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[Marie Laberge] This is Marie Laberge. I'm in the Women's Studies office with Monica Shafi on May 10, 2013 at 12:30. Thank you Monica. [Monica Shafi] Sure. My pleasure. [ML] So I want to get started by asking you to give us some of

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your own personal background. And sort of how you came to here came to be here at Delaware. [MS] Ok? And I guess you want to start real early looking at some of your questions. Sort of things about my childhood

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[ML} and overview and sort of how you got to when you arrived. [MS] Well as, you know was born in Germany. And one of your questions was what my recollections were growing up as a girl.

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And I don't think I was very much aware of gender. In fact, I remember discussing with my father when I was only ten years old,

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what my professional career would be and he was a lawyer, and so he encouraged me to follow his footsteps.

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So basically, and I think if he would have stayed alive, I would've become a lawyer. The influence would have been so strong.

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So there wasn't really a sense of that because I'm female, I have less opportunities. But I do remember growing up that

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and I come from a fairly small town near the Dutch border. That looking around, I didn't find the lives of

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the people I saw very interesting or very intriguing. So I think early on I developed a sense of, I don't want to live here.

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I always, I always say that I felt if I stayed in Germany. I just had to plug in the the dates for my resume.

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Everything else was sort of laid out for me? That wasn't wasn't exciting enough. And I also you are asked about early interests.

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I was very much from the beginning, I think, an avid reader and I was very curious. I remember in Germany

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you start Foreign Languages at age ten. And I couldn't wait to, couldn't wait for my first English lessons. So we had bought the books at

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the beginning of the summer and all summer long, I was practicing the first sentence which was "is this Mr. Smith?

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Yes, this is Mr. Smith." So I think the awareness of gender came in much later. That became sort of,

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I mean, these were sort of the, we are talking about the early 70s So clearly that was a feminist movement and gender issues were discussed.

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But also remember I studied literature, German literature, what was called gamma mystic, and also political sciences and sociology.

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And my major was German literature. And pretty much 80% of the students were women. But we had no women professors.

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That was very obvious. And also I was very interested in pursuing gender issues and writing my MA thesis about gender.

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And I recall going to the professor and there was really no background, there was no feminist literary criticism at that point in Germany at

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the University of Heidelberg. So, and I think so gender awareness started more around the time of my undergraduate

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and graduate years there in Germany. [ML]And how did you come to the United States. [MS] oh, that's a fairly long. sort of road.

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my husband is originally from Pakistan and he's a theoretical physicist. And in this, this is

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a very international field and you travel a lot. So after Germany, we spent three years in Geneva at Cern.

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And then there was a discussion, where do we go from there? And he had several offers in Europe and he felt that he wanted

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to come to the USA because his parents were here, his family was there and B, also because he felt that in terms of science,

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this was really the place to be. And I couldn't quite fathom what I would do with German literature, but so we came here and then I started

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my PhD at the University of Maryland because people were in those days. He was at NASA. And I met

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a woman professor who became my um, Dr. Mata, who guided my thesis. And I encountered feminist literary criticism.

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So my first encounter with the US, and from that point of view was academic and it was feminist and I absolutely loved it.

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And then Kaiser got a position here at the University of Delaware when I was still finishing my dissertation

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and I so writing it. And I taught for year at Swarthmore and then we were extremely fortunate that the position in the department

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of Foreign Languages and Literatures became available. So that's how I came to the United, to Delaware. [ML] And you came here in 1986?

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[MS] In 1986, Yes. I was hired as a, on a tenure track position for German literature in 1986.

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And I remember then the Helen Gouldner was dean in mine was the first position where they switch the

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four four teaching load to a three three teaching load, and I remember, you know, she was quite stern I remember. During my interview and she said,

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but you better do research because she thought it was a huge deal, you know, three three. [ML] So were you active with Women's Studies at that point?

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[MS[I was active. I was active in the sense that I wrote my dissertation on German women authors and my research focused on gender.

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In that sense, I was active and I think I taught the first, taught the first course in German that dealt with German women authors.

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So I continue that. [ML] And so given the nature of, the interdisciplinary nature of Women's Studies, how do you see it impacting your field, in terms of [MS] Do you mean German literature?

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How does it impact that? Well, I think the development is somewhat similar to what you see in British or

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an American literature that you know. Starting in the sixties and seventies, you have a very active feminist literary criticism,

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of course, influenced by the foundational texts that are written by American and French scholars. And so gender is,

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is clearly a field. And also what I should mention in this context, I believe in the early mids

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the mids I don't, but I think in the seventies, mid-seventies an organization was founded that was called Women in German.

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And that was the first group, you know, scholars, professors, graduate students, getting together and trying

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to create a network of women who want to do research on gender issues. And that became wildly successful.

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I mean, this is a huge organization. Now the Spaniards did something that our colleagues and Spanish did something similar.

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So early on already as a graduate student I would attend conferences. And that was an important network

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and I'm on the editorial board of the Journal. But I still go to these conferences and it's, it has a very different feel from other conferences.

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And there's a strong multigenerational network and a lot of mentoring. So that was an important

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support group for many of us. [ML] Do you think there was in those early years a backlash towards

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this effort as well, right? Because I know in history things were erratic in the early years in terms of.. [MS] I'm sure there was but you would have to you have to sort

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of specified for departments. And absolutely, of course, that was because it was radical. You challenged assumptions

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about the field, you brought in new topics, new forms of inquiry, new methodologies. Absolutely.

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Personally, I didn't really encounter much of it. And, you know, I sort of came to it more sort of almost ten years later

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when some of the really tough battles had already been fought. So in the eighties, Women's Studies we sort of had our minor for a while and

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sort of moving to the major [ML] Did that have an impact or we may have had the major in the nineteen nineties Did that have an impact in terms of your involvement or teaching or not?

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[MS] Not really. I mean, I knew of course that Women's Studies existed and I would go to some of the talks.

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And I did teach, I think one or two courses in English that were cross-listed with Women's Studies.

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But my teaching, because German is a fairly small field within the Department of Foreign, Languages and Literature.

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So they really needed me in German. So I didn't really teach much for Women's Studies because they, of course, have to be offered

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in English, those courses. So I wasn't really aware of all the details in the history of Women's Studies.

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[ML] And how do you, how did you get to the point where we are today? So you came in as chair, [MS] I believe 2005. I think I came in 2006. You were director in

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I was yeah, I was director. Yeah, that's correct. I was I was director for a year and then became I was

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interim director for a year and then the directorship. [ML] So how did that come about? [MS] It came through an email.

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I got an email from Gretchen Bauer, who was then the associate dean. And it cut, it came completely out of the blue,

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asking me whether I and I still have that email asking me whether I would consider, you know, serving as Interim Director. And it was sort of a short email and seeing,

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you know, you have to do about four or five things. You know, finish the APR right. The response to the APR review

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that seem to very doable. Remember discussing enough thought? Well, this is an interesting opportunity. I never thought of

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myself as an administrator. I never did anything to go into administration. So it can totally

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out of the blue, as I said, and it didn't seem overwhelming, so I accept it. [ML] And you are also as I recall you were also undergraduate coordinator.

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[MS] I was Chair of Graduate Studies for a year for I think for at least a year I was in both positions, if not two.

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[ML] So how did she convince you to go beyond that one year interim? [MS] You know, it was I really I remember when the email came, I knew Jessica. So I talked, I asked whether I could meet

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with Jessica to get a clearer picture. And I've always been extremely fond of Jessica and then I got to know the people.

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here and I thought, well, it's a small group. It's really a very coherent, These are wonderful people. I just enjoyed it.

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I mean, there was really a sense of, and I could see very clearly the Women's Studies at that point was,

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you know, was it a point where the goals for very clear, you know, the goals for you, you know, the program was de facto functioning as

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a department with terrific teaching going on and terrific research. It just needed to be recognized also by the administration

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that absolutely this unit deserves departmental status. So it was fun to work towards that goal. [ML] So we have done a number of changes since you became Chair

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[MS] Yes, yes. [ML] I just want to go over some of those One of the first ones is moving into these offices. So I don't remember if you were already

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[MS] Yes, I was already chair I was in the other building and it was not exactly a wonderful. [ML] That's right you had the toxic one. [MS] I had I had the one with the smell

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I always felt like I was walking on top of a swimming pool and indoor swimming pool for that, right? [ML] That's right, when we were in Ewing.

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Yeah. The chlorine So was there a lot of preparation in terms out of that, [MS] you know, it can be hard

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I felt that there was a lot of support within the unit. And also by that time, there were support within the administration,

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particularly Gretchen Bauer, who was instrumental in making sure that Women's Studies moved into this.

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And I think it, I've written a book on, on houses. So clearly this is material objects and these things interest me.

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And I do think that given the coherence of the group, there was a sort of good bond between that particular location,

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this house, and where we were it sort of fitted us well. I think that was the right place. And also that we got

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some input in terms of how to create the space. [ML] And if I tell you that this is the building

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that we were in when we first started out in the nineteen seventies. I find that very fascinating. [MS] I, I've heard that that it's a shame we don't have

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pictures. [ML] Yeah we only had two rooms [MS] you know, I remember women because my office, with foreign languages was for the longest time.

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in Smith Hall, and I remember Women's Studies was in Smith Hall, it always felt like it's almost in a closet. You know, Emily's office to me seemed like,

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you know, she's sort of this closet. So, you know, spatially, we have really moved around quite a bit. And I think for

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the moment this is a very good location. Clearly we hope to outgrow it, and then we'll take it to the next level. [ML] And that same year

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we also added the minor in sexualities and gender studies. Correct. [MS] Again, this was something that had been in the works for some time

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because there were student interest, there was faculty support. But this was really a minor in search of a home and

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it felt that we were the right place. And so I accepted it and thought we should do this because, you know, to me that is a strong

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thematic administrative link in my mind, that's a strong thematic and administrative link. You know, we ere clearly

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the right departmental home for that. [ML] Do you think that that's shifted our focus at all as a department. [MS] Well, we did change our name recently,

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but again, I think also the name change, it wasn't any radical move that may have been radical 10-15 years ago, I think now it's just

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acknowledging how the field has developed. And clearly it has moved from the women's feminist sort of focus on one gender,

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To a much larger, more complex picture. And where you look at gender across the board. And we have added, you know there's a lot of student interest.

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We have added some courses and I think there's a lot of potential for the SGST minor. [ML] We've also added, expanded our faculty lines.

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[MS] Yes. I mean, clearly this, this was a very important goal for Women's Studies to be able to

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hire and to get a tenure Not just to hire, but to get a tenure track line designated for Women's Studies.

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So that was again, took some, some negotiations with, with the administration. But I've always felt that

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the college has been very supportive of Women's Studies and is very well aware of how much the faculty accomplished and how much gets done

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with a, we're a small group. So it was important to, this was an important recognition I felt of the work

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of Women's Studies and we made a terrific hire. So of course, we hope to add more lines. And I've asked for that when

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I negotiated for my second term. But as you know, right now we're in a hiring freeze. So we'll have to be a bit patient.

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But I'm, I'm hopeful and optimistic that we'll get the next line. [ML] In terms of the expanded line. So Pascha Bueno-Hansen's hire was done intentionally to expand the areas

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that we cover as well, so part of our expansion to globalization. [MS] Absolutely. [ML] International context How do you think that's impacting how we do our

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[MS] I think most immediately what you see is, you know, we have had several, you know, revisions of the curricula.

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We are very much aware of the global context. We have created courses along these lines,

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we will create more courses. So I think clearly one major impact is in the curriculum. The other is as you know,

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Pascha is part this hemispheric dialogue group So there's a lot of interdisciplinary research work that's

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being done here on campus. So clearly it also has impact for research work. And then you know

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we have had Pascha give talks. So I do think it exposes the work all to the community. So I see multiple avenues where we

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see the benefits of this person, of this hire and also this particular focus [ML] and then we have the very big change, moving toward a department in 2010. [MS] That was the big goal. [ML] How did that come about.

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[MS] Well, I think this was a process that was started probably 15 years ago. This doesn't come about in one semester and in one academic year.

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I think my predecessor, simply the faculty sort of have worked towards it for a long time. When I came in 2005.

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One of my first duties that was in that little email. I needed to write the response to the APR review on the APR Committee

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also clearly stated that you know this program should really be department. We had some change in administrative leadership.

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I think that helped achieve this goal. So I see it more as a process that was happening over a long time and too long a time, quite frankly,

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which we should have been a department quite some time ago, but it sort of came to a number of things, came together and helped us achieve that.

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And then ultimately, if you recall, the actual process when you sort of push this through, you know, at the various committees was very

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small and the overwhelming majority of the Senate supported it. So it was the final, was then just more, a lot of

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sort of more or less a fait accompli [ML] So what impact do you think being a department has [MS] I think it's very important, even though we may have functioned

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like a department for a long time, there's a big difference in status whether you called it a program or a department,

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you are basically, I think one of the players that I think is very important. And of course with departmental status also come

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certain expectations that you function like a department in terms of, you know, your teaching, the research, you're more focused

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also perhaps on growth. So I think overall, this is a recognition of the tremendous work that has been done

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by the faculty over many, many years. And it gives us the status we quite frankly deserve. How do you see it?

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[ML] I think it's great. [MS] Yeah. I mean, it's really I think it's important, right? If you do all the work

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on all the fronts and you know, and again, if you look at the, the size of our operation or what we do, even think of the Guise conference

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we ran for many years. It needs to be recognized by the administration that we are a department. [ML] As well

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as the number of majors and minor we graduate. [MS] Absolutely the numbers of majors and minors. We teach about 3000 students

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per academic year. I mean, of course that's with all our cross-list. That's huge, right?

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It's, it's really, I mean, I've always been incredibly impressed by the work that goes on here in 34 West Delaware Avenue

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because we are small, but we achieve a lot. And I think it has to do also with the way Women's Studies developed,

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really with its 40 year history that was faculty driven, that was student-driven. I think it just creates a different buy-in. And it's really your enterprise as

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opposed being hired into position in anthropology or biology. I think it gives a different type of, it creates a different bond.

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It creates a different level of engagement, and of connection to it. [ML] And over the last two

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years we also changed our name. What impact do you think that's going to have. [MS] You know, actually that name change sort of happened.

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while I was on sabbatical, but was very happy to see it and apparently was not much of a discussion.

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It recognizes where the field is. It recognizes what we're doing. So I see it not as in anyway, tremendously innovative,

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let alone revolutionary move, but basically acknowledging what has happened in the field and what has happened in our work.

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And it's, you know, it's much more inclusive and that's the way it ought to be. [ML] We also have over the last couple of years created

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the domestic violence prevention and services concentration. [MS] Yes. [ML] Why is that important? [MS] I think it's hugely important.

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It's important. First of all, domestic violence is horrendous social problem. That is,

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despite all the tension that has been painted very prevalent. Whoops, see how this plays out. So it's very prevalent, be prominent.

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It cuts through all social strata, classes, institutions. Right now we have the scandals in the military.

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So clearly it's, it's, it's a problem that has very, has, has great impact for the American society and globally.

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Of course, worldwide, that's number one. Number two, the program allows us to both combine and teach our undergraduates

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about the topic of violence to teach them and educate them in the academic discourse, understanding roots of violence

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and understanding its ramifications. But it also has a practical aspect because we train them to become advocates for survivors

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So this really, you're the only one in the country to my knowledge, and I'm pretty sure that's correct.

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You're the only one in the country who have, who have this link between the academics and that the practical, it speaks directly to the posture prominence.

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So we are absolutely following sort of the vision that the university has laid out for educating our students.

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Heading a service component, creating opportunities in the community that may translate then also into jobs later on.

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So I see, and I do see oh, also I think that's an growth area for us potentially because it also connects now too, the conference we are planning to host in

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2014 honoring Vice President Joe Biden's legacy as the one who was instrumental in creating

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the Violence Against Women Act, the VAWA Act, 20 years ago. So this is a very, very important area of

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our work. [ML] In terms of where you think we're going what do you think is coming up in terms of sort of the future of Women's Studies?

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Women and gender studies in the next 5-10 years [MS] Well, that's a very difficult question, right? Asking to foresee the future.

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So I would like to scale that question back and sort of take it more in, really sort of apply to our work.

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I think what I see as, I mean, gender cuts across all strata of cuts across society like race. So pretty much any area look at,

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it's, it's it's right there. I do think that for our work, the domestic violence, that DV work is going to

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have a lot of potential and could translate into multiple different avenues. I'm hoping to grow the program so that we're able to offer more internships.

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So that is clearly an area where I see a lot of growth. My own research focus currently is on the implications of the changing nature

00:25:16.070 - 00:25:26.270

of work and work and the neoliberal economy. And what this does to gender or to people who, you know, does to the workforce

00:25:26.270 - 00:25:34.700

and how gender comes to play there. So that would be something where I would perhaps a venture to make some predictions on

00:25:34.700 - 00:25:42.590

and that the pictures just going to get much more complex. But to predict the whole field, I'm not sure I have that

00:25:42.590 - 00:25:52.790

the knowledge or the authority to do so. How do you see it? [ML] Well, I think that sort of the significance in terms of the impact

00:25:52.790 - 00:26:03.410

we have on our students and what they take from it. And that of course, [MS] I thought your question. [ML] Well just in terms of how we are sort of having impacts here at the university having this you'd ever yeah, absolutely.

00:26:03.410 - 00:26:11.150

[MS[ I thought your question was where is the field going so that I would not I that's that's the beauty of our profession that I really do

00:26:11.150 - 00:26:22.820

think you can make a difference in, in, in teaching at a fundamental level. I think awareness of issues people have not thought about before because

00:26:22.820 - 00:26:31.810

they seem so obvious. And wherever you look, I mean, you have this new book by Sheryl Sandberg Lean In which is,

00:26:31.810 - 00:26:39.170

I think of a problematic text. And it clearly brings to the forefront how important gender is and here in this particular

00:26:39.170 - 00:26:48.230

were related to work and women's career patterns. But yeah. [ML] so what do you think still needs to be

00:26:48.230 - 00:27:00.680

addressed in terms of our work in Woman and Gender Studies. [MS] You mean specifically within the department, within the UD or do you mean in general?

00:27:00.680 - 00:27:12.380

[ML] I would pick any one of those [MS] I think within the department, I'd like to see the opportunity to be able to grow the faculty,

00:27:12.380 - 00:27:23.780

to hire more faculty into tenure track positions. That would be clearly one of my top priorities and would

00:27:23.780 - 00:27:33.950

like to see growing the DV program, growing the SGST So as you see a very pragmatic, very hopefully achievable goals

00:27:33.950 - 00:27:44.360

within the next three years. And along with that is, you know, growing the minor growing the major, keeping our, you know,

00:27:44.360 - 00:27:57.490

keeping our numbers high, [ML] What do you think has been the most significant contribution of Women's Studies to the University of Delaware [MS] the most significant over the course of the 40 years.

00:27:57.490 - 00:28:05.650

You think in general, I do think of very basic to the awareness of gender. The awareness of gender, what I mean by that,

00:28:05.650 - 00:28:15.480

that we have to look at people's identity configuration in order to understand how it impacts pretty much every single field you

00:28:15.480 - 00:28:26.230

touch from the sciences, from medicine, from education. Gender cuts across, as I said earlier, cuts across all classes, all issues.

00:28:26.230 - 00:28:35.240

It's over the lifespan, whether you look at, you know, how we raise our children and I think the work of women

00:28:35.240 - 00:28:43.430

studies both within our both for our students but also for the community at large, is to begin talking.

00:28:43.430 - 00:28:53.570

If you go back to 40 years to begin talking about issues that, about these issues and to address them and to bring awareness

00:28:53.570 - 00:29:01.550

to how we operate and how we construct society and on what other, on which basis? And what are the prejudices or

00:29:01.550 - 00:29:10.940

the assumptions for these institutional and in these institutional configurations. So I would really see it in very broad terms.

00:29:10.940 - 00:29:18.170

And then of course, you can scale back and look at specific areas. But the awareness of gender and how absolutely

00:29:18.170 - 00:29:30.710

crucial it is to anybody's life, male or female. [ML] So is there anything that we haven't talked about that you want to make sure to have on the historical record?

00:29:30.710 - 00:29:36.270

[MS] On the historical record? Let me, you know, I looked through the historical record and each time I read it, I can think of this is really excellent

00:29:36.270 - 00:29:45.200

This is, this is really a success story. No I think for me it has been a really a great honor and a great privilege to be able

00:29:45.200 - 00:29:52.100

to chair the department. And as you know, this is my my second term and I'm very happy to

00:29:52.100 - 00:30:00.350

see how much has been accomplished, how much the faculty has accomplished. Everybody contributes tremendously to it. So it's, for me it has

00:30:00.350 - 00:30:10.760

been really enormously satisfying. Marie. And I feel like I've learned so much both, you know, not in learn so much.

00:30:10.760 - 00:30:19.850

I've grown, I think a lot as a person and learned a lot from everybody. I've, I've, I've I'm I'm interacting with and sort of it's been as I said earlier,

00:30:19.850 - 00:30:29.370

I never saw myself as an administrator, so I really enjoy, I'm enjoying it very much. It's been a great ride and a great honor.

00:30:31.060 - 00:30:41.200

[ML] Well we appreciate having you. [MS] So I don't think I wasn't, you know, I came in fairly late So I don't think I can really speak to the, to the early years.

00:30:41.200 - 00:30:48.110

I always thought it's just an impressive how much people have done, how much they have accomplished. You know, everybody has been

00:30:48.110 - 00:30:59.270

absolutely crucial to the success. It's really a group effort. That's the way I see it in many ways, a model of how one can become

00:30:59.270 - 00:31:09.780

successful in non-hierarchical ways. feminist ways. [ML] On that note