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[Marie Laberge] All right, this is Marie Laberge. I'm with Kathy Turkel on June 18th, at 10AM in her office in Women's Studies. Thank you, Kathy. [Kathy Turkel] Well, you're welcome. Happy to do it.

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[ML] All right, I would like to start by getting some background information about you. Sort of where you grew up, and how you... what your early education issues were, and background

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in terms of education? [KT] Ok. Well, I grew up in Wilmington, Delaware, not far from here. I grew up in a, you know,

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my family was, I would say, transitional from working-class to middle-class. My parents had semi-professional jobs.

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I went to Catholic school for most of my under-- Well, let's see, I went to Catholic school until 10th grade and then

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I transferred to public school. I don't remember being a particularly academically-oriented kid. I've just sort of, you know, average

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in my interests. I didn't, you know, I don't remember having any thoughts at all that I would go to graduate school. Certainly nothing that would lead

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me to think that I would end up doing what I do. My parents were adamant that I will go to college.

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So that was always something that was that was part of my, in my thinking as I, as I grew up. But I went, as I said,

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I went to a Catholic school. It was very conservative. It was in the 1950s and 60s. So a lot of

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my formative years took place before the kinds of transitions that we saw in the 1960s. So very clear gender boundaries and rules.

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There was nothing in my early upbringing that would have led me to think that this is where I would be,

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you know, as I got older, [ML] Were you an only-child? [KT] No, I have a brother who's 6 years younger.

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So that's a lot of years when you're younger. And so we were... you know, we weren't hostile or strange to one another.

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But by the time he was born, I was in school. So we had very different paths in our childhood. [ML] Did you see a different gender experience between you and him? [KT] Very different because he was,

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first of all, very athletic. And that got a huge amount of praise and encouragement from my parents,

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most particularly from my father, who just thought this was the greatest thing ever. So yeah.

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So a lot of difference in that way. Lots of difference in rules. Now, I mean part of it is being a first-child versus being

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a second child and things loosen up. But there was certainly gender differences. He had a lot more freedom

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than I did growing up. [ML] And did you always assume you would come to UD for college or were you thinking of other places? [KT] You know, I didn't think a lot about it until

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it was time to make the decision, you know junior or senior year of high school. You know, no one in my family had ever gone to college,

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so there wasn't a lot of experience with different places where you might go. My parents always assumed I would go to UD. I did look at some other places,

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but it was always pretty well assumed that I would end up here. [ML] So coming into UD, what year did you enter? [KT] 1969. [ML] And what was your potential plan for what you were going to study?

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[KT] So different than what it ended up being. I came in as a History Education major and I that's what I thought my path would be.

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That I would teach high school History. And it... I don't think I was here a semester before that changed.

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So I eventually became a double major in Political Science and Art History and a minor in Philosophy. So very different from where

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I started or what I intended. [ML] And so, graduating with that major, did you have any idea what you wanted to do with it? [KT] I did, but I knew that in order to do that, I was going to have to go to graduate school.

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What I did, what I spent a lot of my time doing as an undergrad. And I'll thank Professor Hank Reynolds, who was just a fabulous teacher in

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Political Science and I did a lot of public opinion research, worked on big studies, had a real opportunity to do

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a lot of stuff with him when I was an undergrad. And that's what I thought I would do. But so I... my plan was to work

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for a year or two and go back to graduate school, which is what I did. But when I went back to graduate school, I didn't do anything having to do with

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public opinion research. [ML] So in those years, that was the period of increased activism of the Women's Movement. Were you engaged at all in that? Either on-campus or off-campus? [KT] Not at all.

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No. Let's see. I was somewhat involved. I mean, there were lots

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of movements going on. So certainly involved in the anti-war movement. And, you know,

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in small ways though. I was certainly not, you know, a central figure in those kinds of movements.

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But I certainly was interested and would go to rallies, protests, things like that. I mean, I was aware in terms

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of the larger culture that things were starting to, to change with regard to women's status. And the questions were being raised

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and people were being active. So I was aware of that, at that level, but I was not aware of anything going on at the level of the University. At all.

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[ML] So you entered here for your graduate work, Master's thesis, what do you remember? [KT] Okay, you're going to laugh. I have to think about this. I want to say 1976.

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I think that's correct. 1976. So it was a couple years, 3 years, 2 and a half something like that. It might have been

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the fall of 1975, into 1976. [ML] And that was in Public Affairs? [KT] It was in Political Science. [ML] Okay, and then your graduate degree also at UD? I mean your Ph.D., excuse me, was it also in Political Science?

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[KT] No, I have a... My Master's degree is in Political Science. And then I have a Ph.D. in Public... Urban Affairs and Public Policy

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with a focus on Policy and Planning Theory. So it was during that time when I was doing my Ph.D.

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that I started to get interested, particularly in Health Policy with a focus on women. And that was where

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my interest in women started. And I started to have some interaction with people who were in Women's Studies.

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They knew about my interest in women's health. They asked me to teach a course. And that was how I was

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first introduced to Women's Studies at UD. [ML] So that was in sort of the 1980s? When you were teaching a course? [KT] I think it probably was early 1980s

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that I first taught that course. [ML] And prior to that, had you been hearing, as a student, anything about the development of Women's Studies? [KT] You know, I really didn't. I didn't know

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anything about what was going on in Women's Studies. First of all, I was a graduate student, and it was an undergraduate program.

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So I really didn't know anything about it until I started having interactions with people who were

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teaching in Women's Studies. I learned more about it and got involved that way. [ML] And who do you think was most influential involved in that early year? [KT] I would say

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Maggie Andersen who was... I really can't remember the dates so well and I don't remember if she was... I don't remember

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the years that she was the Director, but she was certainly very involved right from the very beginning. And my husband,

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Gerry Turkel, teaches in the Sociology department. So Maggie was a good friend of ours and we, you know, would talk

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a lot about what she was doing in Women's Studies. She was interested in what I was doing. So she certainly was

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the person who was most instrumental in getting me involved. [ML] And what did that early involvement consist of? [KT] Well, initially teaching the health course,

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which at that point I believe it was, it might have been on an experimental basis. I don't think it was a standard course at that point.

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And then following that, they were looking to add people to the list of people who taught Intro to Women's Studies.

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And I'm trying to remember, I think it might have been Akasha Hull who was... It was either Akasha or Bonnie Scott.

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I don't remember who was the Director of Women's Studies at that time. There were a number of us who wanted to teach that course.

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They asked a few people to submit a syllabus. I did. They asked me to teach the course. And that was it. [ML] So I'm just curious, were you teaching courses in Political Science at the time?

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[KT] I have taught courses in Political Science, and I did so a few times as a graduate student. But I don't ever

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remember semester where I was doing both at the same time. [ML] I was just curious if you had any recollection of the differences or similarities between the Women's Studies courses at the time and Political Science?

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[KT] Gosh, I really hadn't even thought about that. [ML] I sort of find it fascinating to think about what it is that Women's Studies offers that maybe other departments don't? [KT] I can say this,

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that I liked teaching Women's Studies courses A lot more than I liked teaching the Political Science courses. Although I liked them fine.

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I taught Political Science as I was sort of leaving my Master's degree and going on to a Ph.D.

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So I had, you know, less information, less experience. But there was also a difference in the students,

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particularly in those years, the students who would take Women's Studies courses. You know, we've grown over the years so much,

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but the students were far more engaged in the early years than they are now. Now we have a minority of those students. But in the early years,

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almost everyone taking the course was really engaged in the material. And some were... They had a substantive interest in taking the course.

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It didn't fulfill any requirement. There wasn't a major. You know, there wasn't any other reason to take the course other than being interested.

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So, you had a, just a really engaged population. You know, Political Science was much more generalized. And also I wasn't

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as engaged in the material. In Political Science, it was more, "We have this course. Can you teach it?"

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You know, fine. I was happy to do it, but it's different than teaching in Women's Studies. [ML] Well, I would think the women's health course at that time would have been quite political.

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As the Women's Health movement was developing and really expanding. [KT] Right. Absolutely. And also those courses, like Women's Health and I'm trying to right now think of others, other than the Intro course,

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would get very small numbers of students. So it was a really engaged group of maybe 10 or 12 students in the health course. The course was years later,

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but the first time that I taught, the first few times I taught Motherhood in Culture and Politics would be maybe 12 or 15 students.

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But they would just eat up the material. They were just so engaged, so interested. So, really different that way. [ML] So as you are

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entering Women's Studies, you start out as a S-contract professor. How did you become Program Coordinator? [KT] Nancy Wingate, who had been the Program Coordinator, was leaving that position.

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I had been teaching on S-contract, as you were saying, and I decided to apply. So I did. And I got the job. [ML] And what did, in that moment of time, what did the Program Coordinator position consist of?

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[KT] Let's see, it was, you know, a full range of administrative responsibilities. Scheduling courses. Contacting people about teaching courses.

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Now, I went through a few different Directors of Women's Studies in those early years. But I worked, my memory is that I worked most closely

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as Program Coordinator with Sandra Harding. So Sandra would make a lot of the initial contacts with new faculty coming in,

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but I often did follow up. So I would call people, see if they were interested, get them on board,

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get a syllabus, get the course all organized. And so all the course scheduling, the nuts and bolts of it,

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was something that I did as Program Coordinator. The other thing that we did... There were several things. One was to start

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a series of dinner seminars. We still do these occasionally or we still do the kind of remnants of them, like in terms of having somebody

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come in for a lecture and a reception. But in those early days, we probably did 2 or 3 dinner seminars per semester.

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And they were huge. You'd have 40 or 50 or 60 people at a dinner and a talk. Some of the people were on campus,

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some of them were off-campus. But it was a big set of events and that was something that I coordinated,

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arranged, you know. People would decide who the speaker was going to be and then I would make all the arrangements with the speaker.

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I would make all the arrangements for dinner, make sure that we had a room, that we had a menu,

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that we knew who was coming. Arranged all of that. So that was... I mean, because we did them so regularly,

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that was a big part of what I did. The other thing that started then when I was Program Coordinator was the film series.

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So that was obviously just once a year, but it was something... [ML] The Women's History Month? [KT] The Women's History Month film series, absolutely. So that was something

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else that I was engaged in. And so those are the things that I remember most. It was a very busy job. I do remember that.

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And I didn't do any teaching while it was in that position. [ML] And the courses that you're talking about... Those were cross-listed courses, for the most part?

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[KT] They were cross-listed courses. I'm trying to... I mean, other than the person who was the Director,

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there were no people located in Women's Studies. So people taught for Women's Studies in one of two ways.

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It was either S-contracts, or it was cross-lists. So yes, that's a good question

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because that meant there was a lot of legwork that had to be done. There were no courses that you could assume would be taught.

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Every semester, you had to figure out which courses were going to be taught. We taught a lot of courses. I think there were probably

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about 30 courses per semester that were offered in that way. But every semester, you were sort of reinventing the wheel,

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trying to make sure that people were cross-listing those courses. [ML] And, our Intro to Women's Studies is usually S-contract. [KT] Yes. [ML] So who would be teaching those courses at that time? Graduate students?

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[KT] It was usually graduate students. Obviously, I was teaching. Sue Cherrin was teaching. It's really hard to remember, but yeah.

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[ML] I'm just wondering what pool you were drawing from to teach those? [KT] Well, there were 2 or 3 people from Sociology who were Sociology graduate students who used to teach.

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Now I'm going to forget their... I remember one person's first name was Karen... We could probably dig this up

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and figure out who these people are, but there were a number of those people. There was a woman named Sarah Vegas. I don't know if you've come across her?

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She was really involved for a long time and taught Intro before I did and I think she would continue to do so.

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She was a graduate student, I believe, at Johns Hopkins, but was very involved in Women's Studies here, and taught Intro.

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So there were many people. Every semester was a different group of people, particularly people who were doing

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graduate work and then moving on. [ML] You were Program Coordinator for about 2 years or so? [KT] Roughly 2 years.

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[ML] Is that when you then moved into teaching? [KT] Well, I had taught on S-contract before. And for one semester after I was in the Program Coordinator job,

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I went back to teaching on S-contract. And then right after that, they established the 2 half-time lines which amounted to 2 courses per semester.

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That was me and Sue Cherrin teaching those courses. [ML] Did you remember any struggle around getting the funding for those 2 half-times? Or what the debates were about that? [KT] I'm quite sure there was a struggle, but I don't remember the details of it.

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[ML] You weren't privvy to it? [KT] Right. But I'm sure there... I'm sure there was a struggle. Yeah.

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[ML] And so what did it mean for Women's Studies to have those 2 half-time positions? [KT] Well, I mean, it was a huge leap forward, because as we were saying before, it was, you know,

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people in other departments teaching obviously their interests, but also out of the goodness of their hearts. They had no obligation,

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and they didn't get anything for doing that. And then there were people teaching on on S-contract every semester. It was trying to

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make sure that you didn't lose any S-contracts, that you could fill those slots. So having the 2 half-time lines

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meant 4 courses a semester that were a given. Right. And they could the Intro courses, but they could be other things as well.

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So 8 courses a year that were already in place. Plus, we still had some S-contracts and the cross-lists.

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So it was sort of the beginning of the program becoming more established. [ML] And at that time, we only had the minor. [KT] Yes. [ML] So were you involved at all in the efforts to get a major?

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[KT] I was not directly involved in that. I mean, you know, I was aware of it and supportive of it. But it was... By that time

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Jessica Schiffman was the Program Coordinator. And I believe that Sandra Harding was the Director when that went through.

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I could be wrong about that, but I believe that's true. And it was the two of them who were really doing

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all of the legwork to get the major through. [ML] So how did we make this transition from 2 half-time to your position becoming full-time?

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[KT] (Laughs) We waited a long time. It was something that was fought for constantly. Yeah. I mean, every, every time

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a Director would argue for a budget, they would argue, not necessarily for Sue and I, but for more established positions.

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So it wasn't necessarily, you know, these two people should have full-time positions. I mean, there was lots

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of discussion about how that should take place, whether there should be tenure lines, whether there should be searches.

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But in the end, it was... Marian Palley was the Director and we had a supportive Dean and she was able to make the argument, yet again. But this time

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the argument though, was that these 2 half-time positions should be converted into full-time positions. And it happened.

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Why did it happen at that point in time? It's really, you know, it's really not entirely clear, but I mean, it is clear that the Dean was

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supportive of of having that happen and was willing to create the funds to make that happen. But it wasn't anything about

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that particular point in time, other than, I think, just kind of chipping away. Arguing, "you're in, you're out."

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that we need more established positions. [ML] I mean, according to the schedule, it took 14 years. [KT] Yes, it took 14 years. [ML] So what do you think the resistance to it was?

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Or that sort of-- [KT] You know, I mean, there were... This is my understanding and other people can confirm or deny this,

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I don't know. But I think that for a number of years there were people in administrative positions who simply did not

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think that Women's Studies should become any more established than it had been on the campus. You know, that it was a small program with

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a couple of half-time lines. They were absolutely adamant that it not become a department. And I think that there was a fear that

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if you created more established positions, you know, that was sort of just it was a slippery slope that would that would

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eventually become a department. And there was real, clear opposition to that. I'm not really clear about what

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the basis for the opposition was, but there was, there's no question that was there. I think that, you know, there were

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just a number of things that came together to just keep things from from moving forward. I mean, I think one of

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the things that's interesting, and I'm sure people who were Chairs over the years, or Directors over the years,

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could say more about this than I can. But we were, we here at the University of Delaware,

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were one of the first and most visible Women's Studies programs, when Women's Studies programs were starting to be established on

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campuses across the country. Lots of those programs went on to get bigger, to become departments, to have tenure lines, and we never did.

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And I think now it's sort of an interesting thing because other places are losing their programs and our program is

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continuing to grow and we're now at department. We now have at least one tenure line that was established specifically

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for Women's Studies. So now Women and Gender Studies. You know, it's an interesting history and there are lots of forces

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that came together to make that happen that way. [ML] So just to go back to one thing you just said, what made us so visible in those early years, do you think? [KT] You know,

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I think that the people who were involved, like Maggie Andersen, Akasha Hull, Bonnie Scott. They-- and I don't mean to leave people

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out because-- Barbara Gates, you know, there were lots of people who were sort of visible in their own disciplines and made establishing a Women's Studies program

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on the University of Delaware campus a real career priority for themselves. So they just did an enormous amount of work,

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not only on our campus, but with a broader Women's Studies community in campuses around the country that were establishing

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Women's Studies programs at the time.