00:00:02.750 - 00:00:18.490

Barbara Beel: Testing, one, two, three, three. Five , four. Oh do you have a watch I can borrow? Barbara Beel: I am sorry Male voice: Yes Barbara Beel: Five, four, three, two, one.

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Good morning, everybody. I'm Barbara Beel and this is the WKEN open mic program. Today our guest is Congressman Tom Carper

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Welcome to the program. Congressman Tom Carper: Good morning, nice to be back. Barbara Beel: You haven't been here for awhile. Barbara Beel: What two months?

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Tom Carper: I haven't been here for Tom Carper: years. Well, at least since last year. Barbara Beel: That's true. Congratulations on your recent marriage. Tom Carper: Oh thank you very much. Thank you.

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Tom Carper: It's fun. We're Tom Carper: mighty happy. Barbara Beel: Good. Tom Carper: Mighty happy. Barbara Beel: You started out today,

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Barbara Beel: this is a taped program, for those of you who were not aware of it. Barbara Beel: in one of the middle schools. Barbara Beel: What we've been doing?

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Tom Carper: I've been invited by Tom Carper: some of the teachers from Tom Carper: the Dover Central Middle School to Tom Carper: to come by and really to have participated in

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Tom Carper: assembly with the seventh graders there. Tom Carper: And a couple of hundred Tom Carper: of them showed up in the auditorium. Tom Carper: And we had what is,

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Tom Carper: I guess what I would describe for lack of Tom Carper: better term, is just a miniature town meeting. Tom Carper: And I suppose you could Tom Carper: say with miniature people.

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Tom Carper: But people with some big ideas Tom Carper: and people some really good questions. Tom Carper: And we talked about a whole broad range Tom Carper: of issues. It included

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Tom Carper: environmental issues and a whole host of Tom Carper: other issues. And just a real good dialogue. Tom Carper: I'm always surprised Tom Carper: when I go to a, particularly

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Tom Carper: to a middle school, Tom Carper: I find that there's a willingness on Tom Carper: the part of the students to open up, to say Tom Carper: whatever is on their mind to be real,

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Tom Carper: real candid and not be at all inhibited. Tom Carper: And if you go into a high school Tom Carper: and you're talking to juniors or seniors, Tom Carper: there's a real concern

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Tom Carper: about peer pressure and, Tom Carper: and not wanting to look Tom Carper: uncool in front of Tom Carper: the front of their classmates.

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Tom Carper: But boy, seventh graders. Tom Carper: They were ready with Tom Carper: their questions. Had them written down in Tom Carper: some cases and just went right at it.

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Tom Carper: Had a good exchange. Barbara Beel: Did you handle it well? Tom Carper: Well I Tom Carper: got out of there alive and

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Tom Carper: they seem to have enjoyed it. Tom Carper: I think one of Tom Carper: the messages I try to convey to Tom Carper: kids at a school,

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Tom Carper: whether it's a middle school Tom Carper: or high school or college. Tom Carper: One of the things I like to convey Tom Carper: is how easy it is to get involved in,

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Tom Carper: in government in this state. Tom Carper: I had an opportunity to run Tom Carper: at the age of 29, Tom Carper: real old person at that time,

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Tom Carper: still not too old, Tom Carper: had an opportunity to run when Tom Carper: I certainly didn't come from a famous family. Tom Carper: There aren't many Carpers in the state

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Tom Carper: of Delaware. There weren't Tom Carper: many then. There aren't that many more now. Tom Carper: They, I don't have a famous family. Tom Carper: We don't have a lot of money.

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Tom Carper: And that basically got elected on Tom Carper: a shoestring and reelected Tom Carper: a couple of times that way. Tom Carper: So the message I tried to get

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across to the kids is you have to be old. Tom Carper: You don't have to be wealthy, or Tom Carper: famous in order to, to, Tom Carper: to be entrusted with

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Tom Carper: a substantial responsibility Tom Carper: by the people of our state. Tom Carper: I also like to talk to Tom Carper: them about the importance of voting,

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Tom Carper: whether they're desire to be Tom Carper: Republicans or Democrats or Tom Carper: Independents or anything else. Tom Carper: And how their one vote, particularly

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Tom Carper: in a small state like Delaware, Tom Carper: can make a real difference. Tom Carper: And we saw it in 1984 with Tom Carper: the election of our Lieutenant Governor

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Tom Carper: by just a couple of hundred votes. Tom Carper: And we've seen some, Tom Carper: some other close races here in this state. Tom Carper: In fact, in you right here in Kent County,

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Tom Carper: we've seen some House races for Tom Carper: each state House of Representatives Tom Carper: decided by as few as 10 or 15 votes. Tom Carper: And that's, so we're talking

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Tom Carper: about those kinds of close races. Tom Carper: You know, the one vote Tom Carper: can really make a difference. Tom Carper: And I think that the kids,

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Tom Carper: I'm still young enough, I Tom Carper: suppose. That the kids, I can relate to them. Tom Carper: And they can relate a little Tom Carper: bit to me and we have fun.

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Tom Carper: And hopefully they got Tom Carper: a little something out of it too. Barbara Beel: After that, you attended Barbara Beel: a forum at Delaware State College.

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Barbara Beel: I believe it was sponsored by Barbara Beel: the University of Delaware. Barbara Beel: Tell us about that. Tom Carper: It was a gathering of

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Tom Carper: Government Finance Officers. When Tom Carper: I was State Treasurer number of years ago, Tom Carper: I helped co-found a group Tom Carper: of Government Finance Officers in Delaware.

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Tom Carper: There's a national organization Tom Carper: called Government Finance Officers. Tom Carper: And we thought it might make some sense Tom Carper: to have an association

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Tom Carper: here in Delaware for people who work Tom Carper: in finance at the state and the local level. Tom Carper: County governments, Tom Carper: cities and like Dover and Wilmington,

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Tom Carper: and as well as the state government. Tom Carper: Exchange ideas and information Tom Carper: and just talk Tom Carper: to one another and to learn from one another.

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Tom Carper: To have programs from Tom Carper: time to time that were educational, Tom Carper: informative and help us do our jobs better, Tom Carper: maybe save the taxpayers a few bucks as well.

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Tom Carper: I was, and now I am wearing another hat, Tom Carper: I'm no longer State Treasurer but in Congress. Tom Carper: And I was invited by the Tom Carper: the Delaware chapter of

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Tom Carper: the Government Finance Officers to Tom Carper: help them put together a program Tom Carper: for Delaware's Government Tom Carper: Finance Officers. It basically says,

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Tom Carper: here's what's going to be Tom Carper: happening in federal spending. Tom Carper: How that's going to affect Tom Carper: the state of Delaware and some

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Tom Carper: of our local governments Tom Carper: in next couple of years. Tom Carper: And also some impact Tom Carper: of the tax reform bill.

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Tom Carper: What it's all about now that Tom Carper: might play out here in Delaware. Tom Carper: That's what we got into. Do you want into some specifics? Tom Carper: I'd be happy to

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Tom Carper: try to provide them. Barbara Beel: Please. Tom Carper: Okay. As most Tom Carper: most of our listeners know, we have a,

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Tom Carper: still have enormous federal budget deficits. Tom Carper: And we'd hope that they'd be Tom Carper: down under $200 billion this year. Tom Carper: As it turns out,

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Tom Carper: it looks like they're going to Tom Carper: exceed $200 billion. Tom Carper: The Congress passed, Tom Carper: I voted for it last month, a plan to say

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Tom Carper: we want to eliminate the deficits over Tom Carper: the next five years. And to basically Tom Carper: do it in five, Tom Carper: I won't call it five easy pieces,

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Tom Carper: but five tough steps. Tom Carper: But basically eliminating 1/5th Tom Carper: of the deficit each year. Tom Carper: Beginning actually part of this year.

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Tom Carper: And then in full, full force in Tom Carper: 1987, the next fiscal year. Tom Carper: We basically say, we Tom Carper: want the Congress and the President to adopt

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Tom Carper: a plan of Tom Carper: spending cuts and revenue increases, Tom Carper: probably some combination of that Tom Carper: in order to eliminate the deficits.

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Tom Carper: If we don't, Tom Carper: the thing that's going to happen is Tom Carper: that our work will be Tom Carper: done automatically for us.

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Tom Carper: And it'll be done automatically Tom Carper: for us because across Tom Carper: the board cuts for Tom Carper: roughly 5% in 1987

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Tom Carper: will be applied to most federal programs, Tom Carper: except for Social Security, Tom Carper: except for interest that Tom Carper: we pay on our national debt.

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Tom Carper: And except for a handful of Tom Carper: programs that are for very, Tom Carper: very poor people and those comprise in Tom Carper: the aggregate about 5% of our budget.

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Tom Carper: Everything else would be subject to, Tom Carper: for the most part, to these cuts. Tom Carper: And the cuts again, Tom Carper: are going to be in

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Tom Carper: the neighborhood of about 5%. Tom Carper: By doing that, by imposing Tom Carper: those across-the-board cuts, Tom Carper: we're going to bring

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Tom Carper: the deficits down to about a Tom Carper: $144 billion in 1987, Tom Carper: which is the target for that year. Tom Carper: And the next step

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Tom Carper: is to find out what do we do for 1988? Tom Carper: The goal is to reduce the deficits by another Tom Carper: roughly 30 to $40 billion. Tom Carper: And if, again

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Tom Carper: the Congress and the President don't agree on Tom Carper: a plan to do that, automatically Tom Carper: before we get into fiscal year 1988. Tom Carper: Another set of across-the-board cuts

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Tom Carper: will be imposed on Tom Carper: a majority of our federal programs Tom Carper: in order to further reduce the deficits. Tom Carper: And finally, after five years of that,

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Tom Carper: the idea is to Tom Carper: to be free and clear the deficits. Tom Carper: What all this means for Tom Carper: Delaware is that we as individuals,

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Tom Carper: people who participate in Tom Carper: one federal program or another who will Tom Carper: benefit from one federal program or another Tom Carper: are probably going to feel a bit of pain.

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Tom Carper: We're going to talk about Tom Carper: providing no pay increases Tom Carper: or probably no increases Tom Carper: in retirement for federal employees.

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Tom Carper: No Congressman will get a pay increase. Tom Carper:No members of our staff Tom Carper: will get a pay increase. Tom Carper: We're talking about applying the cuts

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Tom Carper: to defense spending as well as Tom Carper: to non-defense spending and basically as much Tom Carper: of cutting as much in Tom Carper: defenses as in non-defense spending.

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Tom Carper: The Tom Carper: The state of Delaware Tom Carper: can expect, Tom Carper: I think in

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Tom Carper: the current fiscal year, current year, Tom Carper: to realize that reductions in Tom Carper: Federal funding by Tom Carper: a couple of million dollars,

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Tom Carper: not an enormous amount of money, in fact, Tom Carper: it's not going to create much of Tom Carper: a stir at all. The next fiscal year, Tom Carper: the year beginning federal fiscal year,

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Tom Carper: which starts October 1st. Tom Carper: We're talking about a reduction in Tom Carper: monies to Tom Carper: the state government here.

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Tom Carper: Federal funds, reduction Tom Carper: and probably in the neighborhood of Tom Carper: at least 10, maybe as much as $20 million. Tom Carper: And when that happens, the state's budget is,

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Tom Carper: I guess set by this time, Tom Carper: close to $1 billion. Tom Carper: And maybe 10 or 20 Tom Carper: million doesn't sound like much,

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Tom Carper: but it really is. It's Tom Carper: a substantial amount of change. Tom Carper: And so what happens Tom Carper: is that the impact of the Federal cutbacks,

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Tom Carper: we'll again, will begun Tom Carper: being felt at the level of Tom Carper: state government. Barbara Beel: I'm kind of at a loss at

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Barbara Beel: how the Congress is going to Barbara Beel: to make cuts to balance the budget. Barbara Beel: What are you going to cut out? Tom Carper: Well, a year, about a half a year ago.

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Tom Carper: In the House of Representatives, Tom Carper: I supported a plan to basically say, Tom Carper: let's, for example, one problem to Tom Carper: cut out is Federal revenue sharing

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Tom Carper: to local governments. Tom Carper: We, in the 1960s, Tom Carper: late sixties, early seventies, Tom Carper: our President was Richard Nixon.

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Tom Carper: He proposed that Tom Carper: we have a program of Federal revenue sharing. Tom Carper: The ideas the Federal government Tom Carper: has all this money.

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Tom Carper: Why don't we share some with Tom Carper: state and local governments? Tom Carper: Some of which are having Tom Carper: a tough time raising money.

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Tom Carper: In those times, we had Tom Carper: federal deficits, but they were pretty small. Tom Carper: Now the Federal government Tom Carper: each year is borrowing literally

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Tom Carper: $200 billion a year just to pay our bills. Tom Carper: Does it make a lot of Tom Carper: sense for us to borrow Tom Carper: even more money in order to

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Tom Carper: turn around and give it to local governments, Tom Carper: many of whom are running surpluses? Tom Carper: And I can't really Tom Carper: see the rationale for doing that.

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Tom Carper: So we proposed to, for example, Tom Carper: to end funding Tom Carper: for the program of Federal revenue sharing. Tom Carper: The number of other problems we

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Tom Carper: basically said we're going to Tom Carper: freeze spending in those. Tom Carper: Much as we said, we're going to freeze Tom Carper: spending here in Delaware a couple of

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Tom Carper: years ago when we were running Tom Carper: into difficult financial times. Tom Carper: Revenues here we're not growing. Tom Carper: And we said, we want to

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Tom Carper: just hold the line on spending Tom Carper: for a while until revenues began Tom Carper: growing again and then we can Tom Carper: again start to increase spending.

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Tom Carper: We froze salaries, I was Tom Carper: State Treasurer and we froze salaries Tom Carper: for that year. Tom Carper: And all of us bore a little bit of the pain.

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Tom Carper: Eventually the economy recovered a Tom Carper: bit revenues group and were able to Tom Carper: provide some increase Tom Carper: in funding and in services.

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Tom Carper: I think we really have to do Tom Carper: the same thing at the Federal level. Tom Carper: Provide literally increases Tom Carper: for almost nothing.

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Tom Carper: I would make maybe the Tom Carper: one exception being for Tom Carper: Social Security recipients who are at or Tom Carper: below the poverty level. For

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Tom Carper: very poor elderly people, Tom Carper: I think we should try to Tom Carper: give them their cost of living increase. Tom Carper: For the most part.

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Tom Carper: Everything else. Let's just hold Tom Carper: the line. That way, Tom Carper: no one says, you're picking on me. Tom Carper: to the benefit of someone else.

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Tom Carper: We in Congress Tom Carper: by freezing Tom Carper: our own salaries for another year, Tom Carper: we set up

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Tom Carper: at least a little bit of an example. Tom Carper: And while we do that by Tom Carper: holding the line on spending, Tom Carper: revenues do increase.

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Tom Carper: They grow as the economy grows, Tom Carper: and eventually the deficit Tom Carper: will be whittled down. Tom Carper: That's the way we proposed to do it.

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Tom Carper: Unfortunately now the deficits Tom Carper: are so large that, Tom Carper: that a freeze, while Tom Carper: eventually getting us to

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Tom Carper: a balanced budget, a freeze can Tom Carper: take a longer time Tom Carper: than even we might want to put up with. Tom Carper: So we may have to start considering some cuts.

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Tom Carper: And I think the cuts, for Tom Carper: the most part have to be applied evenly. Tom Carper: We spend about 30 percent of our money on Tom Carper: defense spending and we spend

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Tom Carper: maybe 45 percent of Tom Carper: our money on entitlement programs. Tom Carper: Those are problems that role entitled Tom Carper: to because we're old enough

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Tom Carper: to get Social Security, Tom Carper: are old enough to get Tom Carper: Medicare or we're old enough or poor Tom Carper: enough to qualify for food stamps,

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Tom Carper: or aid to Tom Carper: families with dependent children. Tom Carper: Those are programs that, in school when we Tom Carper: qualify for guaranteed student loan

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Tom Carper: or are entitled to a farmer, Tom Carper: may be entitled to some of Tom Carper: the farm support programs. Tom Carper: Those are all entitled programs.

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Tom Carper: In the aggregate, they make up about 45 percent Tom Carper: of the budget, about Tom Carper: 45 cents out of every dollar. Tom Carper: And I think we have to

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Tom Carper: exercise some restraint there too, Tom Carper: because that's a big part of the budget. Tom Carper: The other ways we spend about Tom Carper: another 10 percent just

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Tom Carper: to pay interest on the debt. Tom Carper: And then the other 15 percent Tom Carper: is for the whole rest of the budget. Tom Carper: Everything else from education

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Tom Carper: to transportation to NASA, Tom Carper: whole nine yards. FBI, Tom Carper: CIA. Everything else is in that 15 percent. Tom Carper: And what we've been trying to

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Tom Carper: do is to squeeze Tom Carper: that 15 percent part of Tom Carper: the pie in order to reduce the spending. Tom Carper: And we could eliminate that completely.

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Tom Carper: And we'd still have budget deficit. Tom Carper: So I think to concentrate on more than Tom Carper: just that 15 percent part of Tom Carper: the pie and include

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Tom Carper: some restraint on defense spending, Tom Carper: some restraint on Tom Carper: on the entitlement programs. Tom Carper: There are some weapon systems that

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Tom Carper: we may not be able to afford. Tom Carper: We're not able to Tom Carper: afford as much money as we would Tom Carper: like on transportation problems

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Tom Carper: either on the non-defense side. Tom Carper: Given a time like this Tom Carper: when you're asking people to take Tom Carper:cuts, or programs to take cuts.

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Tom Carper: I think to the extent that Tom Carper: we can make the cuts, Tom Carper: it's pretty much uniform so that Tom Carper: everybody takes maybe a little bit of a hit.

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Tom Carper: Nobody has to take too much. Tom Carper: And as long as everybody's Tom Carper: taking some of the medicine, Tom Carper: there's a more of a willingness to,

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Tom Carper: share the sacrifice. Tom Carper: I think this sacrifice has to be shared Tom Carper: rather than single out. Tom Carper: Like just to put it on the backs of a few.

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Barbara Beel: We're talking today with Barbara Beel: Congressman Tom Carper. Barbara Beel: I guess what I meant when I said I was Barbara Beel: a bit confused about how it would be done...

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Barbara Beel: Let me put it another way as Barbara Beel: can you all do that? Barbara Beel: Or are we going Barbara Beel: to see a lot of people saying, well,

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Barbara Beel: no, you're not going to do that to Barbara Beel: my constituents. After Barbara Beel: all, it's an election year. Barbara Beel: Do you expect a battle like that?

00:14:08.420 - 00:14:14.100

Tom Carper: A year, Tom Carper: almost about nine months ago we went Tom Carper: through a similar debate Tom Carper: in the House of Representatives.

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Tom Carper: There are about fifty six Tom Carper: of us who supported a plan, Tom Carper: which basically said, we're going Tom Carper: to eliminate the deficits

00:14:22.370 - 00:14:28.170

Tom Carper: over the next for or five years. Tom Carper: We're going to do it primarily on Tom Carper: the spending side by Tom Carper: freezing spending in some cases,

00:14:28.170 - 00:14:37.190

Tom Carper: cutting some spending in a couple of Tom Carper: cases, eliminating programs completely. Tom Carper: We're going to raise a little bit of revenues too, Tom Carper: either through some taxes or user fees.

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Tom Carper: Not stipulating just Tom Carper: how that would be done. Tom Carper: But for the most part, we eliminate Tom Carper: the deficit is not from any

00:14:41.540 - 00:14:47.570

Tom Carper: new revenues, but for spending. Tom Carper: Only about fifty six people Tom Carper: supported that particular plan. Tom Carper: Although most people in the House

00:14:47.570 - 00:14:53.630

privately acknowledged it was fair, Tom Carper: it was balanced and Tom Carper: it would get the job done. Tom Carper: The reason why they were

00:14:53.630 - 00:15:03.210

Tom Carper: reluctant to disappoint it is because Tom Carper: political consequences of facing Tom Carper: the electorate and having voted Tom Carper: for those kinds of measures.

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Tom Carper: I think the situation Tom Carper: this year is all the Tom Carper: worse. It's all the worse. Tom Carper: And a lot of people who did not vote for

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Tom Carper: that particular proposal have Tom Carper: now said in retrospect, Tom Carper: if we had voted for that plan, Tom Carper: we would not have had to get into

00:15:18.380 - 00:15:25.880

Tom Carper: this Gramm–Rudman nonsense. Tom Carper: They we are talking about where we run Tom Carper: government, sort of an autopilot. Tom Carper: And so I think that might be

00:15:25.880 - 00:15:32.630

Tom Carper: a little more support for a plan, Tom Carper: a balanced, fair, across Tom Carper: the board plan to ask for Tom Carper: sharing of sacrifice on

00:15:32.630 - 00:15:37.940

Tom Carper: the spending side and a Tom Carper: modest amount of new revenues. Tom Carper: I think that kind of plan Tom Carper: will get some some additional support.

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Tom Carper: Those of us who fought for it before Tom Carper: fully intend to pursue it again. Tom Carper: and I'm hopeful that we'll Tom Carper: have a bit more support.

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Tom Carper: Ironically. Tom Carper: Ironically, even though Tom Carper: only fifty six members of the House Tom Carper: voted for that plan last spring,

00:15:51.720 - 00:15:58.210

Tom Carper: and it was defeated. Tom Carper: The Senate, the House Tom Carper: ultimately adopted a different budget plan. Tom Carper: The Senate adopted a different budget plan.

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Tom Carper: But when the Senate and the House Tom Carper: tried to work out a compromise, Tom Carper: the compromise that they came up Tom Carper: with and went to the President

00:16:03.230 - 00:16:10.980

Tom Carper: with was the plan that the Tom Carper: fifty six of us had initially supported. Tom Carper: The President and the Speaker shot it Tom Carper: down because it didn't,

00:16:10.980 - 00:16:16.750

Tom Carper: it froze defense spending Tom Carper: and spending for entitlement programs. Tom Carper: And we proposed to raise Tom Carper: a little bit new revenues.

00:16:16.750 - 00:16:23.480

Tom Carper: So they shot it down, killed the plan. Tom Carper: But had it not been for that, Tom Carper: we might have actually succeeded in the end Tom Carper: and have come up

00:16:23.480 - 00:16:28.760

Tom Carper: with a reasonably balanced plan Tom Carper: that would have eliminated Tom Carper: the deficits and saved us Tom Carper: from having to devise

00:16:28.760 - 00:16:34.460

Tom Carper: is Gramm-Rudman plan which really, Tom Carper: as it is otherwise supported, Tom Carper: with serious reservations. Tom Carper: I think it's in

00:16:34.460 - 00:16:40.970

Tom Carper: the final analysis an Tom Carper: abdication of Tom Carper: our responsibilities as legislators and Tom Carper: the President from doing

00:16:40.970 - 00:16:47.690

Tom Carper: the job that we were elected to do. Barbara Beel: I'm glad to hear you say that. Barbara Beel: I wholeheartedly agree Tom Carper: Good, good.

00:16:47.690 - 00:16:55.830

Barbara Beel: Are we going to have a tax increase? Tom Carper: I think people that are Tom Carper: in a better position than I am to Tom Carper: know about that, guys like Bob Dole,

00:16:55.830 - 00:17:00.080

Tom Carper: who formerly chaired Tom Carper: the tax raising committee, Tom Carper: the Finance Committee in the Senate. Tom Carper: He's now

00:17:00.080 - 00:17:06.740

Tom Carper: the Senate Majority Leader. Republican, Tom Carper: and he thinks we Tom Carper: are. Bob Packwood, who now Tom Carper: chairs the Senate Finance Committee.

00:17:06.740 - 00:17:12.860

Tom Carper: He apparently thinks that Tom Carper: they we're going to have one, Tom Carper: David Stockman, who was the Budget Director Tom Carper: for a number of years under President Reagan

00:17:12.860 - 00:17:19.860

Tom Carper: thinks we are going to. Tom Carper: The President's Tom Carper: former Economic Chairman of Tom Carper: Economic Advisers, Martin Feldstein

00:17:19.860 - 00:17:28.450

Tom Carper: thinks we should, and are going to. Barbara Beel: What do you think? Tom Carper: I think we'll probably have some bill Tom Carper: to increase revenues.

00:17:28.450 - 00:17:35.240

Tom Carper: I don't know that it's going to Tom Carper: be a tax increase. Tom Carper: It may be. It may be a plan to Tom Carper: simply impose a broad range of user fees.

00:17:35.240 - 00:17:45.810

Tom Carper: Now, for example, if if we go use a park, Tom Carper: Federal park or State park, Tom Carper: we pay a fee to get in the door, to get in Tom Carper: the gate into to use the park.

00:17:45.810 - 00:17:55.190

Tom Carper: There are, the President has Tom Carper: proposed user fees for the dredging of ports. Tom Carper: Deep ports that are used by ships that costs Tom Carper: money by the Corps of

00:17:55.190 - 00:18:02.360

Tom Carper: Engineers to do the dredging. Tom Carper: We're now starting to charge Tom Carper: a fee which is assessed on Tom Carper: the folks who are using the ports in

00:18:02.360 - 00:18:08.120

Tom Carper: order to come up with money to, Tom Carper: to dredge those ports. Tom Carper: So we don't simply have to Tom Carper: raise new revenues from

00:18:08.120 - 00:18:15.320

Tom Carper: raising tax. By raising taxes. Tom Carper: We can impose user fees, Tom Carper: say, to people who Tom Carper: are using a particularly facility,

00:18:15.320 - 00:18:25.230

Tom Carper: you're going to pay for it. Tom Carper: In a sense, our gasoline tax is a user fee. Tom Carper: Generally, if you're buying gasoline Tom Carper: for a car, or diesel fuel for a truck,

00:18:25.230 - 00:18:32.030

Tom Carper: you are doing it to drive on the road. Tom Carper: And the idea is you're paying the tax, Tom Carper: which is then for the most part used to Tom Carper: pave the roads and maintain the roads.

00:18:32.030 - 00:18:36.620

Tom Carper: That's a really a kind Tom Carper: of an indirect user fee. Tom Carper: There's plenty of precedence in Tom Carper: this country for

00:18:36.620 - 00:18:43.580

Tom Carper: those kinds of fees. Tom Carper: We hear a lot of people who say Tom Carper: that we should consider Tom Carper: some kind of value-added tax

00:18:43.580 - 00:18:49.970

Tom Carper: like they have in Europe and in Japan, Tom Carper: in other places. It's kind Tom Carper: of like a hidden sales tax. Tom Carper: We have really the

00:18:49.970 - 00:18:55.620

Tom Carper: same thing here in Delaware, Tom Carper: its call it gross receipts tax. Tom Carper: So it generates a lot of money. Tom Carper: People don't realize that they're

00:18:55.620 - 00:19:01.250

Tom Carper: paying that hidden sales tax, Tom Carper: but they are. Tom Carper: And there's a lot Tom Carper: of folks who propose it

00:19:01.250 - 00:19:09.840

Tom Carper: that we look at that seriously Tom Carper: at the national level. Tom Carper: There are some folks who've been able to Tom Carper: avoid paying income taxes because they cheat,

00:19:09.840 - 00:19:17.600

Tom Carper: they don't pay, they don't file Tom Carper: a tax return, they're dishonest crooks, Tom Carper: they're drug dealers or whatever, Tom Carper: so they are not paying

00:19:17.600 - 00:19:24.290

Tom Carper: any taxes or they certainly are not Tom Carper: reporting taxes or income, Tom Carper: They're realizing and Tom Carper: that kind of

00:19:24.290 - 00:19:30.980

Tom Carper: a value-added tax that Tom Carper: would be imposed not at the retail level, Tom Carper: but at the manufacturing level Tom Carper: and maybe the wholesale level

00:19:30.980 - 00:19:39.800

Tom Carper: that we would ensure that at least Tom Carper: everybody's paying some kind of taxes. Tom Carper: Currently. That's that's not the case. Tom Carper: That might lead us to our tax,

00:19:39.800 - 00:19:47.480

Tom Carper: the tax reform bill that passed in Tom Carper: the House of Representatives Tom Carper: in which I voted for. Tom Carper: Again, it was not

00:19:47.480 - 00:19:54.800

Tom Carper: a perfect tax reform measure. Tom Carper: But I think I sent out last year, Tom Carper: questionnaires to all the households Tom Carper: in the state of Delaware saying,

00:19:54.800 - 00:20:01.230

Tom Carper: what do you think we should be doing Tom Carper: on tax reform? About Tom Carper: twenty thousand households responded, Tom Carper: which is big response.

00:20:01.230 - 00:20:08.150

Tom Carper: And that response, for the most part, Tom Carper: people indicated Tom Carper: their primary concern was fairness. Tom Carper: Making sure that everybody

00:20:08.150 - 00:20:14.750

Tom Carper: is more or less paying Tom Carper: their fair share. and the perception Tom Carper: that is widely held is that that's not the case. Tom Carper: That there are some very wealthy individuals.

00:20:14.750 - 00:20:20.780

Tom Carper: There's Tom Carper: some pretty powerful corporations Tom Carper: out there that pay Tom Carper: relatively little Federal income taxes and

00:20:20.780 - 00:20:27.720

Tom Carper: there's a concern that Tom Carper: those people be asked Tom Carper: to pay their fair share. Tom Carper: And I think the bill that's passed the House

00:20:27.720 - 00:20:40.410

Tom Carper: will better ensure that Tom Carper: we've got a fairer tax system. Tom Carper: A couple of instances I might just cite. Tom Carper: For example, there is a minimum tax,

00:20:40.410 - 00:20:47.780

Tom Carper: that is included in the bill. Tom Carper: It says if you're a wealthy individual Tom Carper: or if you're a highly profitable corporation, Tom Carper: you're going to pay some, least a

00:20:47.780 - 00:20:54.980

Tom Carper: minimal amount of tax. I think that Tom Carper: tax is twenty to twenty five percent. Tom Carper: There's a provision in there that says, Tom Carper: if you're real poor family,

00:20:54.980 - 00:21:00.710

Tom Carper: lets say you are a family of Tom Carper: four and you're earning Tom Carper: under, I think, it's ten thousand dollars Tom Carper: a year. Trying to live on that,

00:21:00.710 - 00:21:07.090

Tom Carper: you're not going to pay Tom Carper: any federal income taxes. Tom Carper: You may have to pay state taxes, Tom Carper: you may have to pay a FICA tax for Social Security,

00:21:07.090 - 00:21:14.100

Tom Carper: but we're not going to make you pay Tom Carper: any federal income tax. Tom Carper: I think there's a good reason for that. Tom Carper: One, it's just a fairness issue. Two

00:21:14.100 - 00:21:22.430

Tom Carper: is if we do want people to work, Tom Carper: we do want people not to depend on welfare. Tom Carper: And if somebody tries to Tom Carper: get a job and is earning

00:21:22.430 - 00:21:29.660

Tom Carper: a bare living and Tom Carper: as soon as they start making a few bucks, Tom Carper: you immediately tax it. Tom Carper: There's less of an incentive for

00:21:29.660 - 00:21:35.240

Tom Carper: that person to go out and work. Tom Carper: There's more incentive for Tom Carper: them to be on the dole. Tom Carper: So I think that was a

00:21:35.240 - 00:21:41.360

Tom Carper: good provision that's in the bill. Tom Carper: We've tried to eliminate Tom Carper: a number of loopholes. Tom Carper: We tried to eliminate

00:21:41.360 - 00:21:48.670

Tom Carper: some tax shelters or provisions Tom Carper: that make it easy to set up Tom Carper: tax shelters so that we Tom Carper: hopefully will find people investing,

00:21:48.670 - 00:21:54.740

Tom Carper: not their money in abusive Tom Carper: tax shelters, but in Tom Carper: ways that make Tom Carper: some sense for economic

00:21:54.740 - 00:22:03.620

Tom Carper: development as a nation. Tom Carper: And finally, we've tried to lower Tom Carper: across the board the tax rates that we pay. Tom Carper: Whether you're at the top tax bracket

00:22:03.620 - 00:22:11.190

Tom Carper: now of 50 percent, Tom Carper: we're talking about lowing that rate to Tom Carper: somewhere in the high thirties, Tom Carper: maybe thirty six, thirty seven, thirty eight percent.

00:22:11.190 - 00:22:16.820

Tom Carper: And we're talking about lowering Tom Carper: tax rates all the Tom Carper: way up and down the income spectrum, Tom Carper: including for, for lower income people,

00:22:16.820 - 00:22:23.270

Tom Carper: as I said earlier, by Tom Carper: lowering the tax brackets, Tom Carper: we're also talking about Tom Carper: broadening the tax base,

00:22:23.270 - 00:22:31.010

Tom Carper: which means that more of the income that we Tom Carper: earn would be subject to Tom Carper: taxation. Right now we're able to Tom Carper: exclude from taxation

00:22:31.010 - 00:22:38.900

Tom Carper: certain parts of our income. Tom Carper: For example, Tom Carper: we can exclude from taxation Tom Carper: the money that our employers

00:22:38.900 - 00:22:47.420

Tom Carper: pay for our health insurance That's tax-free. Tom Carper: The President had proposed that Tom Carper: we tax a portion of that. Tom Carper: We elected to not do so.

00:22:47.420 - 00:22:56.180

Tom Carper: We elected to keep a tax-free. Tom Carper: There are other kinds of Tom Carper: taxable income or other kinds Tom Carper: of income that's currently tax exempt,

00:22:56.180 - 00:23:06.320

Tom Carper: that will be included as taxable income. Tom Carper: For example, unemployment compensation. Tom Carper: Let's say you're a family of four, Tom Carper: your only source of income

00:23:06.320 - 00:23:14.680

Tom Carper: is unemployment compensation. Tom Carper: You're not making enough money Tom Carper: really to get you above the poverty level. Tom Carper: As a result, under our new tax bill,

00:23:14.680 - 00:23:20.180

Tom Carper: they're not paying taxes. Tom Carper: If that's your only source of income. Tom Carper: Let's say you've got two wage Tom Carper: earners in the family though.

00:23:20.180 - 00:23:29.740

Tom Carper: One of them is earning thirty, thirty five thousand dollars Tom Carper: and the other person is is bringing home ten, Tom Carper: maybe ten thousand dollars Tom Carper: from unemployment compensation.

00:23:29.740 - 00:23:37.610

Tom Carper: In that case, Tom Carper: the families earning forty to Tom Carper: forty five thousand dollars a year. Tom Carper: In that case, the taxation

00:23:37.610 - 00:23:45.470

Tom Carper: of the unemployment compensation Tom Carper: would increase Tom Carper: the tax liability of that family. Tom Carper: So we tried to do it in a way

00:23:45.470 - 00:23:50.720

Tom Carper: so that if you're very poor, Tom Carper: if that's your only source of income, Tom Carper: you're not going to Tom Carper: be hit for it with a tax.

00:23:50.720 - 00:23:59.600

Tom Carper: On the other hand, if Tom Carper: you have other sources of income, Tom Carper: sometimes people do, then you're going to pay Tom Carper: some taxes on that unemployment compensation.

00:23:59.600 - 00:24:05.390

Tom Carper: So that's, the idea is, Tom Carper: is broadening the tax base. Tom Carper: The amount of the Tom Carper: kinds of income their taxable,

00:24:05.390 - 00:24:14.610

Tom Carper: but lowering will be taxing that at Tom Carper: a lower tax rate than is currently the case. Barbara Beel: We're running out of time. I did want to Barbara Beel: ask you about EPA's hearing

00:24:14.610 - 00:24:22.280

Barbara Beel: that scheduled for next week, I believe. Tom Carper: The 21st. Barbara Beel: What is that about? Tom Carper: We create an

00:24:22.280 - 00:24:28.130

Tom Carper: enormous amount of hazardous Tom Carper: materials in this country. Tom Carper: We've got to find something to do with them. Tom Carper: We can simply stick the stuff

00:24:28.130 - 00:24:35.540

Tom Carper: in the ground or landfill. Tom Carper: It creates water pollution problems, Tom Carper: groundwater pollution problem. Tom Carper: We find that communities and people

00:24:35.540 - 00:24:42.500

Tom Carper: in most any state would not like, Tom Carper: don't like the idea of Tom Carper: burning hazardous materials in Tom Carper: their backyard or literally

00:24:42.500 - 00:24:50.300

Tom Carper: in their communities, Tom Carper: putting out noxious fumes Tom Carper: and odors and that kind of thing. Tom Carper: We have the Environmental Protection Agency,

00:24:50.300 - 00:24:57.110

Tom Carper: which has for years been trumpeting Tom Carper: technology of burning Tom Carper: hazardous materials at sea, far out at sea. Tom Carper: A hundred and fifty miles out

00:24:57.110 - 00:25:06.030

Tom Carper: to sea, like they do over in Europe. Tom Carper: And doing so at high temperatures, Tom Carper: destroying 99.99% of the hazardous materials. Tom Carper: EPA thinks it's a good idea.

00:25:06.030 - 00:25:13.030

Tom Carper: They think that that's part Tom Carper: of our waste management, Tom Carper: the plan that something that we should do. Tom Carper: The EPA says, and I heartily agree,

00:25:13.030 - 00:25:20.400

Tom Carper: that the major thrust of Tom Carper: our controlling hazardous materials Tom Carper: should be to recycle them, Tom Carper: to make them less dangerous.

00:25:20.400 - 00:25:26.180

Tom Carper: So we can change them Tom Carper: from harmful components or Tom Carper: harmful compounds into Tom Carper: less hazardous ones that

00:25:26.180 - 00:25:31.510

Tom Carper: we can just dispose of. Tom Carper: That's where we should put our emphasis. Tom Carper: The EPA says that a part of Tom Carper: our program of

00:25:31.510 - 00:25:37.700

Tom Carper: controlling hazardous materials should Tom Carper: be burning them at sea. Tom Carper: They've been pushing hard to Tom Carper: do that for number of years now.

00:25:37.700 - 00:25:42.890

Tom Carper: For the last three years, Tom Carper: while I've been in Congress, Tom Carper: I and the other members of Tom Carper: our congressional delegation,

00:25:42.890 - 00:25:48.520

Tom Carper: Senators Biden and Roth Tom Carper: have been trying to pull the reins Tom Carper: in on EPA to say, Tom Carper: let's not rush headlong

00:25:48.520 - 00:25:54.210

Tom Carper: into this new technology. Tom Carper: Let's take our time. Tom Carper: Let's make sure that we're not going Tom Carper: to make a mistake and

00:25:54.210 - 00:26:01.340

Tom Carper: and screw up our oceans as we Tom Carper: have places like Tybouts Corner Tom Carper: Delaware, or Love Canal, Tom Carper: New York, Times Beach, Missouri.

00:26:01.340 - 00:26:08.030

Tom Carper: EPA has finally slowed down and they're Tom Carper: not pushing quite as Tom Carper: fast or furious Tom Carper: to get into the business.

00:26:08.030 - 00:26:14.940

Tom Carper: They've agreed to hold a series of Tom Carper: hearings up and down Tom Carper: the East Coast to Tom Carper: places to see how

00:26:14.940 - 00:26:23.780

Tom Carper: citizens feel about the idea. Tom Carper: They've agreed to hold extensive testing in Tom Carper: the ocean to see, with Tom Carper: monitored closely by EPA,

00:26:23.780 - 00:26:31.370

Tom Carper: to see what the impact is on the environment, Tom Carper: to make sure that that we're, we're not Tom Carper: making a big mistake here. Tom Carper: And then an analyzing

00:26:31.370 - 00:26:37.450

Tom Carper: that data Tom Carper: from those tests burns in and giving Tom Carper: us a chance to to hold hearings on it Tom Carper: and to decide how we want to proceed.

00:26:37.450 - 00:26:43.330

Tom Carper: That's a more thoughtful, cautious approach, Tom Carper: that kind of approach I Tom Carper: would have us take. Tom Carper: And apparently we are going to.

00:26:43.330 - 00:26:48.080

Barbara Beel: Unfortunately we Barbara Beel: are out of time. Tome Carper: You're kidding. Tom Carper: All right.

00:26:48.080 - 00:26:55.070

Tome Carper: Well, thanks for the chance to come by. Barbara Beel: Thank you. We've been Barbara Beel: talking today with Congressman Tom Carper. Barbara Beel: I'm Barbara Biel and this has been the

00:26:55.070 - 00:27:00.920

Barbara Beel: WKEN Open Mike program. Barbara Beel: But I do want to ask you Barbara Beel: a few other things to Barbara Beel: break down for stories, okay?

00:27:00.920 - 00:27:09.020

Tom Carper: Sure Barbara Beel: What do you think about the Farm Bill? Tome Carper: The one that we passed? Barbara Beel: Mmhmm Tome Carper: Are you talking

00:27:09.020 - 00:27:13.280

Tom Carper: about the one, the final Tom Carper: one that came out of conference? Barbara Beel: Yes. Tom Carper: Okay.

00:27:13.280 - 00:27:18.470

Tom Carper: Yeah. Tom Carper: You promise not to tell Bill Satterfield? Barbara Beel: No. Tom Carper: You gonna tell him?

00:27:18.470 - 00:27:26.450

Barbara Beel: Oh, yes. Tom Carper: You are going to tell him what I am saying. Tome Carper: In that case I'll tell you Tom Carper: the truth. I thought the bill...

00:27:26.450 - 00:27:35.810

Tom Carper: The Farm Bill that emerged Tom Carper: as a compromise between the House and Tom Carper: the Senate was in some respects better than Tom Carper: the bill originally passed by the House and

00:27:35.810 - 00:27:47.510

Tom Carper: better than the bill Tom Carper: originally passed by the Senate. Tom Carper: I've argued all along, Tom Carper: as the President, that... I'll say that again.

00:27:47.510 - 00:27:57.030

Tom Carper: No I wont. Barbara Biel: I'll just hold it. Tom Carper: Okay. Tom Carper: I've argued all along and agree with Tom Carper: the President that we have to

00:27:57.030 - 00:28:06.770

Tom Carper: bring our farm economy back closer to one in Tom Carper: which the laws of supply Tom Carper: and demand are working. Tom Carper: Right now in many places

00:28:06.770 - 00:28:10.950

Tom Carper: around the country, farmers Tom Carper: are just simply Tom Carper: producing for the government Tom Carper: to buy and not

00:28:10.950 - 00:28:16.630

Tom Carper: for people in the private sector, Tom Carper: for shoppers or consumers Tom Carper: to buy. Tom Carper: What we've tried to do is,

00:28:16.630 - 00:28:27.470

Tom Carper: is to maintain for Tom Carper: a year or two the level of target prices. Tom Carper: or loan price supports. Tom Carper: But then to begin gradually in

00:28:27.470 - 00:28:34.700

Tom Carper: the last three or Tom Carper: four years of this Farm Bill Tom Carper: to reduce target price supports, Tom Carper: to reduce the loan price

00:28:34.700 - 00:28:41.630

Tom Carper: supports so that they're coming Tom Carper: closer to what the market will dictate. Tom Carper: So that the laws of supply and Tom Carper: demand, the laws of

00:28:41.630 - 00:28:50.210

Tom Carper: competition become effective. Tom Carper: And Tom Carper: that's pretty much where we ended Tom Carper: up. We've I think made

00:28:50.210 - 00:28:56.750

Tom Carper: a significant break from Tom Carper: the policies of the last five years. Tom Carper: Hopefully, Tom Carper: I'd like to say that it's going to cost

00:28:56.750 - 00:29:02.720

Tom Carper: us a great deal less because Tom Carper: we've made these Tom Carper: changes. I don't think it is. Tom Carper: I think we're basically going to be

00:29:02.720 - 00:29:09.730

Tom Carper: paying as much for for Tom Carper: farm programs for the next five years Tom Carper: As we have for the past five. Tom Carper: That's the the bad news.

00:29:09.730 - 00:29:15.230

Tom Carper: The good news is that Tom Carper: had we done nothing. Tom Carper: The price or the farm programs Tom Carper: would have gone up even more.

00:29:15.230 - 00:29:23.450

Tom Carper: So I think we've made we've been able Tom Carper: to stop the hemorrhaging, if you will. Tom Carper: We haven't totally stop the bleeding, Tom Carper: but we stopped at the worst part of it.

00:29:23.450 - 00:29:33.710

Tom Carper: So if I were a teacher giving a grade, Tom Carper: I'd probably give us about maybe a B, a, Tom Carper: B or B minus on the Farm Bill. Tom Carper: Not as good as we could have done.

00:29:33.710 - 00:29:39.620

Tom Carper: We've got Delaware and Tom Carper: the Delmarva Peninsula. Tom Carper: We're a bit more fortunate here Tom Carper: than farmers are in some parts of

00:29:39.620 - 00:29:44.840

Tom Carper: the country. In some parts Tom Carper: of the country families and Tom Carper: their lives or just being destroyed. Tom Carper: And their communities and

00:29:44.840 - 00:29:52.490

Tom Carper: their economies in Iowa Tom Carper: and places in the Midwest in particular Tom Carper: are just being ravaged by the farm crisis. Tom Carper: And we've tried to be

00:29:52.490 - 00:29:59.890

Tom Carper: somewhat sensitive Tom Carper: to what's going on, particularly there, Tom Carper: and to maintain the safety net, Tom Carper: if you will, for the farmers.

00:29:59.890 - 00:30:06.590

Tom Carper: But to then very Tom Carper: gradually and gently try to ratchet Tom Carper: down the level of price supports and Tom Carper: target price supports and loan price supports.

00:30:06.590 - 00:30:14.910

Tom Carper: So that we get back to a more of Tom Carper: a market-based farm economy. Barbara Beel: Have you heard anything on Barbara Beel: the Coastal Zone Act

00:30:14.910 - 00:30:22.010

Barbara Beel: and the decision of the court? Tom Carper: No Barbara Beel: Because someone mentioned today Barbara Beel: that they thought that the Governor was

00:30:22.010 - 00:30:32.790

Barbara Beel: going to mention something Barbara Beel: and I didn't know if you had heard of it. Tom Carper: I've not been in real close contact for Tom Carper: much of the last two weeks. But no one has

00:30:32.860 - 00:30:41.190

Tom Carper: mentioned it since I've been back. Barbara Beel: Where are your priorities? Barbara Beel: Honeymooning or paying attention? Barbara Beel: One last question, Tom.

00:30:41.190 - 00:30:53.450

Barbara Beel:The House passed a bill which would require Barbara Beel: state and local governments to Barbara Beel: report sales of property, Barbara Beel: income taxes paid and

00:30:53.450 - 00:31:04.040

Barbara Beel: there's something else to it. Barbara Beel: At any rate for the states and Barbara Beel: local governments to report these to the IRS. Barbara Beel: With the understanding... you don't know

00:31:04.040 - 00:31:07.590

Barbara Beel: what I'm talking about, do you? Okay. Barbara Beel: Then let's just skip it.