00:38:01.850

they didn't like the way I'd written my dossier and they gave me all sorts of critical comments and said,

00:38:01.850 - 00:38:07.880

"No, it's not your turn yet to go up for Full Professor." And so I took the comments they made and I

00:38:07.880 - 00:38:14.240

rewrote it, and I resubmitted it. Not a whole lot had happened in the following year, but I didn't know how to write the dossier,

00:38:14.240 - 00:38:22.940

but I hadn't been able to find any model. I had... nobody had shared with me a successful dossier, so I didn't know what it was

00:38:22.940 - 00:38:29.500

supposed to look like. But then one of the things that we did both in terms of Women's Studies

00:38:29.500 - 00:38:38.210

and University governance is we started having panels to tell young women and men how to go up for promotion.

00:38:38.210 - 00:38:46.520

And I think you've probably seen some of those kinds of things. And I can remember Lindy Geis who founded the,

00:38:46.520 - 00:39:02.280

that program for young women in terms of manuscripts on Women's Studies that they have the contest in the spring and it's over several campuses.

00:39:02.280 - 00:39:11.440

Well, when when Lindy was in Psychology, she'd had to leave the University for a couple of years because her father

00:39:11.440 - 00:39:18.650

needed some help out on the West Coast. And when she came back, and started, you know, so they had given her leave.

00:39:18.650 - 00:39:24.250

But when she came back, it was kind of like, "Well, where's the book you wrote while you were taking care of your dad" Right?

00:39:24.250 - 00:39:29.420

You know, it's that kind of, that kind of... So she was feeling that it wasn't, that she wasn't so welcome.

00:39:29.420 - 00:39:34.490

And I remember going out to lunch with her, and helping her go through and figure out how to write

00:39:34.490 - 00:39:43.250

her dossier so that it would explain why she'd been gone, but also explain where she was going with her research program and

00:39:43.250 - 00:39:49.760

make it clear to people that she was a serious person. And then she did get promoted. And so that was another thing

00:39:49.760 - 00:39:56.260

that we started doing to each other. We would help each other with those transitions. And I think that

00:39:56.260 - 00:40:06.770

still goes on today. I think there's a lot of collegiality among women on our campus. [EW] Now you said they had originally rejected your dossier. Who is they?

00:40:06.770 - 00:40:17.020

[BS] Oh, it was the Faculty Promotion and Tenure committee at the University level. And that had just been going for a while.

00:40:17.020 - 00:40:28.180

It had that, they never had that before. Before they had this faculty governance developed in the early 1970s, I guess the Provost had chosen them.

00:40:28.180 - 00:40:34.390

I don't believe they had any committees, but then they did get a committee. [EW] What were their criticisms of your dossier?

00:40:34.390 - 00:40:44.530

[BS] They couldn't understand how Sexuality and Women's Studies and Family Studies and theory and family policy were related.

00:40:44.530 - 00:40:55.970

How could that be a program? It didn't seem to them that I had focus. How did my work fit together?

00:40:55.970 - 00:41:02.690

And one of the things I did for my dossier then was to go through and make a chart, show how everything related in teaching, research,

00:41:02.690 - 00:41:09.140

and service in these areas and then how they related to each other. Because of course, interdisciplinary work is

00:41:09.140 - 00:41:17.280

harder to understand than single disciplinary work. [EW] And Women's Studies is very interdisciplinary in its nature. [BS] Oh yeah.

00:41:17.280 - 00:41:26.630

And they didn't see, Home Economics was too. I was coming out of an interdisciplinary area and then into another interdiscipline area. And then I was going to be looked at by

00:41:26.630 - 00:41:33.950

people out of Chemistry and History and some of those areas that really had a strong sense of discipline.

00:41:33.950 - 00:41:42.650

But also if I'd seen somebody else's dossier, I might have written it different. At least that was my feeling is that it was sort of... And they, you know, there weren't

00:41:42.650 - 00:41:50.660

many directions about what to include. And at times we used to include too much, you know, they'd say, "It looks like you brought

00:41:50.660 - 00:41:56.150

it in with a wheelbarrow." Because we'd be afraid that if we didn't bring something, then somebody would say, "Well, did you do any of that?"

00:41:56.150 - 00:42:07.880

You know. But it's really developed into a pretty... There's enough checks and balances that I think people get a pretty fair shake.

00:42:07.880 - 00:42:14.840

Once in a while, somebody gets hurt. But in general, I think the faculty governance part has really

00:42:14.840 - 00:42:25.880

become important on campus and ethical and pretty strong. But it, but you know, it's funny. Each thing we did was anything, any of

00:42:25.880 - 00:42:31.970

us did, was the first time anybody did it. Right? So whenever you're the first person doing something.

00:42:31.970 - 00:42:36.770

So I didn't know, I didn't know Marian at that time. I got to know her later, and we were very close friends.

00:42:36.770 - 00:42:44.090

But at the time I was doing that, I didn't know her and I would have felt strange walking over and say, "Well, what did you put in your dossier?"

00:42:44.090 - 00:42:58.940

But, we worked out ways to help each other and we do, have run workshops and things, ever since. [EW] Now, you mentioned that being within an interdisciplinary field,

00:42:58.940 - 00:43:09.040

that really had a strong impact on how it was viewed by other people in administration. And...? [BS] Yeah,

00:43:09.040 - 00:43:17.510

and I have to say that one of the things that's also been very important in my career is that I've had a wonderful set of colleagues in

00:43:17.510 - 00:43:29.570

the major academic organizations related to my field, in Sociology. National Council on Family Relations, Groves Conference on Marriage and Family,

00:43:29.570 - 00:43:39.290

a whole group... American Economics Association, for many years. A whole group of people nationally and then later internationally,

00:43:39.290 - 00:43:50.600

that, who were really helpful in bucking up my sense of feeling like what I was doing was meaningful and right. I wasn't completely dependent upon

00:43:50.600 - 00:44:01.190

whether or not an administrator at Delaware, thought what I was doing was exciting. You know, I had other sources of support from that.

00:44:01.190 - 00:44:07.570

And I think the other thing that happened out of that was that even very early, I had opportunities

00:44:07.570 - 00:44:19.090

to do things internationally. You see 1971, 1972, 1973 is when this is starting. In 1970, I went to a conference for

00:44:19.090 - 00:44:24.790

the Groves Conference of Marriage and the Family that was entirely on sex roles. Cynthia Epstein ran

00:44:24.790 - 00:44:39.190

the little workshop that I was in. Rose Summerfield was there. Jesse Bernard, you know, many of these people who later became

00:44:39.190 - 00:44:51.870

very important people in Women's Studies were in this group that I belong to. And already I had those kinds of colleagues that early. By 1975,

00:44:51.870 - 00:45:01.240

Groves Conference had organized under the direction of Dr. Martin Sussman a conference in Dubrovnik, Yugoslavia.

00:45:01.240 - 00:45:09.650

And it was the first international conference on sex roles. So I delivered a paper there. Well, see being able to deliver paper

00:45:09.650 - 00:45:26.070

in 1970 on feminist ideas, and having a place to do that, that was, oh, what you would say legitimized that kind of discussion.

00:45:26.070 - 00:45:32.630

And the one I did for, I was looking at it the other day because we're writing a history of the Groves Conference.

00:45:32.630 - 00:45:43.930

The one that I wrote for Dubrovnik was on mandated sexual changes and how that affects women in dual career families.

00:45:43.930 - 00:45:51.860

Because that was the point at which universities and companies were being forced to have maternity leave policies. They were

00:45:51.860 - 00:46:01.690

being forced to have open advertisement of jobs and things like that. And you can't imagine

00:46:01.690 - 00:46:10.100

how angry that made people. Not Women's Studies people, but other people. It made them very angry that the universities were changing,

00:46:10.100 - 00:46:19.040

that the companies were changing, and that many things that had been done by networks of kind of closed-networks

00:46:19.040 - 00:46:29.900

of important men were being opened up. But at the same time, I was in a position where I had situations where I could go talk

00:46:29.900 - 00:46:39.570

about these things or go present on these kinds of topics and be considered appropriate in my field.

00:46:39.570 - 00:46:50.570

I didn't have to wait until American Sociological Review wanted a paper in that area. You know, I didn't

00:46:50.570 - 00:46:58.290

have to wait for that. I could and there were other ways that I could get some of those things recognized.

00:46:58.290 - 00:47:03.620

[EW] What ways did you go about having that recognized? [BS] Well, I'm just saying that I could submit

00:47:03.620 - 00:47:11.120

a paper to Groves Conference, and I could have it accepted and I could go and deliver it and be on the same program

00:47:11.120 - 00:47:23.510

with all sorts of people that I respected in the field of Family Studies. And I didn't have to say, "Is it all right for me to talk about

00:47:23.510 - 00:47:32.970

Women's Studies?" It was okay. It was part of what they were doing. They were one of the groups that were early to support.

00:47:32.970 - 00:47:41.540

And of course they had been early to support integration and other things too. They were kind of change agents in places, and they were one of the first,

00:47:41.540 - 00:47:47.610

but some of these institutions were some of the first to support things like sexuality education.

00:47:47.610 - 00:48:00.350

So some of these things kind of go together. [EW] Right. Now, so you, I believe it was in 1973, 1974, the Women's Studies Interdisciplinary

00:48:00.350 - 00:48:07.200

Committee was formalized and the Commission of Studies, on the Status of Women was as well. [BS] I believe I was on both of those. [EW] Yes.

00:48:07.200 - 00:48:13.350

[BS] Yeah. [EW] Now, was your relationship with, did you have a relationship with both these committees?

00:48:13.350 - 00:48:22.730

[BS] I think so because I went back and looked in my... again in this promotion dossier, it had. And I think they had different missions.

00:48:22.730 - 00:48:30.130

I'm trying to sort out in my mind what one was. One was sort of more about organizing Women's Studies.

00:48:30.130 - 00:48:36.290

And the other was more the one that was on the what is it called, the Commission on Women or something like that? [EW] The Commission

00:48:36.290 - 00:48:42.760

on the Status of Women? [BS] Yes. And that was much more on how are women treated in general at the University.

00:48:42.760 - 00:48:50.600

And they were looking at students. They were looking at graduate students. They were looking at staff. They were looking at the whole

00:48:50.600 - 00:49:06.440

equity kind of thing. I think it's hard to realize how firmly it was embedded in academic life that departments that had a lot of women in

00:49:06.440 - 00:49:17.430

them could expect to have lower wages and heavier workloads. That is Nursing, Home Economics, Teaching, all of those areas.

00:49:17.430 - 00:49:25.870

And so as this began to break open in terms of the change around status of women, there was a real sense

00:49:25.870 - 00:49:34.760

that that had to stop, that you had to find some way to break in and have a bit more equity. It's been very hard and

00:49:34.760 - 00:49:42.470

it's still not gone. I mean, if you want to look at the new academe that came out this year. Still not gone on the university campus.

00:49:42.470 - 00:49:49.240

There's still a difference between the average wage for women and the average wage for men in each of the ranks.

00:49:49.240 - 00:49:59.600

But it's narrower. It's not as bad as it was. And it's also clear that people are not self-satisfied about it. They're not happy

00:49:59.600 - 00:50:07.420

to know that that is maintained. But there's a lot of things people do. A lot of people don't have much head for money.

00:50:07.420 - 00:50:16.310

One thing about women is that they really can count money And even though they might not know how to advocate for themselves individually,

00:50:16.310 - 00:50:24.230

women do much better sometimes advocating for a whole class of people. Like I found it was much easier in my work

00:50:24.230 - 00:50:33.320

in the union to advocate for a fair salary structure for everybody and for there to be not just merit salary,

00:50:33.320 - 00:50:42.350

but across the board increments that kept pace with inflation. You know, those kinds of things. I could do that a lot easier than I could

00:50:42.350 - 00:50:51.980

walk into my Dean's office and say, "Well, what are you going to do to make up for the fact that you didn't pay me my bump for getting

00:50:51.980 - 00:51:05.980

my tenure?" Because that was the year that Richard Nixon said that he didn't want, (Phone rings off-camera) him didn't want to have people give

00:51:05.980 - 00:51:12.710

salary increments because there was a fear of inflation. Well, it said in my letter that they'd make it up later,

00:51:12.710 - 00:51:18.440

but they never did. They never came back and gave that. So that little piece of money that you're missing

00:51:18.440 - 00:51:31.850

1 year, over 15 years. if your salary is figured on it, then it divides. (Man talking off-camera) [EW] If you want to pause for a moment.

00:51:31.850 - 00:51:37.700

[BS] Yeah, could we? [EW] Yeah, we'll just keep it running though, that's fine. [BS] Yeah, That's still going now. Where would you like to go with where I was?

00:51:37.700 - 00:51:51.110

[EW] I guess if you want to expand on... [BS] The status of women? [EW] Yeah, if you could expand a bit on the status of women? [BS] Okay, I'll go over that. (Andy Settles speaking off-camera)

00:51:51.110 - 00:52:06.320

[EW] I guess you were right, students do call here often, huh? [BS] Who was that? Who was that, Andy? [BS] Nothing I need to worry about? [AS] Who are you going to vote for? [BS] Huh? What did you say?

00:52:06.320 - 00:52:15.020

[EW] They asked who you were voting for? [BS] Oh! Oh, shoot! That's another funny thing too. [EW] Well, how about that? You don't have to tell

00:52:15.020 - 00:52:23.900

them who you're voting for. [BS] No, that's right. [EW] It's a very private ballot. [BS] That's right, it is. I forgot of some other things that were happening at that time.

00:52:23.900 - 00:52:31.130

Let me go back and speak to this problem, the status of women. I think one of the things that's hard to realize is that it's been

00:52:31.130 - 00:52:39.110

hard-fought for women to be able to feel that they are not going to be harassed. Or that they're not going to have

00:52:39.110 - 00:52:51.430

to defend themselves for doing something that everybody else does. I can remember in graduate school I had one very seductive and charismatic teacher

00:52:51.430 - 00:53:02.110

who just always hit on everybody. And that was a woman in his classes. He didn't have very many women because he was teaching educational administration.

00:53:02.110 - 00:53:09.610

So they were like, you know, 90 men and there were 2 of us from Home Economics or Education, right? And I remember

00:53:09.610 - 00:53:17.080

one semester, when I was taking a class with him, Sister Angelina was also taking it because she was

00:53:17.080 - 00:53:23.350

going to go back home and be president of a college. And she'd been sent to get her PhD so that she

00:53:23.350 - 00:53:34.360

was able to be this college president. And she was talking about this guy. And the fact that I thought he was, didn't have very good boundaries.

00:53:34.360 - 00:53:42.180

And Sister Angelina said, "Oh, he's been hitting on me too. Don't think that you're the only one." [EW] Now was Sister Angelina a ...?

00:53:42.180 - 00:53:46.790

[BS] A nun. Right. [EW] She was a friend of yours? [BS] She was. She was in the same program I was and she was getting

00:53:46.790 - 00:53:52.280

a PhD and we'd end she really was going on to be an administrator. They just thought that everybody

00:53:52.280 - 00:53:57.840

in Home Economics would go out and be an administrator because they didn't have enough administrators at that time.

00:53:57.840 - 00:54:04.790

I never really was the right person for administration, as I'm sure many administrators would tell you.

00:54:04.790 - 00:54:16.220

[EW] Why do you think you were not a very good administrator? [BS] Because I was very much on the frontline of these changes. And, you know, you have,

00:54:16.220 - 00:54:25.900

if you have a fairly strong record in collective bargaining. I was Chair of Faculty Welfare and Privilege when we had

00:54:25.900 - 00:54:42.520

a very difficult case of an administrator who had a problem with with sexual harassment. And he was the person who was supposed to enforce

00:54:42.520 - 00:54:52.770

that brakes to keep sexual harassment down. But in his own department, he didn't have any rules. He didn't and he certainly didn't

00:54:52.770 - 00:54:59.910

follow the ones across campus. So I was involved in a lot of hot topics and a lot of things. And and of course, see,

00:54:59.910 - 00:55:09.300

I got tenure really early. You know, I came in as an Associate Professor and I got tenure very early. So I was often the person that would be

00:55:09.300 - 00:55:18.340

the person who could speak out because I am tenure already. There are a lot of people didn't. And I remember on the sex education stuff,

00:55:18.340 - 00:55:27.470

we had a nice funding for a workshop to put the course together during the winter session. And that was the winter session when

00:55:27.470 - 00:55:39.700

the Supreme Court ruling came down that was going to allow abortion. And we had to completely rework that lesson because it was,

00:55:39.700 - 00:55:48.200

it was out-of-date before, right in front of our eyes. But I was the person who turned on the film projector when we were

00:55:48.200 - 00:55:56.090

viewing films that we were trying to decide whether to use in class or not because I had tenure and nobody could say

00:55:56.090 - 00:56:05.990

anything to me about what we turned on. But other people felt really nervous about maybe if they were showing the film, somebody might take

00:56:05.990 - 00:56:14.620

a look at it askance. So I often was doing things that needed to be done because I could do them.

00:56:14.620 - 00:56:19.860

[EW] Right. So you think having tenure really impacted your, I guess, how

00:56:19.860 - 00:56:24.960

you threw your weight around? [BS] Well, yeah. I probably for a young person, I probably did throw

00:56:24.960 - 00:56:31.860

my weight around it a little more. And I also because I had been scared to death that one summer over the sex education thing.

00:56:31.860 - 00:56:42.070

I was also able to figure that I could fight the legislature too. I mean, at some level, I had to take stands. I got through those things.

00:56:42.070 - 00:56:51.600

Therefore, it was harder to scare me. Now that doesn't mean I wasn't scared, but it means I very often... If I thought something was

00:56:51.600 - 00:56:58.860

important, I would stand for it. [EW] Now you said that your Dean he backed you when the legislature had approached

00:56:58.860 - 00:57:09.930

you with-- [BS] And the Provost. [EW] And the Provost. Did you find that even though you were backed by your Dean and Provost, did it still maybe make you

00:57:09.930 - 00:57:17.880

think twice about the what you taught? [BS] It certainly made you aware that you could always be in a very risky position. People who teach things

00:57:17.880 - 00:57:27.730

like Home Economics or Nursing, or promote justice. Those kinds of areas like you're in, have to be the first frontline

00:57:27.730 - 00:57:36.930

for protecting academic freedom and the right to talk in your field about the things that you know.

00:57:36.930 - 00:57:45.930

And we can never, ever let that right be, go undefended, even if the person that's speaking makes us crazy.

00:57:45.930 - 00:57:53.100

You know, we have to always be on the frontline. And we've several times at AAUP and some other groups have brought to

00:57:53.100 - 00:58:08.060

campus speakers who've really stood for those kinds of principles and helped remind everybody that you can't be a #1 research top line university

00:58:08.060 - 00:58:14.340

unless you really do protect academic freedom. That has to be, I mean, you can talk all you want about

00:58:14.340 - 00:58:22.410

millions of dollars and big labs and stuff like that. But if you don't have ethics and if you don't have academic freedom,

00:58:22.410 - 00:58:29.450

you don't have a first-rate university. And so that's one of the things that I feel it has been very important on campus.

00:58:29.450 - 00:58:37.950

For a short period of time, I was at even Sigma Psi, which is one of the science honoraries and I was president of that a few years.

00:58:37.950 - 00:58:49.950

And one of the things they always did was bring to campus people who had results or findings in their research which hadn't been welcomed.

00:58:49.950 - 00:58:58.340

And had, they'd had to overcome opposition. They would bring people in like that to talk, you know. And it's very important for us to do that to help

00:58:58.340 - 00:59:11.860

both students and the community know that things are important. We brought some people from the Austrian Institute of Family Studies

00:59:11.860 - 00:59:22.720

to talk about sex education on our campus. Because in Europe they do so much more parent involvement and much, much more comprehensive sex education

00:59:22.720 - 00:59:29.400

than we have. And, you know, we didn't go out and court the newspapers to come and cover us. But we didn't make sure that a

00:59:29.400 - 00:59:40.360

lot of people from the community got a chance to meet these people and to see that kind of program, its effectiveness and what it consisted of.

00:59:40.360 - 00:59:45.880

And we've done a lot of those kinds of things. I've also done a lot in terms of international work on campus too.

00:59:45.880 - 00:59:52.470

And I would say probably that's where my work kind of went to in Women's Studies, as I went, more and more into

00:59:52.470 - 01:00:04.590

the international and global aspects of family and in women's rights. Very exciting kind of stuff. [EW] What excites you most about

01:00:04.590 - 01:00:12.050

the international aspect of Women's Studies? [BS] Well, I just, I have colleagues from all around the world that I just,

01:00:12.050 - 01:00:18.120

they're so supportive and it's so interesting to see what they're doing and to meet their graduate students and have

01:00:18.120 - 01:00:28.320

our graduate students meet them. And we, I was 2 terms the president of the committee on family research

01:00:28.320 - 01:00:34.740

of the International Sociological Association. And we did fabulous meetings

01:00:34.740 - 01:00:40.560

and all sorts of interesting places. They still do that. But while I was there, we went to Israel,

01:00:40.560 - 01:00:50.580

we went to South Africa. We had some very interesting things in Europe. We were in Austria and Norway.

01:00:50.580 - 01:00:58.290

And you know, just a lot of different settings and on a lot of different topics. Because like, you know,

01:00:58.290 - 01:01:03.600

you can talk about Women's Studies in terms of a sort of a generic Women's Studies. But there's also so many

01:01:03.600 - 01:01:10.770

interesting topics within like work and family is one that many of my students have been interested in.

01:01:10.770 - 01:01:18.120

And we've had several, we had a great meeting in Portugal on work and family that one of my doctoral students is finishing up

01:01:18.120 - 01:01:26.190

her dissertation now, gave a paper, and we got it published. And she met all these people from around the world.

01:01:26.190 - 01:01:39.360

And so she has kind of a network that she's put together. So I think to me that's been sort of, it's been like the

01:01:39.360 - 01:01:46.080

same kind of principles as which we did on campus, you can do worldwide. And it, and it's again,

01:01:46.080 - 01:01:57.990

it's finding a group of people and, and helping each other and, and being collegial and, and also just getting those insights that

01:01:57.990 - 01:02:07.960

come from seeing how similar problems are handled differently in different places, I think is really fascinating.

01:02:07.960 - 01:02:20.550

But I think Women's Studies on campus today is much more of a preparation for a particular kind of career path.

01:02:20.550 - 01:02:27.680

And I think many people who take that as an undergraduate may not go on in Women's Studies at the graduate level,

01:02:27.680 - 01:02:37.910

but it informs whatever discipline they go into at the graduate level, if they want to go on. Or it leads them into some kind of professional training

01:02:37.910 - 01:02:44.390

in which they are doing program work. [EW] It seems to me that a lot of Women's Studies come together, as you mentioned,

01:02:44.390 - 01:02:50.850

by the culmination of people who support each other and really try and bring these initiatives together

01:02:50.850 - 01:03:02.470

Did you find that this is true of maybe Women's Studies programs in other countries as well? [BS] Well, I think to some extent I have...

01:03:02.470 - 01:03:09.450

and this is really funny because Americans, they're always thinking that either they're the best or the worst. They never have any idea

01:03:09.450 - 01:03:18.480

that they could be in between. But one of the things is that women have had opportunities in the United States to really

01:03:18.480 - 01:03:26.590

be true members of the Academy. They've had the chance to be tenured. They've had the chance to be Full Professors.

01:03:26.590 - 01:03:35.340

Some of them have even wandered into administration and have had some good experiences there. Some good, some bad. But they've had

01:03:35.340 - 01:03:44.550

a chance to get beyond a... Well, what I'm... I took a course in the history of the university when I was in graduate school.

01:03:44.550 - 01:03:52.900

And this man was talking about Salamanca and all the, you know, the whole business of how the medieval universities developed.

01:03:52.900 - 01:04:01.160

And then he said in that class, he said, "Well, you have to remember that women are guests at the university."

01:04:01.160 - 01:04:13.920

That universities were designed to be monasteries that opened up into places of study and scholarship. And they did not originally think even

01:04:13.920 - 01:04:21.960

that the scholars would not be religious people. You any... if... While you were scholar, you actually were considered

01:04:21.960 - 01:04:28.110

part of the religious community. Even if you were going, not going to stay in the religious community. And you know, from that standpoint,

01:04:28.110 - 01:04:39.420

his sense was that one of the reasons women have sort of an anomalous quality in universities is that people

01:04:39.420 - 01:04:47.400

are never quite sure whether to take them seriously or not. Now I wish that I could say that this is the terrible thing

01:04:47.400 - 01:04:57.600

about American universities, but I have to say that in some respects, American academic women have had more opportunity to be taken

01:04:57.600 - 01:05:05.340

seriously than in other parts of the world. And what you see happening in Europe, for example, is that the women who get

01:05:05.340 - 01:05:16.960

PhDs who are really good scientists, end up in these institutes of science and they do very well. They write really wonderful papers.

01:05:16.960 - 01:05:24.120

I see them over and over again, but I never see them with their graduate students, because they very seldom get

01:05:24.120 - 01:05:33.930

asked to be in the university. And, and my, most of my colleagues that I know who are

01:05:33.930 - 01:05:42.830

in the university environment, There's a lot of women who are very smart and into doing a lot of research. But the way that's been organized,

01:05:42.830 - 01:05:51.350

it still keeps that, it keeps women out of the university. And it's very tough. I now know a couple young women

01:05:51.350 - 01:05:59.780

in Germany who are trying to really get in on the ground floor and be real professors. And it's been very hard slogging and they've

01:05:59.780 - 01:06:06.590

had a wonderful guy who has been sponsoring them. But it's not easy. And as you go around the world,

01:06:06.590 - 01:06:14.390

you'll find women in many universities working very hard. You'll see some really important Women's Studies work being done

01:06:14.390 - 01:06:26.970

in Europe and in England particularly. But you don't see, the question to ask is: How many of them are permanent members of the academic Academy?

01:06:26.970 - 01:06:34.320

And that's one of the things we've got to keep working on. Any it has to be possible for women who take, who are specializing in

01:06:34.320 - 01:06:44.490

Women's Studies to also have tenured appointments. It's not right if those positions don't eventually have with them,

01:06:44.490 - 01:06:51.030

enough of them have with them, some tenure. And it can't be just that you're tenured in the Psych department or some other

01:06:51.030 - 01:06:56.750

department. You ought to be able to be tendered in Women's Studies. And I think that's happening a little more now, but...

01:06:56.750 - 01:07:06.610

[EW] How did the tenure at UD's Women's Studies, how do professors, did they face a lot of challenges going after a tenure track?

01:07:06.610 - 01:07:14.050

[BS] Well, I think people were really nervous. Joyce Walstedt was one of our early directors. I think you saw that in the literature.

01:07:14.050 - 01:07:22.140

[EW] Mm-hm. [BS] And she had a... She was a psychologist and she had a good program of research going in Psychology. And when she was invited to come here,

01:07:22.140 - 01:07:30.540

she was hired half-time in Psych and half-time in Women's Studies. And it was very difficult for her because she

01:07:30.540 - 01:07:36.210

felt to some extent any time she was really working in Women's Studies, it was not contributing to

01:07:36.210 - 01:07:47.190

her career in Psychology. Or that people weren't counting it. And I was on the committee that reviewed her for promotion and we did agree to promote her.

01:07:47.190 - 01:07:54.850

But eventually what she did was she went back to the Psychology department full-time, because she couldn't, it was too hard.

01:07:54.850 - 01:08:01.020

[EW] She couldn't balance it? [BS] Well, possibly because of whatever her, I've forgotten what her topic was, it might have been

01:08:01.020 - 01:08:07.590

that her topic didn't mesh. You know, it's a lot easier to do these interdisciplinary things if the topics you're working on mesh.

01:08:07.590 - 01:08:15.180

And very early I, I sort of used family policy as the umbrella to hold a lot of different things

01:08:15.180 - 01:08:21.840

I worked on together. And then I could sort of you know, women's policy that's another family policy.

01:08:21.840 - 01:08:27.210

You know, I could make those things fit, but not everybody could. And it shouldn't have to be

01:08:27.210 - 01:08:34.770

that everybody has to be able to do that. But it should be that if you work full-time in Women's Studies,

01:08:34.770 - 01:08:39.390

you should be able to be tenured in that department. And I think that's true in the way they have been organized.

01:08:39.390 - 01:08:44.950

I'm not positive. But I think these, like they have a couple of new positions that they've filled.

01:08:44.950 - 01:08:54.540

[EW] I think actually the first women to be tenure tracked at UD, I believe it wasn't until the-- [BS] In the 1990s, I think.

01:08:54.540 - 01:09:03.060

[EW] Later in the 1980s, I think or 1990s. I know I had it. [BS] I saw it... it was fairly late. and I and I think that was one of

01:09:03.060 - 01:09:20.160

the things, and we also had a bit of a, you know, to a certain extent, people like the Dean had it was it was kind of like

01:09:20.160 - 01:09:29.580

whoever the immediate supervisor that the person who was in Women's Studies had to report to. If that person was really

01:09:29.580 - 01:09:38.990

favorable then a lot of things could be done. If they somehow couldn't carry the message to the next level positively enough, it might... We had sometimes when

01:09:38.990 - 01:09:47.100

there was a pretty short amount of money. I mean, we've had sometimes when there was enough money and sometimes when there wasn't.

01:09:47.100 - 01:09:55.190

And oftentimes these kinds of programs get trimmed when... You know, like we have these new budget rules on campus now.

01:09:55.190 - 01:10:03.740

And I don't know whether they'll be friendly to Women's Studies or not because they reward certain kinds

01:10:03.740 - 01:10:17.240

of courses, and certain kinds of... like uh... Whether Women's Studies will ever have a major research arm. It could. They could have

01:10:17.240 - 01:10:25.700

a center for Women's Studies research. But I don't think we've gotten to the point that that's, that's not the part that's, that's not where

01:10:25.700 - 01:10:33.350

our strength has been. Our strength has been mostly in teaching. [EW] Do you think that's also why a lot of women have been, like you said,

01:10:33.350 - 01:10:40.670

you had your keys taken the one summer and you have a huge courseload, and you're not given the research opportunities.

01:10:40.670 - 01:10:47.490

Do you think that also has led to some of the reasons why there's a pay gap and why there has been some resistance?

01:10:47.490 - 01:10:53.520

[BS] Well, my sense is that some of those things were just structural to begin with. They didn't have anything to do with me.

01:10:53.520 - 01:11:00.420

I mean, my keys weren't taken away from me because I was a woman. It was because everybody on 9-month in that college was

01:11:00.420 - 01:11:05.160

assumed that you wouldn't stay and do research. They didn't have any idea that you'd do research.

01:11:05.160 - 01:11:12.030

It took a long time even for them to understand that they changed the kind of place they were having. So you know, I think there

01:11:12.030 - 01:11:22.110

certainly were people who individually didn't understand. They were trying to get it, you know, Home Economics was broken

01:11:22.110 - 01:11:28.470

up during this phase. You know, instead of treasuring Home Economics, and taking care of it, and saying this is

01:11:28.470 - 01:11:33.510

one of the successful women's programs. It was thought that the most important thing to do was to see

01:11:33.510 - 01:11:43.340

if you could break it up and move the pieces in different places. So we have Nutrition is over with Phys Ed. And Textiles and Clothing

01:11:43.340 - 01:11:53.690

now is over in Arts and Science. And Hotel Management is over in, first it was in CHEP,

01:11:53.690 - 01:12:02.360

but then it's now over in Business. And in that whole breaking up of that college and thinking that they wanted

01:12:02.360 - 01:12:06.900

to do something about it. I don't know. There was at one point, they had a couple of guys,

01:12:06.900 - 01:12:18.830

Lippard and Dilley. Dilley was a liberal arts person and Lippard was a chemist, biochemist. And they were asked to

01:12:18.830 - 01:12:26.880

investigate our college and figure out what should be done about it. And they came to give their report, and we were furious.

01:12:26.880 - 01:12:34.620

We just thought they were totally crackpots. And so, you know, they started getting back from this group,

01:12:34.620 - 01:12:40.740

a whole bunch of anger they hadn't expected as they were trying to say what they thought would be great for us to do in the future.

01:12:40.740 - 01:12:49.560

And I can remember one of them saying, "Well ladies, we just don't quite understand what you want." And I can remember,

01:12:49.560 - 01:13:00.270

I think it was me. It might not have been me, said, "First of all, why don't you refer to us as faculty?

01:13:00.270 - 01:13:11.880

We aren't your ladies." And it was that sort of thing where it's, you know, some of it is people do it on purpose,

01:13:11.880 - 01:13:20.790

but an awful lot of it is they don't even recognize. And they still don't. People still don't recognize when they're being sexist.

01:13:20.790 - 01:13:31.740

It just isn't, I mean, girls in your age, women of your age, I must say, women of your age still get some of this crazy stuff.

01:13:31.740 - 01:13:39.420

[EW] Totally. [BS] Somebody will look at you and say, 'Well, you need to give me a smile, lady, what's the matter with you? Give me a smile."

01:13:39.420 - 01:13:44.790

And until you give them a smile, they won't let up, right? Because once you give them a smile, you've given them

01:13:44.790 - 01:13:51.120

the deference that they need. And you know, or they'll tell some rotten joke and you don't laugh. And, "Well,

01:13:51.120 - 01:13:59.190

what do you b*tch." Not talking about. You know, "You don't get my humor? You don't want my humor?" Well, the fact that that stuff still

01:13:59.190 - 01:14:07.560

exists means that it's changed a lot, but it isn't, it's still around a lot more than it ought to be.

01:14:07.560 - 01:14:15.930

Considering that we're pretty sure we didn't want any of that in 1968. We're pretty sure my mother

01:14:15.930 - 01:14:21.990

was probably pretty sure we didn't want any of that in 1948 or 1938 or 1928. I mean, women have known they

01:14:21.990 - 01:14:32.910

didn't find those kinds of things helpful or humorous. But it's been very difficult to change the perceptions.

01:14:32.910 - 01:14:44.790

Are you familiar with that Massachusetts Institute of Technology study? [EW] Uh, I'm not aware of it. [BS] It was done very recently when

01:14:44.790 - 01:14:54.000

Larry Summers was still president of Harvard. A group of women in technical areas kind of got to talking to each other about

01:14:54.000 - 01:14:59.580

the fact that they still felt that they weren't getting their fair share. And what they talked about

01:14:59.580 - 01:15:07.020

was that they felt like their labs were not as well-equipped, were not as large, that they didn't get as much help

01:15:07.020 - 01:15:13.990

with equipment and stuff from the University. But when they brought in grants, that other people used their equipment, right?

01:15:13.990 - 01:15:24.330

And so they sat down and did a real study. They got up the tape measure and measured everybody's lab. And they were able to show that women at

01:15:24.330 - 01:15:34.140

MIT have smaller labs than men, less equipment. They were able to show it statistically with hard measures, right?

01:15:34.140 - 01:15:41.550

[EW] Tangible items. [BS] Tangible. And this is the same time then that Larry Summers at Harvard says, "We can't understand why there's

01:15:41.550 - 01:15:50.610

so few women in Science. It must be something about women." I don't know if you remember that either. But that was,

01:15:50.610 - 01:15:57.700

that I remember things like that. Those are things I hear and I remember. So here that's, in the 2000s. [EW] Right.

01:15:57.700 - 01:16:08.280

[BS] People are still fighting those kinds of differences. And it's, sometimes it's so tiny and so little,

01:16:08.280 - 01:16:21.240

but it's those little digs that add up to continue some inequities that we want to get rid of them. But I also think that one of

01:16:21.240 - 01:16:27.040

the things I felt very comfortable with is that I feel like Women's Studies on our campus is well-established,

01:16:27.040 - 01:16:35.170

well-institutionalized. If I don't turn up at a meeting, some meeting they're having, it's not the end of the world.

01:16:35.170 - 01:16:42.080

There's somebody else that will turn up, you know, so I mean, I feel like I can participate, but I don't feel like I'm

01:16:42.080 - 01:16:50.610

the necessary pillar that without it, it goes away. On the other hand, something like sex education. I figure that if I'm not at some meeting,

01:16:50.610 - 01:16:57.900

something bad could happen because that's not as big, that's not as big a group of people who rally around

01:16:57.900 - 01:17:06.060

that particular topic. It's sad. I feel the same way about Gerontology, that I need to speak for that field on our campus

01:17:06.060 - 01:17:16.530

because it's not well-recognized. But I feel very comfortable about the fact that Women's Studies on our campus has become better institutionalized and it

01:17:16.530 - 01:17:26.590

has a kind of ability to reconstitute itself, to bring new people in. You know, that's a really strong part of our program.

01:17:26.590 - 01:17:38.220

[EW] Now, what do you think has been, I guess, what do you think has been the most significant contribution that Women's Studies has brought to UD?

01:17:38.220 - 01:17:56.380

[BS] Well, I think it's a continuing showcasing of women's scholarship. I think it's also

01:17:56.540 - 01:18:09.630

never let it sort of sink out of sight, you know, because it's always there. It... there's... many issues are addressed before they get out of hand.

01:18:09.630 - 01:18:18.620

And I think some of the collegial things where people who have come together and written and done things in their,

01:18:18.620 - 01:18:28.140

you know, in their professional fields that came out of it. I think some of those things, or maybe as powerful as just the whole

01:18:28.140 - 01:18:37.960

sense that we offer a good minor now, and a pretty good major because it's that bringing people together and supporting them.

01:18:37.960 - 01:18:49.470

That I think is both the key to its success and the key to making a difference at the University. And you have to recognize that, you know,

01:18:49.470 - 01:18:59.400

it's faculty governance. It's the union. It's a whole series of other kinds of things that have developed with Women's Studies,

01:18:59.400 - 01:19:10.050

with the impact of so many faculty having Women's Studies experience, then when they're working in these other committees

01:19:10.050 - 01:19:22.280

and things there, they have that enlightenment that they bring to other problems. You know, just that we have women, you have women feeling

01:19:22.280 - 01:19:30.290

empowered to do things. [EW] Now you are in Human Development and-- [BS] Family Studies. [EW] And Family Studies.

01:19:30.290 - 01:19:40.670

Do you find that that holds true for your department as well? [BS] Well, our department has always been pretty well-balanced in terms of faculty.

01:19:40.670 - 01:19:54.410

You know, we have both men and women on our faculty. I think as a department, we've had to fight quite a lot to be recognized and to be understood.

01:19:54.410 - 01:20:02.830

I think there's a tendency sometimes for people decide what you really should specialize in something, you know, family is too broad.

01:20:02.830 - 01:20:11.280

And so, you know, let's put it all into Child Development. Or let's put it all into Youth Work or whatever. And not really understanding

01:20:11.280 - 01:20:22.800

that Family is a life course perspective. And this is a perspective on the Family. And that we really are concerned about a lot of

01:20:22.800 - 01:20:29.040

different applications in terms of information that comes out of Psych and Soc, and some of these other things, but

01:20:29.040 - 01:20:37.650

also that's tested against what it means for families as process, because a lot of people, you know,

01:20:37.650 - 01:20:46.740

get up pretty tight on they think, "Well, maternal attachment that takes care of everything." Right? Well, if you really look at Family,

01:20:46.740 - 01:20:54.120

you realize that it's not just maternal attachment. Fathers are attached to know in that period of time,

01:20:54.120 - 01:21:03.690

almost every man is at his baby's birth and holds his baby from the first moment. And all of the grandparents are

01:21:03.690 - 01:21:13.840

standing outside wanting their turn, right? You know, it's it's a far more complex kind of thing. And when people are single parents or

01:21:13.840 - 01:21:20.460

gay and lesbian couples or whatever, all these different kinds of structural changes, step-parents and so forth,

01:21:20.460 - 01:21:30.720

the complexity in families is a really important piece. And the place of fictive can people who are friends and who serve in,

01:21:30.720 - 01:21:38.820

in family kinds of roles. That's all very important stuff. But it's often a little harder to put forward

01:21:38.820 - 01:21:46.800

and to explain to people who are looking for something they can count, you know. How do you count? Well, you know, "What's your specialty?"

01:21:46.800 - 01:21:57.420

is still the question as it was when I went up for my promotion to Full Professor was. "What's your specialty?" My specialty, is Family.

01:21:57.420 - 01:22:05.610

And so I'm very much, of course interested in Women's Studies, of course interested in sexuality, of course interested in

01:22:05.610 - 01:22:12.510

schools and communities. You know, I have those kinds of interests. But that's a hard piece for universities to really

01:22:12.510 - 01:22:21.480

deal with, because they say they want interdisciplinary studies, but it kind of scares them when an interdisciplinary studies is pretty strong.

01:22:21.480 - 01:22:26.580

And so, you know, that's what Women's Studies has to watch out for, is that somebody doesn't get a little bit frightened

01:22:26.580 - 01:22:35.020

about them because they're successful. They've got to keep their eyes open and, and keep promoting what they're doing

01:22:35.020 - 01:22:40.410

and making sure that people understand what they are doing. [EW] In your experience, what frightens them about

01:22:40.410 - 01:22:51.420

interdisciplinary fields like Women's Studies? [BS] Well, it's hard for somebody to quickly in 5 minutes know what's going on. If somebody says to me,

01:22:51.420 - 01:22:59.610

"Write me a short paragraph on what it is." And so you write a little short paragraph, "Well, I don't understand all of that?" And then you start to write what

01:22:59.610 - 01:23:07.580

it takes to explain it. And then somebody says, "Well, that doesn't make any sense to me. I want to know. I want a brand.

01:23:07.580 - 01:23:15.240

I want to brand that and be able to sell it. You know how the University has all these little sayings, idea, leadership and stuff.

01:23:15.240 - 01:23:21.120

They're looking for people who are looking for the short kinds of things. And Women's Studies has that problem.

01:23:21.120 - 01:23:29.220

They've got to have some of those short things that let people know how they're contributing. Because I think when people

01:23:29.220 - 01:23:39.960

begin to look at larger process things, you can't have such simple answers. You'd have to like, for example, one of the areas that I work a lot,

01:23:39.960 - 01:23:47.760

and it's the area of definition of family. Because definitions of families have been used to exclude families from social programs,

01:23:47.760 - 01:23:52.720

have been used to exclude them from healthcare, have been used to exclude them from immigration.

01:23:52.720 - 01:24:03.000

You know, the way you define a family legally is a way of putting some people in, and some people out. And I'm very fond of the family

01:24:03.000 - 01:24:10.510

as a concept that I'm not very fond of family as a way of rationing care. I don't, I don't... Or that somebody says, "Well,

01:24:10.510 - 01:24:18.030

we want really the traditional family here." And then you're always trying to figure out what that traditional family is, and it turns out to be,

01:24:18.030 - 01:24:31.730

the one they grew up in. Or that Dick and Jane and Spot and Puff reader that they had. They don't actually have any sense of what the variety and diversity of families are.

01:24:31.730 - 01:24:45.100

And so I think any field that has that kind of broad scope is, I mean, I think right now people think they know what Biology is,

01:24:45.100 - 01:24:52.650

but you know, Biology's become interdisciplinary. [EW] Absolutely. [BS] And Biochemistry. I think they even changed the name of the Chemistry department

01:24:52.650 - 01:25:07.950

this year to throw in a little Bio of some sort or to indicate that they're connected to some biological issues. Because as you get to be more

01:25:07.950 - 01:25:16.260

involved in these interdisciplinary things, you begin to see that you have to have these different viewpoints. But that's a lot harder than

01:25:16.260 - 01:25:25.110

having a, you know, "My area of specialty is zinc." [EW] Right. [BS] You know, you have to have something that's a broader

01:25:25.110 - 01:25:31.570

based kind of thing. And it's going in that direction. That's hard for administrators to know whether they

01:25:31.570 - 01:25:39.120

have got their handle on it. Because administration don't like to be surprised. They don't want to know. One thing that really don't want to know

01:25:39.120 - 01:25:45.210

is that you've been successful at something they didn't hear about it. So you need to keep them. That's one of things we need to do.

01:25:45.210 - 01:25:53.170

And that's very difficult for women. Women are not really used to promoting themselves. Very difficult to do.

01:25:53.170 - 01:26:01.700

[EW] Why do you think, and perhaps in your personal, you know, life experiences, why do you think it is that

01:26:01.700 - 01:26:09.770

women are-- [BS] I think, [EW] so keen to? [BS] I think women don't want to overstep their knowledge. They don't want to

01:26:09.770 - 01:26:15.380

be they don't want to say, they don't want to cut out for themselves something where they might have

01:26:15.380 - 01:26:20.580

oversold what they've done. They want to be really sure that what they're talking about is something that they're

01:26:20.580 - 01:26:27.860

completely on top of. They don't want to be in a situation where somebody could say, "Well, what about this?

01:26:27.860 - 01:26:33.770

You know, did you think of that?" So they're always trying to be on top of it because the sense I

01:26:33.770 - 01:26:43.200

always had was that if I was competent, that everything would work out right. You were asking I think in one of these sets of questions,

01:26:43.200 - 01:26:51.180

you said to me about the "click" experience. In some respects, I had a lot of good experiences

01:26:51.180 - 01:26:56.250

growing up that let me think. I was going to be able to do whatever I wanted to do. I was in junior leadership in 4-H.

01:26:56.250 - 01:27:06.300

They had all sorts of training of very much like the leadership major that we have today. In that time, I

01:27:06.300 - 01:27:18.720

had won a lot of prizes when I was in high school and got to take trips to National Club Congress in Chicago. And, you know, I just had a lot of things

01:27:18.720 - 01:27:31.800

which kind of built up who I was, and what I thought about myself. And, but I didn't really have, I mean, I had somewhat of an idea

01:27:31.800 - 01:27:38.520

that people didn't all think that women could do things. I remember in one of those trainings in junior leadership,

01:27:38.520 - 01:27:45.480

there was a boy in the group I was in who was very clear that his wife would never work outside the home. And I said, "Well, that will be very

01:27:45.480 - 01:27:50.640

interesting to see who you can find to be a wife, under those conditions." He said, "There'll be

01:27:50.640 - 01:28:00.150

a lot of girls who want to do that." I said, "Fine." Fine, you know, but I was slow for me to catch on that, just because I thought I

01:28:00.150 - 01:28:07.910

could do something didn't mean necessarily that everybody else thought it was okay. And there's this sort of thing that

01:28:07.910 - 01:28:14.770

nobody knows that you're being discriminated against, if you don't knock on a door that doesn't open.

01:28:14.770 - 01:28:20.970

If you never go to knock on the door, then you don't know you wouldn't have gotten in. And I think that's one of

01:28:20.970 - 01:28:29.440

the things that in my generation, a lot of women didn't knock on doors that because they were afraid they wouldn't open.

01:28:29.570 - 01:28:38.340

And, you know, occasionally I would, I suppose working my way through that first pregnancy, and holding onto my job

01:28:38.340 - 01:28:44.340

was my big "click" experience. That's when I learned that you did have to survive on your own and that

01:28:44.340 - 01:28:51.660

it did help to have a husband and a mother and some friends that would help you manage. [EW] Again the support system. [BS] Yeah.

01:28:51.660 - 01:29:00.360

But then my immediate thought was not to depend on family and friends in future, but to make sure there was policy change. And so by the time I had the second kid,

01:29:00.360 - 01:29:08.280

I could have had maternity leave if I'd wanted it. But I was much better off. I had the child during the summer.

01:29:08.280 - 01:29:16.440

That's the time that academic women can have babies is during summer. It doesn't interfere with all of these other policies.

01:29:16.440 - 01:29:30.090

But I think there are moments when you have sort of secondary "click" experiences. I know from, my husband had lymphoma when the kids

01:29:30.090 - 01:29:36.480

were in high school that point in our life and the first treatment seemed to work, but then it came back and

01:29:36.480 - 01:29:46.470

he had to have a bone marrow transplant. And there was some discussion about whether insurance would cover it or not. And I remember the doctor saying to me,

01:29:46.470 - 01:29:53.460

"Well, we'll try. We'll back you up. We'll tell them that this is not an experimental procedure." Right? And I thought, "Okay, that's good."

01:29:53.460 - 01:29:59.700

And then I am but, you know, I'm pretty nervous. But I remember waking up one morning and realizing

01:29:59.700 - 01:30:05.940

that I could mortgage the house and that would pay for it. And then I could fight them in the court afterward.

01:30:05.940 - 01:30:13.800

I could figure out. Now, I never had to mortgage the house. Once I knew I could mortgage the house, then I knew I could fight them, if I needed to.

01:30:13.800 - 01:30:22.830

And once people knew I could fight them, then I didn't have to fight. You know, there's this sort of, you know, what I'm saying is there's this-- [EW] You knocked on the door.

01:30:22.830 - 01:30:29.730

[BS] Yeah, you knock on the door. This time I knocked on the door, and I made it clear that I was coming through. And doing that,

01:30:29.730 - 01:30:36.930

I think for all of us, there are these moments where somebody says... Well, I mean, I don't think Andy could have been more

01:30:36.930 - 01:30:43.870

thrilled than to realize that I was working and that the kids could go to Delaware to college if something really bad happened.

01:30:43.870 - 01:30:50.100

You know, it was really it was really, you know, it's that moment when you realize that there's a lot of reasons you work,

01:30:50.100 - 01:30:58.170

even if you don't have an immediate financial problem. It's a part of the security of the modern family is for

01:30:58.170 - 01:31:08.220

both people to be working. And the fact that we could have a discussion. Was it just last week that Ann Romney was talking

01:31:08.220 - 01:31:17.270

about the fact that she made a choice to be a stay-at-home with her 5 boys, right? [EW] Right. [BS] And with her, millions of dollars was able to handle that,

01:31:17.270 - 01:31:25.960

but it was a lot of hard work, right? But the idea was that you couldn't possibly question a mother who stays home, right?

01:31:25.960 - 01:31:33.600

But, you know, she's a really... it's a really risky thing to do for most women, not to work. And I think we

01:31:33.600 - 01:31:41.640

haven't gotten to the point that we've really recognized that yes, it's a choice what work you do, but it's not necessarily for

01:31:41.640 - 01:31:48.330

most women a choice whether you need to work or not. Most women do need to work for a lot of different reasons.

01:31:48.330 - 01:31:58.500

And, just to me that that's still at that, you know, I think... I've had chills this winter when people are talking about rolling

01:31:58.500 - 01:32:06.090

back contraceptive availability. [EW] Mm-hm. [BS} How can that be? Even my mother had contraception available to her.

01:32:06.090 - 01:32:13.710

How could it be that today's young women would somehow not have contraception? And I'm just thinking that can't be true!

01:32:13.710 - 01:32:24.210

There's got to be some progress. But I guess what it says to us is that every bit of progress we've made is hard-won. And for Women's Studies,

01:32:24.210 - 01:32:33.120

we must remember that even though we thought we won some battles 40 years ago, which we did, that those battles are never

01:32:33.120 - 01:32:41.940

finished and that you're always having to have new recruits and new people and people with sufficient backbone to keep

01:32:41.940 - 01:32:51.780

standing up for those values. [EW] What do you think a Women's Studies major can provide to up and coming students who do

01:32:51.780 - 01:33:02.220

need that kind of support system to keep fighting the battles? [BS] Right. And also to provide some leadership to women on campus who

01:33:02.220 - 01:33:08.760

are in other majors too it's important for them to be able to interpret what they are getting to other people.

01:33:08.760 - 01:33:15.330

Because even though some people are not going to get a chance to have a Women's Studies major. I keep hoping everybody will

01:33:15.330 - 01:33:25.690

have at least a couple of courses in Women's Studies as part of their breadth of study. We need people to be helping others.

01:33:25.690 - 01:33:33.180

I mean, here's somebody who's trained in one of the STEMs. You know how they talk about Science, Engineering, Technology,

01:33:33.180 - 01:33:41.300

and Math, but they never talk about the real women, reason women avoid those is not that they can't do that work,

01:33:41.300 - 01:33:47.760

but they don't feel welcome. And they don't want to work at the bench. They want to be, if they work in those areas,

01:33:47.760 - 01:33:57.840

they want to work like everybody else. And it's still an area that hasn't really had its Women's Studies conversion. And I don't see how it's ever going to

01:33:57.840 - 01:34:09.090

be a good recruiting device until they do make some changes in those fields to make it possible for women to work in those fields

01:34:09.090 - 01:34:19.430

without feeling like they're unwelcome. And whatever they want to say, as long as the lab's a little smaller and the equipment is not as good,

01:34:19.430 - 01:34:27.000

you don't feel quite welcome. And so I think it's really important for the people who are in Women's Studies to see

01:34:27.000 - 01:34:36.930

themselves as leaders in that field and as consultants to other people who need that information. I think probably...

01:34:36.930 - 01:34:41.940

I haven't really looked at what all the requirements are, but I would suspect just like Human Services in

01:34:41.940 - 01:34:52.670

our department is a major that is pretty generic. That Women's Studies, probably, you could probably go to med school with it.

01:34:52.670 - 01:35:00.600

You could probably go to law school with it. You could probably do Political Science with it. [EW] Absolutely.

01:35:00.600 - 01:35:14.190

[BS] You know, I think that there are... It's definitely in the field of what I would call the liberal arts and sciences.

01:35:14.190 - 01:35:26.280

It has the breadth of that kind of background. And since it does have a bunch of History and stuff in it, it is somewhat revolutionary in

01:35:26.280 - 01:35:38.590

the academic and methodological ways they look at things. And you come out of that kind of a major with some new methods

01:35:38.590 - 01:35:50.140

which you can apply to other areas too. I mean, they're not just in Women's Studies, but if you can break away from the sense that everything has to be in one paradigm.

01:35:50.140 - 01:35:59.340

Yeah, I think that those, some of those skills, are very helpful in other fields as well. But it's... You know, I think again,

01:35:59.340 - 01:36:06.670

it's, you know, why do you study English? English is a great major too, but I think it's, I think it's a good one.

01:36:06.670 - 01:36:13.860

[EW] So what do you think Women's Studies still needs to address to get this message out? [BS] I think the one thing they have to

01:36:13.860 - 01:36:21.570

do is decide how they're going to relate to research and what they're going to do to encourage research that has

01:36:21.570 - 01:36:29.040

a focus on women's issues. That they have to take more responsibility in that field because the way they've been organized,

01:36:29.040 - 01:36:38.220

they've only been able to grab a little piece of people's teaching time, but they haven't really found a research piece.

01:36:38.220 - 01:36:43.770

I think they also probably have to get a bit of an extension piece in which they really say, "Well,

01:36:43.770 - 01:36:50.340

what are we going to do in the community?" That you can't just be Women's Studies for University of Delaware.

01:36:50.340 - 01:36:57.170

You have to have some service component, [EW] Right. [BS] That goes with it, if it's to be a well-rounded department. And,

01:36:57.170 - 01:37:04.890

I think it will be. I mean, because you have to start somewhere, but I think it has to have all the pieces of a real department.

01:37:04.890 - 01:37:15.750

It has to have service. It has to have research. And then I think the other thing it needs to do, just as we're trying to do here,

01:37:15.750 - 01:37:31.640

is tell a little of its own history. And, we need some shiny little brochures, and things of that nature which are on everybody's table.

01:37:31.640 - 01:37:40.820

Like we should be in Human Development and Family Studies having little packet of your of the Women's Studies minor particularly should

01:37:40.820 - 01:37:49.760

be advertised in our program. Just as we should be able to advertise to you, our minor in Human Development and

01:37:49.760 - 01:37:55.400

Family Studies, which is a nice match for Women's Studies. You know, we should be doing some of those kinds of things

01:37:55.400 - 01:38:11.640

which build across the University. I think too, that if we could get a bit of money for a bit of an aggressive colloquium, in which there would be at least 2 or 3

01:38:11.640 - 01:38:20.550

important women scholars brought to campus, not to talk about just Women's Studies, but also to talk about the kind

01:38:20.550 - 01:38:29.640

of contribution Women's Studies has made to their work. And they should be wined and dined, and the President

01:38:29.640 - 01:38:36.030

of the University and everybody should be helping make that a real success. They've done. They brought in

01:38:36.030 - 01:38:42.220

some international scholars that way. And there are some international women scholars that would be nice to bring in.

01:38:42.220 - 01:38:49.320

But I think that would be something that would be, a sort of a coming of age. [EW] Bring attention to the major?

01:38:49.320 - 01:38:57.230

[BS] And bring attention, bringing attention to the fact that it's a real part of many people's careers

01:38:57.230 - 01:39:05.940

and that even if they're not full-time in Women's Studies, that those insights from Women's Studies enlighten the work they're doing.

01:39:05.940 - 01:39:13.860

[EW] How has Women's Studies enlightened your work personally? [BS] It's just given me opportunity, particularly opportunity

01:39:13.860 - 01:39:22.080

to work in international work. I think that's where I found, I suddenly saw so many things, both from Home Economics and from

01:39:22.080 - 01:39:36.560

Women's Studies that just sort of fit together. And then, I got a chance to do a lot of those things. So it was, it got me started.

01:39:36.560 - 01:39:46.610

[EW] It got you started. Now, would you say that what you take away from the history and the creation of Women's Studies here is your opportunity,

01:39:46.610 - 01:39:54.390

or would you say there's-- [BS] I think it's also the fact that it just showed that women could with, on a shoestring, do something pretty neat.

01:39:54.390 - 01:40:02.000

I mean, the first class we taught was fabulous. It was just a fabulous class. I mean, it was hard.

01:40:02.000 - 01:40:07.790

You couldn't have maintained it forever because it was just too much energy going into it. But we just suddenly

01:40:07.790 - 01:40:20.340

saw the talent that was on our campus. And you know, that, It was a serendipitous experience. It was something where you got lots

01:40:20.340 - 01:40:34.270

more out of it than you thought you would. And, I think it, you know, I can't say that it was without troubles. There were troubles at different times and

01:40:34.270 - 01:40:40.440

different administrators handled in different ways. I know Marian Palley did some really wonderful work

01:40:40.440 - 01:40:47.370

in terms of the institutionalization of the department. And of course, I think it's partially because she's a political scientist and

01:40:47.370 - 01:40:55.800

really kind of understands how to put those pieces together. And, you know, different people at different times. I understand Jessica Schiffman

01:40:55.800 - 01:41:04.920

is retiring this year and she's been a real stalwart person through many different versions of Women's Studies along the way.

01:41:04.920 - 01:41:10.320

And I think it's those kind of, having had some of those people. Are you also going to be talking to Sue Cherrin?

01:41:10.320 - 01:41:19.980

I hope she's one of... Somebody in your class I hope is, because she's another person who I think could tell you more from the inside out

01:41:19.980 - 01:41:31.770

because she's put a lot of her career into Women's Studies. There was one interesting thing that happened fairly early on when,

01:41:31.770 - 01:41:41.940

between the Office of Women's Affairs and Women's Studies, they put together a book of readings. I don't know if you've run across that,

01:41:41.940 - 01:41:49.770

but I think you could find it. A very interesting book of readings. And for a lot of women on campus, it provided that instant publication they

01:41:49.770 - 01:42:01.260

needed as well as, it sort of contributed to the fact that here's a product that Women's Studies has contributed. And so I think those kinds of

01:42:01.260 - 01:42:07.020

things are valuable too. [EW] Because research is so limited. And that's one thing we've learned in our class.

01:42:07.020 - 01:42:17.080

One thing I've really taken away is that the research and publications that are available have been so widely dominated by men.

01:42:17.080 - 01:42:24.840

Do you think this lack of research and publication is really, has really held back the Women's Studies major

01:42:24.840 - 01:42:32.820

in terms of, you know, going forward? [BS] Well, or women in general, from going forward? [EW] Yes. [BS] Well, I have to admit that one bad mistake

01:42:32.820 - 01:42:42.330

I made in high school was I took personal typing instead of taking the full year of typing because I was very clear in my mind,

01:42:42.330 - 01:42:50.860

I did not want to be a secretary and I never would take, you know on a committee I would never be the secretary, because I couldn't type, right?

01:42:50.860 - 01:42:59.790

Well, I had no idea that in the end, what has happened in universities is that there are no secretaries. There still were

01:42:59.790 - 01:43:06.720

secretaries when I started out. And like, when I went to the Extension service, I had a third of a secretary helping me

01:43:06.720 - 01:43:14.280

with my program and typing for me and doing beautiful work. I did the drawings and she did the typing, and we had wonderful stuff that we handed out

01:43:14.280 - 01:43:23.400

to our adult learners. But very quickly it was clear to me that part of my, what was holding me back

01:43:23.400 - 01:43:32.040

was I didn't know how to type. And so I was hiring people to type for me and I was... You know, I tried to

01:43:32.040 - 01:43:44.490

have people on grants type for me. But I think for many people in my generation, if you didn't type, you really couldn't get a second draft done.

01:43:44.490 - 01:43:59.670

You think how many times you do a draft. Okay. So in a grant that I had in 1989 to 1990, that period, I had a fairly good-sized grant and we had our first computers that we bought

01:43:59.670 - 01:44:11.420

for that grant because we were going to do some teaching and we needed to have a computer to put some things up. We were trying to show some things in

01:44:11.420 - 01:44:22.770

adult education and out of that computer, we began to see that we could become the Gutenberg press. We could do this.

01:44:22.770 - 01:44:30.990

And it's really funny, you know, most, a lot of my publication has come since 1990 because that's when I've figured out

01:44:30.990 - 01:44:37.800

how to break through and to be able to type the number of grants it takes to have something that's publishable.

01:44:37.800 - 01:44:48.120

So I don't know what it has been for other people, but I would think that in many respects, women have not had the infrastructure to do

01:44:48.120 - 01:44:59.010

the kind of publishing that they need to do. And my good friend Sue Steinmetz, who was a great writer and editor, said that any paper that hadn't been

01:44:59.010 - 01:45:07.080

revised 11 times wasn't worth publishing. Well, you could never do that with a university secretary. If she typed it once,

01:45:07.080 - 01:45:13.630

she wasn't going to type it again. She'd say to you, "I already typed that paper, Dr. Settles." You know, well, yeah,

01:45:13.630 - 01:45:20.730

but now I've got my my comments back. I want to get it in the form to publish. So some of those things are sort of technical about

01:45:20.730 - 01:45:31.500

how things have happened, and certainly now it's, you do have to have the skills to be a writer as well as

01:45:31.500 - 01:45:39.530

the skills to do whatever kind of research your field has. And you have to be able to raise money to support that.

01:45:39.530 - 01:45:47.280

And I think some women have gone to, through programs where they didn't learn how to write grants. And we're trying to do

01:45:47.280 - 01:45:55.500

more of that with our undergraduates. We teach them some grant writing skills because most of the programs out in the public service and

01:45:55.500 - 01:46:05.340

family service agencies are contracted from State or other kinds of the foundations and you have to write a proposal.

01:46:05.340 - 01:46:14.340

You would have to evaluate your work and then that's how you move ahead. So for women to figure out how to get all those pieces

01:46:14.340 - 01:46:22.080

together and not to spend all of their time in teaching. That's, you have to really work hard to say to yourself,

01:46:22.080 - 01:46:31.110

"I'm more than a teacher." [EW] Right. [BS] And Women's Studies is really hard because it's such fun teaching, and oftentimes the jobs have

01:46:31.110 - 01:46:40.740

been put together course by course. And so you get a heavy load of teaching. As I said, I had 3 courses to begin with. I haven't had 3 courses in

01:46:40.740 - 01:46:51.210

many years. I have the 2-2. I don't very often have the 2-1, but I do often have the 2-2. And when I have money from the outside,

01:46:51.210 - 01:47:00.660

I can drive that down to a 1-1. I haven't done that for a while, but I did do that for a while. But it's that other thing of,

01:47:00.660 - 01:47:07.410

you know, do you want to buy yourself out of your teaching if that's what you love doing? You know, that's the other part

01:47:07.410 - 01:47:17.190

women have to sort of say is, "How do I have a balanced life?" But it is tough to find mentors. It's tough to find people that...

01:47:17.190 - 01:47:23.220

Well, for example, I try to teach my graduate students that they are supposed to read each other's work and be each other's

01:47:23.220 - 01:47:29.190

colleagues for the rest of their lives. That you cannot get ahead in this field if nobody will read your papers and tell

01:47:29.190 - 01:47:36.240

you what's wrong with them. And you need somebody who's a friend, who is not going to steal your work to do that. [EW] Right.

01:47:36.240 - 01:47:45.280

[BS] So, you know, some of those kinds of collegial ties are really important. [EW] In terms of Women's Studies, to wrap up, what are you most proud of?

01:47:47.870 - 01:47:58.980

[BS] The variety and number of people who have been involved in it. And the range of courses and topics that they've dealt with.

01:47:58.980 - 01:48:10.680

It's been a very inclusive program. And it's been a program that's been welcoming to new ideas. [EW] All right. Well, if you have anything to add?

01:48:10.680 - 01:48:21.870

[BS] Oh, I think I've talked quite long enough. (Laughs) [EW] I agree, but we're just going-- [BS] But I knew, once you got me started, I couldn't quit. [EW] Oh well, we really appreciate it and

01:48:21.870 - 01:48:29.790

it's been, you've been very helpful. I have one last thing we do need, obviously. [BS] I have to release it to you. [EW] You do, you have to release it to us.

01:48:29.790 - 01:48:37.710

[BS] Do you have to give me a dollar? [EW] (Laughs) Is that how that works? [BS] That's how I've done it. Sometimes we've given a dollar,

01:48:37.710 - 01:48:48.790

which then does let us feel free to actually... [Andy Settles] Is it off? [EW] It's actually still running. I can turn it off here, since we're all done.